Survive is Hoid's Dawnshard

[Leonpaintbrush]

My running theory is that "Survive" as seen multiple times across Mistborn novels, particularly in Era1, is the command word given to one of the Dawnshards. "Survive" as an Intent/Command is antithetical to causing harm--because if one is directly harming another thing's active homeostasis, it is directly impacting its ability to survive. We know that Hoid cannot harm things, by his own admission. That is part of his Dawnshard's torment.

The reason that Kelsier heard the word "Survive" in the pits of Hathsin was because he was getting close to where the "Survive" Dawnshard was hidden. We know that Hoid has been to Scadrial, and likely ancient Scadrial in particular. Hoid's "worldsingers" have been connected in Words of Brandon to Scadrials "Worldbringers" a group in the Cosmere best known as spiritual leaders, philosophers, and storytellers during Scadrial's Classical Era, who were, historically members of the Terris people.

"But @Leonpaintbrush, why would Hoid go to classic Scadrial?"

Good question audience, two reasons pop out immediately. First, to obtain Feruchemy, the magic system of Scadrial that was most common during the Scadrian Classical Era. But dear reader, the better question is "How would Hoid go to classic Scadrial?" And the answer, in all likelihood is "through a perpendicularity, of course!". And as there were two shards present on Classic Scadrial, we have two options for perpendicularities--Ruin's or Preservation's. I find it particularly unlikely that Ruin would have anything to do with Cephandrius, or that Hoid would willingly seek Ruin out. So that leaves Leras/Preservation. But why would Preservation let Hoid on planet, I hear some of you ask. Well, Hoid is a known Dawnshard, and was, in theory, a Dawnshard for a particularly long time. Long enough to feel its effects on his spirit web. Long enough that he became vegetarian. Long enough that he cannot cause other people harm. Long enough.

"But @Leonpaintbrush, Feruchemy as a system is genetically based!"

Yes, but when did Hoid know that? Surely it is unlikely that he discovered that Feruchemy as a magic system is entirely genetic before he traveled to Classic Scadrial. How then is a poor Hoid to get the magic he so obviously craves? Well, outside of a deep understanding of Hemalurgy (something which Hoid is likely unwilling to do anyway as it opens up one's spirit web to Shardic influence), the only other way I can think of is by making a deal with Preservation--and if that fails, then you just have to come back a few hundred years later and steal a bead of Lerasium.

But even if Hoid didn't go there seeking magic, he may have gone there seeking a safe place to keep the Dawnshard he held. By keeping it within himself, he is increasingly subject to its influence. But by letting go of it, he risks someone else picking it up...what is a poor Hoid to do? Perhaps a shard like Preservation--with a heightened level of future sight would be helpful?

"Well, @Leonpaintbrush, how do you even hide a Dawnshard? We've only seen Change, and it was turned into a mural on an "uninhabited" island policed by bug people!"

Well, reader, you hide it under a bigger pool of Investiture--something like a perpendicularity. Something like, the Pits of Hathsin.

This has been my unhinged Tedtalk. Would love to discuss further.

Edited November 10 by Leonpaintbrush

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

Sunlit Man spoilers:

Spoiler

We see this later in Nomad as well, but to a lessor extent.

 

Sunlit Man spoilers are not allowed here, on this subforum. Please edit your post (you can find the edit option in the 3 dot menu in the upper right corner of your post) and delete this section.

10 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

The reason that Kelsier heard the word "Survive" in the pits of Hathsin was because he was getting close to where the "Survive" Dawnshard was hidden.

Have you read Secret History? SH spoilers:

Spoiler

He heard "Survive" because Preservation told him that in his moment of Snapping. SH ch 6-4:

Quote

Do better, Kelsier, Preservation commanded, his voice fading. If the end comes, get them below ground. It might help. And remember . . . remember what I told you, so long ago. . . . Do what I cannot, Kelsier. . . .
SURVIVE.
The word vibrated through him, and Kelsier gasped. He knew that feeling, remembered that exact command. He’d heard that voice in the Pits. Waking him, driving him forward.
Saving him.

 

 

10 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

And as there were two shards present on Classic Scadrial, we have two options for perpendicularities--Ruin's or Preservation's. I find it particularly unlikely that Ruin would have anything to do with Cephandrius, or that Hoid would willingly seek Ruin out. So that leaves Leras/Preservation. But why would Preservation let Hoid on planet, I hear some of you ask.

There are some problems with this. Firstly, Perpendicularity is generally independent from its Shard. They can't really deny people the right to enter (only Autonomy is somehow able to do so, but this might be achieved by simply guarding the area with loyal servants). Secondly, Ruin was imprisoned back then, he would have no control over almost anything at all. Shards being willing to interact with Hoid or not have no bearing on Hoid's ability to use Perpendicularity - Hoid can hide his presence from Shards, so that they would be unable to sense him (like we see in SH). Using Shard's Perpendicularity doesn't mean "seeking this Shard out". 

Perpendicularity is a natural manifestation of Shard's presence in the system. Because Shards invest in a planet, their power is leaking out from the Spiritual Realm into the Physical Realm, and concentrate as Physical investiture in form of gas, liquid and solid. This liquid form creates Perpendicularity - Shards don't create them (again, Autonomy is a weirdo), they manifest naturally on the planet, independently from Shardic will. Just like Shards can't prevent someone from using their god metals or their Invested Arts, Shards can't prevent someone from using their Perpendicularity.

Moreover, during the Classical era of Scadrial, Preservation's Perpendicularity was far away, in the most inaccessible place on Scadrial, weeks or months away from any settlements - using that Perpendicularity to enter Scadrial would be tiresome. SH spoilers:

Spoiler

And to add even more, If Hoid used that Perpendicularity previously, he would have grabbed a Lerasium bead back then. He didn't. Another thing is that Hoid himself said that using Preservation's Perpendicularity is dangerous because of Ruin being imprisoned there. I doubt even Hoid would use that Perpendicularity to enter Scadrial if he could just safely use Ruin's Perpendicularity. SH 2-1:

Quote

“Got stuck there, did you?” the man said. “In Ati’s prison . . .” He clicked his tongue. “Fitting recompense, for what you did. Poetic even.”
“What I did?”
“Destroying the Pits, O scarred one. That was the only perpendicularity on this planet with any reasonable ease of access. This one is very dangerous, growing more so by the minute, and difficult to find. By doing as you did, you basically ended traffic through Scadrial. Upended an entire mercantile ecosystem, which I’ll admit was fun to watch.”
[...]
“Someone was just here,” Kelsier said. “A man with white hair. He somehow used this Well to pass from the world of the dead to the world of the living.”
“I see,” Fuzz said softly. “He dared that, did he? Dangerous, with Ruin straining against his bonds. But if anyone were going to try something so foolhardy, it would be Cephandrius.”

 

 

11 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

Well, Hoid is a known Dawnshard, and was, in theory, a Dawnshard for a particularly long time. Long enough to feel its effects on his spirit web.

We don't know how long Hoid was a Dawnshard. Just holding so much power for a brief moment would twist and expand his soul and leave a lasting effect on him, just like holding Shardic power does to people who later become Slivers. You can hold it even for a brief moment, like Vin or Rahsek did, and it still will expand your soul and make you a Sliver after you drop the power. The same would apply to Dawnshard. 

Spoiler

Zach

Also, would the Elantrians and the Lerasium-mistings be considered Slivers? Or is just the Lord Ruler and Vin Slivers (Via the Well)? Or do you need more power to be considered a Sliver?

Brandon Sanderson

Elantrians are not slivers. Mistborn trilogy spoiler warnings follow! The Lord Ruler was indeed a Sliver. So was Vin. For the rest, I would say probably not.

What defines an actual Sliver of Adonalsium is not as clear-cut as you might think. It's a term that in-universe people who study this have applied to various existences and states. Every single person on the world of Scadrial has a bit of Leras in them—a bit of the power of Preservation. Every single person has a bit of Ati in them. There's a certain threshold where these scholars would call you a Sliver of Adonalsium. But I would say that any regular Misting is probably not a Sliver. A full Lerasium Mistborn is getting closer, but people who have held one of the powers are what would probably be termed a Sliver by the definitions. If you hold all the power that makes you a Shard, but the Lord Ruler held a little bit of it and then let it go. From then on they referred to that change in him—the residue, what was left—as a Sliver. When he held it he became the Shard for a short time, and Vin was a Shard for a short time. After Vin gave up the power, what Kelsier is at the end of the trilogy—that's a Sliver of Adonalsium.

Goodreads Fantasy Book Discussion Warbreaker Q&A (Jan. 18, 2010)

 

Spoiler

asmodeus

Can you tell us a little bit more about what these things are? The book itself gives us a lot in very little, so it'd be nice to get some perspective on how you think about these. Not necessarily fishing for more information, just... clarity on what we just learned.

