Damascus metals and the Metallic Arts

[Trusk'our]

Damascus steel is pretty neat. It looks very pretty, and irl that's its primary purpose. But can it be used for more regarding the Metallic Arts?

I've made the hypothesis before that it's possible to use a Hemalurgic spike to hold multiple powers, perhaps even having a spike that contained two metals to hold even more so long as they're of the same Hemalurgic quadrant (such as H-steel/H-pewter). Damascus metal could make the latter more possible, allowing multiple metals to be woven together as one object while retaining their individual properties.

From their description, the Bands of Mourning seem to be a form of Damascus steel as well, having all sixteen Allomantic/Feruchemical metals blended into one Metalmind. It's possible that this was done instead of making sixteen separate Metalminds due to the interference they might have potentially caused to one another, meaning that Damascus metal may be useful for the creation of Unsealed Metalminds (and since the Malwish Consortium has the Bands now they may discover this property).

And what about aluminum? It can prevent an object from being Pushed or Pulled on Allomantically, so could a steel knife, sword, or other blade with layers of pure aluminum in it prevent those Invested manipulations while retaining their structural integrity from the steel?

[alder24]

12 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I've made the hypothesis before that it's possible to use a Hemalurgic spike to hold multiple powers, perhaps even having a spike that contained two metals to hold even more so long as they're of the same Hemalurgic quadrant (such as H-steel/H-pewter). Damascus metal could make the latter more possible, allowing multiple metals to be woven together as one object while retaining their individual properties.

I still disagree. It's the tip that rips and steals the spirit web. 

13 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

From their description, the Bands of Mourning seem to be a form of Damascus steel as well

No.

Melting several different types of metals into one piece isn't "Damascus metal". It's just melted metals. Damascus steel is defined by it's unique microscopic structure, not visible patterns (which is still steel). 

23 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

And what about aluminum? It can prevent an object from being Pushed or Pulled on Allomantically, so could a steel knife, sword, or other blade with layers of pure aluminum in it prevent those Invested manipulations while retaining their structural integrity from the steel?

No? Firstly, you would massively weaken the structural integrity of your wea[pn by doing that. It's better than pure aluminum, worse than steel. Secondly, it might generally work to resist investment, unless you're fighting with someone like Wax or Marsh, who can look closer and split steel lines and push on steel parts, not aluminum. It's possible that aluminum field effect will prevent even this form working, but it's hard to say, I personally would say if you look close enough, you can overcome it. It's really over complicated way of making an aluminum weapon, just use already practiced approach and use specific alloys of aluminum that works as weapons.

[Trusk'our]

18 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Melting several different types of metals into one piece isn't "Damascus metal". It's just melted metals. Damascus steel is defined by it's unique microscopic structure, not visible patterns (which is still steel). 

I was under the impression that Damascus steel was just layering multiple sheets of different metals together and forging them in such a way that you would get layers of different metals instead of getting a mix of all them together.

It seems that you know more on this topic than I do. Can you elaborate on what Damascus steel is and how it's microscopic structure is unique?

21 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I still disagree. It's the tip that rips and steals the spirit web. 

I disagree with this. It's the spike as a whole that takes from the Spiritweb, just like how objects are generally treated as whole selves rather than their separate components Realmatically speaking. That's why an object can't be half in and half out of a Speedbubble.

That means a spike that contained two or more Hemalurgically viable metals should be capable of targeting two or more Hemalurgic abilities/attributes, regardless of what the tip is made out of.

29 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No? Firstly, you would massively weaken the structural integrity of your wea[pn by doing that. It's better than pure aluminum, worse than steel. Secondly, it might generally work to resist investment, unless you're fighting with someone like Wax or Marsh, who can look closer and split steel lines and push on steel parts, not aluminum. It's possible that aluminum field effect will prevent even this form working, but it's hard to say, I personally would say if you look close enough, you can overcome it. It's really over complicated way of making an aluminum weapon, just use already practiced approach and use specific alloys of aluminum that works as weapons.

Fair enough conclusion. Perhaps coating a knife made of steel with a coating of aluminum would work better.

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I was under the impression that Damascus steel was just layering multiple sheets of different metals together and forging them in such a way that you would get layers of different metals instead of getting a mix of all them together.

It seems that you know more on this topic than I do. Can you elaborate on what Damascus steel is and how it's microscopic structure is unique?

I know almost nothing. People call Damascus steel everything that has nice patterns on it, but that's not real Damascus steel. Damascus steel was made by using a special steel which has a very high carbon steel content, which creates those patterns. But as I said, I know almost nothing. 

One of the modern ways to recreate Damascus steel is by wielding different sheets of metals together but this isn't real Damascus steel, it just looks like one.

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

It seems that you know more on this topic than I do. Can you elaborate on what Damascus steel is and how it's microscopic structure is unique?

