Breaking Hemalurgic Spikes With Awakening?

[Trusk'our he/him]

Awakeners of the eighth Heightening and above can override other Awakener's Commands on Lifeless and inanimate objects. Does this mean that the possibility of overriding a Hemalurgic spike's Intent or Command (assuming it was created with one) is possible? For example, could the Awakener Command the spike to cease to grant powers to the Hemalurgist?

I imagine this wouldn't be easy, but it might be an interesting counter to Hemalurgists.

[alder24]

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Awakeners of the eighth Heightening and above can override other Awakener's Commands on Lifeless and inanimate objects. Does this mean that the possibility of overriding a Hemalurgic spike's Intent or Command (assuming it was created with one) is possible? For example, could the Awakener Command the spike to cease to grant powers to the Hemalurgist?

I imagine this wouldn't be easy, but it might be an interesting counter to Hemalurgists.

Hmm. No? By looking at WoBs it looks like Command Breaking would allow you to take control over Hemalurgist rather than break their spikes "Commands," like emotional Allomancy do. This WoB, not canon but:

Spoiler

Questioner

I have a question about emotional Allomancy and ways it can affect things that aren't from Scadrial. Specifically, I had a conversation about what it would do to Lifeless.

Brandon Sanderson

Emotional Allomancy would have a more compelling effect on Lifeless than on a regular person.

Questioner

Like breaking Lifeless with Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh... to break Lifeless. This... I'll RAFO that for now, just because the actual details there I'm gonna RAFO. So, you're really asking, "Can emotional Allomancy bring back the person behind the Lifeless," and that I'll have to RAFO.

Questioner

I meant like breaking the Command.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, breaking the command of a Lifeless. Ohhhh... I'll still RAFO that. *laughter and applause from audience* That's not nearly as difficult a question, but yeah... I would say if you're doing that in a roleplaying game, I would call that a viable use of the magic as currently understood. So you could make that happen and have my authority to do it.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

And then there is this WoB stating that Command Breaking is very similar to Unmaking (and you might find this WoB interesting because of the second question), which we don't know how it works, more like corruption and changing the spirit web itself, killing the being in process:

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

1. On a scale of 1 to 10, how similar are the processes of Command-Breaking a Lifeless and Unmaking?

2. Is there more going on behind the scenes when an Allomancer burns pewter? I suspect that the process triggers a "mind over matter" state, where the user's desires are made manifest, albeit in a limited way. If so, can a pewter burner alter their Physical appearance, similar to a Returned (provided they knew they could and had access to enough pewter)?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

1. 7 they are similar

2a. That is a valid theory. On the right track. 

2b. Possible in theory

FanX 2022 (Sept. 22, 2022)

 

But Realmatically speaking, what does Command Breaking do? With type 3 objects it kind of replaces the identity of their Awakener to yours (maybe?) allowing you to issue new Command. With Lifeless? They have their own identity, you can't replace that. I think it's more like a brute forcing through the wall that is a security phrase - which sounds similar to how emotional Allomancy affects Hemalurgic constructs, how Vin was "breaking through walls" in TenSoon, Koloss or Marsh's minds. HoA ch 65:

Quote

Marsh stumbled. Vin's Push lasted a brief moment, but during it she felt something. A wall, like she'd felt the first time she'd tried to control TenSoon or the first time she'd taken control of a group of koloss.
She Pushed, Pushed with everything she had. In a burst of power, she came close to seizing control of Marsh's body, but not close enough. The wall within his mind was too strong, and she only had one vial's worth of metal to use. The wall shoved her back. She cried out in frustration.

Of course, we've never seen Command Breaking being done from 1st person view so it's a bit speculative. However looking at that ability from this perspective, looking at other abilities similar to this, I think Command Breaking would allow you to take control over spiked people. Command Breaking doesn't replace Breaths, it gives them new Commands - but spikes had already done their "Command" part when they stole powers - that's when Intent and Command matters the most. You wouldn't change what's inside the spike, what a spike can give, and if it's already placed in a recipient, what it gives depends on what's inside and where it is placed - Intend has already done its job. With Awakened objects Intent and Command is constantly making the object do its job, that's why you can change it. Therefore it makes sense to me that Command Breaking would give you Hemalurgic control instead. 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Hmm. No? By looking at WoBs it looks like Command Breaking would allow you to take control over Hemalurgist rather than break their spikes "Commands," like emotional Allomancy do. This WoB, not canon but:

  Hide contents

Questioner

I have a question about emotional Allomancy and ways it can affect things that aren't from Scadrial. Specifically, I had a conversation about what it would do to Lifeless.

