Coppercloud's Exact Mechanics?

[Trusk'our he/him]

Copper Allomancy doesn't entirely make sense to me- it seems to smother the rippling effect created by Kinetic Investiture and simultaneously can smother the effects of Emotional Allomancy on the Smoker. That sounds a lot like if someone were to suck the energy out of soundwaves you could deaden the sound it would make. . . only, you can pierce a Coppercloud with sufficiently strong A-bronze, making the cloud useless.

I see two possible explanations for this;

1. A Coppercloud makes a sort of bubble, similar to A-Bendalloy or Cadmium, and within that bubble the Copper actively hides the Pulses made by Kinetic Investiture, but does not actually remove them. A sufficiently strong Seeker can pierce this cloud however, allowing them to sense the Pulses hidden within.

2. The second (and I feel more likely) explanation is that a Smoker is actually absorbing the Pulses of nearby Kinetic Investiture (if I recall correctly, this is how Vin describes it when she senses Copper being burned), but the Smoker is not strong enough to absorb all of the Pulses, meaning that a strong enough Seeker can still potentially sense Pulses through the Cloud.

This also could be why they are immune to Emotional Allomancy and why they could theoretically shield other as well (WoB)- they absorb the waves of Investiture that emanate from the Soother/Rioter, preventing it from ever reaching its target.

If #2 is true, I think it may be possible to become a strong enough Smoker (via Hemalurgy, F-nicrosil, or external Investiture reserves) to make it impossible to sense any Pulses no matter how strong the Seeker.

For example, let's say a Smoker with ten times the strength you'd normally find is strong enough to completely absorb all Pulses from regular powered Allomancy (stronger use of Investiture is easier to detect). Even if a Seeker with one hundred times the strength of that Smoker was to attempt to pierce their Coppercloud, there would be nothing to detect, so they'd sense nothing.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Longshot97 he/him]

I do wonder as to the full extent of a Smoker's abilities, on a Cosmerological level. They seem to be able to effect both Pulses (which emanate) from all kinetic Investiture, and whatever facilitates Emotional Allomantic manipulation. It could be Kinetic Investiture, it could be Connection, it could be something else entirely, but it probably isn't Investiture-pulses that change a person's emotions. So, just what exactly can a copper Misting Smoke?

They obviously prevent detection in some way or another, with relative strength on both sides being a key factor.

They also make the Misting immune to Emotional Allomancy. So, could they protect themselves from other Investiture-based influencers? Could they [Cosmere spoilers]

Spoiler

...prevent any of the Surges from being used on them? Does it protect them from direct applications of AonDor, or Soulstamping? Does a Smoker become immune to the Shaod whilst burning copper? Does it hide them from Nalthian life sense? What about influence from beings such as Ashertmarn and Nergaoul?

Beyond this, I'll have to find that passage on Vin's exact thoughts on copper to theorize on the exact mechanics of copper.

[Treamayne]

A-Copper WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Does having multiple people burn copper make it harder to pierce them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Ancient Lunch Q&A (July 31, 2010)

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

If you are Smoked, you can't Seek.

KChan (paraphrased)

[Brandon] told me that because burning copper creates an Allomantic dead zone, so to speak, everything inside it is effectively silenced. This prevents pulses from reaching Seekers who are outside the cloud, but it also prevents anyone inside the cloud from receiving any pulses whatsoever. The reason Vin could do this is because of her earring.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

Spoiler

CealdishOrbLender

Can a Smoker block an Awakener's lifesense?

Brandon Sanderson

That will work, yes.

Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015)

Quote

Steeldancer

What happens when you flare copper?

Brandon Sanderson

What happens when you flare copper? Various different things can happen when you flare copper. I'll RAFO that for now. [...] I'll delve into that more, I don't want to delve into it too much right now, you'll find out, probably in Era 3, some of the things that can happen with copper.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

Quote

TheDeathlessHorsie79

Bronze is an alloy of Copper. Maybe the cloud Smokers gives is in actuality the complementary rhythm to nullify the rhythm from the metals they are in close proximity with

Brandon Sanderson

I have to RAFO, I'm afraid, but I like this direction of theorizing.

