I'm reading Wax & Wayne for the first time

[Treamayne]

Glad you enjoyed it. 

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

The Shard of Ruin is not death or destruction. It’s slow decay and entropy, it is being at peace with the fact life and the universe doesn’t last forever.

Kind-of. Yes, as Ruin was in Era 1. Please note (WoB):

Spoiler

Alvaro Lopez

Why [Redacted] is stronger and worst evil than Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

One reason is that Ruin had a person in control of it who, for many years, fought against the impulse to destroy--and in the end, channeled it toward entropy and decay, necessary elements of the universe. [Redacted] represents something else entirely.

General Twitter 2018 (June 6, 2018)

So, the wrong Vessel holding Ruin could "interpret" the Shard's Intent slightly differently. And that could be a baaaad thing (but, hopefully, Sazed is already biased to see Ati's approach and also channel it in a slightly safer direction). 

Elantris Spoilers:

Spoiler

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

I bet AonDor is doing Identity manipulation on the stones of the Ire's fortress

I don't think the stones of the fortress are "manifested" in the same way that Kelsier manifested his fire, pack, etc. More like how Nahz had the knife he gave to Kell (which he promptly lost), the stones were likely brought into the Cognitive through the Shardpool you see Riino ("Beautiful, once so beautiful" hoed) pass through and that Raoden rejects. More likely, the channel of Dor they are piping in is there to power the AonDor protections put into place on the Fortress (and because the Ire need to consume it). WoBs:

Quote

Oversleep

Ire and their fortress on Scadrial. 

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Oversleep

Is it still there?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it should be, yes.

Oversleep

Sazed is aware of it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Oversleep

Okay, do they have on other planets?

Brandon Sanderson

They have outposts but you will rarely find something as highly well constructed as that.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

 

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

 I think it was hiding its holders from the sight of both Ruin and Preservation.

Don't forget, both Fuzz and Ruin knew they were there (just not why), and it is implied the Fortress had been there a long time. 

 

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

On 4/3/2024 at 8:46 AM, alder24 said:

The answer is simple. Firstly there would be no number 16 in Mistsnapping, no sign that something weird is happening. Secondly it wouldn't have been an obvious sign that says "you can burn Atium now, that's what you need to do" as Mistborn can burn anything. Thirdly it would take much more power to make someone into a Mistborn than into a Misting. Mistborn are much more invested and those Mistings snapped by Mists were very weak, weaker than normal Mistings as many of them had barely any Allomantic potential in them. And it wouldn't have been beneficial at all - you can't win against Ruin by killing, you just have to burn Atium, Mistborn weren't needed. WoB:

I’m not understanding this logic out-of-universe. I guess it makes sense in-universe, since the plan to burn away Ruin’s body was a “fragile distant maybe” to begin with. But out-of-universe I don’t understand why Sanderson did this. Atium doesn’t fit into the 16 metals, even if you acknowledge it’s an alloy of pure atium and electrum. And if you remember correctly, the Mists also Snapped people into Mistings of the 16 base metals.  

I personally find the justification… flimsy. Besides now that I’m thinking about futuresight and the frailness of the plan succeeding, it’s not like it was ever guaranteed Elend (or someone) would know there were atium Mistings. After all he didn’t find out about atium Mistings until Yomen told him, then Vin presumably influenced him into going to the Pits of Hathsin to fulfill Leras’ plan. So why not go the extra step and create Mistborn? Also, if it was an army of Mistborn it would perfectly reference the title of the series. And that would make me happy lol.

 

On 4/5/2024 at 7:15 AM, Treamayne said:

Ati tried to channel Ruin to mean these things, but was only partially successful, which is why you'll notice through the rest of the story a slight difference between what Ruin says and what Ruin does. When/If you get to Stormlight Archive, you will see a similar situation with another Shard.

So this is why Ruin says he cares about life and change, but doesn’t comfort people after death like Preservation does? Instead, he revels in death and decay and destruction.

On 4/5/2024 at 7:15 AM, Treamayne said:

Not quite. . . You will get more on this interaction over the rest of the story. To avoid spoilers I will wait for later in case you still have questions. 

Not sure where you were trying to go this. Kelsier heard the thoughts of all the people in Urteau and the crew, not just the mad or spiked. He did the same to Spook’s mind after his spike was removed. And of course, he heard Vin’s thoughts after her earring was removed. 

On 4/5/2024 at 7:15 AM, Treamayne said:

You will also get more information on this as the story progresses, with examples of what happens when that Connection is . . . lacking.

I understand now! So the Shard of Preservation and the Well of Ascension’s power can’t be taken up by anyone. They can only be taken by those with personalities in tune with Preservation’s attributes - protection, stability, stasis, the status quo etc. People like Vin, Rashek, or Alendi.

I gotta love the bit where it’s revealed Sazed is Connected to both Shards cuz of the journey he’s gone through his life. As well as the reveal of a nuanced aspect of Ruin, which I now see in how Sazed has been influencing the Elendel Basin and the Southern Continent. 

On 4/5/2024 at 7:15 AM, Treamayne said:

That is the current concensus - though BS did originally plan for that the be a whisper from Kelsier (until he realized it wasn't possible) - WoB:

I’m gonna think this is Preservation, but I’m now experienced enough in Cosmere magic shenanigans to know how he’s speaking to Sazed’s mind. I need to read more, and maybe I’ll discuss this someday. Maybe it’s using the same method as Leras telling Kelsier to Survive?

 

On 4/5/2024 at 7:15 AM, Treamayne said:

Just to be clear, Snapping isn't something Preservation added to Allomancy - it is a fundamental part of some kinds of Investiture and similar mechanics will appear in other Cosmere stories. 

Is that mechanic found in Forgery or the Shaod, by any chance?

 

On 4/6/2024 at 10:05 PM, Treamayne said:

Well, Atium is tapping into the Spiritual Realm on the very very short scale - only seconds - which is why Atium Shadows are far more likely to be correct (it fractures exponentially the further forward you are from "now") - which is also why once Vin realized this, she was able to "break" Zane's Atium to defeat him.

Thanks for the explanation. But now my head hurts when it comes to the Terris Prophecies.

I understand that Vin breaking Zane’s atium demonstrates that reactions to a future possibility, or reactions to actions that thread through a future possibility, fracture a possibility into more. Interesting, great.

But then if future possibilities fracture the more in time someone looks then how were the Terris Prophecies so… correct. Oh well, I have my own theories about that. Fueled by my analysis of Kelsier’s precognitive plan to give Vin the Mists / Shard.

On 4/6/2024 at 10:05 PM, Treamayne said:

Well, yes, but also a bit more - closer to a Thanatos Gambit + Batman Gambit + nearly a Xanatos Gambit (not quite all outcomes favoring Preservation's plan - but many possible outcomes favored the Plan since Leras accounted for his death favoring the Plan as well as factored in that Ruin would act like Ruin) 

I get the Thanatos Gambit and The Plan tropes. But how was The Plan a Batman Gambit or Xanatos Gambit?

On 4/6/2024 at 10:05 PM, Treamayne said:

Elend's Duralumin+Atium was closer to seeing the actual resolution of the Plan because, based on Atium, it was much closer to "now" and therefore much more likely to be accurate (or at least close). While I think you are spot-on for how Rashek dealt with what he learned - which is why he had so many separate (but sometimes overlapping) plans. 

You’re spot on with Elend. His future vision was closer to The Plan’s resolution than Ascended Rashek’s vision during, or theoretical later visions made by Allomantic futuresight. But Elend still had a lot of room for error. He was seeing into the future the same way Ruin does. The same way Kelsier did when Preservation showed him a future vision. Elend was temporarily Connected to Kelsier, Vin, Ruin’s essence, the future, the past, and everything in the battlefield. Seeing the future possibilities within those Connections, but understanding them all because of Atium’s mind expansion. Based on Atium and Kelsier’s vision, he probably saw the ”thousands upon thousands” of future possibilities that could result from his current action - the fight against Marsh. 

He liked the general implication of the future vision, so he let Marsh kill him and hoped it would come true. But because Elend was glimpsing into the futures of Vin and Ruin - who constantly see into the future - the general implication from his own future vision would’ve been horribly inaccurate and even less guaranteed to come true. 

 

On 4/6/2024 at 10:05 PM, Treamayne said:

Well, we did warn you when you first voiced your upset with Ruin after Hero of Ages - Ruin's schemes were much deeper than you could see from the viewpoints HoA was able to show. 

Yes you did

 

On 4/9/2024 at 9:04 PM, Treamayne said:

Interesting theory. I would guess it wasn;t so much "I want you to do X, Y and Z" as "Hey, a possible wild-card back-up with a possibility of aiding the 'plan.' "

And I would note that you might want to check out (again) what Fuzz said when Kelsier was going toward the Well in Part 1 - Ch 1:

Kelsier’s plan for Marsh supports this, I think. As well as the fragile nature of the atium Mistings or The Hero of Ages.

