Why are the Torments different?

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

Just what the topic says. Hoid and Nomad's Torments don't act the same. They are similar for sure, but for a while there, Nomad couldn't touch anything he perceived as a weapon. Hoid carries a sword around on Roshar, and even hands it to people at various points. At one point, he hands it to Jasnah knowing she'll kill someone with it. I am not sure, at the moment, of other distinct differences, but there probably are others.

Is this just Hoid being Hoid? He's 10,000+ years old and can sculpt his perception in ways to get around his Torment? 

[The Sibling she/her]

 

1 hour ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Is this just Hoid being Hoid? He's 10,000+ years old and can sculpt his perception in ways to get around his Torment? 

There is a WoB that might explain it

Spoiler

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Brandon Sanderson

Let's talk about the Torment for a second. Hoid would not call what has happened to him a Torment. Hoid, by holding a Dawnshard, was made permanently unable to cause physical harm to other beings. Eating meat makes him nauseous (if he is somehow able to eat it, and a lot of the times he just can't). That is because of the nature of the Dawnshard that he held actively warping and changing his spirit. He would not name it this. Nomad has named what has happened to him, a Torment. This is not a term that you can universally apply as a magical aspect of something. This is Sigzil saying "this terrible thing happened to me". And indeed what is happening to Sigzil is on a level beyond what happened to Hoid. So therefore perhaps other arcanists would say, "Yes, these are an aspect of holding a Dawnshard and Torment is the right way", but that word is loaded. That word has meaning, and someone is naming it this. You are not gonna run into a large set of people- there are only four Dawnshards- and you're not gonna run into a large set of people that have held one, so there may be no consensus even in-world to what these are called, and if they are Torment or blessings or what they are. Holding a Dawnshard will warp your soul. It's so much Investiture, it is so powerful, that you cannot hold one even briefly without it having a permanent effect upon you. 

Sorry the formatting is weird

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

1 hour ago, The Sibling said:

 

There is a WoB that might explain it

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Brandon Sanderson

Let's talk about the Torment for a second. Hoid would not call what has happened to him a Torment. Hoid, by holding a Dawnshard, was made permanently unable to cause physical harm to other beings. Eating meat makes him nauseous (if he is somehow able to eat it, and a lot of the times he just can't). That is because of the nature of the Dawnshard that he held actively warping and changing his spirit. He would not name it this. Nomad has named what has happened to him, a Torment. This is not a term that you can universally apply as a magical aspect of something. This is Sigzil saying "this terrible thing happened to me". And indeed what is happening to Sigzil is on a level beyond what happened to Hoid. So therefore perhaps other arcanists would say, "Yes, these are an aspect of holding a Dawnshard and Torment is the right way", but that word is loaded. That word has meaning, and someone is naming it this. You are not gonna run into a large set of people- there are only four Dawnshards- and you're not gonna run into a large set of people that have held one, so there may be no consensus even in-world to what these are called, and if they are Torment or blessings or what they are. Holding a Dawnshard will warp your soul. It's so much Investiture, it is so powerful, that you cannot hold one even briefly without it having a permanent effect upon you. 

Sorry the formatting is weird

Now i am curious as to why something is happening to Sigzil that is 

 

Spoiler

"a level beyond what happened to Hoid"

 

[TheoreticalMagic]

Given that its been well-established that as much as the Shards influence the personality of their vessels over time, the vessel's initial personality can influence or at least act as a filter that interprets the Shard's Intent in a way distinct to that individual - with it being stated that two different vessels would exhibit or act upon the same Shard's Intent in different ways.....it makes sense to me that holders of the Dawnshards might similarly have their Dawnshard's Intent or nature influence them in somewhat different ways, distinct to each individual's personality or character traits.

Like two individuals who've held the same Dawnshard, like Hoid and Sigzil, would both be altered by the experience in ways that fall under the same UMBRELLA of possible effects, thematic to or stemming from that specific Dawnshard's nature....but because of the differences in their own personalities and behaviors and worldviews....the lens through which the Dawnshard's power and influence on the universe beyond them (and upon them as well) is focused....any two different holders of the same Dawnshard might be altered by that experience to different degrees or with different benefits or restrictions. 

One man's trash is another man's treasure kinda thing....what's a Torment to one man might be a minor nuisance to another, and vice versa.

[Guest]

23 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Now i am curious as to why something is happening to Sigzil that is 

 

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"a level beyond what happened to Hoid"

 

 

If we combine it with the restriction the Sleepless put on Rysn in "Dawnshard", I think Sigzil being a Knight Radiant at the time he gained the Dawnshard is a large part of it as we don't know how Invested Hoid was when he held the Dawnshard.  Combine that with the stresses Sigzil was under while holding the Dawnshard, and the part about the Dawnshard burning any/all Investiture to protect itself, and I suspect the answer is that the amount a Soul can be rearranged is limited by the available external Investiture

[Elegy he/him]

On 11/7/2023 at 5:40 PM, The Sibling said:

 

There is a WoB that might explain it

  Hide contents

Secret Project #4 Reveal and Livestream (March 29, 2022)
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Brandon Sanderson

Let's talk about the Torment for a second. Hoid would not call what has happened to him a Torment. Hoid, by holding a Dawnshard, was made permanently unable to cause physical harm to other beings. Eating meat makes him nauseous (if he is somehow able to eat it, and a lot of the times he just can't). That is because of the nature of the Dawnshard that he held actively warping and changing his spirit. He would not name it this. Nomad has named what has happened to him, a Torment. This is not a term that you can universally apply as a magical aspect of something. This is Sigzil saying "this terrible thing happened to me". And indeed what is happening to Sigzil is on a level beyond what happened to Hoid. So therefore perhaps other arcanists would say, "Yes, these are an aspect of holding a Dawnshard and Torment is the right way", but that word is loaded. That word has meaning, and someone is naming it this. You are not gonna run into a large set of people- there are only four Dawnshards- and you're not gonna run into a large set of people that have held one, so there may be no consensus even in-world to what these are called, and if they are Torment or blessings or what they are. Holding a Dawnshard will warp your soul. It's so much Investiture, it is so powerful, that you cannot hold one even briefly without it having a permanent effect upon you. 