Brandon Sanderson

By "these things" do you mean the Dawnshards? In this case, I can't say more, I'm afraid. They're plot points in future books, and I maybe already explained more than I should have.

asmodeus

I was mostly wondering what happened in the cave. It's... it feels like the Command to change, to remake, was somehow imprinted or passed onto a mural, and then when Rysn looked at it, it passed back onto, and perhaps into her.

Where I'm a little confused is... is the Command, the Dawnshard, "binding" to her as this thing outside of her, or is it becoming a part of her? Or are these two cases, depending on how you look at this, the same thing?

Also, curious based on how the mural was described in terms of four fours, but is the number of Shards being 16 a function of how the four Dawnshards were used to Shatter?

Brandon Sanderson

Mostly RAFOs, here, I'm afraid.

To those in-world, she now IS the Dawnshard. Whether that's what the community thinks is another story.

Phantine

Would that make Hoid a "Dawnsliver", or is there some other fancypants terms for it?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on a variety of things, Phantine. But I'd be okay with that terminology. It's basically accurate.

Gale_Emchild

Does that mean that before she became the Dawnshard that the wall was?

Brandon Sanderson

More the mural. But yes, that would be the implication. Note that it was not an ordinary mural.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid was a Dawnshard at some point in the deep past, and the reason he (even still) cannot physically harm people, or even eat meat, is related to the changes this made to his spirit. (Consider this the same fundamental principle as savanthood.) The few of you who have read Dragonsteel know that him being a Dawnshard was also the source of his immortality in that book, though the terms were different back then. (The word Dawnshard was never mentioned, for example--though the primary story of Dragonsteel (which is no longer canon) was about several people who unwittingly become Dawnshards.)

And a preemptive RAFO to all questions on this point.

Dawnshard Annotations (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

11 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

the only other way I can think of is by making a deal with Preservation--and if that fails, then you just have to come back a few hundred years later and steal a bead of Lerasium.

There are ways to grant you Feruchemy using Scadrial's god metals. Pure Lerasium gives you only Allomancy, and from SA we know Hoid used his Lerasium bead to get Allomancy. For all we know, Hoid doesn't have Feruchemy. If Hoid had Feruchemy, he would use it to store his memories in Copperminds, not in Breaths.

Spoiler

Yoitsthew

Would a lerasium/atium alloy create a Feruchemist, rather than an atium misting?? What with the way that it’s an alloy of god metals, and the way that lerasium can be used to acquire other magics? As far as I know there is no lerasium left currently, so this one is also just for my curiosity!!

Brandon Sanderson

You can use the god metals from Scadrial to make a Feruchemist, but I have to RAFO the actual means.

General Reddit 2020 (Sept. 30, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Skaiiwalker (paraphrased)

Does Hoid use his Feruchemical abilities with the atium to see the future?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Ah ah ah, I haven't confirmed that Hoid had Feruchemical abilities.

Skaiiwalker (paraphrased)

You haven't?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

*grinning slyly* No, but most people think he has Allomancy.

Teen Author Boot Camp (April 11, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

First of all, Lord Ruler had his Lerasium beads. Did he use them for feruchemy?

Brandon Sanderson

The Lord Ruler, that's an excellent question, I'm not answer that one.

Questioner

Will you answer if Hoid used it for Feruchemy?

Brandon Sanderson

His bead, he originally got it because he wanted to become an Allomancer.

Salt Lake City signing (March 29, 2014)

 

11 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

Perhaps a shard like Preservation--with a heightened level of future sight would be helpful?

Trusting a Shard that already broke his Oath and now is slowly dying with something as powerful as a Dawnshard is a very bad idea. Leaving it on Scadrial is even a worse idea - sooner or later Ruin will be free and Dawnshard will be his. I don't think Hoid would be that stupid to leave a Dawnshard basically in Ruin's hands. And yes, Shards can use Dawnshard and the effect of this would be disastrous.

11 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

Well, reader, you hide it under a bigger pool of Investiture--something like a perpendicularity. Something like, the Pits of Hathsin.

I bet you could hide it like that, but the problem with the Pits is that they are the hub for intergalactic trade, lots of people hang around the Pits, and there are several groups of people hunting for Dawnshard. It takes just a bit of Fortune for someone to discover it and those "Dawnhunters" would soon know about it. 

Overall I think it's possible that there is a Dawnshard named Survive, and Hoid was holding it. However I don't think he would leave it on Scadrial, with Ruin waiting to get free. That would be really dangerous. Nonetheless it's an interesting theory.

[Leonpaintbrush]

Hi @alder24,

I wanted to thank you so much for your comment. You've given me a lot to think about and dig into. I'm going to respond with a longer comment in near future. I need to collect a lot of my thoughts and be able to figure out how to hide certain spoilers and quote certain pieces of text in the same way that you did--I'm a newbie to using these forums, so I hope you'll bear with me as I figure it out.

But I will absolutely be responding with a sizeable update that will, hopefully, clarify some of my positions and make the overall theory more compelling. Thanks again for bringing up so many compelling points of questioning.

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

I need to collect a lot of my thoughts and be able to figure out how to hide certain spoilers and quote certain pieces of text in the same way that you did--I'm a newbie to using these forums, so I hope you'll bear with me as I figure it out.

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11 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

But I will absolutely be responding with a sizeable update that will, hopefully, clarify some of my positions and make the overall theory more compelling. Thanks again for bringing up so many compelling points of questioning.

Good to hear that. I'm interested in reading more about this theory.  

[Onironte]

Hi @Leonpaintbrush,

I believe, within the categories proposed by @TheoreticalMagic in "The Four Dawnshards as the Cosmere Unified Field Theory" and upgraded on "Shard Patterns", Hoid's Dawnshard would fit best into the "Exist" category, which I think is simultaneously the category of "Survive." It's strange, because it makes you immortal but unable to kill, as if the Command of Existence applies to both the bearer of the Dawnshard and others.

And as for where to hide a Dawnshard, if I had to bet where Hoid left it, I probably wouldn't:

-Edgli and Hoid detest each other, so I think we can rule out Nalthis.
-As he has actively avoided Rayse, we can also eliminate Roshar, probably the entire system, not just the planet. Although he got along with Tanavast, I don't think he would
        risk an encounter with Odium with a Dawnshard.
-The aforementioned reason also rules out Sel as a candidate.
-I don't believe Hoid would leave a Dawnshard near Ruin, so I am going to dismiss Scadrial.
-Hoid doesn't seem to have a bad relationship with Valor and the other Shards, who only appear in RoW interludes, but they don't seem to have seen Hoid for a while.
-Autonomy hates Hoid, so we can also dismiss Taldain.
-Autonomy's avatar in Obrodai told Hoid not to return, so he might have left and picked up a Dawnshard, although it would surprise me.
-We can dismiss Threnody without hesitation (Dawnshard + Shade = Awful Idea).
-I think there has been a Dawnshard in Komashi, but it seems from Hoid's narrative tone in "Yumi and the Nightmare Painter" that he hadn't been there before.
-And I think the same is truth about Lumar.
-Canticle is practically perfect, but when Hoid spoke to Nomad he said that the latter had seen more Cosmere than Hoid, from which I deduce that Hoid has not been to Canticle.
-Silverlight would be the best place to ensure it does fall into the wrong hands, and Hoid knows it.
-I don't think Frost and the Seventeenth Shard would accept having a Dawnshard (that's meddling in the affairs of Shards), and I don't think Hoid would risk giving it to them.
-If Hoid gave the Dawnshard to the Ire, their ambition would end with bad consequences, so they are also ruled out.
-The Ghostbloods did not exist at that time.

That leaves only planets about which we know luckily the name such as Vax, Yolen, Mythos, Bjendal, the unnamed (for now) Aether homeworld…

Concluding: I have no idea about where, and only suppositions about what, so I think it's probably RAFO.

[Leonpaintbrush]

Hi @alder24 and @Onironte,

Wanted to thank you both for your contributions thus far. While this post will mainly dive into @alder24's original comment, I think aspects of it may be responsive to @Onironte in some ways. Also, sorry if this post's formatting is a hot mess. I've tried to use spoiler tags and quotes where I thought appropriate. Since the post has been moved to the Sunlit Man discussion forum, hopefully if any issues exist they are more minor in scope. In a huge abundance of caution, I'm stating a massive spoiler tag upfront as I talk about things all over Mistborn, Secret History, parts of Stormlight Archive, and likely more. I've personally read just about every Cosmere book or short story, so I tend to jump all over the texts to cite examples that I think are relevant.
 

Spoiler

On 11/10/2023 at 1:35 PM, alder24 said:

He heard "Survive" because Preservation told him that in his moment of Snapping. SH ch 6-4:

I think that's a good point to make, and a great quote in general. I read Secret History way back, so was not as up-to-date with the direct quotes. But with the quote you referenced, I feel like there may be some nuance and a few more questions surrounding it that could be explored.

Firstly, I’m not sure that we know with absolute certainty that

Spoiler

Preservation actually said anything at all.