Yup, I definitely think Leras saw something special in Kelsier’s thoughts and future. So did Vin. So did Sazed.

On 4/10/2024 at 8:52 AM, alder24 said:

Interesting, it's possible, but judging by how Leras behaved in SH, by that he didn't remember what was the plan, was just hoping people would recognize it without his intervention, or by that he didn't wanted to preserve Kelsier from going into the Beyond until Kelsier showed an unbreakable will to save himself and convinced Leras to made him into a CS, I think at that point Leras was too far gone to do anything as a part of his plan - he didn't know what his plan was. I think it would be more like what happened at the Well at the beginning of SH - Leras was just impressed by Kelsier's actions and just felt he deserved to be preserved, not knowing he would ultimately serve a role in his plan. Leras didn't predict Rashek would die, he didn't predict Ruin would be soon freed, he didn't know he needed to do anything this time as he thought Rashek would Ascend again, thus maintaining the status quo.

I don’t believe any of this for a second. There are many implications that indicate Leras wasn't just setting the plan in motion, he was actively facilitating it. Everything he did with Kelsier (pits, shadow, vision) and his choice of Vin were active and happening right now rather than thousands of years ago.

Secret History confirms he “made it work last time” with the Lord Ruler - maneuvering Rashek into the position of Ascending and preventing Ruin’s freedom. It confirms that back then, he predicted Alendi would give up the power.

There’s this line after Vin frees Ruin: “It was going to happen,” Preservation said. “I thought… Maybe…” 

To me, this indicates Leras predicted Ruin would break free this cycle. Even before he imprisoned Ruin, he knew he would break free one day. That the Well of Ascension would only delay Ruin. 

Leras did do something. He programmed the Mists to dripfeed into Vin, Connecting her to Preservation.

As for Leras not predicting Rashek would soon die… that’s an interesting assumption. It’s true Leras said he loves Rashek’s immortality and stability, even though he disagrees with Rashek’s actions. But not wanting to kill Rashek doesn’t match up with having to thread through The Plan - to get both Shards into the grasps of The Hero of Ages.

Saying that Leras didn’t remember the plan is a bit… complicated. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t threading through the plan or knew aspects of it. Remember that Fuzz is a shadow of the Vessel who chose Vin as his successor, or commanded Kelsier to survive, or put Rashek into place.

Let’s be honest, Rashek needed to die for The Hero of Ages to be created. He would’ve prevented anyone from going to the Well. He would’ve prevented anyone from going to the Pits of Hathsin or Trustwarren. He would’ve killed Vin, Kelsier, and Sazed - essential pieces of Leras’ plan. 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

On 4/5/2024 at 3:40 AM, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Oh right! Harmony said that Preservation hears the thoughts of those who wear Hemalurgic spikes! Buuuut he's partly a liar cuz Harmony also listened to Wax's thoughts before he put on the earring.

On 4/5/2024 at 7:15 AM, Treamayne said:

Not quite. . . You will get more on this interaction over the rest of the story. To avoid spoilers I will wait for later in case you still have questions.

Not sure where you were trying to go this. Kelsier heard the thoughts of all the people in Urteau and the crew, not just the mad or spiked. He did the same to Spook’s mind after his spike was removed. And of course, he heard Vin’s thoughts after her earring was removed. 

I said "not quite" because of the bolded section of your post to which I was referring. Preservation hears thoughs with or without a Spike. Ruin communicates to cracked souls and/or people with spikes. And Harmony said he communicated with Pathians wearing spikes (but it's the talking that needs the spike). Yes, in SoS he stated it in a way to imply what you said, but he also later fessed up that he can hear anytime he wants to do so (SoS Ch 7):

Spoiler

Wait, Wax thought. Did I just get sarcastic with God Himself?

Yes, you did, Harmony said. It is well. Few act that way toward me, even among the kandra. It feels good to me. Like older times. Since Kelsier … well, I haven’t had much of that.

“You can hear my thoughts?” Wax asked.

When you have the earring in, yes. I gain the ability to hear you from Preservation, and the ability to speak to you from Ruin. Each had only one half. I always found it puzzling.

It's a Sanderson traditional verbal sidestep. He did not say "I can only hear you when you have the earring in. . . "

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

I understand now! So the Shard of Preservation and the Well of Ascension’s power can’t be taken up by anyone. They can only be taken by those with personalities in tune with Preservation’s attributes - protection, stability, stasis, the status quo etc. People like Vin, Rashek, or Alendi.

Not just a personality in-tune with the Shard's intent - you also can not have more connection to a different Shard. Kelsier got to see how he had far more Connection to Ruin, even though he was Connected to Preservation (saving the Skaa, etc.) - so, after cheating with the Ire's tool to take up Preservation, he still could not use it correctly or completely, because once the false connection was gone, he still had too much Connection to Ruin to be a true Vessel. Kell also notes how Sazed's trials after the loss of Tyndwel increased his Connection to Ruin so that, by the end (M:SH P6C8)

Spoiler

 “How?” he whispered. “How is he Connected to them both, so evenly?

 

2 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

I’m gonna think this is Preservation, but I’m now experienced enough in Cosmere magic shenanigans to know how he’s speaking to Sazed’s mind. I need to read more, and maybe I’ll discuss this someday. Maybe it’s using the same method as Leras telling Kelsier to Survive?

Possibly - I always took it to be closer to how Harmony communicated with Wax in BoM. Sazed is injured and dying, and already has a Connection to Preservation. In my head-canon Fuzz can whisper this because he is getting close to the threshold and there was enough Connection to bridge the gap (much like Kelsier and Spook after he removed the spike, now that I think of it). 

2 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

But then if future possibilities fracture the more in time someone looks then how were the Terris Prophecies so… correct.

2 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

I get the Thanatos Gambit and The Plan tropes. But how was The Plan a Batman Gambit or Xanatos Gambit?

The Latter is part of the explanation for the former. I beleive that Leras set up the prophesies so that the majority of the possibilities he foresaw ended in teh same result - a Human able to take up Preservation and being able to Destroy in order to Protect Scadrial. We just happened to read the story of the one that happened )but not necessarily the only one that could have worked). It's a Batman Gambit because many of the permutation relied upon Ati acting like Ruin (rather than acting like Ati before being consumed by his shard's intent). He didn;t just plan on Ruin not catching the details, he planned for Ruin's changes (sign of 16, etc.), his manipulations, and his tendancy to gloat when he thought all danger was passed and he had won. 

2 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

he probably saw the ”thousands upon thousands” of future possibilities that could result from his current action - the fight against Marsh.

Possible, I guess - but Vin's reaction to what happens is less than a minute after his beheading - not much further forward than a normal use of Atium. Not to mention his huge Connection to Vin amplifying how he could interpret her possible responses. I find it more likely that he saw only a few possibilities and all or most ended with her sacrifice to stop Ruin. 

2 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

But because Elend was glimpsing into the futures of Vin and Ruin - who constantly see into the future - the general implication from his own future vision would’ve been horribly inaccurate and even less guaranteed to come true.

Only if they were trying to access Futuresight at the same time. . . 

Glad you enjoyed the story and I hope it improved your opinion of Era 1.

Will you move on to the Lost Metal next, or save that for after other Cosmere?

Note: The Lost Metal has (arguably) the most Cosmere references so far, as well as spoilers for Stormlight Archive 2-4. That said, you would not be the first person I have known to read it before Stormlight Archive. 

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Atium doesn’t fit into the 16 metals

This, this is precisely why it matters. Atium doesn't fit. Everyone in the world always wondered about how weird Atium is compared to other metals and that was a clue that Elend and Vin needed to realize something weird is happening. 

10 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

then Vin presumably influenced him into going to the Pits of Hathsin to fulfill Leras’ plan.

Vin didn't know Leras' plan. She was surprised that Elend somehow found a whole army capable of burning Atium. She had no idea what was needed to be done. HoA ch 81:

Quote

A figure in white slowly stepped out into the ash, brilliant white cape fluttering. He held a sword in one hand.
Elend! she tried to cry at him. No! Go back! Charging them is madness! You'll be killed!
[...]
Somehow, Elend had found an entire army who could burn atium.

 

10 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

So why not go the extra step and create Mistborn?