Brandon Sanderson

Emotional Allomancy would have a more compelling effect on Lifeless than on a regular person.

Questioner

Like breaking Lifeless with Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh... to break Lifeless. This... I'll RAFO that for now, just because the actual details there I'm gonna RAFO. So, you're really asking, "Can emotional Allomancy bring back the person behind the Lifeless," and that I'll have to RAFO.

Questioner

I meant like breaking the Command.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, breaking the command of a Lifeless. Ohhhh... I'll still RAFO that. *laughter and applause from audience* That's not nearly as difficult a question, but yeah... I would say if you're doing that in a roleplaying game, I would call that a viable use of the magic as currently understood. So you could make that happen and have my authority to do it.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

And then there is this WoB stating that Command Breaking is very similar to Unmaking (and you might find this WoB interesting because of the second question), which we don't know how it works, more like corruption and changing the spirit web itself, killing the being in process:

  Hide contents

Questioner (paraphrased)

1. On a scale of 1 to 10, how similar are the processes of Command-Breaking a Lifeless and Unmaking?

2. Is there more going on behind the scenes when an Allomancer burns pewter? I suspect that the process triggers a "mind over matter" state, where the user's desires are made manifest, albeit in a limited way. If so, can a pewter burner alter their Physical appearance, similar to a Returned (provided they knew they could and had access to enough pewter)?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

1. 7 they are similar

2a. That is a valid theory. On the right track. 

2b. Possible in theory

FanX 2022 (Sept. 22, 2022)

 

But Realmatically speaking, what does Command Breaking do? With type 3 objects it kind of replaces the identity of their Awakener to yours (maybe?) allowing you to issue new Command. With Lifeless? They have their own identity, you can't replace that. I think it's more like a brute forcing through the wall that is a security phrase - which sounds similar to how emotional Allomancy affects Hemalurgic constructs, how Vin was "breaking through walls" in TenSoon, Koloss or Marsh's minds. HoA ch 65:

Of course, we've never seen Command Breaking being done from 1st person view so it's a bit speculative. However looking at that ability from this perspective, looking at other abilities similar to this, I think Command Breaking would allow you to take control over spiked people. Command Breaking doesn't replace Breaths, it gives them new Commands - but spikes had already done their "Command" part when they stole powers - that's when Intent and Command matters the most. You wouldn't change what's inside the spike, what a spike can give, and if it's already placed in a recipient, what it gives depends on what's inside and where it is placed - Intend has already done its job. With Awakened objects Intent and Command is constantly making the object do its job, that's why you can change it. Therefore it makes sense to me that Command Breaking would give you Hemalurgic control instead. 

If type 3 command breaking messed with identity could you then harvest those breaths back for yourself and climb higher through heightenings that way?  

I'm not saying its possible as that would be a big thing that is hidden from us despite all of the work we saw go into gathering breaths in Warbreaker.  

But if you could break past the identity enough to tell an awakeners cloak to kill their owner instead of protect then why not steal breath from it?  

It could be that command breaking is simply so difficult even at 8th heightening that it takes an amount of time to accomplish it and it is far to dangerous to do in any meaningful way during a conflict.  But if an awakener dies with their awakened objects on them and you took those objects and could break past the deceased identity then perhaps those breaths don't have to be lost entirely forever.  

All of our POVs in Warbreaker are unfortunately from the persons understanding and the system is understood so little that it makes sense noone has spoken of this being a use.  Even the scholars not saying anything about it make sense because they don't say crap about awakening anyways trying to always keep back their little secrets from anyone else. 

So the lack of seeing it in the books doesn't make me think its impossible.  Heck after the first era of mistborn we thought it entirely impossible to burn a metalmind.  But identity proves us wrong in AoL.  So if command breaking does overwrite the identity of the object then perhaps type 3 objects can be harvested of their breaths in the right conditions.  

I don't believe we saw command breaking outside of trying to break the lifeless commands though did we?  It makes sense those POV didn't mention it because the lifeless can't be harvested for breath.  

