Easy Hack for Feruchemical Electrum

[Trusk'our]

F-electrum seems pretty neat, and if it can induce a Flow state it's going to be a really good ability (I'm still learning about Flow, but from what I can tell right now, it's just really awesome). 

Unfortunately, it requires the practitioner to drain themselves of determination to use its benefits, which is a pretty strong limitation unless one just happens to be a natural electrum Compounder or has figured out how to deal with Hemalurgic Identity contamination.

But there is another way to hack F-electrum. So stupidly easy in fact that basically any Pinnacle Ferring could use this; just hire a Rioter to amplify your determination so you can store it. That's literally it.

Feruchemists can store things that directly affect their attributes, such as a Bronze Ferring being able to store the wakefulness granted by caffeine or a Pewter Ferring being able to store A-pewter's strength boost.

Spoiler

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Vodid

If you have caffeine, can you store that as wakefulness in a bronzemind?

Brandon Sanderson

I think that you can, but I think when you tap it out, you will have kind of the same effects, right. Like, you will feel like you are not quite as awake. Like that feeling you get, I think you guys know what I'm talking about. I think that you can, I think that you can hack the system with some things like that. That's my guess... That's my answer right now, but that's one pretty mutable, as we go forward.

Adam Horne

I'd be curious to see what you could do with that in Era 3, because pharmaceuticals will exist.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes well, you're already getting into the fact that you could replicate a lot of things, with... once they figure how to change types of Investiture and whatnot, then suddenly you've got some wacky things going on. Which is why a Mistborn cyberpunk would be so much fun, because metallurgic wetware would be fun. But no promises on that—I already have too many things to write. It's just that if I do write it, and I make it a trilogy, then we have sixteen books in the Mistborn series.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/246/#e5503

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Allomantic pewter strength can be stored in a metalmind, but it's probably easier to just Compound.

And since determination is an emotion explicitly stated in the Coppermind Wiki to be something a Rioter can directly affect (link here), it would be incredibly easy for them to Riot an electrum Ferring, allowing them to have large stores of determination to tap at any time they wanted.

EDIT: you know, there are Soothers that can be hired at parlors for relaxing people, but could Rioters be hired out to make a workplace more productive? It doesn't seem like the employees or the employers would object after all; the employees get to feel great as Emotional Allomancy boosts their happiness and determination while the employers benefit from higher overall productivity.

Sounds like a great way for a Rioter to make some money.

Edited November 19 by Trusk'our

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

F-electrum seems pretty neat, and if it can induce a Flow state it's going to be a really good ability (I'm still learning about Flow, but from what I can tell right now, it's just really awesome). 

Unfortunately, it requires the practitioner to drain themselves of determination to use its benefits, which is a pretty strong limitation unless one just happens to be a natural electrum Compounder or has figured out how to deal with Hemalurgic Identity contamination.

But there is another way to hack F-electrum. So stupidly easy in fact that basically any Pinnacle Ferring could use this; just hire a Rioter to amplify your determination so you can store it. That's literally it.

Feruchemists can store things that directly affect their attributes, such as a Bronze Ferring being able to store the wakefulness granted by caffeine or a Pewter Ferring being able to store A-pewter's strength boost.

  Reveal hidden contents

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Vodid

If you have caffeine, can you store that as wakefulness in a bronzemind?

Brandon Sanderson

I think that you can, but I think when you tap it out, you will have kind of the same effects, right. Like, you will feel like you are not quite as awake. Like that feeling you get, I think you guys know what I'm talking about. I think that you can, I think that you can hack the system with some things like that. That's my guess... That's my answer right now, but that's one pretty mutable, as we go forward.

Adam Horne

I'd be curious to see what you could do with that in Era 3, because pharmaceuticals will exist.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes well, you're already getting into the fact that you could replicate a lot of things, with... once they figure how to change types of Investiture and whatnot, then suddenly you've got some wacky things going on. Which is why a Mistborn cyberpunk would be so much fun, because metallurgic wetware would be fun. But no promises on that—I already have too many things to write. It's just that if I do write it, and I make it a trilogy, then we have sixteen books in the Mistborn series.