The out-of-universe reason is that Brandon wanted it that way so it happened. You can't really consider out-of-universe reason as all explanations can do is to point out in-universe reason. And that simply is that Mistborn weren't needed. Mistborn would be a distraction. Elend had never burnt Atium before, he knew Atium for its economic value, not as a powerful weapon - he was a Mistborn but wasn't thinking like a Mistborn. If Demoux was a Mistborn, the vials of metals he got to burn would work and Elend would have never questioned why Demoux was Snapped. Elend only started to think of burning Atium after he started to think why Demoux was unable to burn his vial of metals:

Quote

Why can't I do it? Elend thought with frustration. I spend a year searching out storage caverns to provide food, only to end up trapped with my people starving. I search all that time looking for the atium—hoping to use it to buy safety for my people—and then I find it too late to spend it on anything.
Too late. . . . He paused, glancing back toward the metal plate in the floor.
Years searching for . . . atium.
None of the metals Demoux had given his soldiers had worked. Elend had been working under the assumption that Demoux's group would be like the other mistfallen back in Urteau—that they'd be composed of all kinds of Mistings. Yet, there had been something dif erent about Demoux's group. They had fallen sick for far longer than the others.
Elend pushed forward, rushing past Sazed, grabbing a handful of beads. A vast wealth, unlike anything any man had ever possessed. Valuable for its rarity. Valuable for its economic power. Valuable for its Allomancy.
[...]
Two hundred and eighty men, Elend thought. Sent away from my army because of all the ones who fell sick, they were the most sick. Sixteen days.
Two hundred and eighty men. One-sixteenth of those who fell sick. One out of sixteen Allomantic metals.
Yomen had proven that there was such a thing as an atium Misting. If Elend hadn't been so distracted, he would have made the connection earlier. If one out of sixteen who fell sick remained that way the longest, would that not imply that they'd gained the most powerful of the sixteen abilities?

The whole reason Elend was able to connect the dots, was because Demoux was unable to burn any other metals and all other clues regarding the number 16 appearing over and over again. If Preservation had thrown Mistborn into the mix, there would be no 16, there would be no thinking "why Demoux wasn't able to burn anything," there would be no burning entire Atium stock away. There would be just an army of Mistborn.

Moreover even earlier If Demoux and his men were turned into Mistborn, they might have realized this earlier at some point (just like Vin, from traces amounts of metals) and Elend would have never sent them back to Luthadel, they would have never ended at the place where Atium was. Moreover, Preservation had set Mistsnapping to work without his intervention, as he knew he would lose his mind. It had to work as well as it could and forcing it to Snap Mistborn would just strain the system, require too much power and it could be potentially more deadly than normal Snapping as more power had to be pushed into people, giving Ruin a better opportunity to twist it. I fully believe that Snapping Mistborn would not work to fulfill Preservation's plan - it's not a sign as obvious as Mistings, no number 16, no thinking "what metal could they be able to burn" etc. 

10 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Also, if it was an army of Mistborn it would perfectly reference the title of the series. And that would make me happy lol.

Oh, so I have no explanation that would satisfy you, if that's what you mean. 

10 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

I don’t believe any of this for a second. There are many implications that indicate Leras wasn't just setting the plan in motion, he was actively facilitating it. Everything he did with Kelsier (pits, shadow, vision) and his choice of Vin were active and happening right now rather than thousands of years ago.

Secret History confirms he “made it work last time” with the Lord Ruler - maneuvering Rashek into the position of Ascending and preventing Ruin’s freedom. It confirms that back then, he predicted Alendi would give up the power.

He did that every 1024 years, he prepared someone to take up the power to use it to maintain the status quo. This was solely because his mind was gone and he was unable to remember what his end plan was. He didn't act because of his plan, he acted because he wanted to prevent Ruin from escaping and only that mattered for him at this point. He only hoped that once Ruin escapes, his plan would be enough to stop him, not knowing what it was. Just go back and reread the first few chapters. Leras keeps repeating that Ruin can't escape, that Vin has to use the power and he is working only to prepare Vin for her role in maintaining the prison. He was totally stunned and frightened when Rashek died. Leras was dead at this point, he was unable to work on his plan that he didn't remember. Kelsier was just a happy accident that ultimately proved to be what his plan needed.  

The thing with Rashek wasn't pre-planned action, it was a last ditch attempt to stop Alendi from freeing Ruin after Leras had realized that Alendi won't do what he should have done. It happened with Vin as well - Sazed was Leras' failed attempt to stop Vin from freeing Ruin, but this time Ruin was ready for it and had Marsh in a position to stop Sazed - something that he missed during Alendi's times. 

I don't believe that Preservation's plan was specifically about Vin and Sazed, rather it was general enough to help people win against Ruin, no matter when Ruin is freed. If Vin were to use the power of the Well instead of releasing it, the plan would still exist 1024 years later and other people would be there to act on it. The plan was just a hope, a hope that people would see clues left for them and use them against Ruin. It might not have worked as well as it worked with Vin and Sazed, but there would still be people capable of doing what was necessary to do - because all people on Scadrial have both Ruin and Preservation on them, all are capable to destroy to protect just like Vin did, all are capable to understand the nature of both Shards as they all are made of their essence.

That's also how the future sight works, it gives you possibilities, not certain futures. Predicting how one specific person would be able to Ascend seems too much, but predicting someone, sometime will do this, if proper actions are taken and clues are left for them feels just right to me. If Alendi were to free Ruin, who knows, it might have ended with Rashek as a dual-Vessel. Or maybe Kwaan who back then played the same role as Sazed? Either way, I believe the plan was general enough to allow for some person to Ascend to both Ruin and Preservation if the time had come, but their success would depend heavily on them and their actions. The plan was to give people hope and relied on their hearts - not specifically on Vin or Sazed. In different times there would be others like them.

Spoiler

defiantburrito

The Hero of Ages prophecy: For a while it seemed to me that the prophecy was entirely bogus (invented by Ruin as a lure), but it ended up coming true! So my question is, where did the prophecy actually come from? Was it Atium in some form, or something else entirely?

Brandon Sanderson

The religions of Scadrial had a lot of ups and downs. First, you have Ruin and Preservation working together as two gods. Then you have the schism between them, and Preservation betraying Ruin, with Preservation adapting the religion to his own needs and trying to hide in it practices that will keep Ruin imprisoned as long as possible, and then give a chance to defeat him when he escapes. (As Preservation assumes he'll be dead by then.) Finally, you have Ruin corrupting the religions with his influence, trying to figure out what he can twist to his own needs--while missing the hidden layers that Preservation left.

Phantine

Were there a lot of Hero of Ages who ascended beyond the ones we directly saw in the books?

Brandon Sanderson

I wouldn't say so.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 6, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Kaimipono

What was Vin supposed to do at the end of Well of Ascension? How exactly did not-using the power, end up releasing Ruin? I still don't get how that all worked. Can you explain it?

Brandon Sanderson

What was she supposed to do? Well, this is difficult to answer, since the prophecies have been changed and shifted so much. Originally, the prophesies intended for a person to go take the power every thousand years and become a protector of mankind for a period of time. Someone to keep an eye on Ruin in Preservation's absence and watch over the world as he would have done. Imagine an avatar who arrives every thousand years and lives for their lifetime blessing the people with the power of Preservation, renewing Ruin's prison, and generally being a force for protection. (Note that Ruin wouldn't have gotten out if the prison wasn't renewed, he'd simply have been able to touch the world a little bit more.) Obviously, it changed a LOT during the years that Ruin was playing with things.

What should she have done? Well, Ruin's release was inevitable. Even if she hadn't let him go, the world would have 'wound down' eventually. The ashfalls would have grown worse over the centuries, and the next buildup of the Well might not have come in time for them to do anything. Or, perhaps, mankind would have found a way to adapt. But Ruin was going to get himself out eventually, so the choice Vin made was all right. There weren't really any good choices at this point. She could have decided to take the power and become a 'good' Lord Ruler, trying to keep the world from falling apart. Of course, she would have had to make herself immortal with Hemalurgy to make that work right. And since she was already tainted, chances are good she wouldn't have ended up any better than the Lord Ruler himself.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Seventy-Nine

The Mists Chose Someone

There's a lot more going on behind the scenes than even the author of these epigraphs knows. Reasons why Vin was chosen, and why the power of Preservation needed a new mind to control it.

The author is right in that Preservation did need someone to control its power, and it did seek for a host in which to invest itself. It began this search with what mind it had left about sixteen years before the return of the power to the Well of Ascension, just as it began a search for a new host before the return of the power the previous time.

Unfortunately, just as Ruin took control and manipulated Alendi, he took control and manipulated Vin.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (May 13, 2010)

 

Spoiler

Chaos (paraphrased)

In the most recent Hero of Ages annotation, you said that Preservation chose Vin to be the recipient of the power, just as Preservation had chosen Alendi previously (thus, this was why Ruin had manipulated the Prophecies). Was Alendi also chosen precisely sixteen years before the Well of Ascension's power returned?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. He was chosen exactly sixteen years before, but he was a bit older then Vin when he was chosen.

Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010)

 

11 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

There’s this line after Vin frees Ruin: “It was going to happen,” Preservation said. “I thought… Maybe…” 

To me, this indicates Leras predicted Ruin would break free this cycle. Even before he imprisoned Ruin, he knew he would break free one day. That the Well of Ascension would only delay Ruin. 

