So....who wants to play some D&D?

[Tulir he/him]

well we'll have to find out when/if it comes up

Watch him have a situation where this now happens. You've doomed us!!

[Emeralis00 she/her]

Watch him have a situation where this now happens. You've doomed us!!

a lvl 50-60 dragon is so broken it isn't even funny. The only reason he would use one is if he is pulling Rocks Fall Everyone Dies.

[Eerongal he/him]

a lvl 50-60 dragon is so broken it isn't even funny. The only reason he would use one is if he is pulling Rocks Fall Everyone Dies.

if i was gonna do that, i'd just use pun pun

[Tulir he/him]

I'm not sure I understood all of Pun-Pun, but he looks SCARY!! And Emeralis, he could just have it as a way for Seynir and I to get some epic weapon or something, then escape and bring the rest of you back to life. Not likely, but possible.

[Eerongal he/him]

I'm not sure I understood all of Pun-Pun, but he looks SCARY!! And Emeralis, he could just have it as a way for Seynir and I to get some epic weapon or something, then escape and bring the rest of you back to life. Not likely, but possible.

pun pun has every ability in the game at will, an infinite number of turns per round, arbitrarily high stats (he can boost them to whatever he wants at will for free), infinite reach across all planes of existence, every feat in the game, and he always goes first

Basically, he laughs at the so-called "gods" in the game, because they can't even touch him

Edit: also, if anyone really wants to know how it works, i can break it all down. It was basically done as a thought experiment (since such a build has no practical use in game)

[Tulir he/him]

So now I actually read it, and I am in awe that someone managed to think that up.

[Eerongal he/him]

So now I actually read it, and I am in awe that someone managed to think that up.

Yeah, as others say about it, it's basically "winning" at D&D

[Emeralis00 she/her]

Pun-Pun...

because one simple picture isn't enough.

[Kuri Shardweaver he/him]

Oh, good, you guys found my character sheet!

[Satsuoni he/him]

Edit: also, if anyone really wants to know how it works, i can break it all down. It was basically done as a thought experiment (since such a build has no practical use in game)

Pray do so. What do you mean, no practical use? It is mentioned that similar results can be achieved using polymorph... Now, what level do I get polymorph at?

ED:

And who goes first if there are two of them? Or if a party of 4 pun-puns meets an encounter of 3 other pun-puns?

Edited March 15, 2012 by Satsuoni

[Eerongal he/him]

Pray do so. What do you mean, no practical use? It is mentioned that similar results can be achieved using polymorph... Now, what level do I get polymorph at?

ED:

And who goes first if there are two of them? Or if a party of 4 pun-puns meets an encounter of 3 other pun-puns?

well, it has no practical use because it basically breaks the game. There's literally no way for anyone to challenge pun pun with a real challenge. It basically makes so there's nothing to do for that character. Which is why no DM will allow it, the only reason it was created was because it was a thought experiment. It's basically working within the rules to give yourself everything, and infinity of every number on your character sheet

But the basic way it works by using the ability of a creature called a Sarrukh. The sarrukh's ability is:

At will, a sarrukh can modify the form of any Scaled One native to Toril, except for aquatic and undead creatures. With a successful touch attack, it can cause one alteration of its choice in the target creature's body. The target falls unconcious for 2d4 rounds due to the shock of changing form. A successful DC 22 Fortitude dave negates both the change and the unconciousness. Sarrukh are immune to this effect. A sarrukh may use this ability to change a minor aspect of the target creature, such as the shape of its head or the color of its scales. It may also choose to make a much more significant alteration, such as converting limbs into tentacles, changing the overall body shape (snake to humanoid, for example), or adding or removing an appendage. Any ability score may be decreased to a minimum of 1 or increased to a maximum equal to the sarrukh's corresponding score. A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it. The change bestowed takes effect immediately and is permanant. Furthermore, the alterations are automatically passed on to all the creature's offspring when it breeds with another of its unmodified kind.