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

I know almost nothing. People call Damascus steel everything that has nice patterns on it, but that's not real Damascus steel.

Right - because laymen don't realize there is a difference between "Damascus pattern" and "Damascus steel" - where a pattern is any two or more steel variants layered in a such a way as to produce patterns - however a Damascus steel is smelted and forged from hypereutectoid crucible steel. Links:

Damascus Steel

Wootz Steel

(Hypereutectoid) Crucible steel

Pattern Steel

Or, you could just watch a few episodes of "Forged in Fire" (any given episode probably has a 1 in 3 chance of features Damascus patterns) There are even episodes about specific techniques and/or patterns, like Canister, Bar, Ladder, Raindrop, etc.

4 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I disagree with this. It's the spike as a whole that takes from the Spiritweb, just like how objects are generally treated as whole selves rather than their separate components Realmatically speaking. That's why an object can't be half in and half out of a Speedbubble.

Whether the Spike is "one thing" or not - the different metals would likely need to be harvested from different bind points, so you still can't harvest two metals from one bind point (even if they share a quadrant). Also - more about alloys than pattern forging, but here's a WoB:

Spoiler

Rogaen

What would happen if a Feruchemist fills, for example, a tin metalmind then mixes it to make a pewter metalmind? Does the stored attribute change? Is the Investiture gone when you melt the metal? What if he just makes it into a tin metalmind again?

Brandon Sanderson

If you make it impure, you'll keep the investiture, but won't be able to get it out. If you make it back into the same thing, you'll be fine, and can access it normally. If you try to fill it, after changing the composition to make another viable metal, it will act a little like a computer hard drive with corrupted sectors. Some of it will work for the new investiture, but you won't be able to fill it nearly as full. (Depending on how full it was before you melted down.)

This holds for basic uses of the metallurgic arts. Once you start playing with some of the more advanced parts of the magic, you can achieve different results, which are currently RAFO.

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Trusk'our]

51 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Right - because layment don't realize there is a difference between "Damascus pattern" and "Damascus steel" - where a pattern is any two or more steel variants layered in a such a way as to produce patterns - however a Damascus steel is smelted and forged from hypereutectoid crucible steel. Links:

Damascus Steel

Wootz Steel

(Hypereutectoid) Crucible steel

Pattern Steel

Or, you could just watch a few episodes of "Forged in Fire" (any given episode probably has a 1 in 3 chance of features Damascus patterns) There are even episodes about specific techniques and/or patterns, like Canister, Bar, Ladder, Raindrop, etc.

Fascinating! Thanks!

54 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Whether the Spike is "one thing" or not - the different metals would likely need to be harvested from different bind points, so you still can't harvest two metals from one bind point (even if they share a quadrant).

Right; you can only harvest from one Bindpoint at a time, but you could just spike multiple Metalborn people with Blanked Identities.

 

57 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Also - more about alloys than pattern forging, but here's a WoB:

  Hide contents

Rogaen

What would happen if a Feruchemist fills, for example, a tin metalmind then mixes it to make a pewter metalmind? Does the stored attribute change? Is the Investiture gone when you melt the metal? What if he just makes it into a tin metalmind again?

Brandon Sanderson

If you make it impure, you'll keep the investiture, but won't be able to get it out. If you make it back into the same thing, you'll be fine, and can access it normally. If you try to fill it, after changing the composition to make another viable metal, it will act a little like a computer hard drive with corrupted sectors. Some of it will work for the new investiture, but you won't be able to fill it nearly as full. (Depending on how full it was before you melted down.)

This holds for basic uses of the metallurgic arts. Once you start playing with some of the more advanced parts of the magic, you can achieve different results, which are currently RAFO.

 

I was under talking about the idea of pattern welding multiple metals together while keeping their individual contents largely (or entirely) pure, meaning that you wouldn't have to worry about the Investiture being trapped inside unable to be accessed. 

This does make me wonder; what if you Invested a Hemalurgic spike to the brim, then alloyed it to make its Investiture inaccessible?

Would It still be able to rearrange the organs of its bearer to prevent death, but just not grant powers?

Would attribute spikes alloyed- such as charged Koloss spikes turned steel- simply be unable to transform their bearers?

Would such spikes still cause spiritual holes to be formed, even if they wouldn't grant actual power (maybe an evil Hemalurgist could use this to control people without needing to worry about giving them too much power to fight back)?

More questions about this than a I thought there would be.

 

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

This does make me wonder; what if you Invested a Hemalurgic spike to the brim, then alloyed it to make its Investiture inaccessible?

Would It still be able to rearrange the organs of its bearer to prevent death, but just not grant powers?

Would attribute spikes alloyed- such as charged Koloss spikes turned steel- simply be unable to transform their bearers?

Would such spikes still cause spiritual holes to be formed, even if they wouldn't grant actual power (maybe an evil Hemalurgist could use this to control people without needing to worry about giving them too much power to fight back)?

