How obvious are lifeless?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

Okay. So I know that lifeless have the color drained from them but how much is that?  How obvious would lifeless be if they were already fairly gray to begin with?  

Say a Koloss... would he look so different as a lifeless?  

If I was able to slay a pack of whitespine, do you think they would be really recognizable as lifeless?  

How well would a lifeless ryshadium work? 

We see Arsteel is still a decent enough duelist and he seems to understand some commands as well as being able to make decisions to some extent.  Would a mount that was awakened to be a lifeless still function properly? 

Would a pack of whitespines or corehounds still be able to coordinate attacks or would they all need separate commands? 

I know we see people with commands over the lifeless army but how well do you all think that army works with itself to fight?  Is there enough brain to not have an absurd amount of friendly fire?  

And of course... most important of all. Could you command a Larkin to eat a person of choices investiture? 

[therunner he/him]

4 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Okay. So I know that lifeless have the color drained from them but how much is that?  How obvious would lifeless be if they were already fairly gray to begin with? 

I'd say rather obvious, I imagine them basically as grayscale version of themselves. Plus they don't move at all unless performing their Commands, so they are unnaturally still.

4 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Say a Koloss... would he look so different as a lifeless? 

Yes, Koloss are quite clear blue, with red where skin is torn. Now they would be just grey.

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If I was able to slay a pack of whitespine, do you think they would be really recognizable as lifeless?  

Those would be probably more difficult to recognize, however they might be difficult to Awaken.
The color is drained from Lifeless to fuel the Awakening, so less color = more difficult Awakening.

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How well would a lifeless ryshadium work? 

Like large lifeless horse. They would no longer have the bond to spren they have in life, and wouldn't be able to make new ones. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/522/#e16238)

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We see Arsteel is still a decent enough duelist and he seems to understand some commands as well as being able to make decisions to some extent.  Would a mount that was awakened to be a lifeless still function properly? 

To some extent yes, but they would be worse mount than a living horse. The skills of Lifeless seem to be always degraded compared to life (which makes sense, since only physical aspect of the being remains).
Arsteel/Clod is also a bit more self-aware than most, because he Vasher infused him with a lot of Breaths moments before killing him, which probably won't happen with your horse.

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Would a pack of whitespines or corehounds still be able to coordinate attacks or would they all need separate commands? 

I don't think they would, or at least not very well.

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I know we see people with commands over the lifeless army but how well do you all think that army works with itself to fight?  Is there enough brain to not have an absurd amount of friendly fire?  

I'd say it would depend on Command given to them, but I would say they are rather "disciplined".

4 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

And of course... most important of all. Could you command a Larkin to eat a person of choices investiture? 

I'd say no. Any and all interactions with Investiture require spiritweb to some extent, and Lifeless Larkin no longer has Larkin soul, just bunch of Breaths.

With a lot of work you might be able to hack something together, but I would say it would same level of possibility/difficulty as trying to Awaken Chromium Misting corpse to be again Chromium Misting.

Edited November 28, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Okay. So I know that lifeless have the color drained from them but how much is that?  How obvious would lifeless be if they were already fairly gray to begin with?  

Quite a lot. They're dull gray, all of their body not just skin, from hair to eyes. It's easy to recognise them even if you've never seen them. Not to mention that they're dead - they don't blink, don't breathe, don't move, shake, twist or anything unless Commanded. They can stand in the corner motionless like a statue. 

Warbreaker ch 4:

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“Austre, God of Colors!” one of Siri’s guards whispered. “They’re Lifeless!”
Siri’s hair—which had begun to drift to auburn—snapped back to fearful white. He was right. Under their colorful uniforms, the Hallandren troops were a dull grey. Their eyes, their skin, even their hair: all had been drained completely of color, leaving behind a monochrome.
Those can’t be Lifeless! she thought. They look like men!
She’d imagined Lifeless as skeletal creatures, the flesh rotting and falling from the bones. They were, after all, men who had died, then been brought back to life as mindless soldiers. But these that she passed looked so human. There was nothing to distinguish them save for their lack of color and the stiff expressions on their faces. That, and the fact that they stood unnaturally motionless. No shuffling, no breathing, no quivers of muscle or limb. Even their eyes were still. They seemed like statues, particularly considering their grey skin.