Basically, most serpentine/lizard-like creatures are what it catches under its umbrella when it refers to "scaled ones".

In order for it to work (the easiest way, at least) you need to be a kobold with a lizard familiar. What you do is get "assume supernatural ability", which is a feat from savage species. It lets you assume one SU ability when you shapeshift. From there, you polymorph into a Sarrukh and select manipulate form as the SU ability.

Now that you have access to it, you use it to grant that same ability to your lizard familiar, also, FYI manipulate form has a caveat that it doesnt work on a Sarrukh, so basically what you're going to do is give it to yourself when you AREN'T a sarrukh. You do this by, like i said, granting it to your familiar, shapeshifting back, then having your familiar grant it to yourself. From there, it's basically gaming a few other abilities to get yourself whatever you want.

Every single class feature is either extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like, except for spell casting. However, any spell can be converted to a spell-like ability. So you can grant any spell to yourself as many times as you want as a spell-like ability. You can also grant yourself any feat you want, by granting yourself an ability from the prestiege class chameleon, which allows you to choose a feat (and you can change it once per day). But you could keep granting it to yourself until you have all feats.

As for ability scores, it lets you modify them of each other (you and your familiar) up to whatever you ability score is (so if you have 20 STR, you can increase your familiars score up to 20). So to get it higher, they're basically using a spell from the wu-jen's spell list so increase your size from small to huge, which nets a total of +32 to str. When you have that, you transfer it to your familiar. The thing is, your familiar's strength score is a PERMANENT boost to it, and not just a bonus or anything that doesn't stack with itself. It's as if it started with that score.

So from there, you just keep increasing size, transferring the score back and forth compounding upon itself. For the other stats, it uses a couple abilities from two other prestige classes. One of them lets you add your charisma bonus to your dex score. The other ability lets you replace an ability score with another one of your choice for any ability. So from there, instead of adding your charisma to your dex score, replace it with strength, transfer your new huge dexterity score to your familiar, and then have him transfer it to you, so now your BASE score in dex is huge. From there, you just do the same thing for each score, except instead of replacing only the charisma bonus with a huge stat, you also replace the dex bonus which whatever stat you're working on (so if you want to do con, replace dex with con, and then replace charisma with your strength score) and just rinse and repeat until your bonuses are as high as you want.

So at this point, you have every feat, every class ability, every spell, and your ability scores are however high you want them to be. The link above will also cover other things like reach, skills, HD, etc. for how to get unlimited of each of those. He can also get an infinite number of actions every round by granting himself a choker's quickness over and over

Like i said, it's basically utilizing a loophole to replace every number on a character sheet with an infinity symbol, which has no practical purpose in the game.

Also, the general conclusion on pun pun vs pun pun is that it's impossible. Because there's a HUGE number of abilities that let pun pun know the future, so pun pun basically knows everything that would ever happen, including the ascension of another pun pun, which he could stop before it happens. Basically the way to "win" in a pun pun duel is to be the first pun pun

[Satsuoni he/him]

What if a punpun gets lonely and "breeds with another unmodified one of its kind". A child will be a punpun, and so the race of punpuns will be born.

Also, if you keep increasing the size of your familiar, it will grow larger than a planet quite soon

Ed: So, this essentially hinges on a ridiculously overpowered ability of this Sarrukh critter. That made me think - what, exactly, stops me from polymorphing into a Noble Djinni and granting three wishes to a party member, then polymorphing him/her into djinni, granting me 3 wishes, rinse and repeat?

Edited March 15, 2012 by Satsuoni

[Eerongal he/him]

What if a punpun gets lonely and "breeds with another unmodified one of its kind". A child will be a punpun, and so the race of punpuns will be born.

