Use of Rhythms in extracting Investature

[Ookla of Void]

RoW spoilers

Quote

Navani sings the Anti-Voidlight tone while touching the Sibling's heart, causing the voidlight to retreat

What if you sing the Anti-Rhythm to Ruin while spiking a person, causing the Preservation side to be dominant so you can steal the Investiture to make a spike for a Metallic Art, or another Invested art. Can you spike a spren to gain Honor's investature to gain the Surge of Adhesion without a spren bond/Unchained Bondsmith. Any other ideas or takes on this?

[Quantus]

Most people are too much of an individual convoluted wad of their own Selves that they arent significantly One shard or another, compared to a Spren that is Pure Investiture that Woke Up.  You might be able to make a meaningful effect on a Scadrian, but even there it's a matter of sDNA more than literal, active Investiture.   

[Ookla the Silver]

7 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

RoW spoilers

What if you sing the Anti-Rhythm to Ruin while spiking a person, causing the Preservation side to be dominant so you can steal the Investiture to make a spike for a Metallic Art, or another Invested art. Can you spike a spren to gain Honor's investature to gain the Surge of Adhesion without a spren bond/Unchained Bondsmith. Any other ideas or takes on this?

Honestly, I'm pretty sure the first part wouldn't work. Ignoring any issues with getting the rhythm to work on the spike, removing ruin wouldn't add preservation to a spike. That's just not how that works. Preservation and Ruin are not as opposed as people think. Extra investiture doesn't automatically grant surges, Kel doesn't have allomancy despite being a cog shadow of preservation. You could steal both sides of a Nahel bond to do unchecked surgebinding, but I doubt you can steal one surge from a spren. Maybe you could kidnap a fused?

[alder24]

22 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

RoW spoilers

What if you sing the Anti-Rhythm to Ruin while spiking a person, causing the Preservation side to be dominant so you can steal the Investiture to make a spike for a Metallic Art, or another Invested art.

I think in that case you won't create any Hemalurgic spike. I personally believe that when you create a spike, the charge is either corrupted by Ruin, or some of Ruin's investiture is provided from SR so you can rip that piece of investiture from the soul. Without Ruin's investiture, you won't be able to create any spike - if I'm right.

Technically what you are stealing when taking Allomantic or Feruchemical powers is only/mostly Preservation's investiture. What Set was stealing when making their spikes in TLM was also innate investiture, only/mostly Preservation's investiture. In both cases you're stealing Preservation's fragment, which is pure Preservation's investiture, there is no Ruin there. I'm saying mostly, because there might be some additional parts of the soul, so some bits of Ruin's investiture might be stolen as well, but that's a tiny amount if this is happening at all. Proper intent and Command might eliminate this and allow you to steal precisely what you want and nothing more (almost what Set was doing). In other ways, you don't need to do what you propose, as you don't steal Ruin's investiture, only Preservation's.

25 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

Can you spike a spren to gain Honor's investature to gain the Surge of Adhesion without a spren bond/Unchained Bondsmith.

The power of Surgebinding is the result of Nahel Bond - you need to not only steal the power from a spren, but also steal the bond from spren's knight. Raw investiture doesn't grant you any powers, so you won't get any invested arts by stealing just raw investiture.

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

If I wanted to Hemalurgically acquire a power from First of the Sun, which metal would the spike need to be?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This is going to be pretty complicated, but several metals would work.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would it involve Connection between the person being spiked and the bird?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well it would be even harder than on Roshar, where you need to somehow spike the spren and also the Radiant. You would need to spike the bird and steal the power, but also spike the person and steal Connection.

GenCon 2017 (Aug. 17, 2017)

 

You can't really make the Shardic investiture which makes up the soul go away. It's stuck in the soul and even anti-tone won't push it out. With The Sibling that was something else, as they were infused with Voidlight, but their soul wasn't mixed with Odium's investiture. That's why Navani could push it out. But when that tone was played in the presence of Raboniel, her soul shivered but was not pushed out. When playing the anti-tone during Hemalurgy, you would most likely still steal that investiture as it's still a part of the soul.

