Admiral Daal’s former Warship

[Nightstar The Bright]

What is the protocol on adding unnamed pages? Because I think Daal’s former warship deserves a page, it has a history a crew and a description. it also plays a role in TLM (very small but still).

If Susebron’s mother gets a page I think this warship should also get a page. What do you guys think?

[LadyLameness]

I would agree on this having a page. For the name I’m thinking simply ‘Admiral Daal’s ship’ or ‘Admiral Daal’s warship’?

For unnamed pages, there’s often quite a bit of discussion amongst staff to try and find something that is easiest to find - let me know if you have any suggestions and I can feed them back to the staff to discuss.

[Nightstar The Bright]

14 hours ago, LadyLameness said:

I would agree on this having a page. For the name I’m thinking simply ‘Admiral Daal’s ship’ or ‘Admiral Daal’s warship’?

 

This is a hard one, it’s his former ship, but yeah those names seem fine to me. ‘Daal’s former warship/ship’ or your suggestions.

[Nightstar The Bright]

On 12/9/2023 at 7:41 PM, LadyLameness said:

For unnamed pages, there’s often quite a bit of discussion amongst staff to try and find something that is easiest to find - let me know if you have any suggestions and I can feed them back to the staff to discuss.

I’m gonna wake this thread up again, have you guys settled on a name? Can I add a page called Admiral Daal’s ship?

[alder24]

18 minutes ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

I’m gonna wake this thread up again, have you guys settled on a name? Can I add a page called Admiral Daal’s ship?

Why not just "Malwiah warship"? Sure, it used to belong to Daal, but it no longer does - it wasn't even Daal's ship when it appeared in TLM. It wasn't the first time a Malwish warship arrived (ch 9) and it was easily recognized by Wax. While it's an assumption, it's fair to say that most Malwiah warships of this type would look more or less the same, thus we can just place them all on one page. 

[Nightstar The Bright]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Why not just "Malwiah warship"? Sure, it used to belong to Daal, but it no longer does - it wasn't even Daal's ship when it appeared in TLM. It wasn't the first time a Malwish warship arrived (ch 9) and it was easily recognized by Wax. While it's an assumption, it's fair to say that most Malwiah warships of this type would look more or less the same, thus we can just place them all on one page. 

Well, first of all, We don’t know for certain that this ship looks the same as a normal warship. Yes wax recognises it, but (looking at navies/air forces in our world) they likely have different classes/types of ships. Looking at our world, it’s easy to recognise a ship as a warship (they tend to share a couple of properties), but warships don’t always look alike (take for example a destroyer and an aircraft carrier, both are warships but they look nothing alike, while most people can easily recognise them as warships).

Yes most ships of that ‘type’ will probably look alike, but we don’t know what type it is, so we can’t make a page or sub section on a greater page about it. I also think that this ship is likely to be different enough from the regular warship that we couldn’t name the page ‘Malwish Warship’. It is after all a command ship, and one for Daal The Primary at that. The terms ‘warship’ or ‘aircraft’ are simply to diverse to name the page ‘Malwish Warship’. I believe we don’t have other examples of this ‘type’ of ship, the only other warship is the hunters ship, which is behind several decades of engineering and is from an entirely different nation, we also don’t know if it is the same type of warship.

I stick to my names of ‘Daal’s ship/warship’ (we’d have to choose between ship or warship) or Daal’s former ship/warship’ (same situation)

This does lead me to a project with greater ambition. An airship page, with different types (warship/ tradeship) from different nations (Hunters and Malwish). Sadly I don’t think we have enough information for a proper airship page. Then again, I might look into it. 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

but (looking at navies/air forces in our world) they likely have different classes/types of ships. 

Warship is a broad term, it includes every class of ship built for naval warfare. So calling it just a warship is a right thing to do, as we don't know its class - but it is still a warship. I really don't see your point here - we both recognize it as a warship.

1 hour ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

Well, first of all, We don’t know for certain that this ship looks the same as a normal warship

True, that's why I said is an assumption. 

