Urithiru

[Meg]

First, I know I'm doing thread-necormancy. If this is undesired, please tell me, so I will not do this anymore.

Is this possibly an indication that the Roshar has not always had highstorms? Can someone with an ebook version look for east/west?

I didn't see an answer to this but I was looking for something and in a trice I found "east" and "west" sometimes:

• Prime Map of the Shattered Planes
  
• Chapter 46: Kaladin's Ride on the Storm

  He did see that the eastern side of the plains ...
  He took a path to the southwest ...

• Chapter 34: Kaladin's punishment

  His back was to the wall so that he face eastward.

I don't have an ebook so this are sure only a few quotes.

So Urithiru was built close to the Origin right?

If that is the case then Urithiru cannot be in Shinover.

Interludes, Page 442

"It has formed a face, looking eastward. Directly toward the Origin."

(sometimes the quote box doesn't work and it really pisses me off.)

The various editions of the book are sometimes pretty confusing. Without any further hint I had to flip through the book and found the above mentioned quote on page 547 in my book. It's about the "sea-spren" in Kasitor. And when I remember well Dalinar (or Kaladin?) also looks eastward to the Origin. I can't give an quote or page, please don't force me for another book-flipping :)/>/>.

From here it's kind of guessing and gut instincts:

While reading this thread I found myself -- like some others here -- thinking that Urithiru is on an island.

By instinct after reading the part with Kaladin's Stormriding I were sure, Urithiru is lost in the Shattered Planes. I can not give any objective reasons for this feeling.

But now?

Flipping through the book I crossed over the Ocean in the very south-east part of Roshar: "Oceans of Origin", and more exiting: there is an arrow pointing more to the east, so to speak pointing outside of Roshar (to nonentity or Shadesmar or ...?). Therefore I think my feeling is wrong.

Apart from this I wondered if Urithiru is a sunken city (and had been an island long ago), may be in the Pure Lake (after all there are "magic" fishes in this lake).

One last thought although it is probably off-topic: After I've read the "First Parshendi Reading" I kind of ask myself which city is "shattered" there. And here closes the circle, because I again believe Urithiru is lost in the Shattered Planes.

And now I lost my train of thought. I hope my thoughts are not too confusing.

[hoser]

I don't know about attitudes toward thread necromancy either.

The shattered plains are in what was once Natanatan and are east of Roshar. Urithiru is said to be to the west of Roshar. The city in the shattered plains is presumably the former capital of Natanatan.

Edited December 12, 2012 by hoser

[Observer]

"The announcer"

That sounds disturbingly similar to the Terris religion's figure. Ten bucks says this announcer is real and tied into why seeing future is forbidden.

[The Count]

***SOME MISTBORN SPOILERS BELOW***

I realise I am just prolonging the demise of this thread, but I just wanted to add some of my thoughts.

“Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor.”

emphasis mine

This quote got me thinking (an I may be reading waaaaay to much into one word here) but it does say "the" place nearest to Honor, definite article.

This implys a geographical, or at least fixed, location for Honor. Now I suppose Honor in this case could be either Shard itself, or some holy place / relic of the same name, but I think it may be where Honor (the shard) had some from of material manifestation, call it his body (although I do not necessarily mean Human body here).

Urithiru was then built as close to this location as possible. I imagine something like Honor's body being under a mountain, on top of which Urithiru was built.

Speculating further, this means that the 'Death' of Honor could mean the destruction of his body... (not sure that this actually works well as a theory since the burning of Atium did not cause Ruin to become splintered - maybe if the atium was destroyed completely??)

Anyway, I am sure that there must have been an actual location on Roshar that the builders of Urithiru assocaited with Honor directly - I am not entirely sold on the close to the sky theory.

Edited December 21, 2012 by MadRand

[Observer]

It could mean a shardpool, though I doubt Brandon will use that theme again. More likely it is some place shardically saturated, such as:

The location the Oathpact was made

The location where Honor "landed" on Roshar

The place of an ascension

Somebody's Shardpool

The location where most of Honor's splinters went

The location where the physical and spiritual are unusually close

Take your pick.