[Ookla of Void]

2 hours ago, Argenti said:

Honestly, I'm pretty sure the first part wouldn't work. Ignoring any issues with getting the rhythm to work on the spike, removing ruin wouldn't add preservation to a spike. That's just not how that works. Preservation and Ruin are not as opposed as people think. Extra investiture doesn't automatically grant surges, Kel doesn't have allomancy despite being a cog shadow of preservation. You could steal both sides of a Nahel bond to do unchecked surgebinding, but I doubt you can steal one surge from a spren. Maybe you could kidnap a fused?

The point of the Rhythms is to limit the amount of Ruin you get and more Preservation. Maybe you can get stronger Allomancy with more Preservation 

[Ookla the Silver]

55 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

The point of the Rhythms is to limit the amount of Ruin you get and more Preservation. Maybe you can get stronger Allomancy with more Preservation 

You wouldn't get more Preservation, just less Ruin. And since hemalurgy is at least partially powered by Ruin, you would make either a worse spike, or it just might not work at all.

[Trusk'our]

7 hours ago, Xiahida said:

What if you sing the Anti-Rhythm to Ruin while spiking a person, causing the Preservation side to be dominant so you can steal the Investiture to make a spike for a Metallic Art, or another Invested art. Can you spike a spren to gain Honor's investature to gain the Surge of Adhesion without a spren bond/Unchained Bondsmith. Any other ideas or takes on this?

 

5 hours ago, Xiahida said:

The point of the Rhythms is to limit the amount of Ruin you get and more Preservation. Maybe you can get stronger Allomancy with more Preservation 

So basically, you propose that attuning the Anti-Tone of Ruin while trying to charge a Hemalurgic spike would cause Preservation's Intent to overcome Ruin's, thereby allowing you to remove Ruin's Intent from the spike, thus allowing you to make better, more refined powers?

I don't think that this would work as you propose- Ruin's Investiture is removing the Spiritweb fragments, so using an Anti-Tone while trying to charge a spike would probably result in the Investiture being unable to "hear" your Intent to spike someone, meaning you'd only cause a physical injury with no charging of the spike.

Additionally, it is my current belief that Hemalurgic spikes are charged with Ruin's Investiture, changing the Intent of the Donor's Investiture to that of Ruin's (otherwise there should be no added Connection to Ruin from bearing more spikes, as it would still count as original Donor's Investiture, but Steel Inquisitors were definitely Connected more strongly to Ruin than Preservation). So, making Preservation dominant would probably make the Investiture of the spikes less efficient, perhaps moving one step further along the path that Hemalurgy has already taken- less powers can be added in total to a host, no Compounding, etc.

I think that you could potentially make the spikes stronger by using Ruin's Tone or the correct Command or Intent however, perhaps making the ruinous aspect more dominant and thereby creating a spike that worked more like the ones of the Pre Catecendre age.

[Ookla of Void]

12 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I think that you could potentially make the spikes stronger by using Ruin's Tone or the correct Command or Intent however, perhaps making the ruinous aspect more dominant and thereby creating a spike that worked more like the ones of the Pre Catecendre age.

Meaning you can receive more powers from spikes? Interesting...Now we just have to bypass the Flaw

[Trusk'our]

1 hour ago, Xiahida said:

Meaning you can receive more powers from spikes? 

Yup, and that Compounding might be available without fear of Identity Contamination preventing it.

Also, it might just make the powers granted more efficient as well, since added Connection to the Shard makes the powers operate more efficiently.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/120/#e1901

Oversleep (paraphrased)

Allomantic strength. There are stronger Allomancers, they can burn metals faster, right?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, they can also squeeze more power out of it. They can use it more efficiently.

Oversleep (paraphrased)

So there is some loss of power along the way? How do savants work into that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Savants can use it way more efficiently. They are more Connected to the Shard. Closer to Spiritual Realm.

1 hour ago, Xiahida said:

Interesting...Now we just have to bypass the Flaw

Got a whole thread on it