1 hour ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

Yes most ships of that ‘type’ will probably look alike, but we don’t know what type it is

Yes, this type/class. We don't know what it is, but it's still a warship. That's why we can make a page for "Malwish warship" and in it just say "one unknown class of Malwish warship was a ship on which admiral Daal came to Elendel in the year xxx" or something like that. We don't need to describe every Malwish warship in general, as we don't know any of them, but just this one as one of Malwish warships. 

But we don't even know its name or its current captain, and calling it "admiral Daal's former warship" is just bad in my opinion. I would never think of searching it by this term. "Malwish warship" - much sooner, even if it's a very general term. ”Daal's warship” is still better but that's no longer its true ownership. But it still belongs to Malwish so going a step up in the “ownership ladder” feels right to me. 

Or make a page for all "Malwish/Scadrian airships" and in it make each ship have its own sub-section. But then again, how do you call this ship's sub-section? I would still call it just "Malwish warship" as this is the only one warship known to us currently. We can easily start describing it with "the only known Malwish warship..." It will be expanded in the future, adding more sub-sections when new warships will be introduced. We know 4 ships now (including the little ones") so there might be enough for this general page. 

What do you call Hunter's ship from BoM? Just a Hunter's ship. We have no problems with calling it generally like that, even if it's old and we don't know either its name or its class. 

I'm just not a fan of going overly detailed when we lack those details we need. Speaking in general is sometimes fine.

[LadyLameness]

The issue with ‘Malwish Airship’ is that it’s too generic. That could refer to any ship and if anything evokes a general page not a specific one. In cases where we don’t have a canonical name we want something that is specific to the situation at hand - no one is going to realistically search for ‘Admiral Daal’s warship’ or ‘Malwish airship’ but one of these is clear from the get go of what is being talked about. 
 

There’s been no issues raised with ‘Admiral Daal’s warship’ amongst the staff so this works for the title. Do note that because it is not an official title, ‘warship’ should not be capitalized in the page title.  
 

If/when we get an actual name, the page can always be moved to something canonical, but otherwise this works best with the information we currently have at the moment. 

Also apologies for the delay and thank you for poking me for an update. 

[Nightstar The Bright]

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

Warship is a broad term, it includes every class of ship built for naval warfare. So calling it just a warship is a right thing to do, as we don't know its class - but it is still a warship. I really don't see your point here - we both recognize it as a warship.

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, this type/class. We don't know what it is, but it's still a warship. That's why we can make a page for "Malwish warship" and in it just say "one unknown class of Malwish warship was a ship on which admiral Daal came to Elendel in the year xxx" or something like that. We don't need to describe every Malwish warship in general, as we don't know any of them, but just this one as one of Malwish warships. 

But we don't even know its name or its current captain, and calling it "admiral Daal's former warship" is just bad in my opinion. I would never think of searching it by this term. "Malwish warship" - much sooner, even if it's a very general term. ”Daal's warship” is still better but that's no longer its true ownership. But it still belongs to Malwish so going a step up in the “ownership ladder” feels right to me. 

Or make a page for all "Malwish/Scadrian airships" and in it make each ship have its own sub-section. But then again, how do you call this ship's sub-section? I would still call it just "Malwish warship" as this is the only one warship known to us currently. We can easily start describing it with "the only known Malwish warship..." It will be expanded in the future, adding more sub-sections when new warships will be introduced. We know 4 ships now (including the little ones") so there might be enough for this general page. 

What do you call Hunter's ship from BoM? Just a Hunter's ship. We have no problems with calling it generally like that, even if it's old and we don't know either its name or its class. 

I'm just not a fan of going overly detailed when we lack those details we need. Speaking in general is sometimes fine.

Oh lmao, I thought you wanted to make a page only for this ship called Malwish Warship. But you intend to make a broad Malwish Warship page with this ship inside of it. I think that’s a fine idea, although we don’t have that much information. I think we should definitely do this, but only after we have some more information. 