Some Words of Brandon have suggested that when the voice of a Shard that is “heard” by a person it is not a direct statement from the Shard, but is the subject’s mental interpretation of an impression that the Shard is sending.

Quote

Somerandom1922
When Zane is talking to Straff about Luthadel and whether they have the Atium, he is told by 'God' (Ruin) to kill Straff. Zane responds in his thoughts which we are told time and again that Ruin cannot read thoughts, even for spiked individuals like Marsh. However, Ruin directly responds to Zane's thoughts.
The full quote is
"Kill him!" God yelled. "You hate him! He kept you in squalor, forcing you to fight for your survival as a child."
He made me strong, Zane thought.
"Then use that strength to kill him!"
How could Ruin have known what Zane thought? Was this just a mistake or do you think it was intentional (perhaps Zane murmering under his breath)?

Peter Ahlstrom
Ruin is not always paying close attention and sending specific words into Zane’s mind. Sometimes Zane’s own mind supplies the words to go with the impressions that Ruin is sending.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/486/#e16026

Secondly, it has long been held and supported both by the texts of Mistborn Era1 and by WoBs that it is Ruin that can speak, and Preservation that can listen.

Quote

kilomtrs
So in the trilogy, we see that when someone has a Hemalurgic spike implanted in them, they can hear Ruin talking to them, both as a vision and in their head. However, we learn in the Hero of Ages that Ruin cannot hear a person's thoughts no matter how much under Ruin's influence they are.
In Alloy of Law, we see that Wax (and other Pathians) uses an earring to "pray" to Harmony, and we see that Harmony can hear his thoughts and respond.
So I guess this leads to three questions: How does Harmony hear the thoughts of Wax, when it's explicitly pointed put that Ruin cannot?
Are the earrings that the Pathians use Hemalurgically charged, as otherwise they would be of no use to Ruin, and therefore Harmony?
Or did Harmony completely change how that aspect of Hemalugy works?

Brandon Sanderson
How this all works dates back to the original design of the magic system.
I wanted Ruin and Preservation to be complementary opposites, like many things in the Mistborn world. Allomancy, for example, has Pushes and Pulls were are less "negate one another" opposites, but instead two sides to the same proverbial coin.
Ruin is invasive. The power is more "Yell" than "Listen." The philosopher would probably have some interesting things to say about the masculine symbolism of Hemalurgy and its spikes.
Ruin can insert thoughts. That power, however, can't HEAR the reactions. It's about invasion.
Preservation, however, is the opposite. Preservation listens, Preservation protects. (Perhaps to a fault--if there were no Ruin, there would be no change to the world, and life could not exist.) Because of this, Preservation can hear what is inside people's minds. It cannot, however, INSERT thoughts. (This is important to the plot of Hero of Ages.)
Harmony is both, the two complementary opposites combined. And so, he inserts thoughts with Ruin and still uses Hemalurgy. He can also listen.
Yes, Wax's earring is Invested. (Or, in other terms, it's a Hemalurgic spike.)

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/193/#e4156

Thus, Preservation “speaking” to Kelsier during the snapping seems to break a fundamental rule that we’ve been told, and shown, is fairly sacrosanct. Thirdly, we see snapping multiple times in Era1, particularly with the return of the Deepness in books 2 and 3 of the trilogy, and not once does anyone else on Scadrial mention hearing a voice telling them to “Survive.” This makes Kelsier’s snapping stand out, in stark juxtaposition, from every other snapping for which we have descriptions. Fourthly, when asked directly the question of who was speaking to Kelsier during his snap, Brandon did not give a direct answer:

Quote

RoboChrist
Did Kelsier really hear Preservation's voice telling him to Survive when he was in the pits of Hathsin? Or was it Ruin pretending to be Preservation?
If it was Preservation, does that mean Kelsier died in the pits? Or were there special circumstances that allowed Kelsier to hear Preservation's voice without dying?

Brandon Sanderson
Special things often happen in the cosmere when someone is very close to death, or undergoing intense pain (either physical or emotional.) Barriers between the realms weaken.
I can confirm that the Kelsier who left the pits was not a Cognitive Shadow.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e4159

If the answer was simple, and already spoken to within his core text, I’d like to think that Brandon would give a direct answer. Of course, this point can be easily and simply explained by the fact that Brandon has a tendency to focus on certain parts of questions posed to him and not others, and that’s fair enough. But the question was directly asked—subsequent to the publication of Secret History—and we did not receive a direct answer, at minimum.

Fifthly, by the time Kelsier encounters Preservation/Leras, the shard is in a highly diminished state. If there is a comparison to be had between the depiction of Fuzz in Secret History and the depiction of Honor in Stormlight Archive directly prior to and subsequent to the Recreance, it is plausible that Fuzz has become obsessed with concepts that parallel or inform his original Intent/Plan while lacking context for their importance or significance. We know that when Honor was being slowly shattered, that he became more obsessed with the saying of Oaths, but not their context, and with Dawnshards in particular as a harbinger of destruction/calamity. If Fuzz's breakdown parallels Honor's at all, I find it plausible, if not entirely likely that he too has become hyperfixated on certain "key words" that represent elements of his plan to betray and eventually win against Ruin, but lacks almost all the context or significance behind the words.  This is to say, when Fuzz gives us a bold pronouncement of truth, I'm not sure how much we can trust it. I think its at least worth looking at the claim--and here the claim was that Fuzz "told" Kelsier to "Survive" during his snap--which as I already mentioned cuts against a core rule that we know exists on Scadrial. Of course, Brandon does provide us the out that special things happen in the cosmere when someone is very close to death. So perhaps a weakening of the realms explains everything here. But snapping put many people close to death and that weakening of the realms didn't provide them with Preservation's command. All these things in tandem point to Kelsier's snapping being extremely pivotal and of heightened significance. It also is suggestive that there could be another secret here.

On 11/10/2023 at 1:35 PM, alder24 said:

Firstly, Perpendicularity is generally independent from its Shard.

While I agree that a Perpendicularity can be independent from its Shard, I'm not sure that I generally agree that a Perpendicularity is generally independent from its Shard. This might be more of a semantic point, than anything, however. I hold it true that a Perpendicularity is essentially a huge concentration of Investiture that warps the realms.

Quote

Questioner
Hoid worldhops between places. How did he do it on Scadrial? With Ati's body?

Brandon Sanderson
So, there were two perpendicularities on Scadrial.

Questioner
I know he uses the pools, but how did he do it with Pits of Hathsin? There was no pool? The body was there...

Brandon Sanderson
So, it doesn't have to be going through the pool. What happens with a perpendicularity is, where there is a massive collection of Investiture, it pulls a conduit through. So, if you know what you're doing and where you are, you can get through that.

Questioner
So you don't have to use the pools, just where there's a huge concentration...

Brandon Sanderson
A huge concentration of Investiture will warp the realms.

Questioner
So can anyone worldhop that way, then? If they know what to do?

Brandon Sanderson
If they know what to do, in a perpendicularity, anyone should be able to get through there. But as proven with Raoden, if you don't know what it's supposed to do, nothing happens. He gets dumped int he pool, he thinks he's gonna die... nothing. So, it's more than just being there.

Questioner
That's how he went from the Physical to the Cognitive, so I was wondering how did he do that at the Pits of Hathsin, when there shouldn't be a pool there

Brandon Sanderson
Well, that is the equivalent.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e9665

Further, enough concentrated Investiture in one place will pierce the Realms, no matter what form it takes.

Quote

TheFulgid
Could you Invest... Could you use a nicrosil metalmind to Invest the sort of Investiture enough that you could open a Perpendicularity up to the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson
So, I'll just say it this way. Enough concentrated Investiture in one point is going to pierce the Realms, no matter what form it takes.

TheFulgid
...So, it doesn't have to be a nicrosil metalmind.

Brandon Sanderson
No.

TheFulgid
Okay... But it could be?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes. That is theoretically possible.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8140

This does not suggest to me, however, that a Shardic Perpendicularity (also referred to as a shard pool in older WoBs) is independent from its Shard, only that some Perpendicularities are independent from Shards. A non-Splintered Shard can control where and how their perpendicularity manifests.

Quote

Backslash330

Are Shards limited to one per perpendicularity? Can a non-Splintered Shard control where and how their perpendicularity manifests?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, but yes on the second.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 20, 2018)

Further, A Shard may have more than one Shardic Perpendicularity/Shardpool.

Quote

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine

Can a Shard have more than one Shardpool?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine

Does Cultivation have another Shardpool in the Purelake?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

We also have an example in the Cosmere of a Shard completely closing off their planet, and thus “sealing” one of their perpendicularities with Autonomy and Taldain. Additionally, a Perpendicularity of a shard can effectively be sealed off if using it would put the user in the power or control of a Shard sealed within it, as is the case with the Well of Ascension late in Era1 and Ruin. When we take all of these things together, if a Shard has the ability to control where and how their shardic perpendicularities/shardpools manifest, and can make the use of their shardic perpendicularities/shardpools carry such cost as to effectively make them non-viable for cross-realm travel, I certainly don’t agree that a Shardic Perpendicularity is completely independent from its Shard. I would agree, however, that not all Perpendicularities are Shardic, and thus there can exist in the cosmere a number of Perpendicularities that are “independent.”