[Inkthinker]

Slightly different question about Urithiru: The word "Urithiru" is perfectly symmetrical. While symmetry is a big thing in Vorinism, I had thought that it really wasn't that important before Vorinism (The Heralds had not very symmetrical names, but then Vorinism changed them to make them more symmetrical, etc.) So why does all evidence say that Urithiru was a city from before Vorinism?

It's not perfectly symmetrical... that would be "Urihiru" or "Urithtiru". Though I don't think that's necessarily important.

Edited December 23, 2012 by Inkthinker

[Elwynn]

It's not perfectly symmetrical... that would be "Urihiru" or "Urithtiru". Though I don't think that's necessarily important.

On Roshar that's perfectly symmetrical. The 'th' sound is a single character in their writing. Thus making it perfect in their language.

Same thing goes for a few other sounds in their language as well.

[lDanielHolm]

It's not perfectly symmetrical... that would be "Urihiru" or "Urithtiru". Though I don't think that's necessarily important.

No, it's perfectly symmetrical--even in English. Pronunciation is what matters, and a digraph (a sound which cannot be expressed by a single letter) is still a distinct sound. "Th", specifically, actually was a single letter--thorn (þ). It was simply abandoned when we began printing books instead of writing them by hand, as French printing presses didn't have it, and it was easier to use 'y' instead, as the original letter in some typefaces could be mistaken for it. (This is why you'll see signs with 'Ye olde shoppe'--the 'y' is not because they are personifying the shop, it's simply to stand-in for þ.) Eventually þ was replaced by 'th', but the digraph can still easily be considered a single letter.

The Rosharan alphabet--as Elwynn so rightly points out--treats most digraphs as single letters, so even if you insist on literal symmetrical spelling, it works.

[Inkthinker]

Mmph. I should have caught that... I spent enough time translating English into Allomantic script to know better. I never dealt with Rosharan script, all alphabet stuff comes from Isaac, but it's not surprising that the themes carry over.

[Jesters Armed]

<snip>

As far as Urithiru being in Shinovar goes, I really like the idea. The only problems I see with it is that it seems too far for Nohadon to walk from Alethela in a matter of weeks and I don't know that it is one of the Silver kingdoms or one of the Vorin nations (although I vaguely remember Shallan being surprised at how many Vorin nations existed). Would Urithiru have been built in a non-Vorin area? I wonder whether it could be in a mountain range between nations, sort of the way the District of Columbia is not in any state.

<snip>

When Nohadon reaches Urithiru - and before he jumps into musing about journey vs. destination, he's taking a bath and has his hair and beard cut, which have grown (very?) long during the journey.

I only have the audiobook of WoK and was unable to find that passage again; but do we get a hint of just -how much- his hair and beard have grown (shoulder/waist/knee/something)?.

My point: we know, human hair grows ca. 1 cm/ month. If we could get verification of how much his hair has grown, we could approximate, how long his journey took. Applying the estimates of another poster in this thread that a person can travel some 20 miles/day that could give us a closer look at the distance and/or dimensions in general.

Also, first post (*trembles*), non-native English speaker.

[lDanielHolm]

Human hair growth--and especially beard growth--varies a bit too much to use this as a guide, I think.

[little wilson]

I only have the audiobook of WoK and was unable to find that passage again; but do we get a hint of just -how much- his hair and beard have grown (shoulder/waist/knee/something)?.

What 1DanielHolm said is true, but in case you were still curious about what the book says, all it says is this:

My mane had grown quite robust without a razor to tame it.

So no definitive answer concerning exactly how long his beard grew.

As far as Urithiru being in Shinovar goes, I really like the idea. The only problems I see with it is that it seems too far for Nohadon to walk from Alethela in a matter of weeks and I don't know that it is one of the Silver kingdoms or one of the Vorin nations (although I vaguely remember Shallan being surprised at how many Vorin nations existed). Would Urithiru have been built in a non-Vorin area? I wonder whether it could be in a mountain range between nations, sort of the way the District of Columbia is not in any state.