[alder24]

58 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If type 3 command breaking messed with identity could you then harvest those breaths back for yourself and climb higher through heightenings that way?  

If you're changing the Identity then yes/maybe. If not, if it's like breaking through the Command and enforcing your own without changing the Identity, then no. The only mention of type 3 Command Breaking was in Ars Arcanum so it's hard to say anything about it. It can go either way. I think it should work the same for all types, thus if you don't change Lifeless Identity (that wouldn't make much sense) then you can't change type 3 object Identity as well - you're only breaking through it to change the Command, but the Identity remains the same.

Unkeyed Awakened objects would most likely be more susceptible to Command Breaking - but tbf that wouldn't be needed for type 2, just recall Breaths and Awaken again. 

58 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

But if you could break past the identity enough to tell an awakeners cloak to kill their owner instead of protect then why not steal breath from it?  

If Identity isn't changed, then you might be able to Command it "your Breath to your Awakener" or something like that - if the Awakener is touching it.

58 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

It could be that command breaking is simply so difficult even at 8th heightening that it takes an amount of time to accomplish it and it is far to dangerous to do in any meaningful way during a conflict. 

It's possible to Command Break without the 8th Heightening - Lightsong's priests had done that with Vasher's squirrel. However Command Breaking takes some time, even Susebron would need some time to Break a single object/Lifeless. I don't think it's a viable strategy during a fight. Warbreaker ch 58:

Quote

“The easiest. Barring that, we can chase them down and grab them one at a time, then break them and replace their Command phrases. But even if you had the Eighth Heightening to let you break Commands instinctively, changing so many would take weeks.”

ch 38:

Quote

“The person who broke into Mercystar’s palace used this as a distraction,” Lightsong said. “Do you know anything about breaking Lifeless, my dear?”
She shrugged.
“I didn’t either,” Lightsong said. “Not until I required my priests to break this one. Apparently, it requires weeks to take control of a Lifeless for which you do not have the right security phrases. I’m not even sure how the pro cess goes—has something to do with Breath and torture, apparently.”
“Torture?” she said. “Lifeless can’t feel.”
Lightsong shrugged. “Anyway, my servants broke this one for me. The stronger and more skilled the Awakener who created the Lifeless, the more difficult it is to break it.”
“That’s why we need to get the Commands from Allmother,” Blushweaver said. “If something were to happen to her, her ten thousand would become useless to us. It would take years to break that many Lifeless!”

ch 47:

Quote

The only mitigating factor was the God King. Apparently, with his powerful BioChroma, he could break Lifeless more quickly. Still, taking control of ten thousand would require weeks, even for the God King.

 

58 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Heck after the first era of mistborn we thought it entirely impossible to burn a metalmind.  But identity proves us wrong in AoL.

He? We've learnt it in the epilogue of TFE, and it was hinted earlier in the book.

58 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I don't believe we saw command breaking outside of trying to break the lifeless commands though did we?  It makes sense those POV didn't mention it because the lifeless can't be harvested for breath.  

We've never seen it. We only saw the results of it -  Vasher's squirrel and a few Lifeless city guards planted by Bluefingers (mentioned in annotations).

Edit: I think there is something to support that you can't change Identity with Command Breaking. Vasher couldn't retrieve Breaths from Vivenna's shawl and said only she can do this. Vasher, with 1000 Breaths, would be more than able to retrieve them on his own if needed, thus Command Breaking doesn't change Identity of type 3 objects, only pushes through it to change the Command. That makes more sense in my opinion. ch 43:

Quote

He set the shawl on the table beside her.
“You’re giving it back to me?” she asked.
He shrugged. “If there really is Breath stored in it, I can’t get to it. Only you can.”

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by alder24

[Quantus he/him]

What if we came at it from another direction:  Given how well Breaths adapt to whatever they are given to (even if they cannot be retrieved), I think it's entirely likely that Breaths could be use to ReCharge an existing Spike, on the theory that that it would take on the Tuning (Identity, effect, and otherwise) of the Spike's Investiture, just like with Compounding a pre-charged Metalmind with allomantic Investiture.   

Now, (big) IF you can do that, and you have enough realmic knowledge to craft a very specific Command one step to the left of the standard Gifting Command, maybe you could use the breath's sacrifice to Inject some minor modifications into the Spike's existing Investiture pattern?