  Reveal hidden contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/246/#e5503

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Allomantic pewter strength can be stored in a metalmind, but it's probably easier to just Compound.

And since determination is an emotion explicitly stated in the Coppermind Wiki to be something a Rioter can directly affect (link here), it would be incredibly easy for them to Riot an electrum Ferring, allowing them to have large stores of determination to tap at any time they wanted.

EDIT: you know, there are Soothers that can be hired at parlors for relaxing people, but could Rioters be hired out to make a workplace more productive? It doesn't seem like the employees or the employers would object after all; the employees get to feel great as Emotional Allomancy boosts their happiness and determination while the employers benefit from higher overall productivity.

Sounds like a great way for a Rioter to make some money.

I remember one of the characters in Diceborn soothing herself but I don't remember that happening in canon elsewhere.  

If you can riot yourself then a Allomantic zinc Feruchemical electrum twinborn could be a good combo.  

What is this flow state you are talking about?  Maybe I am missing something entirely. 

[Trusk'our]

56 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I remember one of the characters in Diceborn soothing herself but I don't remember that happening in canon elsewhere.  

If you can riot yourself then a Allomantic zinc Feruchemical electrum twinborn could be a good combo.  

I believe that in tWoA that Breeze says you can't do that as a Soother. You have to have someone else alter your emotions, as you can only target others. Perhaps if you were a Savant and had the right practice you could, but it would probably be hard to do.

58 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

What is this flow state you are talking about?  Maybe I am missing something entirely. 

I'm speaking of the irl experience known as the flow state, a state of mind where you are fully immersed in an activity and are capable of losing track of time and annoyances. It's also been proven to help someone learn more quickly and be able to form memories better, as well as enhancing their creativity and satisfaction.

Source: 

Spoiler

 

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I believe that in tWoA that Breeze says you can't do that as a Soother. You have to have someone else alter your emotions, as you can only target others. Perhaps if you were a Savant and had the right practice you could, but it would probably be hard to do.

I'm speaking of the irl experience known as the flow state, a state of mind where you are fully immersed in an activity and are capable of losing track of time and annoyances. It's also been proven to help someone learn more quickly and be able to form memories better, as well as enhancing their creativity and satisfaction.

Source: 

  Hide contents

 

 

Ah so in an attempt to recreate a metallic art version of NZT-48 from limitless this could certainly apply slightly. We need some zinc, copper and now a bit of electrum tapping to hit the mark.  

 

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

But there is another way to hack F-electrum. So stupidly easy in fact that basically any Pinnacle Ferring could use this; just hire a Rioter to amplify your determination so you can store it. That's literally it.

It should work.

12 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

EDIT: you know, there are Soothers that can be hired at parlors for relaxing people, but could Rioters be hired out to make a workplace more productive?

Probably not because of Allomantic Agreement of '94, it seems like emotional Allomancy is limited only to commercial parlors and Wax was even threatening them that he will report them to the police as they didn't have a proper shielding and emotional Allomancy was leaking out into the surrounding area. 

I doubt it would be legal in the workplace to affect your workers, as who's to say your boss doesn't force you to work for a lower salary, stay overtime or do some illegal activity for him or stuff like that. This is too shady.

Plus you can tell your emotions are being played with, Breeze is dead, normal Soothers or Rioters aren't that good to make those emotions feel like a natural part of you. It would make you feel weird - you know your emotions are being tampered with, you know you aren't happy or motivated, you know this isn't right. How can you work in a place where you can't trust your own feelings?

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I'm speaking of the irl experience known as the flow state, a state of mind where you are fully immersed in an activity and are capable of losing track of time and annoyances. It's also been proven to help someone learn more quickly and be able to form memories better, as well as enhancing their creativity and satisfaction.

Oh wow, my bad, I thought you were talking about Hemalurgic Flaw. I automatically assumed that there must be something about Hemalurgy in your topic  Yes, this Flow can be made with F-electrum. 

But some people don't need more determination, Kelsier had a lot of it without any help.