General Reddit 2020 (Dec. 14, 2020)

Spoiler

William Anderson

Can a Seeker inside a Coppercloud Seek someone out of one?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible.

William Anderson

What about a Soother instead of a Seeker?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, again possible.

Goodreads: Ask the Author Q&A (Aug. 13, 2014)

This WoB Probably refers to the Seekers at Soothing Stations in Era 1 Luthadel - and is likely part Intent, and part the seeker being a different person than the one who is Smoking.

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Could a Soother prevent a listener from attuning a given rhythm?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. A coppercloud could, but I hadn't thought about emotional allomancy interacting. See, the rhythm isn't your emotion and doesn't determine your mood. It is a direct connection to the spiritual realm. So I guess soothing could make it harder just like it makes anything harder, in the same way that driving a car would be harder. [recording starts here] And so, for the same reasons that you can, um, it is possible that a coppercloud can play with it. Not a normal power of a coppercloud, but you’ve seen them do stuff similar.

Footnote: Question was cut off in recording, first bit reproduced from memory
Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

This implies that Connection is, at least, part of the process of Smoking.

 

I'll think on it and theorize more later - but I want to note that in WoA, when Vin burned Bronze+Durlumin she was able to sense th ethoughs and emotions Breeze was sending, as well as sense the target - which, to me, implies the "resistant to emotional allomancy" effect is likely blocking a Cognitive Connection that is temporarily formed (similar to Brandon saying that Zinc/Brass control hemalurgic constructs by lapping power at their Cognitive Aspect).

 

[Longshot97 he/him]

52 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Quote

This implies that Connection is, at least, part of the process of Smoking.

I'll think on it and theorize more later - but I want to note that in WoA, when Vin burned Bronze+Durlumin she was able to sense th ethoughs and emotions Breeze was sending, as well as sense the target - which, to me, implies the "resistant to emotional allomancy" effect is likely blocking a Cognitive Connection that is temporarily formed (similar to Brandon saying that Zinc/Brass control hemalurgic constructs by lapping power at their Cognitive Aspect).

Fascinating. Maybe this explains both how Seeking and Emotional Allomancy are suppressed. Maybe Smoking nullifies certain types of Connection within a certain radius, which prevents Seekers from Connecting to Allomantic Pulses, or Rioters/Soothers from Connecting with the Smoker, or [Spoilers for The Stormlight Archive]

Spoiler

Singers from attuning the Rhythms, or attuning to them. Heck, lifesense might be a Connection formed with living beings.

This also explains why Seeking wouldn't work within a Coppercloud, as the Connection cannot reach the Seeker.

It does not, however, neatly explain why or how a sufficiently powerful Seeker can overpower a Coppercloud. It does explain how only certain Smokers can prevent Emotional Allomancy for others: specific Intent in nullifying certain Connections may require practice, just as Seekers sensing Feruchemy requires practice.

[Treamayne]

20 minutes ago, Longshot97 said:

It does not, however, neatly explain why or how a sufficiently powerful Seeker can overpower a Coppercloud.

Well, based on the noral principal of Investiture resists Investiture, my mental image is something like Ballistics gel.

It's not that a Coppercloud is an "off switch" so much as a barrier to push through. So, for example, an unaugmented Era 1 seeker (Kelsier, for example) is like the 380ACP in the picture below - not quite stong enough to piece a normal "1 foot" coppercloud. However, an augmented Seeker (like Vin - whether the augmentation is hemalurgic, duralumin or allomantic strength [Elend]) can push though that normal "1 foot" cloud like the 9mm luger in the picture below (which is why Vin says it is faint when Kelsier tests her on the rooftop), but may not be able to pierce an Augmented Cloud (such as the WoB about multiple Smoker's abilities stacking when used near each other).

 

Spoiler

 

[alder24]

Since RoW I've imagined A-Copper works like a noise-canceling headphones - it detects the waves of investiture flowing through the area and creates a wave opposite to that one detected, canceling it out. But it isn't perfect cancellation, it just weakens waves so much that they can't be detected and used by anyone who isn't strong enough - that's why Vin could detect weak pulses from pierced copperclouds, that's why bronze savants or Elend can pierce it. Absorbing the pulses just like time bubbles do works for me too.