Yes, Leras knew Ati's escape was inevitable, but he hoped he could have delayed it this time as well, just like he delayed it 1024 years ago with Alendi and Rashek. He didn't know it would happen now.

11 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Leras did do something. He programmed the Mists to dripfeed into Vin, Connecting her to Preservation.

Just as it happened with Alendi, WoB above. 

11 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

As for Leras not predicting Rashek would soon die… that’s an interesting assumption. It’s true Leras said he loves Rashek’s immortality and stability, even though he disagrees with Rashek’s actions. But not wanting to kill Rashek doesn’t match up with having to thread through The Plan - to get both Shards into the grasps of The Hero of Ages.

Saying that Leras didn’t remember the plan is a bit… complicated. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t threading through the plan or knew aspects of it. Remember that Fuzz is a shadow of the Vessel who chose Vin as his successor, or commanded Kelsier to survive, or put Rashek into place.

Let’s be honest, Rashek needed to die for The Hero of Ages to be created. He would’ve prevented anyone from going to the Well. He would’ve prevented anyone from going to the Pits of Hathsin or Trustwarren. He would’ve killed Vin, Kelsier, and Sazed - essential pieces of Leras’ plan. 

Rashek was the prophesied Hero of the Ages - as per Terris original prophecies (WoB above). In my opinion Rashek, Vin and Sazed were all Hero of the Ages, but each had a different role to play. If Rashek took up the power again, he would have prevented Ruin from escaping, delaying the plan for another 1024 years - and that's what Leras at this time wanted. You said it yourself, Leras was at this point just a shadow of a Vessel he once was, his mind was mostly gone and he was unable to act on the plan he created himself. The plan was meant to give people hope and a fighting chance against Ruin without Leras's intervention, as he knew he would be dead by that point. 

 

It's fine to disagree. This is my interpretation of how Preservation's plan was set up, Terris prophecies and Hero of Ages title, the sources give us enough wiggle room to interpret them differently as we want. We probably will never see the full picture, so that's what we have to do. It's fun to read your interpretation. I'm glad to see you were enjoying the story and shedding new light for you on events of Era 1. 

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

It's fine to disagree. This is my interpretation of how Preservation's plan was set up, Terris prophecies and Hero of Ages title, the sources give us enough wiggle room to interpret them differently as we want. We probably will never see the full picture, so that's what we have to do. It's fun to read your interpretation. I'm glad to see you were enjoying the story and shedding new light for you on events of Era 1. 

Personally I think it was a lot more precise than you think. Because there are no characters that fit the Terris Prophecies as much as Sazed, especially not “the future of the entire world on their arms” or the Hero’s relations to the Terris people.

However, I don’t think Leras foresaw thousands of years ago that Vin could take the power of Preservation, or that Elend could sacrifice himself to drive Vin’s sacrifice, or that Sazed could take both Preservation and Ruin. But I think it was like Kelsier’s precognitive plan to give Vin the Shard by encouraging Marsh to remove the earring. Kelsier foresaw few futures where Urteau is saved and Vin gets the Shard, whereas most futures were lines of darkness where Urteau is destroyed and “possibilities end.” Kelsier took advantage of the few openings his frayed Vessel form had - Spook’s Connections to Kelsier - and used Spook to accomplish the lines of light. 

This applies to Leras but on a greater, far less certain level. I think Leras foresaw that some people, in the fragile distant maybe future(s), could do these things. So he did whatever he could do thread towards these things. This is why I think he put Rashek into place - so that Rashek could gather the atium and finally make the atium Misting plan feasible, or to set up “The Hero who’s outside of the Terris people and called heretic” or “the Burden by which the Hero shall be dubbed.”

 

[Treamayne]

50 minutes ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

I think Leras foresaw that some people, in the fragile distant maybe future(s), could do these things.

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

Either way, I believe the plan was general enough to allow for some person to Ascend to both Ruin and Preservation if the time had come, but their success would depend heavily on them and their actions. The plan was to give people hope and relied on their hearts - not specifically on Vin or Sazed.

I think you are both sayign the same thing, generally (even if some details differ). 

 

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

On 4/12/2024 at 10:13 PM, Treamayne said:

It's a Sanderson traditional verbal sidestep. He did not say "I can only hear you when you have the earring in. . . "

Ahhh. That is a clever sidestep from Sanderson and Harmony.

 

On 4/12/2024 at 10:13 PM, Treamayne said:

It's a Sanderson traditional verbal sidestep. He did not say "I can only hear you when you have the earring in. . . "

Very interesting. Hmmm. I don't mean to turn this into a rant but Sazed's Connection to Ruin is definitely something I wanna flesh out in fanfic. It feels like wasted potential especially now that Harmony is repressing Hemalurgy instead of embracing it. It's not noticeable or nuanced enough, especially since Ruin's existence and magic shouldn't still be in this weird, Morgoth-esque framework. It feels very... weak compared to the experiences of Wax or Kelsier. 

On 4/12/2024 at 10:13 PM, Treamayne said:

Possibly - I always took it to be closer to how Harmony communicated with Wax in BoM. Sazed is injured and dying, and already has a Connection to Preservation. In my head-canon Fuzz can whisper this because he is getting close to the threshold and there was enough Connection to bridge the gap (much like Kelsier and Spook after he removed the spike, now that I think of it). 

The weird thing is Preservation can't whisper to minds who are unstable. Kelsier could bridge the gap w/ Connection because the Vessel was Connected to Spook. Harmony communicated with Wax because Wax's soul/idea/whatever was in the Cognitive Realm.

 

On 4/12/2024 at 10:13 PM, Treamayne said:

The Latter is part of the explanation for the former. I beleive that Leras set up the prophesies so that the majority of the possibilities he foresaw ended in teh same result - a Human able to take up Preservation and being able to Destroy in order to Protect Scadrial. We just happened to read the story of the one that happened )but not necessarily the only one that could have worked). It's a Batman Gambit because many of the permutation relied upon Ati acting like Ruin (rather than acting like Ati before being consumed by his shard's intent). He didn;t just plan on Ruin not catching the details, he planned for Ruin's changes (sign of 16, etc.), his manipulations, and his tendancy to gloat when he thought all danger was passed and he had won. 

That all makes sense. I believe the prophecies were purposely set up as vague to hide layers from Ruin and his futuresight. As you said, the sign of 16 meant he planned for Ruin to change the Mists. His manipulations... I guess that could be part of the Batman Gambit. After all he showed Kelsier visions of them. How is Ruin's tendency to gloat part of all this?

 

On 4/12/2024 at 10:13 PM, Treamayne said:

Possible, I guess - but Vin's reaction to what happens is less than a minute after his beheading - not much further forward than a normal use of Atium. Not to mention his huge Connection to Vin amplifying how he could interpret her possible responses. I find it more likely that he saw only a few possibilities and all or most ended with her sacrifice to stop Ruin. 

 

On 4/12/2024 at 10:13 PM, Treamayne said:

Only if they were trying to access Futuresight at the same time. . . 

 

I too find it more likely Elend was seeing only a few possibilities. Though tbf even if he did see "thousands upon thousands" of possibilities, Vin wasn't experiencing time in the same way as Elend. Vin also might've been seeing many more possibilities than Elend did. I'm gonna speculate that a mortal seeing into a Shard's future, even if they're hugely connected to the Shard or Vessel, is far more cloudy than the opposite.

I'm also gonna speculate that Vessel-Vin and Ruin's futuresight was a passive power, not something that needs to be activated like a magic system. I say this because when Vessel-Kelsier saw into the future it was worded like something he was just "doing" throughout the Urteau incident, not something he activated at a specific moment. The same idea seems to apply to Fuzz seeing into Kelsier's future. 

On 4/12/2024 at 10:13 PM, Treamayne said:

Glad you enjoyed the story and I hope it improved your opinion of Era 1.

Will you move on to the Lost Metal next, or save that for after other Cosmere?

Note: The Lost Metal has (arguably) the most Cosmere references so far, as well as spoilers for Stormlight Archive 2-4. That said, you would not be the first person I have known to read it before Stormlight Archive. 

It did improve my opinion of Era 1. Though I'm still not a fan of Ruin's Intent being the fundamental opposite to stasis. I've warmed up to the Intent itself but not... that. Or the idea Ruin was so way too woefully behind Preservation in the 4D chess game. I might end up writing a fanfic where Ruin is the god of chaos lmao. With a bit of a roleswap where Ruin is the protagonist or good guy with The Plan, or at least much smarter than canon. 

The Lost Metal is next. 

 

On 4/13/2024 at 7:31 AM, alder24 said:

This, this is precisely why it matters. Atium doesn't fit. Everyone in the world always wondered about how weird Atium is compared to other metals and that was a clue that Elend and Vin needed to realize something weird is happening. 