 

3 hours ago, LadyLameness said:

The issue with ‘Malwish Airship’ is that it’s too generic. That could refer to any ship and if anything evokes a general page not a specific one. In cases where we don’t have a canonical name we want something that is specific to the situation at hand - no one is going to realistically search for ‘Admiral Daal’s warship’ or ‘Malwish airship’ but one of these is clear from the get go of what is being talked about. 
 

There’s been no issues raised with ‘Admiral Daal’s warship’ amongst the staff so this works for the title. Do note that because it is not an official title, ‘warship’ should not be capitalized in the page title.  
 

If/when we get an actual name, the page can always be moved to something canonical, but otherwise this works best with the information we currently have at the moment. 

Also apologies for the delay and thank you for poking me for an update. 

I definitely agree with what you said here, but, like stated before, I also think it a good idea to make a general warship page once we have sufficient information. Anyway, if staff agrees I will begin making a page called Admiral Daal’s warship.

[LadyLameness]

I think a general page is a good idea at this point - we have three distinct crafts now, I think, between Daal’s and the two from Bands. Having a page that collects them and any other information that exists would be a good idea, agreed. 
 

Though if it is going to be a general page about the different crafts, ‘warship’ would not be the best wording as Allik’s small craft doesn’t appear to be one. Something more generalized like ‘’Malwish aircrafts’ would be better suited. 

[Nightstar The Bright]

Well personally I think ‘airships’ would work better then aircraft. This is due to how most people call them airships and while technically aircraft, most people don’t think of them that way. Also I think that the general page shouldn’t be called Malwish, let it just be airships or Southern Scadrian airships. I say this because we have and are going to have a lot of airships which aren’t Malwish, while it is useful to put these on the page.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

I say this because we have and are going to have a lot of airships which aren’t Malwish, while it is useful to put these on the page.

Why not just "Scadrian Airships" which allows it to cover for possible Basin Airships in Era 3?

I think the most searched term might just be "Airship" since that's the term from the book, so maybe a Keeper can set a redirect for whatever the final page name becomes.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Treamayne
Note/SPAG

[Starwatcher]

Cross-referencing this thread from a couple weeks ago on a general (Malwish|Southern Scadrian|Scadrian) air(ships|craft) page:

 

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Why not just "Scadrian Airships" which allows it to cover for possible Basin Airships in Era 3?

I think the most searched term might just be "Airship" since that's the term from the book, so maybe a Keeper can set a redirect for whatever the final page name becomes.

The problem I'll point out here is that "Scadrian" might still be too narrow, since the mechanics work elsewhere and could be adopted on other planets, while just "airship" is too broad, since it also sweeps up Surge-based aircraft like Fourth Bridge.

[LadyLameness]

12 hours ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

Well personally I think ‘airships’ would work better then aircraft

That sounds fine to me. 

7 hours ago, Starwatcher said:

problem I'll point out here is that "Scadrian" might still be too narrow, since the mechanics work elsewhere and could be adopted on other planets, while just "airship" is too broad, since it also sweeps up Surge-based aircraft like Fourth Bridge.

I think this might actually be going too broad at this point. There may end up being more divergence between how the technology’s work than is currently clear and it’ll be easier to combine things later once we have more information than separate them out. 

(Turns out you can’t edit in a quote easily to a existing post on mobile so I’m just putting this separately) 

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Why not just "Scadrian Airships" which allows it to cover for possible Basin Airships in Era 3?

 

If we don’t have other Scadrian Airship’s I don’t think we need to do this. Having something reflective of the information we currently have is going to be a better user experience than trying to predict what we may get in the future. Calling it Scadrian may also be confusing because it gives the impression that the page contains information for all of Scadrial and not just a single culture. I can imagine people getting confused and thinking there’s something missing. 

[lucami]

I actually really like the "Scadrian Airships" solution, Treamayne. It feels specific enough to capture the unique technology and culture behind these ships, while still leaving room for potential Basin innovations in Era 3.