 

10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Say a Koloss... would he look so different as a lifeless?  

Really? A blue, red-eyed Koloss with bloody red tears and rips on his skin, turned fully gray into Lifeless? Lifeless Koloss would stick out like a sore thumb.

10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If I was able to slay a pack of whitespine, do you think they would be really recognizable as lifeless?  

Yes. Gray isn't white.

10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

How well would a lifeless ryshadium work? 

Not well. Ryshadium have a spren bond, so all they get from it would be lost for a Lifeless Ryshadium. Colorwise they would be also very noticeable.

10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

We see Arsteel is still a decent enough duelist and he seems to understand some commands as well as being able to make decisions to some extent. 

He died while being Invested, which helps if you want to make a Lifeless out of him. But their former skills are passed onto Lifeless - more or less.

Spoiler

Joeh42

In Warbreaker, is Clod the Lifeless body of Arsteel? I like this idea because Arsteel would have had some Breaths within him when he died, as this is how Vashir defeated him and Denth, and this could help explain why he seems to be a little more self-aware than most Lifeless. Could you respond to this idea?

Brandon Sanderson

I confirmed in the Warbreaker annotations that Clod is Arsteel.

Clod is more self-aware than most Lifeless. There is something left of Arsteel within Clod. The Breaths that Vasher gave him when he killed him do have an effect on this.

Tor.com Q&A with Brandon Sanderson (Jan. 10, 2011)

 

10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Would a mount that was awakened to be a lifeless still function properly? 

Yes.

10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Would a pack of whitespines or corehounds still be able to coordinate attacks or would they all need separate commands? 

They would be able to coordinate (if you include that in your Commands), just like any Lifeless are able to do that. 

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Clod blocked an attack from the remaining Lifeless guard. Behind, in the mouth of the alleyway, two more appeared. They charged as Clod backed up, firmly planting one foot on either side of Vivenna, his sword held before him. It dripped clear liquid.
The remaining lifeless guard waited for the other two to approach.
[...]
The three attacked. She had assumed—in her ignorance back in Idris— that Lifeless were like decaying skeletons or corpses. She’d imagined them attacking in waves, lacking skill, but having relentless, dark power. 
She’d been wrong. These creatures moved with proficiency and coordination, just as a human might. Except there was no speaking. No yelling or grunting.

 

11 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I know we see people with commands over the lifeless army but how well do you all think that army works with itself to fight?  Is there enough brain to not have an absurd amount of friendly fire?  

"Attack those who have different colors than yours". "Attack Idrians". "Don't attack Hallandren Lifeless". You put into them several Commands ahead, you basically program how they should act in any situation - most of this would be done by proper visualization instead of vocal Commands. The bigger the brain the more Commands it can follow. The better the Awakener is at visualization during the very first Awakening, the better the Lifeless is at following later Commands.

11 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Could you command a Larkin to eat a person of choices investiture? 

I doubt it. This either comes from their spren bond or from their spirit web. But if this is something in their physical body, independent from their spirit web, then yes.

 

6 hours ago, therunner said:

The color is drained from Lifeless to fuel the Awakening, so less color = more difficult Awakening.

Their insides aren't gray. There is enough color in animals to be easily Awakened. Vasher Awakens gray squirrel without any problem, he didn't note that it lacks color, no. It's visualization that determines how good Lifeless is.

Warbreaker ch 21:

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The squirrel lost all color, bleeding to grey, the Awakening feeding off the body’s own colors to help fuel the transformation. The squirrel had been grey in the first place, so the difference was tough to see. That’s why Vasher liked to use them.

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher Fights the Guards, Then Creates a Lifeless Squirrel

I wanted to show the creation of a Lifeless somewhere in this book, as I think the process is interesting. The draining of color happens in a slightly different way than in regular Awakening, though it's similar. In this case, the creature draws color from its own body in order to come to life.