... I still don't get it. It's vague and the army of Mistings were easily more fragile than creating an army of Mistborn. Plus, the Mists already Snapped people into regular Mistings, so at least that bunch could've been Mistborn while the rest were atium Mistings. But I guess that's why it was a 'fragile distant maybe." I guess Shards make plans completely different than us mortals. 

 

On 4/13/2024 at 7:31 AM, alder24 said:

Vin didn't know Leras' plan. She was surprised that Elend somehow found a whole army capable of burning Atium. She had no idea what was needed to be done. HoA ch 81:

Well... this is awkward. But tbf it’s a bit fuzzy since it was long before we knew of Kelsier’s time as Preservation. There might be discrepancies between how Vin learned of the plan VS how modern Brandon might write for a new Vessel. If modern Sando wrote Vin's Ascension, he would've wrote out that Vin learned Leras' plan for atium Mistings the moment she saw/learned these things - Rashek's storage caverns and strategies to hide atium, his use of the Well, Ruin's power hidden in atium, and the Pits of Hathsin themselves.

Remember that modern Brandon wrote out that Kelsier - the very unfitting Vessel - learned Leras' plan the moment Ruin uttered the word "atium." Kelsier, who wasn't even trying to delve into the "atium" thing unlike Vin.

 

On 4/13/2024 at 7:31 AM, alder24 said:

He did that every 1024 years, he prepared someone to take up the power to use it to maintain the status quo. This was solely because his mind was gone and he was unable to remember what his end plan was. He didn't act because of his plan, he acted because he wanted to prevent Ruin from escaping and only that mattered for him at this point. He only hoped that once Ruin escapes, his plan would be enough to stop him, not knowing what it was. Just go back and reread the first few chapters. Leras keeps repeating that Ruin can't escape, that Vin has to use the power and he is working only to prepare Vin for her role in maintaining the prison. He was totally stunned and frightened when Rashek died. Leras was dead at this point, he was unable to work on his plan that he didn't remember. Kelsier was just a happy accident that ultimately proved to be what his plan needed.  

The thing with Rashek wasn't pre-planned action, it was a last ditch attempt to stop Alendi from freeing Ruin after Leras had realized that Alendi won't do what he should have done. It happened with Vin as well - Sazed was Leras' failed attempt to stop Vin from freeing Ruin, but this time Ruin was ready for it and had Marsh in a position to stop Sazed - something that he missed during Alendi's times. 

I don't believe that Preservation's plan was specifically about Vin and Sazed, rather it was general enough to help people win against Ruin, no matter when Ruin is freed. If Vin were to use the power of the Well instead of releasing it, the plan would still exist 1024 years later and other people would be there to act on it. The plan was just a hope, a hope that people would see clues left for them and use them against Ruin. It might not have worked as well as it worked with Vin and Sazed, but there would still be people capable of doing what was necessary to do - because all people on Scadrial have both Ruin and Preservation on them, all are capable to destroy to protect just like Vin did, all are capable to understand the nature of both Shards as they all are made of their essence.

That's also how the future sight works, it gives you possibilities, not certain futures. Predicting how one specific person would be able to Ascend seems too much, but predicting someone, sometime will do this, if proper actions are taken and clues are left for them feels just right to me. If Alendi were to free Ruin, who knows, it might have ended with Rashek as a dual-Vessel. Or maybe Kwaan who back then played the same role as Sazed? Either way, I believe the plan was general enough to allow for some person to Ascend to both Ruin and Preservation if the time had come, but their success would depend heavily on them and their actions. The plan was to give people hope and relied on their hearts - not specifically on Vin or Sazed. In different times there would be others like them.

Leras' ultimate goal - likely his interpretation of Preservation - was not to maintain the status quo. It was to protect Scadrial. If he wanted to maintain the status quo, Scadrial wouldn't have reached early industrial tech before Rashek's Ascension.

I feel like you're ignoring a lot of things. The Plan wasn't to keep the prison active. The Plan was to thread towards a human who can Ascend to both Preservation and Ruin. And even though Leras lost his mind over millennia, he still needed to actively act. He was still cognitive enough to hear all thoughts, know all of Ruin's manipulations of minds, and talk to all passing souls in the Cognitive Realm. Kelsier's Survival was too much of an abnormality to just be a happy accident. You're seriously telling me no one in the history of Scadrial wanted to live as much as Kelsier or be revived? We should be seeing Cognitive Shadows and Survives handed out like candy, if what Leras did to Kelsier was just an "accident."

I'm also not convinced Leras immediately became the impotent Fuzz from SH. Impotent compared to Leras before the imprisonment, but not that impotent. And how can there be the Hero without any circumstances for the Hero to arise? How can there be the Hero or atium Misting army if there's a tyrant more powerful than the Hero, or if atium isn't well known and sought out? I believe those were the roles of Rashek and his death, even if Fuzz didn't remember. 

I also think Leras wanted Ruin to be released, eventually. How can the Hero of Ages use both Shards if the capabilities of one are still restricted?

I agree that The Plan can generally be described as a hope. I don't think Preservation specifically planned for Vin and Sazed but some things in the plan feel too precise for Leras to just be picking anyone each cycle. Vin, Rashek, and Alendi didn't hold the future of the entire world on their arms. They weren't so intricately connected to the Terris people, and their  struggles, and their wishes. And remember, Scadrians don't understand both Shards just because they're made of both Investitures. It's why Sazed is so notable among the Terris people. Vin till the moment of her death saw Ruin as nothing more than a force of death and destruction. Even Kelsier saw Ruin as this. 

I think Leras knew Rashek or Alendi weren't self-sacrificial the way Vin could be.

 

On 4/13/2024 at 7:31 AM, alder24 said:

Rashek was the prophesied Hero of the Ages - as per Terris original prophecies (WoB above). In my opinion Rashek, Vin and Sazed were all Hero of the Ages, but each had a different role to play. If Rashek took up the power again, he would have prevented Ruin from escaping, delaying the plan for another 1024 years - and that's what Leras at this time wanted. You said it yourself, Leras was at this point just a shadow of a Vessel he once was, his mind was mostly gone and he was unable to act on the plan he created himself. The plan was meant to give people hope and a fighting chance against Ruin without Leras's intervention, as he knew he would be dead by that point. 

No offense, but I think I would prefer to ignore those WoBs about Alendi. They're very early in Brandon's career and there's nothing in-story that suggests Leras was grooming Alendi to take the Shard. 

As for Rashek being the Hero of Ages.... just no. In my opinion. I think Brandon has been very clear that Sazed is the Hero of Ages. Not Vin, or Alendi, or Rashek, or Kelsier. It is Sazed. I think Leras had enough knowledge of their thoughts, Connections, and futures to know how the trajectory of their lives' could play into Connections to both Shards. 

You're ignoring that Leras actively facilitated the plan throughout human history i.e. hid gems in all religions for the Hero. He didn't just do some things before the imprisonment and dipped. Remember this is the same guy who creates Cognitive holograms to communicate to every dying soul in the Cognitive Realm.

 

[alder24]

3 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

... I still don't get it. It's vague and the army of Mistings were easily more fragile than creating an army of Mistborn. Plus, the Mists already Snapped people into regular Mistings, so at least that bunch could've been Mistborn while the rest were atium Mistings. But I guess that's why it was a 'fragile distant maybe." I guess Shards make plans completely different than us mortals. 

More fragile or more concealed? Ruin didn't care about Mist-Snapped until Elend discovered that they are all Allomancers - only then Ruin ordered his Koloss to attack Fadrex to wipe them out. But that was just before Vin's Ascension, if that were to happen earlier, if there were Mistborn among those Mist-Snapped, all would have realized what's going on much earlier, Ruin would have kill them all much earlier as well and nobody would be able to prevent 300,000 Koloss from killing all those inexperienced Mistborn and other Allomancers. All of those electrum Misting would have been killed long before they would get a chance to ingest Atium. 

And once again, per WoB it takes considerably more power to snap people into Mistborn - more than what it takes to snap them into 15 types of Mistsings. It's simply too much to ask from Mists, who had to work autonomously on their own, to snap Mistborn into existence. Then there would be no 16, as now you have only 2 types of snapped - Mistborn and electrum Mistings.

3 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Well... this is awkward. But tbf it’s a bit fuzzy since it was long before we knew of Kelsier’s time as Preservation. There might be discrepancies between how Vin learned of the plan VS how modern Brandon might write for a new Vessel. If modern Sando wrote Vin's Ascension, he would've wrote out that Vin learned Leras' plan for atium Mistings the moment she saw/learned these things - Rashek's storage caverns and strategies to hide atium, his use of the Well, Ruin's power hidden in atium, and the Pits of Hathsin themselves.