Also, if you keep increasing the size of your familiar, it will grow larger than a planet quite soon

Ed: So, this essentially hinges on a ridiculously overpowered ability of this Sarrukh critter. That made me think - what, exactly, stops me from polymorphing into a Noble Djinni and granting three wishes to a party member, then polymorphing him/her into djinni, granting me 3 wishes, rinse and repeat?

well, i'm not sure polymorph would grant the wishes ability, though looking at it, it doesnt state what type of ability it is (which is odd, though it can only be one of SP, EX, or SU), so if its SP (spell-like), then you would have to wait until shapechange anyways (which at that point you can all ready cast more than 3 wishes a day anyways), if it's SU (supernatural), then you could get it with the above mentioned feat. I highly doubt it would be EX (extraordinary), since that's for aspects of a creature not magical-based, but are mundane special qualities or abilities. And i highly doubt duplicating a spell is mundane. My money would be on SP, or spell-like, since it duplicates a spell.

Also, with the increase size thing, you dont KEEP growing. You grow to get the bonus, transfer the bonus, dismiss the spell, do the same with your familiar, and then rinse and repeat. Because the thing it, the bonus you give to the OTHER creature (you or your familiar) is NOT a size bonus like you get from the spell, it's permanent. So you're basically doing the same thing over and over to keep increasing the amount of permanent strength you're getting.

so for example:

PC Strength - 10

Familiar Strength - 5

PC uses giant size, strength = 10+32 size bonus, or 42.

PC increases familiar's strength to 42.

Familiar strength = 42

PC strength = 10+32 size bonus

PC dismisses giant size

Familiar grants PC 42 Strength

PC Strength - 42

Familiar Strength - 42

rinse and repeat.

[Satsuoni he/him]

Oh, well. What about the pumping breeding habits?

Also, when are we going into a dungeon? And can we have a test encounters onside, to acquaint me/us with the mechanics?

[Eerongal he/him]

Oh, well. What about the pumping breeding habits?

Also, when are we going into a dungeon? And can we have a test encounters onside, to acquaint me/us with the mechanics?

Well, that's up to the party, i suppose, since i can't really FORCE you guys to head to the dungeon, but i believe the plan was for you guys to skip town and head to the dungeon, so pretty much once you get out of town.

Also, I could maybe set up a quick scenario later tonight. The way i'm going to work it is that I'm going to draw the scene for you guys to see when a fight comes up, so it'll have to wait until i'm home from work before i can do that

[Emeralis00 she/her]

Eero. That topic made me laugh.

[Eerongal he/him]

Eero. That topic made me laugh.

hey, a practice fight was requested. I just delivered.

[Rayonn]

Is it too late for me to join? I have no experience with D&D, but I do pick things up fast.

[Eerongal he/him]

Well, there's a party of 4 getting ready to enter the dungeon right now, and we have a few people making characters for a second party, though i'm not sure where they are in the process, and they might need a few people to form a full party, so it's probably not too late.

[Rayonn]

Which roles does the second party need? I'm thinking of building a meatshield type character - would a paladin work for that?

[Eerongal he/him]

Which roles does the second party need? I'm thinking of building a meatshield type character - would a paladin work for that?

Paladin certainly would. As far as the characters, i know one is intended to be an artificer, but I have no idea what the other intends to be. The two players are Kuri shardweaver and Kchan. Kuri is going to be an artificer, and no idea what Kchan wants to be. That is, of course, so long as they're still interested in playing, haven't heard from them in a bit.

[Tulir he/him]

Do we even have a meatshield? I'm not sure we do.

[Satsuoni he/him]

Not really, no. We have a relatively meaty cleric and factotum.

Eero, what are the stats of a new body? Do I still have the spell pouch? Is that a gun?

[Eerongal he/him]

Not really, no. We have a relatively meaty cleric and factotum.

Eero, what are the stats of a new body? Do I still have the spell pouch? Is that a gun?

Same as your stats. I'm just making it all up so that you have a reason for a fake fight. It has no actual bearing on the story or anything, so its basically just your character. Also, its a wand, but its kinda hard to see

[Satsuoni he/him]

What wand? I dOn't have one. Also, I roll d20 or d100? I am guessing d20

Edited March 17, 2012 by Satsuoni