Shinovar is a Silver Kingdom. It just doesn't have the name Shinovar. Shin Kak Nish. And, in theory, it could've been a Vorin kingdom. Shallan's history books talk about the 5 Vorin kindgoms, and she's only familiar with four--Jah Keved (Valhav), Alethkar (Alethela), Kharbranth (Thalath), and Natanatan. Of course, geographically, it would make the most sense for the fifth Vorin kindgom to be Rishir as opposed to jumping across the entire continent to Shin Kak Nish, but who knows?

And anyway, I don't recall anywhere that says that Urithiru had to've been built in a Vorin kindgom...Am I just forgetting something (I just BARELY read the book for the second time, and I'll admit that I am far, far behind on Brandon's revelations for the Stormlight Archive), or is this just a theory that Urithiru needs to be in a Vorin kingdom? If anything, I would think it wouldn't be in a Vorin kingdom, since Vorinism seems to claim so heavily that Urithiru is a myth.

Personally, I like the idea of Urithiru being either where the Nightwatcher is in The Valley, or in the mountains near it. It's pretty close to the middle of the continent, which would mean lots of trade and traffic would go through there. Also, right now, people avoid the Nightwatcher and even the ones who do go, don't speak of it, and if they have to, they only say the minimum and talk are ashamed (Dalinar comes to mind). It is a "lost city" that many people think of as only myth, so many people may no recognize it. If the Nightwatcher is some sort of spren, it could be related to the KR somehow, and maybe it's at the entrance to the city or something?

This. Before I read this, I agreed about the mountains near The Valley, because I was thinking southern Sela Tales. Which is that mountain range. Your reasoning for it being near The Valley, however, makes a lot of sense. People DO avoid it, and Vorinism preaches against it, since it's the Old Magic. And what else do we know Vorinism preaches against? The Knights Radiant, perhaps? Not that that means anything, because a lot of people look down on the KR, regardless of whether they are Vorin or not. But I do think it's a very strong possibility. Even if we don't know why it would be the place 'nearest to Honor.'

Anyway, I think it's obvious that Urithiru will need to be discovered at some point. The Dawnchant will help with that, thanks to Dalinar....Jasnah's going to have a lot of studying and translation to do when she gets back to the Shattered Plains.

I also think that some of those lost Blades and Plate are in Urithiru. Not all of them, by any means. I definitely think there are multiple groups hoarding the Blades and Plate, but some of them will have been abandoned in Urithiru, and I personally think that that's where Kaladin will pick up his. I think so far, any Plates or Blade he has a chance of getting will be rejected by him for the same reason the others were--he saw them kill people that he loved. Even Dalinar's Blade seemed wrong to Syl, and that was a Blade held in the hands of an honorable man. I think he'll have to get a more 'untainted' Blade. And Plate, if he goes for Plate. I don't see why he wouldn't, though. Szeth says it messes with his ability to use the Lashings, but that clearly can't be the case for the Knights Radiant. They just need to find a way to light them back up. Maybe that's what Syl felt was wrong....

[lDanielHolm]

Another problem with the idea of calculating Nohadon's travels is that we don't have either point. We don't know where Abamabar was. We only know that they were "hundreds of miles" apart, at least by foot. Heh! Maybe the Shattered Plains was Abamabar.

Concerning Urithiru's location...

The main problem I have is that Urithiru is where the Orders of the Knights Radiant were centered, only not in Alethela, despite the Orders themselves living in that kingdom. While that problem could be gotten around with Oathgates and what-not, I've always just thought Urithiru was located somewhere just west of Alethela's western border.

I was looking at the map of the Silver Kingdoms epoch from Brandon's site, and I noticed that the Horneater Peaks bordered western Alethela... so my current pet theory is that Urithiru (or the ruins of it) is located in the Peaks, and that that is indirectly related to Rock being able to see Syl.