Remember that modern Brandon wrote out that Kelsier - the very unfitting Vessel - learned Leras' plan the moment Ruin uttered the word "atium." Kelsier, who wasn't even trying to delve into the "atium" thing unlike Vin

Remember, the knowledge of the Shard comes into a new Vessel gradually, not all at once. It takes some time for a Vessel to comprehend what's going on, even though their mind is greatly expanded. Shards aren't omniscient. Vin was Preservation's Vessel for less than a day, Kelsier for much longer. Moreover Vin had no idea there was any plan set up by Preservation at all, she didn't know she can look for something like that (and conscious searching is what makes Vessels learn things Shards know), while Kelsier knew there was some plan - Leras was constantly repeating that, he even saw glimpses of it when Leras showed him the future. Vin was far more focused on what's here and now and how to prevent imminent destruction. While she figured out Ruin was incomplete as well, she didn't know that's part of the plan, as she didn't know there was any plan. She hadn't been Preservation's Vessel for long enough to figure stuff out and comprehend the knowledge Shard possessed, or maybe even to comprehend the future sight itself. She was too fresh for it, too inexperienced and overwhelmed, while also being under constant pressure from Ruin. When Kelsier Ascended Ruin mostly ignored that, he was still focused on Vin the most so Kelsier had more freedom than Vin had as after Vin's Ascension Ruin stopped focusing on her only when he discovered where Atium is. 

This is evident from HoA epigraphs, where Sazed often says that he doesn't yet know something, or writes about what he believes or speculates to be the truth, not what he knows when he should have known. Plus we have WoBs that talk about it.

Quote

ch 3:

In some ways, having such power was too overwhelming, I think. This was a power that would take millennia to understand.

ch 39:

Even now, I can barely grasp the scope of all this. [...]
Adonalsium. Who, or what, it was, I do not yet know.

ch 57: 

There is more to this. Much more that even I do not yet comprehend.

Epilogue:

There is much more to this mystery. Perhaps I will tease it out eventually, as my mind grows more and more accustomed to its expanded nature. Perhaps I will determine why I was able to take the powers myself.

 

Spoiler

Questioner

When somebody takes up a Shard, do they inherently get knowledge when they get that Shard? [spoilers edited out]

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. Taking up a Shard is going to impart a large amount of knowledge, more than even a Shard can process immediately, and it will take some time. And it's going to give you the ability to access a lot of other kinds of knowledge. Shards aren't omnipresent, but they kind of are; they are able to do many things at once, they are able to focus on places and be aware of that location in a lot of instances. But at the same time, they are limited in their ability to... they don't know everything. They might be able to get access to most things, but it takes conscious... like, "I need to know this. I need to find it out. It happens it's written in a book that I can just... it's on this other planet, and I absorb it and immediately know." Assuming it's not written in a way that you can't access, which certain formats make it hard to do.

[spoilers edited out]

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

4 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Leras' ultimate goal - likely his interpretation of Preservation - was not to maintain the status quo. It was to protect Scadrial. If he wanted to maintain the status quo, Scadrial wouldn't have reached early industrial tech before Rashek's Ascension.

Yes, but that was before Ruin's imprisonment, when he made all those predictions. When he gave up his mind he was unable to perceive his plan and he was just focused on keeping the status quo (the only status quo that mattered to Leras was to keep Ruin imprisoned, the rest was irrelevant) because he didn't know where it would end. He no longer knew what the plan was, he was just a shadow of his mind. And that's why every action Leras did in SH weren't done to fulfill his end plan, they were done in the blink of a moment, to serve what's here and now, not knowing how it would affect his ultimate plan. 

By the time of Alendi or Vin, Leras was too far gone to know what the plan was, he didn't know it, he couldn't have acted on it. While Rashek might have been part of Preservation's plan before Ruin's imprisonment, this was irrelevant when dead Leras attempted to save the situation after learning Alendi would free Ruin - at that time he didn't chose Rashek because Leras knew he had a role to play in his grant plan, he chose him because he was the closest to prevent Ruin from escaping and only that mattered to Leras at that point, nothing else. 

4 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

I feel like you're ignoring a lot of things. The Plan wasn't to keep the prison active.

I'm not. I'm differentiating between Leras before Ruin's imprisonment, when he created his plan and acted on it, and after when his mind was gone and he was incapable of even knowing what his plan was, thus he would be unable to actually make any decision based on that plan. 

4 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

And how can there be the Hero without any circumstances for the Hero to arise? How can there be the Hero or atium Misting army if there's a tyrant more powerful than the Hero, or if atium isn't well known and sought out? I believe those were the roles of Rashek and his death, even if Fuzz didn't remember. 

If Rashek were to survive and Ascend again (just as Leras hoped for) nothing would happen for another 1024 years. Rashek was also the Hero, just like Vin was. That's why I believe the plan was more general, not specific. It was meant to be set in motion once Ruin is released, no matter when.

4 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

I also think Leras wanted Ruin to be released, eventually. How can the Hero of Ages use both Shards if the capabilities of one are still restricted?

He didn't want to but he knew that's inevitable no matter what he did.

4 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

And remember, Scadrians don't understand both Shards just because they're made of both Investitures. It's why Sazed is so notable among the Terris people. Vin till the moment of her death saw Ruin as nothing more than a force of death and destruction. Even Kelsier saw Ruin as this. 

Of course not everyone can do this, but everyone has the capacity to do it - that's a difference. It takes some work to understand those Shards and even Vin would be able to get that proper mindset and Ascend to Ruin, but it would take some work - just like Sazed had to work on his understanding of death. Everyone suffers in their lives, everyone loses someone important to them, grief is not something that's exclusive to Sazed. Everyone deals with it in a different way. Sazed's way of dealing with grief led him to understanding of Ruin's nature, but many could have ended up there as well. It’s hard to get to those Shardic levels, but it’s something that can still happen. 

5 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

No offense, but I think I would prefer to ignore those WoBs about Alendi. They're very early in Brandon's career and there's nothing in-story that suggests Leras was grooming Alendi to take the Shard. 

I do take offense! If we start to ignore and cherry pick WoBs because they don't fit our personal beliefs, then we're stepping into shaky grounds of confirmation bias. We should be shaping our opinions based on available data, not on our wishes. I see no reason to dismiss those WoBs, Brandon planned his work far in advance, he wrote all Mistborn books at the same time, back to back, before releasing any of them, that was done specifically to pre-plan it all. Brandon has not retconed this, nor did he said something contradictory later on, those WoBs stand true.

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

More fragile or more concealed? Ruin didn't care about Mist-Snapped until Elend discovered that they are all Allomancers - only then Ruin ordered his Koloss to attack Fadrex to wipe them out. But that was just before Vin's Ascension, if that were to happen earlier, if there were Mistborn among those Mist-Snapped, all would have realized what's going on much earlier, Ruin would have kill them all much earlier as well and nobody would be able to prevent 300,000 Koloss from killing all those inexperienced Mistborn and other Allomancers. All of those electrum Misting would have been killed long before they would get a chance to ingest Atium. 

And once again, per WoB it takes considerably more power to snap people into Mistborn - more than what it takes to snap them into 15 types of Mistsings. It's simply too much to ask from Mists, who had to work autonomously on their own, to snap Mistborn into existence. Then there would be no 16, as now you have only 2 types of snapped - Mistborn and electrum Mistings.

So you’re trying to say the Mistsnapping plan was a gambit to hide atium Allomancy from Ruin and the Mistings until the right moment. I’ll admit, that is pretty smart. Confusing but smart.

 

 

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

Remember, the knowledge of the Shard comes into a new Vessel gradually, not all at once. It takes some time for a Vessel to comprehend what's going on, even though their mind is greatly expanded. Shards aren't omniscient. Vin was Preservation's Vessel for less than a day, Kelsier for much longer. Moreover Vin had no idea there was any plan set up by Preservation at all, she didn't know she can look for something like that (and conscious searching is what makes Vessels learn things Shards know), while Kelsier knew there was some plan - Leras was constantly repeating that, he even saw glimpses of it when Leras showed him the future. Vin was far more focused on what's here and now and how to prevent imminent destruction. While she figured out Ruin was incomplete as well, she didn't know that's part of the plan, as she didn't know there was any plan. She hadn't been Preservation's Vessel for long enough to figure stuff out and comprehend the knowledge Shard possessed, or maybe even to comprehend the future sight itself. She was too fresh for it, too inexperienced and overwhelmed, while also being under constant pressure from Ruin. When Kelsier Ascended Ruin mostly ignored that, he was still focused on Vin the most so Kelsier had more freedom than Vin had as after Vin's Ascension Ruin stopped focusing on her only when he discovered where Atium is. 

This is evident from HoA epigraphs, where Sazed often says that he doesn't yet know something, or writes about what he believes or speculates to be the truth, not what he knows when he should have known. Plus we have WoBs that talk about it.