Sorry if that point was overly semantic and in the lack of clarity in my original posting. I stated a lot of things very broadly originially, and now that we're getting down into the nitty gritty, I've been provided an opportunity to really flesh out my points and my understandings of the cosmere.

 

On 11/10/2023 at 1:35 PM, alder24 said:

Secondly, Ruin was imprisoned back then, he would have no control over almost anything at all.

I think this depends completely on one's interpretation of “back then.” Though at the outset, I admit I did not clearly define what I meant by "back then" in the original post. I think we’re in agreement that there existed a time where Ruin and Preservation acted together in concerted effort to create Scadrial. We likely also agree, then, that there is also, some period of time in which Preservation/Leras abided by the co-operation agreement with Ruin/Ati. I think that Preservation’s “betrayal” of the cooperation  agreement likely took some time and some planning, and may have had something to do with Shardic influence (the power's influence) over the vessel of Leras. Thus, I think that there is almost assuredly, some span of time from the point the two shards created Scadrial together to the point where Preservation started to plan his betrayal, wherein Ruin would have had more than just a "measure" of control on Scadrial and on its people—including but not limited to the placement of its own Perpendicularity on the planet. If we can judge the level of control that a Shard’s Power (Intent) places upon the vessel by using Sazed as a data point, there is likely around 300 years of time before a Shard’s Power (Intent) starts noticeably affecting a vessel’s actions. The closer we are to the vessel’s original date of ascension as a Shard, the more control the vessel seemingly has over the power. The longer we go from that point, the more influence the Shard’s Power (Intent) will have over the vessel. But other factors, such as vessel and shard compatibility likely impact these metrics.

So, then, I think there was a time on what I'd label "Ancient Scadrial" where Ati/Ruin was free, unbound by Leras/Preservation [outside of the terms of their cooperation agreement], and thus able to move his shardpool/shardic perpendicularity at will, or at minimum decide its original placement on the planet.

 

On 11/10/2023 at 1:35 PM, alder24 said:

Shards being willing to interact with Hoid or not have no bearing on Hoid's ability to use Perpendicularity - Hoid can hide his presence from Shards, so that they would be unable to sense him (like we see in SH).

I agree that at some point in the Cosmere timeline, Hoid likely has enough power, investiture, and access to magic systems that a Shard’s whims have no bearing on Hoid’s ability to use a Perpendicularity generally—particularly where a Perpendicularity is merely a hyper concentration of investiture and not a Shardpool/Shardic Perpendicularity. But I would not necessarily agree that a Shard never had the ability to keep Hoid at bay or prevent his use of a Shardpool/Shardic Perpendicularity at any point in the cosmere timeline.

A WoB showcases that it was almost entirely through Perpendicularities that Hoid was able to reach many of the places in the Cosmere to which he traveled:

Quote

Questioner

I have a question about the cosmere, and Hoid specifically. The way that he is worldhopping, is he using Cognitive and *inaudible* Realms?

Brandon Sanderson

The times you have seen him worldhop, it has involved shardpools, or perpendicularities, as we call them. He is using primarily the Cognitive Realm.

Questioner

Because, from what I understood from Secret History, that he's going through the shardpool, from the Cognitive to the normal Realm.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, he's traveling through the Cognitive Realm, and then jumping back to the Physical one, once he's where he wants to go.

Questioner

So, I'm guessing what's going on, though, is that he's travelling between planets using the Cognitive and coming out from the shardpool to the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is exactly right.

Barnes & Noble B-Fest 2016 (June 11, 2016)

We also know that Hoid has been stuck on at least one planet due to the perpendicularity of that world being non-functional. So, I don’t hold true that just because Hoid is able to hide from Harmony during the Stormlight Archive (per letters) and in Era2, that he has always been able to hide from all Shards since the moment of the Shattering. I also don’t hold true that if a Shard wanted to prevent interactions with Hoid, that they couldn’t move or change their perpendicularities such that he would effectively be prevented from using them. I’m not sure that any of the Shards would be so petty as to effectuate such a change on their perpendicularities just to spite Hoid—but I don’t rule it out as a possibility just because Hoid at some “middle” state of the cosmere is able to get to Scadrial without Harmony sensing it. That merely proves, to me, that he’s able to hide effectively from Harmony (and possibly Odium/Rayse as he seemingly successfully did that for a number of books on Roshar). I think its entirety in the realm of possibility that a Shard with heightened future sight, such as Cultivation, wouldn’t need, necessarily, to even “sense” his presence on their planet directly, but could read the future and predict where he is likely to appear to such an extent that “sensing” him directly is largely irrelevant.

So, tied in to my semantic discussion of perpendicularities earlier, I think you're right in that Hoid can use some perpendicularities without any say by shards generally. Particularly around Era 2 Mistborn and Stormlight Archive. But the closer in time we are to the Shattering, the more likely, I think, that a Shard would be able to prevent Hoid from using a Shardic Perpendicularity/Shardpool--either by moving it to a location that is difficult to get to or by sealing it off completely. (And as Whitesand is very early in the timeline--we may have seen just that on Taldain).


This all leads me to a refining of the originally posted theory. The point that I was clumsily trying to make is that there is some evidence that Hoid visited "Ancient" Scadrial because of his link to the Worldbringers. If we presuppose that Hoid visited Scadrial at a time while Preservation and Ruin were still working together, and before Preservation "betrayed" their co-operation agreement, then he must have had a reason to do so. We've seen, in text, that Hoid does not always know why he is in a place--but through some sort of "fortune sense" he kind of just appears where he is needed--though this has led him to getting stuck on planets for long stretches of time and in many precasious predicaments. My theory is that if he went to Ancient Scadrial, he was there to do multiple things 1. acquire more magic; 2. do some sort of helpful thing for the cosmere generally or for a person/entity on Ancient Scadrial particularly (whether that is his intent or not, we dont know, but where he shows up he tends to be helpful regardless).

My theory presupposes, that this early in the Cosmere timeline (up to a few hundred years after the Shattering), that Hoid would still have retained possession of his Dawnshard, but would have started feeling more of its effects on his spirit web (using Nomad as a data point by which we can likely draw a parallel). And while he may not trust all the Shards, this early in the timeline he could probably trust Preservation most out of any of them. This is because Preservation's Power (Intent) as a shard can likely be trusted to maintain the status quo.

Quote

Josh

Is Preservation is a force of stability?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it's unchangingness. It's the opposite of Ruin.

West Jordan signing (Aug. 4, 2011)

Not only can Preservation's Power likely be trusted, but Preservation's future sight is particularly strong, which could eliminate trust completely from our equation. Hoid is a known drafter of Shardic oaths/contracts--as he felt comfortable doing so with Odium of all shards (multiple times, I might add). I assume that his expertise therein had to have originated somewhere and with some amount of practice. Thus, I find it completely feasible that Hoid could draft a contract/oath between himself and Preservation, relying on the Shard's Power(Intent), future sight, and self-preservation instinct to ensure that were Hoid to give the Dawnshard to Preservation for safekeeping, that the Dawnshard WOULD be protected for some amount of time.

We know that Preservation hid some "weapon" on Scadrial--he says so to Kelsier in Secret History:
 

Quote

I needed a sign,” Fuzz whispered, stopping near Kelsier. “Something he couldn’t change. A sign of the weapon I’d buried.

I think that there are only so many things that Preservation/Leras would consider a "weapon." And a Dawnshard is definitely something that all the vessels would think of as a weapon--as they used it particularly for that purpose. Moreover, the sign Fuzz is referring to is the number 16, a number tied intrinsically to the Dawnshards that created the 16 shards during the Shattering.

I agree that in the wrong hands, a Dawnshard can be used to disastrous effect by a Shard with ill-Intent. But that point is counterbalanced with the thought that in the right hands, a Dawnshard can be used to ensure that Preservation wins its struggle against Ruin. I agree that Hoid isn't foolhardy, and wouldn't give up a Dawnshard if he thought there were a chance Ruin could find it or use it. But in the hypothetical I've presented here, I think I've made a solid case for why trusting Preservation with the safekeeping of a Dawnshard on Scadrial is not necessarily foolhardy or risky. At minimum we have an entire Era1 of books that showcase that Preservation was correct, that his futuresight was so strong as to be able to accurately plan against the machinations of another Shard over eons and in spite of diminishment. I think a Dawnshard being hidden on planet is the only thing that explains Preservation being able to plan a betrayal and victory in the first place--without something extra the shards are "balanced" in power and Preservation is diminished by the extra Investiture he put in Scadrians. Thus the original co-operation agreement comes to fulfillment and Ati gets to destroy their creation.