[Trusk'our]

4 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Ah so in an attempt to recreate a metallic art version of NZT-48 from limitless this could certainly apply slightly. We need some zinc, copper and now a bit of electrum tapping to hit the mark.  

Yup, essentially.

50 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It should work.

Excellent, I have now come up with either three or four good ideas (evil laugh commencing).

52 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Probably not because of Allomantic Agreement of '94, it seems like emotional Allomancy is limited only to commercial parlors and Wax was even threatening them that he will report them to the police as they didn't have a proper shielding and emotional Allomancy was leaking out into the surrounding area. 

I doubt it would be legal in the workplace to affect your workers, as who's to say your boss doesn't force you to work for a lower salary, stay overtime or do some illegal activity for him or stuff like that. This is too shady.

Plus you can tell your emotions are being played with, Breeze is dead, normal Soothers or Rioters aren't that good to make those emotions feel like a natural part of you. It would make you feel weird - you know your emotions are being tampered with, you know you aren't happy or motivated, you know this isn't right. How can you work in a place where you can't trust your own feelings?

Good points. Though I will say, just because Breeze was highly skilled doesn't mean that there can't be other Soothers/Rioters that could be so skilled it's hard to tell if they're affecting you.

Also, if someone is really worried about the boss taking advantage of you, aluminum is going to become extremely cheap by era 3, so that may make it pretty easy to avoid Emotional Allomancy altogether, which also may play into affecting how the law regards it (though it may very well just stay the same).

I honesty wonder how effective Emotional Allomancy is going to be when it can't be used in most settings where you'd want to use it.

56 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Oh wow, my bad, I thought you were talking about Hemalurgic Flaw. I automatically assumed that there must be something about Hemalurgy in your topic  Yes, this Flow can be made with F-electrum. 

Well, to be fair about 99% of my posts are about Hemalurgy somehow 

57 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But some people don't need more determination, Kelsier had a lot of it without any help.

Absolutely. Feruchemy doesn't replace natural ability, but it does change the way the attribute is viewed and used and can potentially augment that attribute to inhuman levels.

I really want to see F-electrum on screen now. I'd love to see how it's described as feeling in action. I want to know whether you can tap it like mental speed, muscle mass, or body heat and get a superhuman version of the normal ability. What would that even look like with determination? Would you have superhuman focus, drive, confidence, and willingness to accomplish hard tasks?

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Good points. Though I will say, just because Breeze was highly skilled doesn't mean that there can't be other Soothers/Rioters that could be so skilled it's hard to tell if they're affecting you.

Of course there can be, but on average they aren't like Breeze, and hiring someone like him would be really expensive. I wouldn’t expect a skilled Soother/Rioter to work like that.

6 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Also, if someone is really worried about the boss taking advantage of you, aluminum is going to become extremely cheap by era 3, so that may make it pretty easy to avoid Emotional Allomancy altogether, which also may play into affecting how the law regards it (though it may very well just stay the same).

Right now this isn't the case. It may also be that the workplace rules prohibit the use of aluminum hats for Rioter's sake.

9 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I really want to see F-electrum

I don't  For me it's still one of the worst.

[Trusk'our]

30 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't  For me it's still one of the worst.

Interesting. I personally feel like it could be one of the best Feruchemical metals if you had enough stores saved up (which you can get with a helpful Rioter), as it would let you use your own abilities and talents more effectively.

Perhaps this is mostly because I feel like it would be something I could use in my life, if I'm being honest; I always know I could do more. I want to. But I don't. I mostly just procrastinate and lose opportunities because of it.

I think that F-electrum would be interesting to see in a story also because it makes someone think about those things and really consider them. perhaps the protagonist has completely drained their Electrumminds but has to complete a very difficult task and learns that they don't need the magic to be competent. They were good enough already, even if without the power it's harder to do.

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Interesting. I personally feel like it could be one of the best Feruchemical metals if you had enough stores saved up (which you can get with a helpful Rioter), as it would let you use your own abilities and talents more effectively.