The better your imagining of the Command when you make it (not the orders you give it, but the one when you give it the Breath), the more intelligent and capable of following orders the Lifeless is. Later in the book, for instance, people are surprised at how good this little squirrel is at doing what it is told.

Warbreaker Annotations (Oct. 19, 2010)

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

Thanks guys.  I think I misremembered the koloss as being more grey blue.  I didn't think they were bright blue and always pictured them closer to gray. 

Maybe it is more of a Koloss Blooded trait?  Wasn't Tarson described as being grey blue skinned? 

[therunner he/him]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

Their insides aren't gray. There is enough color in animals to be easily Awakened. Vasher Awakens gray squirrel without any problem, he didn't note that it lacks color, no. It's visualization that determines how good Lifeless is.

Ah good point, I forgot insides would not be gray

Though I will note that some amount of color is necessary, so if you had animal that was (outside and inside) gray, most people could not Awaken it.

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, therunner said:

Though I will note that some amount of color is necessary, so if you had animal that was (outside and inside) gray, most people could not Awaken it.

Sure, find me such animal then  

[Treamayne]

8 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Maybe it is more of a Koloss Blooded trait?  Wasn't Tarson described as being grey blue skinned? 

Yes, Koloss-blooded have a gray tinge until they receive their spikes (should they choose to do so). AoL:

Spoiler

Ch 5

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“Hand me your notebook.”

She glanced at him.

“Now,” he said, sprinkling steel dust into his wine, then reaching under the table. She hesitantly handed over the notebook as a bandit walked toward their table. It was the gray-skinned one with the thick neck.

“Wayne,” Waxillium said, “bat on the wall.”

Ch 18:

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“The Pewterarm?” Waxillium asked.

“We fought to a standstill,” Wayne said. “Bastard is fast.”

Waxillium nodded. Pewter burners always gave Wayne trouble. Wayne could heal far more quickly, but the Pewterarm’s powers made him fast and strong. In a hand-to-hand fight, Wayne was at the disadvantage.

“He still has my lucky hat,” Wayne noted, nodding to where the gray-skinned man stood behind the group of Vanishers, egging them on.

 

 

[therunner he/him]

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

Sure, find me such animal then  

I am reasonably certain that after few centuries with genetic manipulation and Realmatics manipulation you could make something like that...for reasons

5 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Yes, Koloss-blooded have a gray tinge until they receive their spikes (should they choose to do so). AoL:

  Reveal hidden contents

Ch 5

Ch 18:

 

 

Ah, interesting. Wonder why that is.
But it would make Koloss-blooded lifeless a bit less noticeable compared to usual ones. Wonder you could give them Command to also fake breathing and mildy movements, to further mask their nature.

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

On 11/29/2023 at 3:47 AM, therunner said:

Wonder you could give them Command to also fake breathing and mildy movements, to further mask their nature.

Of course you could. You can give any command if you do it right. You just have to do it right.

Also, Koloss-blooded do stand out most places, even Scadrians aren't completely used to them.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 hours ago, Lego Mistborn said:

Of course you could. You can give any command if you do it right. You just have to do it right.

Also, Koloss-blooded do stand out most places, even Scadrians aren't completely used to them.

But the idea is that even though they stand out as koloss blooded, maybe they will stand out less as lifeless specifically. 

The whole necromancy parts of Awakening are so useful, but without a doubt the most morally gray area of the system. I have a hard time thinking of a character with access to breaths not using them in this capacity at least a little.  Sure an awakened suit of armor or clothing to hold up a meat suit is pretty solid for it but nothing like awakening a fallen solider or fighter for your needs.  Way way way less breath and I would imagine more skilled and effective for fighting than some cloth... maybe not though... ropes to do whatever your mind can desire and think up are likely fairly precise based on that command. I wonder about the accuracy of it all. 

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

No, they're for sure less obvious that other beings in lifeless form, but they are also noticeable still. Although, having them around could be a diversion if you have a plot involving lifeless that you want to hide.