But with "Survive" as a Dawnshard, Preservation can know ahead of time that his message will survive across the eons in spite of Ruin's interference. Preservation knows that his creations will Survive. And Hoid knows that a Dawnshard is kept secret, kept safe, and kept far away from his spirit web for some predetermined amount of time.

Further, as we know that the Terris prophecies written by Preservation before the "betrayal" of the co-operation agreement with Ati/Ruin are truth, and that they predicted not only Sazed's ascencion as Harmony, but his corruption into Discord, then it seems to me that Hoid putting trust in an non-Fuzzed Leras/Preservation, would have not only been a safe bet, but a winning bet.

 

Edited November 15 by Leonpaintbrush

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

Firstly, I’m not sure that we know with absolute certainty that Preservation actually said anything at all.

This argument falls flat as Preservation straight up said 'remember what I told you - SURVIVE" and Kelsier recognised this as the voice he heard in the Pits. So yes, this is the confirmation Preservation spoke to Kelsier in the Pits, when he became a Mistborn. While Preservation can't talk to people like Ruin can, there are some circumstances which allow him to do the same - Vin was able to talk to Elend, Kelsier could talk to Spook. Leras was able to say that to Kelsier because Kelsier was on the verge of death and the bounds between realms were weakened.

Spoiler

RoboChrist

Did Kelsier really hear Preservation's voice telling him to Survive when he was in the pits of Hathsin? Or was it Ruin pretending to be Preservation?

If it was Preservation, does that mean Kelsier died in the pits? Or were there special circumstances that allowed Kelsier to hear Preservation's voice without dying?

Brandon Sanderson

Special things often happen in the cosmere when someone is very close to death, or undergoing intense pain (either physical or emotional.) Barriers between the realms weaken.

I can confirm that the Kelsier who left the pits was not a Cognitive Shadow.

Phantine

Could he have become a Shadow using the pits if he died immediately after snapping?

Brandon Sanderson

Possibly.

General Reddit 2017 (Aug. 28, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Sixty-Four

"You did well, Spook."

Yes, that's Kelsier's voice at the beginning. As I said in a previous annotation, he can't help but meddle.

There is an afterlife in this cosmology I've built, and Kelsier's in it. He never has been able to leave well enough alone. He saw, here, that a piece of the puzzle needed to be put together, so he stepped in and tried to get through to Spook about it.

Spook was the only one in the crew he could speak to. That's because Spook truly has faith in Kelsier as a deity—which, for these few weeks between Preservation's death and the coming of the Hero of Ages, Kelsier is.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (March 9, 2010)

 

1 hour ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

Some Words of Brandon have suggested that when the voice of a Shard that is “heard” by a person it is not a direct statement from the Shard, but is the subject’s mental interpretation of an impression that the Shard is sending.

But this WoB still tells you that Ruin is sending non-specific signals to Zane, so even if that was the case with Kelsier, it was still Preservation that sent him the signal, which Kelsier interpreted as SURVIVE.

1 hour ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

Secondly, it has long been held and supported both by the texts of Mistborn Era1 and by WoBs that it is Ruin that can speak, and Preservation that can listen.

Quote

kilomtrs
So in the trilogy, we see that when someone has a Hemalurgic spike implanted in them, they can hear Ruin talking to them, both as a vision and in their head. However, we learn in the Hero of Ages that Ruin cannot hear a person's thoughts no matter how much under Ruin's influence they are.
In Alloy of Law, we see that Wax (and other Pathians) uses an earring to "pray" to Harmony, and we see that Harmony can hear his thoughts and respond.
So I guess this leads to three questions: How does Harmony hear the thoughts of Wax, when it's explicitly pointed put that Ruin cannot?
Are the earrings that the Pathians use Hemalurgically charged, as otherwise they would be of no use to Ruin, and therefore Harmony?
Or did Harmony completely change how that aspect of Hemalugy works?

Brandon Sanderson
How this all works dates back to the original design of the magic system.
I wanted Ruin and Preservation to be complementary opposites, like many things in the Mistborn world. Allomancy, for example, has Pushes and Pulls were are less "negate one another" opposites, but instead two sides to the same proverbial coin.
Ruin is invasive. The power is more "Yell" than "Listen." The philosopher would probably have some interesting things to say about the masculine symbolism of Hemalurgy and its spikes.
Ruin can insert thoughts. That power, however, can't HEAR the reactions. It's about invasion.
Preservation, however, is the opposite. Preservation listens, Preservation protects. (Perhaps to a fault--if there were no Ruin, there would be no change to the world, and life could not exist.) Because of this, Preservation can hear what is inside people's minds. It cannot, however, INSERT thoughts. (This is important to the plot of Hero of Ages.)
Harmony is both, the two complementary opposites combined. And so, he inserts thoughts with Ruin and still uses Hemalurgy. He can also listen.
Yes, Wax's earring is Invested. (Or, in other terms, it's a Hemalurgic spike.)

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/193/#e4156

Expand  

Thus, Preservation “speaking” to Kelsier during the snapping seems to break a fundamental rule that we’ve been told, and shown, is fairly sacrosanct.

I've said it already, we had Vin talking to Elend, Kelsier talking to Spook and WoB explaining why Preservation was able to speak to Kelsier in the Pits. 

1 hour ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

Thirdly, we see snapping multiple times in Era1, particularly with the return of the Deepness in books 2 and 3 of the trilogy, and not once does anyone else on Scadrial mention hearing a voice telling them to “Survive.” This makes Kelsier’s snapping stand out, in stark juxtaposition, from every other snapping for which we have descriptions.

Because this isn't something that happens and nobody else was as vital to Preservation's plans as Kelsier or Vin. In the case of Kelsier this was a special thing as he was close to death and Snapping allowed him to survive and execute Preservation's plan. Without Kelsier, Ruin would have won. Why does it all matter when Preservation confirmed it was him?

1 hour ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

Fourthly, when asked directly the question of who was speaking to Kelsier during his snap, Brandon did not give a direct answer:

The last part of the question is what Brandon is answering. 

1 hour ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

Fifthly, by the time Kelsier encounters Preservation/Leras, the shard is in a highly diminished state. If there is a comparison to be had between the depiction of Fuzz in Secret History and the depiction of Honor in Stormlight Archive directly prior to and subsequent to the Recreance, it is plausible that Fuzz has become obsessed with concepts that parallel or inform his original Intent/Plan while lacking context for their importance or significance. We know that when Honor was being slowly shattered, that he became more obsessed with the saying of Oaths, but not their context, and with Dawnshards in particular as a harbinger of destruction/calamity. If Fuzz's breakdown parallels Honor's at all, I find it plausible, if not entirely likely that he too has become hyperfixated on certain "key words" that represent elements of his plan to betray and eventually win against Ruin, but lacks almost all the context or significance behind the words.

It's not that a Shard is fixated on some words, Vessels are overrun by Shard's intent. Honor became fixated on Oaths and upkeeping them, not on their meaning like he used to, Preservation was fixated on upkeeping the status quo, to the point where he admired Rashek who killed so many people. Unlike Honor, Preservation didn't rage and shout some vague threats, his mind was long dead and that was the difference between Honor's death and Preservation's one. Preservation used his mind to create Ruin's prison and that killed him, the power and the rest of the Vessel was slowly fading, while Honor was killed by Odium without losing his mind. Leres being fixated on the concept of stasis doesn't in any way mean that he would just lie for no reason in the most important moment of his death.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Fifty-Five

Elend Sees the Mist Spirit

Elend really does have a lot of faith in Vin, even if he doesn't worship her. He ascribes an almost supernatural power to her. And, I can kind of see why he would. In these books, Vin's almost less of a character and more a force. Like Ruin and Preservation, in a way.

Regardless, this chapter is about Elend giving up—then finding his hope again. I bring the mist spirit back here for a final appearance, but I wanted to be careful not to have it give too much information to Elend. Not because I don't want the information itself to get out, but because the mist spirit hasn't been a presence in this book, and so I haven't foreshadowed it enough. Therefore, if it simply showed up and gave a bunch of answers, I think that would feel cheap to the reader.

The mist spirit is, as the next epigraph explains, the remnants of Preservation's mind. I don't delve into it too much in this book, even the epigraphs, but Preservation's consciousness is indeed separate from his power. However, his consciousness itself has a limited power. And that is what he used to bind Ruin.

That did not weaken his power, which still protects the world. Instead, it cost him his mind, leaving behind only a faint shadow—like the mists' memory of Preservation, far removed from what he had once been.

That consciousness attached to Preservation—like the one attached to Ruin—is a part of Adonalsium, which will eventually be explained. Suffice it to say that in a pinch, Preservation could draw upon the power of his own mind and use it to imprison Ruin. This was why he was able to pull of the trick, as Ruin wasn't expecting it. He might have anticipated an attack using Preservation's power, but not his mind—not knowing what burning his own mind would do.

That is why Preservation's cage captured Ruin's own mind, but not his power.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Jan. 19, 2010)

 

1 hour ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

a Perpendicularity of a shard can effectively be sealed off if using it would put the user in the power or control of a Shard sealed within it, as is the case with the Well of Ascension late in Era1 and Ruin.