I don’t think “time” is at all relevant to Vin vs Kelsier’s knowledge of Preservation’s plans. Vin held Preservation for two days in a stable form. And iirc it was only days between Vin meeting Yomen in chains & Elend confronting Preservation, to Vin’s battle against the 13 Inquisitors. Between which Kelsier unreliably held Preservation, so that only lasted days.  Not to mention there’s Sazed… who created the Words of Founding within a few minutes of holding Harmony.

Ruin did not ignore Kelsier. He was actively blocking Kelsier’s attempts to influence the world, and was easily damaging Kelsier because of his frayed divinity. Kelsier didn’t have as much freedom as you claim, couldn’t control the power in most moments, and he was almost killed by Ruin at multiple points. Kelsier only had the barest, little word hints that Preservation had a plan - “the Hero,” “the sign,” “the plan,” “sixteen.” And he wasn’t actively trying to find out if Ruin was weakened, or where his body is, or where the atium is.

Before her first action as Preservation, Vin  seemingly spent hours floating around, exploring the world, knowing and learning things attached to the power. And unlike Kelsier, she was actively trying to figure out Ruin’s weakened state and the location of the atium cache. I say it again, this is definitely just a discrepancy between early Brandon and modern Brandon writing about Shards. The frayed, damaged Vessel-Kelsier only focused on giving the Shard to Vin automatically processed the atium Misting plan the moment Ruin said “atium.” There’s no in-universe reason Vessel-Vin couldn’t have done the same.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

If Rashek were to survive and Ascend again (just as Leras hoped for) nothing would happen for another 1024 years. Rashek was also the Hero, just like Vin was. That's why I believe the plan was more general, not specific. It was meant to be set in motion once Ruin is released, no matter when.

I heavily disagree but this is a fair take. It’s just some stuff are such a precise abnormality - like what Leras did to Kelsier and Elend - that it doesn’t seem like anything else besides part of the plan.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

I do take offense! If we start to ignore and cherry pick WoBs because they don't fit our personal beliefs, then we're stepping into shaky grounds of confirmation bias. We should be shaping our opinions based on available data, not on our wishes. I see no reason to dismiss those WoBs, Brandon planned his work far in advance, he wrote all Mistborn books at the same time, back to back, before releasing any of them, that was done specifically to pre-plan it all. Brandon has not retconed this, nor did he said something contradictory later on, those WoBs stand true.

??????

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

And iirc it was only days between Vin meeting Yomen in chains & Elend confronting Preservation, to Vin’s battle against the 13 Inquisitors. Between which Kelsier unreliably held Preservation, so that only lasted days.  

I think you have a skewed recollection of the timeline. Details Here with Secret History Cross References Here, but the crux is:

• Preservation died and Kelsier Ascended in SH P6-C4 / HoA Ch 55.
• Kelsier gets a thought through to Vin in captivity sometime later (HoA Ch 60 / P6-C4. Kelsier spends time waiting and finds Spook (P6-C5 / HoA Ch 58).
• Roughly a week after Preservation died, Elend returned to Fadrex with the new Koloss Army (HoA Ch 61 - based on time to find the army, take more than twice as long to walk back and Ham's reports of activites done in Elend's name in his absence), Elend decides to "attack tomorrow."
• Sazed meets Tensoon in Urteau and they depart for the Homeland (HoA Ch 63) days after Spook and Urteau burned ("Beldre—sat at Spook’s side. She came every day to spend time with the lad. More time, even, than she spent with her brother, Quellion").
• Kelsier meets with Spook to send the message (P6-C6), and Spook sends the message with Goradel days after Sazed left (HoA Ch 64 - implying a little time overlap between viewpoints as this is likely around the time of Elend's return).
• Elend decides to not attack (HoA Ch 65). Vin/Marsh/Yomen scenes happen (HoA Ch 65). Vin Escapes.
• Sazed arrives at the Homeland (HoA Ch 66). 
• Vin Leaves for Luthadel (HoA Ch 67 - a trip we know took Elend at least 2 days by Allomancy, but we don't have her timeline for travel).
• Kelsier prepares his double-blind with the message (P6-C7) and Goradel is intercepted by Marsh (HoA Ch 69).
• Elend and Yomen talk (the armies are integrated and Yomen wants to work on sanitation problems, implying it has been at least two days since Vin's escape and the Koloss attacked - but are now in-siege); Elend makes the Misting realization (HoA Ch 70). The Koloss renew the attack.
• Sazed is still meeting with the First Generation (and implied to be many days of doing so, as they reference previous conversations that were off-screen - HoA Ch 71)
• Vin arrives in Luthadel (HoA Ch 72) Vin Ascends. 
• The mists disappear and Elend leaves Fadrex (HoA Ch 74)
• Sazed is captured by KanPaar's rebellion (HoA Ch 75)
• Kelsier recovers from Giving up Preservation to Vin "hours and hours" after she took the power - and starts wandering since he was flung "far from Luthadel" (P6-C8)
• Elend arrives in Luthadel, leaves for the Pits (HoA Ch 77)
• Sazed is "rescued" by TenSoon and MeLaan (HoA Ch 78)
• Ruin finds KanPaar and the Trust (HoA Ch 79)
• Elend arrives at the Pits and the Terris Refugees, then finds Sazed (HoA Ch 80)
• Elend realizes the Mistfallen are Atium Mistings* (from his PoV - HoA Ch 81) They fight the Koloss.
• Sazed Ascends (HoA Ch 82 / P6-C9) 
  • Time passes while Sazed changes the world (but we don't know how much - at least a day for Spool to fall asleep burned and wake up healed - and enough time for Kelsier to "wander" the changing landscape - but there is also a lot of implied SR time shenanigans like Sazed's converation with Kelsier. 
• The survivors find the Words of Founding (HoA Epilogue)
• Kelsier speaks to Spook at least weeks later (long enough for them to build his "home" while everybody else is still sleeping the Caches (SH Epilogue)

So, the appoximate timeline is that Kelsier was Preservation's vessel for 1-2 weeks and Vin for 2-3 days. Vin spent the majority of the time fighting or making mistakes (but some time just evalutating the world and Preservation (HoA Ch 79)), While Kelsier "left" Fadrex and spent time exploring what little he could of Preservation before going to Spook in Urteau (he even admits he might have "learned" more had he known the right questions to ask while holding the power (SH Epilogue). 

@Ale the Metallic Conjurer - post update:

Note: The timeline for all of Era 1 is weird, which is why I put together that data in the first link above - here was my summary from that post:

On 7/29/2022 at 1:58 AM, Treamayne said:

TFE takes place over about 16-18 months, more than 1 year passes (TFE ending in late summer/early autumn - WoA starting in mid-to-late autumn), WoA covers about four-to-six months (ending in late winter), another 15 months or so pass, then HoA starts in early-spring and takes only two or three months and ends late-spring/early summer.

Hope that helps.

Edited April 30 by Treamayne
Clarity

[alder24]

15 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

So you’re trying to say the Mistsnapping plan was a gambit to hide atium Allomancy from Ruin and the Mistings until the right moment. I’ll admit, that is pretty smart. Confusing but smart.

Something like that. At least to hide that people will have to burn the entire Atium stock.

15 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

I don’t think “time” is at all relevant to Vin vs Kelsier’s knowledge of Preservation’s plans. Vin held Preservation for two days in a stable form. And iirc it was only days between Vin meeting Yomen in chains & Elend confronting Preservation, to Vin’s battle against the 13 Inquisitors. Between which Kelsier unreliably held Preservation, so that only lasted days.

Disagree. Kelsier had days with barely any Ruin's interest focused on him, while Vin had just hours.

Vin Ascended when the sun was rising, she rotated Scadrial back to the middle of the night and during the same night Elend arrived at Luthadel, then at the Pits and the last battle took place where he, Vin and Ati all died during the sunrise. It all happened within a single night. Vin held Preservation for less than a day, while being under constant pressure from Ruin. We've discussed it with you here.

11 hours ago, Treamayne said:

• Vin Leaves for Luthadel (HoA Ch 67 - a trip we know took Elend at least 2 days by Allomancy, but we don't have her timeline for travel).

 

Could you provide a quote for those two days? I've been reading the chapter when Elend arrived and there was no mention how long it took him. It seems to happen during the same day. He leaves when Vin Ascends in the morning, he travels during the day and during the same day Vin rotates the planet back to the nighttime and during the new sunrise they all die.

 

15 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

 Not to mention there’s Sazed… who created the Words of Founding within a few minutes of holding Harmony.

We don't know how much time has passed before they left caves. Spook fell asleep during Catacendre so I would expect hours had passed if not more. 

15 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Ruin did not ignore Kelsier.

Mostly ignored Kelsier. Ruin was focused on Vin all the time and paid little attention to Kelsier, as he knew he posed no threat to him. That's the difference between them. Kelsier was able to find a place where Ruin's attention wasn't focused - Spook - Vin couldn't as Ruin was focused on what she was doing all the time.