The best? Ha, you made me laugh  

The problem with being maniacally obsessed with some task is that you lose the ability to properly judge not only your own abilities, but also your safety and consequences of doing whatever you're obsessed about. You can be so obsessed that you won't see how much you're messing things up, or how dangerous it is until you stop tapping, which could be too late. You won't be using your abilities or talents more effectively, you will drive yourself to exhaustion and in doing so you will make many mistakes.

It is very helpful and beneficial in low amounts, but the more you tap the more dangerous for yourself you become, and you won't even realize that because you would be so hyper-focused on your task.

Plus spending time being depressed is a big no no and it might cause some more permanent slight mental health issues.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The best? Ha, you made me laugh  

The problem with being maniacally obsessed with some task is that you lose the ability to properly judge not only your own abilities, but also your safety and consequences of doing whatever you're obsessed about. You can be so obsessed that you won't see how much you're messing things up, or how dangerous it is until you stop tapping, which could be too late. You won't be using your abilities or talents more effectively, you will drive yourself to exhaustion and in doing so you will make many mistakes.

It is very helpful and beneficial in low amounts, but the more you tap the more dangerous for yourself you become, and you won't even realize that because you would be so hyper-focused on your task.

Plus spending time being depressed is a big no no and it might cause some more permanent slight mental health issues.

This is a good point.  Its almost like all the negatives of a hard long pewter drag at once without the actual pewter to fuel you.  

Feeling no need to stop and only a drive to keep going could definately be a recipe for disaster.  

Look at folks who love their lives like this.  They neglect self care for the pursuit of whatever reason and just end up in far worse situations.  

 

I can see some serious benefit of it but I think it almost has to be used in conjunction with other abilities to offset the potential negatives.  

 

[Trusk'our]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

The problem with being maniacally obsessed with some task is that you lose the ability to properly judge not only your own abilities, but also your safety and consequences of doing whatever you're obsessed about. You can be so obsessed that you won't see how much you're messing things up, or how dangerous it is until you stop tapping, which could be too late. You won't be using your abilities or talents more effectively, you will drive yourself to exhaustion and in doing so you will make many mistakes.

It is very helpful and beneficial in low amounts, but the more you tap the more dangerous for yourself you become, and you won't even realize that because you would be so hyper-focused on your task.

Plus spending time being depressed is a big no no and it might cause some more permanent slight mental health issues.

Interesting. I hadn't thought of the consequences of F-electrum being comparable to Pewterdragging, but I could see that happening.

I feel like that could be a good balancing mechanic, especially if you use a hack to get access to more determination than you'd normally have. Could make for an interesting protagonist, where they consistently drive themselves into the ground accomplishing some task, making large strides in whatever they're focused on, but also damaging other aspects of their life. This in turn would teach them the value of slowing down and taking time to care for themselves and their personal relationships.

Personally, I don't think that tapping it in larger amount would make you sloppier though; that's rather counter to the point of accessing the Flow state, if I'm correct (which I could be wrong about. I need to do more research to say definitively).

[therunner]

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Personally, I don't think that tapping it in larger amount would make you sloppier though; that's rather counter to the point of accessing the Flow state, if I'm correct (which I could be wrong about. I need to do more research to say definitively).

I am not sure if F-Electrum would help you get into Flow state.

Flow state is about focus specifically, whereas F-Electrum is determination/energy. Tapping a lot of F-Electrum is more liable to make you manic than to make you hyperfocus.

I would say that F-Zinc has better chance of helping you achieve flow state.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Personally, I don't think that tapping it in larger amount would make you sloppier though; that's rather counter to the point of accessing the Flow state, if I'm correct (which I could be wrong about. I need to do more research to say definitively).

It's not about getting sloppier, it's about becoming so obsessed with your task that you can't see that your way of doing it is just a bad idea and can result in unforeseeable consequences not only for you, but for unrelated others as well. You might miss an easier or better solution to your task when you're maniacal.

Kind of like Wax in TLM was so blinded by the idea that he needed to get to the top of the Tower by killing every Set member, that he didn't realize that the very last group of guards were just some poor guys that didn't not want to be there at all. Wayne quickly noticed that and stepped in to save their lives.