That's not a standard use of Perpendicularity, the Well was speifically design to serve that purpouse. The Well was special, allowing people to Ascend and tap the power of the Shard which was concentrated in that spot. The Well was sending such strong pulses that even normal Seekers could sense when it was full at the end (there was a WoB on that, I can't find it now) - Ruin's perpendicularity was silent on the other hand (at least for most, in the alternate ending of WoA Vin could hear it).

1 hour ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

I certainly don’t agree that a Shardic Perpendicularity is completely independent from its Shard

Generally independent. Creating of Perpendicularities is another thing. Autonomy is the exception, no other Shard showed such great deal of control over their Perpendicularity. Plus we don't know how she blocks access to Taldain - as I said, it can be as simple as loyal guards on both sides of Taldain's Perpendicularity. Apparently she used some kind of natural processes, which probably involves messing with her Perpendicularity in some Realmathic way.

Spoiler

LeFlshe

How did Autonomy isolate Taldain from the rest of the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

All of the Shards... "How"? "How" may be the wrong term.

Adam Horne

There's a followup question, maybe it's related. "Did Bavadin remove the perpendicularity on Taldain?"

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO on the second one. First one, natural processes.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

All your points about Perpendicularity don't really matter, your original post was about "Preservation letting Hoid use his Perpendicularity" or "Ruin not wanting to have anything to do with Hoid" and that's what I was disputing. Generally it doesn't work like that and we have no reasons to believe that Preservation did something special with his Perpendicularity. He didn't have to, it was likely closed for the majority of the time, when it was not full (or mostly full). Once full Preservation didn't know that Hoid used it in SH, only when Kelsier told him he knew. And SH once again proves that Preservation didn't block or close his Perpendicularity like Autonomy did (I doubt he could do that, Ruin's power would oppose every action of his, including this one).

He could use any perpendicularity that was closer to his goal, as he can hide from Shards, and Shards wouldn't know he was using their Shardpool. Of course if he wanted to be spotted, he could just drop his protections and expose himself to Leras, like he did in RoW with Rayse. That's what I was trying to say, all this stuff about perpendicularity doesn't matter to your theory. 

1 hour ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

I would agree, however, that not all Perpendicularities are Shardic, and thus there can exist in the cosmere a number of Perpendicularities that are “independent.”

That's not at all what I was talking about. 

1 hour ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

I think this depends completely on one's interpretation of “back then.”

You said "Classical Scadrial" and that's the time before Rashek's Ascension, when Ruin was already imprisoned. You defined what kind of "back then" we're talking about, and that's what I was talking about. I'm confused, I don't know why discussing "a time where Ruin wasn't imprisoned" matters in the context of your original post. Yes, sure there was a time where they were both free and alive, and could influence stuff, like their perpendicularities. But back then there was no Atium - Atium was created as the result of Preservation Splintering a piece of Ruin and locking it away from him. It's also very likely that there was no Lerasium back then, as we have no idea from where did it came from. If you're trying to suggest that Hoid was a Feruchemist for 10000 years or so then this makes even less sense. Hoid in WoA went to Terris people to learn more about Feruchemy, which would made no sense if he had it for 10000 years by this time. 

Spoiler

Lance Alvein (paraphrased)

You've said that "The Pits of Hathsin were crafted by Preservation as a place to hide the chunk of Ruin's body that he had stolen away". How does one Shard steal a portion of another Shard and create a Physical outlet for it, like the Pits were for Ruin's power?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It has to do with clash between the two Shards' power. When pressed, he then said that it was "kind of" like splintering

Hal-Con 2012 (Oct. 30, 2012)

Thus going back to your point of Hoid using Ruin's perpendicularity - he already did that, that's how he got to Scadrial in TFE. That's why he had to use the Well later, as he couldn't use the Pits. Ruin's imprisonment would guarantee total safety of passage, and there was a whole trade thing build around Ruin's Perpendicularity. 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Hey, all. Brandon here. With the release of this book, there have been some minor updates to continuity that I think some of you will find relevant.The big one has to do with Hoid's visit to Terris in The Well of Ascension. For those unfamiliar with the backstory, this little behind-the-scenes action has been a source of some consistent problems. The outline, and original draft, of Well had Vin and Elend traveling up to Terris, then into the mountains, to find the Well itself.

This was a huge momentum killer in the story. Having your cityscape-focused book suddenly turn into a traveling quest fantasy for a few chapters felt very out of place, and required too much strange time-jumping to make it work. In revisions, I set about finding a way to repair this, and to overlap the Well of Ascension discovery with Vin's return to Luthadel.

The end result worked much better, but I was forced to cut Hoid's cameo. (In the form of footsteps in the snow and frost leading to the Well, hinting that someone had been there just before her.) I knew where Hoid was, and added in the cameo of him with the Terris people—with the plan still being that he visited the Well sometime during the days after Vin's return to the city.

Well, in working on Secret History, I found that this had a problem with it. Hoid had to already know where the Well is, because after the destruction of the Pits, he'd need to use the Well to return to Scadrial after leaving in the middle of book one to attend to certain other events.If you've read the story, you know this is how I proceeded. Official continuity is that Hoid went up to Terris after visiting the Well, as he had things to do there. He did not go looking for the Well. This doesn't change continuity for any of the books, though it does render one of the annotations for Well obsolete.

Otherwise, I'm quite pleased about this novella. I wasn't certain how it would go, writing something using threads I'd left dangling ten years ago. (You should thank the beta readers, who are all Sharders I believe, for their continuity help. They made me aware pf several things I needed to make much more clear from the original draft, so that canon would be more crisp.)

I know there has been a lot of discussion regarding which times when someone appears to hear Kelsier's voice were actually Kelsier. The story offers the official canon for this as well.

It's nice to finally be able to give the answers to some longtime fan questions, such as what spooked Vin during her inspection of Hoid and what was up with Preservation and the Mist Spirit. It's entirely possible that, despite our efforts, we slipped up and made some continuity error here or there. If so, I'm terribly sorry! This one has been particularly challenging to do.

Mistborn: Secret History Continuity Notes (Jan. 27, 2016)

And this WoB states that Hoid was just researching if there is a possibility of getting Feruchemy - which would make no sense if he had it for 10000 years, or even a 1000 years, right before Rashek's Ascension. Your reason for why Hoid would go to Classical Scadrial doesn't hold up.

Spoiler

yurisses

Can you tell us a little bit about what Hoid was up to in Terris in The Well of Ascension?

Brandon Sanderson

He was hunting for the Well of Ascension.

yurisses

In the new continuity, he already knew where the Well was, because he used it to come back to--

Brandon Sanderson

Right, we changed the continuity, didn't we. Yeah. Oh boy. We came up with an explanation of this, because when we wrote the book-- Yeah, why don't you send me an email on that one. Now that I have the conversation with Peter, he brought that one up when I finally got around to Secret History. That was one of our big casualties. What did I come up with? I think he was just really, really-- I will have to-- because I canonzied it to Peter. We're gonna have to go to Peter and say "What's in the wiki now?" Yeah, that was one of the big casualties, and the fact that I couldn't get Kelsier to one of the places where I had left foreshadowing for him to speak in someone's head, and I can't remember what that one was, either.

yurisses

Oh, that one was Sazed, you said it was his imagination.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, I had to make that his imagination. Because I just couldn't get people where they needed to go. This is the problem with writing an outline, then writing a book, and then writing another book so many years later. Certain things, we just can't work into the continuity. Write us an email, we'll get you the official continuity for that one. Because Peter did nail me down when we were working on the book.

Peter Ahlstrom

After Hoid got the bead during the scene in Secret History, he went north to Terris to do research on possibly acquiring Feruchemy. While he’s there, all hell breaks loose, and he ends up embroiled in helping the Terris people.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

2 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

So, I don’t hold true that just because Hoid is able to hide from Harmony during the Stormlight Archive (per letters) and in Era2, that he has always been able to hide from all Shards since the moment of the Shattering.

Endowment is the only one that we know of who was able to notice him. He can hide even from Autonomy, who hates him. Preservation didn't, as seen in SH, Ruin as well, as he didn't react to him in SH/HoA. Therefore yes, Hoid is able to successfully hide his presence from Shards on Scadrial. 

2 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

I think its entirety in the realm of possibility that a Shard with heightened future sight, such as Cultivation, wouldn’t need, necessarily, to even “sense” his presence on their planet directly, but could read the future and predict where he is likely to appear to such an extent that “sensing” him directly is largely irrelevant.

Hoid has his own way of seeing the future, he can use Fortune to predict where he needs to be. That would cloud Shardic future vision, as we saw with Renarin and Odium.

2 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

But the closer in time we are to the Shattering, the more likely, I think, that a Shard would be able to prevent Hoid from using a Shardic Perpendicularity/Shardpool

There is literally nothing to say this would be the case. Yes, they can move it etc, but there is nothing to suggest that Hoid back then would be unable to hide as he is now. 