More questions about this than a I thought there would be.

WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

My question was about Hemalurgy. There was a disagreement on the last Shardcast. When spiking a Mistborn to charge a Hemalurgic spike, does it matter how the Mistborn is killed or is what power is stolen based only on the metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So you want to place the spike in a specific place.

Questioner

In the donor. In the recipient, not the donor.

Brandon Sanderson

In the recipient. And you want to use the specific metal and so basically if you aren't precise about how you spike, you risk taking the wrong thing within the same family. Some of those, that's not as big a deal, but for some it is kind of a big deal. And so you want to be very precise, you'll get something, but if you're not placing the spike in the right place and going into the right place, then you risk it.

Questioner

You risk stealing the wrong thing.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Now if you're going off of somebody who's not a Mistborn, you can be a little more flexible, but you still have the danger that you're not going to end up stealing the power, you're going to steal something else. So, precision is advisable, how about that?

Questioner

Yeah. Because the question was kind of specifically about, like, we know that atium spikes can kill-- can steal pretty much any power.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You want to be super precise with your atium spike.

Questioner

So, part of the question was like, exactly, if you just killed a Mistborn, you stab a Mistborn in the heart with an atium spike, and you're not placing it immediately--

Brandon Sanderson

What do you end up with? You are rolling the dice, let's say. Not as big a roll of the dice as you might think, but you still are. You might not get what you want.

Questioner

And then when you place the spike on the recipient, if you like tore that spike out again and put it in someone else, you're not going to be able to get more than one power out of it?

Brandon Sanderson

No. No, and if you place the spike in the wrong place, then you're going to end up with interference and things like this where the spike might just not work the way you want it to. Taking a spike and putting it in the wrong place in someone is not going to make them have a different power, in other words.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

[Trusk'our]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

WoB:

  Hide contents

Questioner

My question was about Hemalurgy. There was a disagreement on the last Shardcast. When spiking a Mistborn to charge a Hemalurgic spike, does it matter how the Mistborn is killed or is what power is stolen based only on the metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So you want to place the spike in a specific place.

Questioner

In the donor. In the recipient, not the donor.

Brandon Sanderson

In the recipient. And you want to use the specific metal and so basically if you aren't precise about how you spike, you risk taking the wrong thing within the same family. Some of those, that's not as big a deal, but for some it is kind of a big deal. And so you want to be very precise, you'll get something, but if you're not placing the spike in the right place and going into the right place, then you risk it.

Questioner

You risk stealing the wrong thing.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Now if you're going off of somebody who's not a Mistborn, you can be a little more flexible, but you still have the danger that you're not going to end up stealing the power, you're going to steal something else. So, precision is advisable, how about that?

Questioner

Yeah. Because the question was kind of specifically about, like, we know that atium spikes can kill-- can steal pretty much any power.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You want to be super precise with your atium spike.

Questioner

So, part of the question was like, exactly, if you just killed a Mistborn, you stab a Mistborn in the heart with an atium spike, and you're not placing it immediately--

Brandon Sanderson

What do you end up with? You are rolling the dice, let's say. Not as big a roll of the dice as you might think, but you still are. You might not get what you want.

Questioner

And then when you place the spike on the recipient, if you like tore that spike out again and put it in someone else, you're not going to be able to get more than one power out of it?

Brandon Sanderson

No. No, and if you place the spike in the wrong place, then you're going to end up with interference and things like this where the spike might just not work the way you want it to. Taking a spike and putting it in the wrong place in someone is not going to make them have a different power, in other words.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

I fail to see how this WoB pertains to my previous questions. I was speaking of alloying the metal of the spike incorrectly after charging a valid metal, but this WoB is speaking solely about the placement of the spike.

[alder24]

18 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I fail to see how this WoB pertains to my previous questions. I was speaking of alloying the metal of the spike incorrectly after charging a valid metal, but this WoB is speaking solely about the placement of the spike.

It would work in the same way. The power the alloyed spiked holds is not aligned with the metal, thus you won't be able to get that power from it, there would be interferences. Something might happen, your soul might get a bit invested - or not at all. Like with metalminds that were alloyed, the power will be blocked from accessing it. It should still be counted as a Hemalurgic spike, it would still damage your soul, but you wouldn't get much from it, certainly not the thing you've stolen.

I also thought that a spike placed in a wrong binding point will cause pain, but I can't find any confirmation of that now. If that's the case then an alloyed spike will always cause excessive pain, because of power misalignment with metal holding that power.

[Trusk'our]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

I also thought that a spike placed in a wrong binding point will cause pain, but I can't find any confirmation of that now.

Wax mentions to Wayne in TLM that Wayne's spike must have been put in correctly, otherwise he'd just be in a whole lot of pain. Was that where it came from?