Quote

Ruin was too focused on this place. Too strong here. He had almost all of his attention pointed at Vin and this city of Fadrex. He was even bringing in Marsh.

SH ch 6-6:

Quote

“Whatever you do,” Ruin said to Kelsier, as if seeing him there for the first time, “I counter.”

 

15 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Kelsier only had the barest, little word hints that Preservation had a plan - “the Hero,” “the sign,” “the plan,” “sixteen.” And he wasn’t actively trying to find out if Ruin was weakened, or where his body is, or where the atium is.

That's far more than Vin had. And he did try to find out if Ruin's was weakened - that's when Ruin started to question Vin where Atium was, shortly before she Ascended, that's when Kelsier realized what it all was about. Once Shards know what to search for, the knowledge just comes to them in the blink of an eye - if it is within them, or available somewhere in the world. That's exactly what the WoB I've posted earlier said. Time matters and the right questions matter as well. SH ch 6-7:

Quote

Ruin stepped close, whispering to her. Where is the atium, Vin? he said. What do you know of it?
Atium? Kelsier drew himself near as Marsh knelt by Vin and prepared to hurt her. Atium. Why . . .
It all came together for him. Ruin wasn’t complete either. There in the broken city of Luthadel—rain washing down, ash clogging the streets, Inquisitors roosting and watching with expressionless spiked eyes—Kelsier understood.
Preservation’s plan.
It could work!

 

15 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Before her first action as Preservation, Vin  seemingly spent hours floating around, exploring the world, knowing and learning things attached to the power. And unlike Kelsier, she was actively trying to figure out Ruin’s weakened state and the location of the atium cache. I say it again, this is definitely just a discrepancy between early Brandon and modern Brandon writing about Shards. The frayed, damaged Vessel-Kelsier only focused on giving the Shard to Vin automatically processed the atium Misting plan the moment Ruin said “atium.” There’s no in-universe reason Vessel-Vin couldn’t have done the same.

There are - time and right questions. She didn't know there was a plan, she didn't know there was a hope. Kelsier knew and had more time for his mind to expand and comprehend. WoBs agree with this. And HoA as well - both Spook and Vin spoke of being overwhelmed with knowledge and needing more time to comprehend all of this that came to them. Vin started as Preservation by being disoriented and not knowing what happened to her. HoA ch 76:

Quote

Vin remained silent, though she quested out with her power, trying to get a sense of what she could do. Understanding seemed to open to her. It was like before, when she'd taken the power at the Well of Ascension. She immediately knew things. Only this time, the power was so vast—the understanding so great—that it seemed to have shocked her mind. Fortunately, that mind was expanding, and she was growing.
Awakening.
[...]
She swung about in frustration, a glowing white aura of mist with wispy tendrils expanding across the entire world. There's so much I still don't know, Vin thought.
It was an odd thing to acknowledge, with her mind broadening to include so much. Yet, her ignorance was no longer that of a person. Her ignorance was related to experience

She didn't spend that much time exploring her power, she "woke up", slowly realized she's a Shard now and immediately tried to fix things, clean ash out of the sky, rotate the planet and tried to stop the tsunami which was stopped by Ruin. Ever since Ruin was stopping every action of her. 

Edited April 30 by alder24

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Could you provide a quote for those two days? I've been reading the chapter when Elend arrived and there was no mention how long it took him. It seems to happen during the same day. He leaves when Vin Ascends in the morning, he travels during the day and during the same day Vin rotates the planet back to the nighttime and during the new sunrise they all die.

I think I meant "2 nights" (sorry, must have been more tired than I thought) - He left Fadrex, travelled all night, sun came up and started burning things, Vin "spun the world" back to sunset and he travelled that night, then arrived at Luthadel. HoA Ch 77:

Spoiler

He’d come to Luthadel hoping to find Vin, but had been forced to take a slight detour to the south in order to get around a particularly large swath of lava burning the plains around Mount Tyrian. That sight, along with the sight of Luthadel in ruin, left him very disturbed.

Where was Vin?

He jumped from building to building. He kicked up ash with each leap. Things were happening. The ash was slowly trickling away—in fact, it had mostly stopped falling. That was good, but he remembered well a short time ago when the sun had suddenly blazed with an amazing intensity. Those few moments had burned him so that his face still hurt.

Then, the sun had  . . . dropped. It had fallen below the horizon in less than a second, the ground lurching beneath Elend’s feet. Part of him assumed that he was going mad. Yet, he could not deny that it was now nighttime, even if his body—and one of the city clocks he had visited—indicated that it should have been afternoon.

So, all night travel + enough time after a sunrise (that set in seconds) to feel like afternoon again. Travel time estimated to between 16-20 hours? Which feels very short when we compare to how long it took TenSoon-as-Wolfhound to travel toward Fadrex, pick up OreSeur's blessing, get turned around at the lava and travel back to Luthadel when we know his wolfhound bones can keep up with Vin when she was trying to lose him.

I wonder if any of these timing idiosyncracies were fixed for the 10th anniversary release. 

[alder24]

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I think I meant "2 nights" (sorry, must have been more tired than I thought) - He left Fadrex, travelled all night, sun came up and started burning things, Vin "spun the world" back to sunset and he travelled that night, then arrived at Luthadel. HoA Ch 77:

  Reveal hidden contents

He’d come to Luthadel hoping to find Vin, but had been forced to take a slight detour to the south in order to get around a particularly large swath of lava burning the plains around Mount Tyrian. That sight, along with the sight of Luthadel in ruin, left him very disturbed.

Where was Vin?

He jumped from building to building. He kicked up ash with each leap. Things were happening. The ash was slowly trickling away—in fact, it had mostly stopped falling. That was good, but he remembered well a short time ago when the sun had suddenly blazed with an amazing intensity. Those few moments had burned him so that his face still hurt.

Then, the sun had  . . . dropped. It had fallen below the horizon in less than a second, the ground lurching beneath Elend’s feet. Part of him assumed that he was going mad. Yet, he could not deny that it was now nighttime, even if his body—and one of the city clocks he had visited—indicated that it should have been afternoon.

So, all night travel + enough time after a sunrise (that set in seconds) to feel like afternoon again. Travel time estimated to between 16-20 hours?

Yeah, around 16h, I've got a similar estimate in the thread I linked in my earlier post. Elend had to arrive at the Pits during the same night and he also fought for many hours before the sun rose once more.

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Which feels very short when we compare to how long it took TenSoon-as-Wolfhound to travel toward Fadrex, pick up OreSeur's blessing, get turned around at the lava and travel back to Luthadel when we know his wolfhound bones can keep up with Vin when she was trying to lose him.

I wonder if any of these timing idiosyncracies were fixed for the 10th anniversary release. 

No, I think the reason why TenSoon took so long to travel that distance was ash - he had to move in very deep ash. Elend just flew above it, without being slowed down by its deepness. HoA ch 71:

Quote

TenSoon pushed toward the crest of the hill, moving through ash that was so high that he was glad he had switched to the horse's body, for a wolfhound could never have moved through piles so deep.
The ash fell strongly where he was, limiting his visibility. I will never make it to Fadrex at this rate, he thought with anger. Even pushing hard, moving in the massive horse's body, he was moving too slowly to get far from the Homeland.

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

The Lost Metal Prologue

I just finished the prologue of The Lost Metal. And Joe turned purple. And Wayne said some disturbing stuff. And Wayne was a messed up kid. It all goes downhill from here.

There was a passage where Wayne’s ma said “He flew. Using his Allomantic powers. Jak can fly, and talk to birds, and eat rocks.” I know this is a bedtime story that comes from the pulp (and delusions) of Allomancer Jak’s stories. And iirc his stories have a talking bird companion (delusion, lie, or kandra ). Though after SH I’m curious on whether or not Handerwym - a Connecter Ferring - could technically give Jak the power to talk to birds.

I know from SH that telepathy seems to stem from Connection shenanigans. Ruin telepathically speaks to Hemalurgic constructs through Connections facilitated by spikes. Kelsier as a Cognitive Shadow spoke to Vin’s mind through his Connections to her, and did the same to Vin and Spook as a Vessel of Preservation. 

Is Handerwym able to manipulate Connection to telepathically speak to people or animals? Can he somehow extend the same power to Jak? 

 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Is Handerwym able to manipulate Connection to telepathically speak to people or animals? Can he somehow extend the same power to Jak? 

Unfortunately, that is a RAFO so far. We don't have much information on any the the Spiritual Quadrant Feruchemical Metals yet (Aluminum, Duralumin, Chromium, Nicrosil). Lots of theories (many based on the TTRPG. which is non-canon) but very few hard facts or confirmations. 

Did you enjoy the prologue? It's hard to tell, but I hope you did (as odd as it was).