2 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

And while he may not trust all the Shards, this early in the timeline he could probably trust Preservation most out of any of them.
[...]
Not only can Preservation's Power likely be trusted, but Preservation's future sight is particularly strong, which could eliminate trust completely from our equation. Hoid is a known drafter of Shardic oaths/contracts--as he felt comfortable doing so with Odium of all shards (multiple times, I might add). I assume that his expertise therein had to have originated somewhere and with some amount of practice. Thus, I find it completely feasible that Hoid could draft a contract/oath between himself and Preservation, relying on the Shard's Power(Intent), future sight, and self-preservation instinct to ensure that were Hoid to give the Dawnshard to Preservation for safekeeping, that the Dawnshard WOULD be protected for some amount of time.

Why? No. It's not about trusting Shard's power, Hoid doesn't treat Shards as mere powers, he treats them as people they used to be before the Shattering, and refers to them by their Vessel's names. This is further confirmed by the 6th SA letter:

Quote

You say that the power itself must be treated as separate in our minds from the Vessel who controls it. [...]
However, you seem more afraid of the Vessel. 

We have no idea what relations he had with Leras prior to the Shattering, but judging from the comment made by Leras, they weren't on good terms, Leras certainly didn't trust him and I doubt he would be willing to make a deal with Hoid. Leras clearly shared Edgli's view on Hoid and wished he would stop interfering in Shardic affairs. SH ch 2-1:

Quote

“Aaah . . .” Fuzz said softly. “I had thought that when he rejected the rest of us, he would stop interfering. I should know better than to trust an implication from him. Half the time you can’t trust his outright promises. . . .”

 

2 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

We know that Preservation hid some "weapon" on Scadrial--he says so to Kelsier in Secret History:
 

Quote

I needed a sign,” Fuzz whispered, stopping near Kelsier. “Something he couldn’t change. A sign of the weapon I’d buried.

You should have quoted the whole thing...

Quote

“I needed a sign,” Fuzz whispered, stopping near Kelsier. “Something he couldn’t change. A sign of the weapon I’d buried. The boiling point of water, I think. Maybe its freezing point? But what if the units change over the years? I needed something that would be remembered always. Something they’ll immediately recognize.” He leaned in. “Sixteen.”
“Six . . . teen?” Kelsier said.
“Sixteen.” Fuzz grinned. “Clever, don’t you think?”
“Because it means . . .”
“The number of metals,” Fuzz said. “In Allomancy.”
“There are ten. Eleven, if you count the one I discovered.”
“No! No, no, that’s stupid. Sixteen. It’s the perfect number. They’ll see. They have to see.” Fuzz started pacing again, and his head returned— mostly—to its earlier state.

It's about Mistsnapping. That's the weapon that ultimately led Elend to burn all Atium away and win.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

The Number Sixteen

I worry that having Vin make this connection is one of the more forced events in the book. She'd just finished telling everyone that she wasn't a scholar, and now she discovers a pattern of numbers hidden in the statistics of how people fall sick? My original intention for this was to have her be in a mind-set where she was looking for natural rules—because of her earlier discussion of Ruin and his rules—which then allowed her to see this pattern.

Rereading it, I'm not 100% pleased with it, but it's too late to make a change. I'd probably rewrite it so that Noorden or Elend make the connection, then let Vin connect that to what she's been thinking about. That would have been a much more natural progression.

Note that here, Vin misunderstands what these numbers mean. She's looking for rules that bind Ruin. What she finds is not that, but instead a clue left by Preservation. Numbers are understandable to people regardless of language, and so Preservation decided to leave some clues for people to discover that would hopefully lead them to follow the plans he'd set in motion. In my prewriting, I'd intended there to be more hard facts to be discovered in the workings of the universe—numbers hidden in mathematical statistics that said rational things, like the boiling point of water or the like. All as a means of Preservation hinting to humankind that there was a plan for them.

In the end, this didn't work out. I decided it would be overly complicated and that it would just be too technical to work in this particular novel. The only remnant of that plot arc became the number sixteen that Preservation embedded into the way the mistsickness works, intending it to give a clue about what the mists are doing to people. "You now are Allomancers!" is what this was supposed to scream. Unfortunately, the Lord Ruler's obfuscation of Allomancy—and the number of metals in it—left this clue to fall flat.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Sept. 3, 2009)

 

2 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

And a Dawnshard is definitely something that all the vessels would think of as a weapon--as they used it particularly for that purpose.

Yeah, no. If Preservation had a Dawnshard, Ruin would be in so much trouble. Imprisonment would be the last of his concerns. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Odium has a history of breaking Shards. In order to do that, it feels like he must have something that gives him an edge over the other Shards. I’m curious if Odium (Taravangian) possesses anything further than the Shard of Adonalsium?

Brandon Sanderson

He does not have anything more than Odium. But he does have an edge.

Questioner

Like a Dawnshard?

Brandon Sanderson

Not a Dawnshard. No, if he had a Dawnshard, that would be very, very bad.

Footnote: Later in this Q&A, Brandon emphasized that Ruin had an "edge" over Preservation due to their power imbalance.
Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

3 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

I agree that Hoid isn't foolhardy, and wouldn't give up a Dawnshard if he thought there were a chance Ruin could find it or use it.  I think I've made a solid case for why trusting Preservation with the safekeeping of a Dawnshard on Scadrial is not necessarily foolhardy or risky.

Leaving a Dawnshard in the hands of a dead Shard is nothing but foolish and risky. Even if Hoid left his Dawnshard before Ruin's imprisonment, leaving it there under "protection" of the dead Shard would be foolish as well. Hoid should go back and relocate it to make sure it won't fall into Ruin's hands. Leaving any Dawnshard in the hands of any Shard is just a very bad idea.

3 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

At minimum we have an entire Era1 of books that showcase that Preservation was correct, that his futuresight was so strong as to be able to accurately plan against the machinations of another Shard over eons and in spite of diminishment.

Future isn't set in metal. There were so many things that could have gone wrong and let Ruin win, that it would be really bad to leave a Dawnshard on Scadrial. 

3 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

I think a Dawnshard being hidden on planet is the only thing that explains Preservation being able to plan a betrayal and victory in the first place--without something extra the shards are "balanced" in power and Preservation is diminished by the extra Investiture he put in Scadrians.

I strongly disagree. Preservation was better at seeing the future than Ruin, not every Shard was good at this, Honor is another example. Preservation didn't use his power to imprison Ruin, that would be countered, but his mind - something that Ruin didn't predict and couldn't counter. There is no need for any Dawnshard here.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Fifty-Five

Elend Sees the Mist Spirit

Elend really does have a lot of faith in Vin, even if he doesn't worship her. He ascribes an almost supernatural power to her. And, I can kind of see why he would. In these books, Vin's almost less of a character and more a force. Like Ruin and Preservation, in a way.

Regardless, this chapter is about Elend giving up—then finding his hope again. I bring the mist spirit back here for a final appearance, but I wanted to be careful not to have it give too much information to Elend. Not because I don't want the information itself to get out, but because the mist spirit hasn't been a presence in this book, and so I haven't foreshadowed it enough. Therefore, if it simply showed up and gave a bunch of answers, I think that would feel cheap to the reader.

The mist spirit is, as the next epigraph explains, the remnants of Preservation's mind. I don't delve into it too much in this book, even the epigraphs, but Preservation's consciousness is indeed separate from his power. However, his consciousness itself has a limited power. And that is what he used to bind Ruin.

That did not weaken his power, which still protects the world. Instead, it cost him his mind, leaving behind only a faint shadow—like the mists' memory of Preservation, far removed from what he had once been.

That consciousness attached to Preservation—like the one attached to Ruin—is a part of Adonalsium, which will eventually be explained. Suffice it to say that in a pinch, Preservation could draw upon the power of his own mind and use it to imprison Ruin. This was why he was able to pull of the trick, as Ruin wasn't expecting it. He might have anticipated an attack using Preservation's power, but not his mind—not knowing what burning his own mind would do.

That is why Preservation's cage captured Ruin's own mind, but not his power.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Jan. 19, 2010)

 

Spoiler

JamesW

You said that Preservation created the Terris Prophecies. Why couldn't Ruin see into the future and counter Preservation's plan? Is it because Ruin's intent has him focusing more on the present than the future, while Preservation (wanting to preserve forever) looks more into the future for that goal.

Brandon Sanderson

Looking into the future was not something Ruin was good at doing. That ability is confined to certain shards, and not others.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 28, 2012)

 

3 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

Preservation knows that his creations will Survive.

That's not how the future sight works. RoW ch 114:

Quote

“They showed you this possibility, I assume,” Taravangian said, looking at infinity. “But this isn’t nearly as … certain as I imagined it. It shows you things that can happen, but not the hearts of those who act. How did you dare try something like this? How did you know I’d be up to the challenge?”
“I didn’t,” she said. “I couldn’t. You were heading this direction—all I could do was hope that if you succeeded, my gift would work. That I had changed you into someone who could bear this power with honor.”