Sorry the formatting is weird

I actually really like the idea of Torments and Blessings as arcanist's terms for the Invested Arts' powers and limitations. We have established the Blessings in a hemalurgical sense with the Kandra anyway, so thinking about it more broadly (which seems to be the tendency with cosmere terms anyway) feels very intuitive to me. The power over the surges would be an example for a Blessing, the incapability for most to leave the system a Torment. Depending on the person, the oaths can be seen as Torments (depending on how much they feel they limit them personally). And the Reod would have turned Blessings of the Elantrians into Torments in the most literal sense.

Idk, I find it compelling to have in-world terms for these storytelling principles that Brandon has talked about so much, as in limitations being more important for a story than powers aka Sanderson's 2nd Law (so Torments make a good story, not necessarily the Blessings).

Edited November 9, 2023 by Elegy

[Onironte he/him]

 

I don't know to what extent Hoid was invested, because I haven't found when he acquired his peculiar abilities with connection and fortune.
It seems strange to me how different the side effects are from having been Dawnshard:
Hoid is immortal, with a strong healing factor, maybe the Dawnshard also gave him the ability to create visions and even being agelessness. He can carry a sword, but even if he manages to eat meat, it will make him nauseous. Nomad, however, can barely touch anything sharp, nor inflict pain of any kind, although he can eat whatever he wants. It is amortal (does not age), absorbs cathexis through the body, which increases its physical capacity and can use it to heal and empower itself. (I think we can assume that these last three abilities are obtained from the Nahel bond) And he can "jump" from one planet to another if he has sufficient investiture. They are only completely alike in that they do not age and their torments are similar.
The side effects of the two former Dawnshards are as dissimilar as Hoid and Nomad themselves. Could it be that factors such as connection, identity, or even sDNA play a role in influencing the abilities and afflictions of the Dawnshards?

 

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Onironte said:

I don't know to what extent Hoid was invested, because I haven't found when he acquired his peculiar abilities with connection and fortune.
It seems strange to me how different the side effects are from having been Dawnshard:
Hoid is immortal, with a strong healing factor, maybe the Dawnshard also gave him the ability to create visions and even being agelessness. He can carry a sword, but even if he manages to eat meat, it will make him nauseous. Nomad, however, can barely touch anything sharp, nor inflict pain of any kind, although he can eat whatever he wants. It is amortal (does not age), absorbs cathexis through the body, which increases its physical capacity and can use it to heal and empower itself. (I think we can assume that these last three abilities are obtained from the Nahel bond) And he can "jump" from one planet to another if he has sufficient investiture. They are only completely alike in that they do not age and their torments are similar.
The side effects of the two former Dawnshards are as dissimilar as Hoid and Nomad themselves. Could it be that factors such as connection, identity, or even sDNA play a role in influencing the abilities and afflictions of the Dawnshards?

It was said that Torment addapts, it changes, grows and once Nomad is able to trick it and use something as a weapon, the Torment will prevent him from doing that again - maybe Hoid never tried to use any weapon or sword to hurt somebody, thus he can safely carry and touch a sword as his "Blessing" doesn't consider this as a weapon? Or maybe that's a mastery of perception - as long as Hoid doesn't try to hurt, he can touch it. Ch 2:

Quote

Nomad grunted, diving through a tall patch of grass that had sprung up in the minutes since he’d woken. He tried to make a weapon appear, but nothing happened.
It’s your Torment, the knight helpfully observes to his moderately capable squire. It has grown strong enough to deny you weapons. 
[...]
The ember man prepared another swing, and Nomad took a deep breath, then ducked the attack and bodychecked the man. As soon as he went in for the hit, though, his body locked up again.
Yes, I see, the knight muses with a conversational tone. Your Torment now attempts to prevent even minor physical altercations.
He couldn’t so much as tackle someone? It was getting bad

Nomad being able to eat meat is weird, that's true, but maybe it's not about eating but about hunting? Maybe Hoid hunted and his "Blessing" eventually grew so much that it prevented him from even eating meat? 

Hoid also held the Dawnshard for much longer than Nomad, the effects of this made him practically immortal, unlike Sigzil. The longer one holds a Dawnshard, the bigger are the changes to one's soul - all those differences could be simply the result of that. Ch 34:

Quote

His master, who had held the Dawnshard far longer, could never die. Nomad was far from that level.

The ability to create visions are definitely from Yolenish Lightweaving, not Dawnshard. We haven't seen Hoid using Skipping, but maybe he simply doesn't want to as it requires a lot of investiture, or it's too random for him to use, thus he prefers normal travel via CR. Just because Hoid didn’t use it, doesn’t mean he is unable to Skip.