SH ch 2-4:

Quote

“The ribbons of the future are never as useful as . . . as they should be,” Preservation said. “I rode them much, in the past. It’s too hard to see what is actually likely, and what is just a fragile . . . fragile, distant maybe. . . .”

 

3 hours ago, Leonpaintbrush said:

And Hoid knows that a Dawnshard is kept secret, kept safe, and kept far away from his spirit web for some predetermined amount of time.

Dawnshard being far away from Hoid doesn't protect Hoid at all - as we can see in Sunlit Man, they can track the holders of a Dawnshard by using connections of those who were it before.

Additionally, now I'm not so sure if there is Survival Dawnshard, I will just copy what I've posted somewhere else recently, but this is highly speculative:

Quote

I would argue Survival isn't about not changing or stasis, as to survive one has to change - survival is about adaptation. From the quote it seems like the Change already encompasses this idea. Just look at Era 1, Kelsier had to first adapt to his role as a Mistborn after surviving the Pits of Hathsin, then he had to adapt as a leader of the rebellion and a teacher, Vin has to also adapt to her role of a Mistborn and a spy among nobles. After their success they had to adapt again, and then once more after the release of Ruin - constant adaptation to the ever changing conditions in order to survive. Those who couldn't adapt were the first to die - like Skaa from villages who locked themselves inside when Mist didn't vanish with the sunrise. Even the Shard of Preservation itself had to change to Survive, it had to kill to survive - that's a massive change.

Dawnshard ch 19:

Quote

Storms, she thought. What have I done?
What you needed to, another part of her thought. You have adapted. You have Remade yourself.
It was then that she grasped, in the smallest way, the nature of the Command inside her. The will of a god to remake things, to demand they be better.
The power to change.

 

 

 

[Leonpaintbrush]

Trusting a half dead shard to have told Kelsier the fundamental truths about why he used the number 16 in a plan that he no longer remembers the details of, is certainly a position to take. But I guess we'll agree to disagree on this one.

[Duxredux]

On 11/15/2023 at 11:47 AM, Leonpaintbrush said:

Trusting a half dead shard to have told Kelsier the fundamental truths about why he used the number 16 in a plan that he no longer remembers the details of, is certainly a position to take. But I guess we'll agree to disagree on this one.

A while back someone had the theory that Kelsier gained the same Dawnshard that Hoid had been holder of and that he gained it when Preservation told him to SURVIVE. I'm not going to reference as I don't want to necro that thread, but here's my take on the concept that that Command that Kelsier heard was related to a Dawnshard.

The reason that Preservation can't talk to people is that his very power shores up the cracks in a person's soul. However I think it's possible that Preservation could communicate here by instilling the message in the very power used to bind up Kelsier's broken mind and soul, to survive. It's quite likely that Preservation couldn't communicate any other message, or to someone already sane.

I may have a second instance of this type of heard Command from Preservation to verify the idea. That said, I listen to audio books and I got a really cheap $3 copy of Arcanum Unbounded, so I know in that text it says SURVIVE. Would someone be willing to look up the corresponding section in HoA where Spook saves Urteau? In SH, Kelsier talks to Spook for a time before Spook runs into the burning building, and near the end he draws the power back to himself and Commands Spook to SURVIVE, reinforcing his soul in the process - Spook becoming the Survivor of the Flames as an echo of Kelsier the Survivor of Hathsin. I'm 95% sure on the SH side, but I haven't read a physical copy of HoA in a decade. If I remember correctly this should help indicate if that Command is a specific ability that Preservation could do to shore up broken souls and unrelated to a Dawnshard. Certainly Urteau is far from Hathsin, so it won't be a proximity thing.

[alder24]

13 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Would someone be willing to look up the corresponding section in HoA where Spook saves Urteau?

Here, HoA ch 58:

Quote

He groaned, unable to think anymore. He could simply let the blackness take him. . . .
Her city is burning.
Blackness . . .
Thousands will die in the flames.
The mists tickled his cheeks. In the cacophony, Spook had let his tin dim, relieving him of sensation, leaving him feeling blissfully numb. It was better that way.
You want to be like Kelsier? Really like Kelsier? Then fight when you are beaten!
"Lord Spook!" The voice was faint.
Survive!
With a scream of pain, Spook flared tin. As the metal always did, it brought a wave of sensations—thousands of them, shocking him at once. Pain. Feeling. Hearing. Sounds, smells, lights.
And lucidity.

SH ch 6-5:

Quote

“Spook,” Kelsier whispered, touching Spook’s soul with his own again. He choked on the words, but forced them out. “Spook, her city is burning.”
Spook trembled.
“Thousands will die in the flames,” Kelsier whispered. He touched the boy’s cheek. “Spook, child. You want to be like me? Really like me? Then fight when you are beaten!”
[...]
Kelsier looked down at the child in his arms. No, not a child any longer. He opened himself to Spook, and spoke a single, all-powerful command.
“Survive!”
Spook screamed, burning his metal, startling himself to lucidity. Kelsier stood up, triumphant. Spook lurched to his knees, his spirit strengthening.

Annotations explaining that:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Sixty-Four

"You did well, Spook."

Yes, that's Kelsier's voice at the beginning. As I said in a previous annotation, he can't help but meddle.

There is an afterlife in this cosmology I've built, and Kelsier's in it. He never has been able to leave well enough alone. He saw, here, that a piece of the puzzle needed to be put together, so he stepped in and tried to get through to Spook about it.

Spook was the only one in the crew he could speak to. That's because Spook truly has faith in Kelsier as a deity—which, for these few weeks between Preservation's death and the coming of the Hero of Ages, Kelsier is.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (March 9, 2010)

 

 

I've missed that in SH Kelsier said it as a command.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 11/23/2023 at 6:49 PM, Duxredux said:

The reason that Preservation can't talk to people is that his very power shores up the cracks in a person's soul. However I think it's possible that Preservation could communicate here by instilling the message in the very power used to bind up Kelsier's broken mind and soul, to survive. It's quite likely that Preservation couldn't communicate any other message, or to someone already sane.

I've been thinking about an idea sort of adjacent to this (sort of, mainly in that it offers a way for it to be related without being directly the Dawnshard itself). It's a pretty common theory that the Shards and Dawnshards are related in some way, which is a line of thinking Brandon has encouraged. If this is true, and if "Survive" is one of the Commands, it seems pretty likely that Preservation would be associated with that one. So perhaps it's simply the fundamental Command underlying Preservation shining through, potentially related to the way Shu-Korath and Shu-Dereth focus on "unity" as their fundamental tenet rather than the names of Devotion or Dominion? (Though Shu-Keseg and its descendants are weird in general because they first appear so late after the Splintering of the Selish Shards yet line up so well.)

[Elegy]

3 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I've been thinking about an idea sort of adjacent to this (sort of, mainly in that it offers a way for it to be related without being directly the Dawnshard itself). It's a pretty common theory that the Shards and Dawnshards are related in some way, which is a line of thinking Brandon has encouraged. If this is true, and if "Survive" is one of the Commands, it seems pretty likely that Preservation would be associated with that one. So perhaps it's simply the fundamental Command underlying Preservation shining through, potentially related to the way Shu-Korath and Shu-Dereth focus on "unity" as their fundamental tenet rather than the names of Devotion or Dominion? (Though Shu-Keseg and its descendants are weird in general because they first appear so late after the Splintering of the Selish Shards yet line up so well.)

I agree with this and generally the idea that Survive can be the Dawnshard without it being directly important for Kelsier and Scadrial. One possibility: Leras held the Dawnshard once (he seems to be on good terms with Hoid) before he held the Shard, and the Command significantly influenced his spiritweb then and therefore his definition of the Shard - so him using the Command when talking to Kelsier could be a symptom of that.

Whatever the case, I'm almost positive that Kelsier has never been a Dawnshard (for a notable amount of time), since there still are no significant changes to his spiritweb that can't be clearly traced back to another reason (him being a cognitive shadow, mostly).

I also agree with the implication of Devotion and Dominion (and Honor) being part of Unity and Preservation being part of Survival - and the same I said about Leras could be true about Tanavast, the Command given to Dalinar not being the Dawnshard itself but influenced by it.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

7 hours ago, Elegy said:

Whatever the case, I'm almost positive that Kelsier has never been a Dawnshard (for a notable amount of time), since there still are no significant changes to his spiritweb that can't be clearly traced back to another reason (him being a cognitive shadow, mostly).

Even then I could buy us just not having seen the effects yet, but that still wouldn't answer how he got it without raising the other questions above about if Leras had access, and I have a hard time seeing Kelsier giving up a god-killer weapon to Hoid in time for Hoid to give it to Sigzil. (My current wild guess is that Frost has it and will bring it over in Book Five, based on a couple odd wordings, but most likely Hoid just has it tucked away somewhere or even bears it still.)