Edited December 30, 2012 by lDanielHolm

[little wilson]

I kind of think that same thing. That's why I really don't think Urithiru was in Shin Kak Nish. Because it's way too far away from Alethela. And at one point, I also thought the Horneater Peaks, the western edge of them that isn't in Alethela, because I noticed exactly what you did--that they're the western border of Alethela. But then I started thinking about how Valhav is a Vorin Kingdom, and not just A Vorin Kingdom, it's the most prominent Vorin Kingdom. Or at least it's present-day manifestation of Jah Keved is. And Vorinism preaches that Urithiru is a myth and that the Knights Radiant are to be hated.

However, as I was just typing that out, another possibility occurred to me. Maybe Vorinism hates them so much because they take a personal offense to it--because Urithiru was in Valhav, a Vorin kingdom. Although that wouldn't explain why they claim it's a myth. Wouldn't they know that it's not? Because they would know where it is?

[lDanielHolm]

I've assumed it's simply been so long since the city was occupied that it passed into myth.

We know at least Kholinar survives from the time of Nodadon, so that would probably contribute too; the other great cities that Kabsal has patterns for are probably as old as Kholinar, and if they survived but Urithiru did not, it would reinforce the idea that Urithiru didn't really exist in the first place.

Edited December 30, 2012 by lDanielHolm

[little wilson]

That does make sense. The only real issues I have with it are in-world issues. I mean, what kind of scholar denounces the existence of a city based on that kind of evidence? "Oh, we can't find the ancient city of Urithiru, so it must not exist, because we have found all of these other ancient cities." Never mind that those scholars have access to texts that we as readers do not. And we as readers have deduced that Urithiru was probably on a pretty inaccessible mountaintop. But I guess the scholars just go "No, we're not listening! It couldn't possibly be on a mountaintop! I don't care if we haven't checked each and every mountaintop. It doesn't exist! "....I wonder if said scholars like being proven wrong....

Edited December 30, 2012 by little wilson

[Meg]

There is something twirling around in my head (once again) and it's kind of fitting in here, I think.

Roshar is a planet, so I think one could see it as a globe. When looking on a globe "east" and "west" kind of relates on what one has chosen as the central point. (For example: focusing on the North Atlantic Ocean the USA are west of it; focusing on the North Pacific Ocean the USA are east of it). I have the feeling that we should remember this. So if somebody brought this aspect up before, I apologize.

[Dros]

I mean, what kind of scholar denounces the existence of a city based on that kind of evidence? "Oh, we can't find the ancient city of Urithiru, so it must not exist, because we have found all of these other ancient cities."

That's actually how a lot of scholars treat ancient writings about many cities. Troy? They thought it was just a figment of Homer's imagination for quite some time. There have been others treated as such...until they were found. Plato describes Atlantis, do you know any scholars who would say there's no reason to think it's a myth?

I think Brandon gets it right on this type of stuff. As civilization moves along, fact and fiction, legend and myth, names and places really get jumbled up over time. We're still not really sure what happened to the Mayans and we don't know much about the Incans, and these guys were around only 500 years ago. And their descendants are still around too...they don't really know what those cultures were all about either. They have an idea, sure, but the details are sketchy. Random pyramids and majestic cities have been found in the middle of South and Central American forests just in this century.

I think Brandon is pointing out how easily history can be forgotten...or turned around to fit one's own beliefs.

If the KR are seen as one of the most vile organizations throughout history, it would probably benefit the Vorins to say they never liked 'em anyway...they would probably go this route: "Urithiru? Right smack in the middle of a Vorin kingdom? Didn't exist, okay!? So, we weren't involved in this whole Recreance thing, okay!? Besides, we hate the KR, okay!? So don't be pissed off at us...not our fault...didn't really know 'em anyway. So, KRs? Punks. No way they could build something like Urithiru. We're better than them. By the way, we're taking over."

Also, Meg, didn't one of the quotes say that Urithiru couldn't be in Alethkar, so they decided to put in the West, near Honor? I think that would mean Alethkar should be your starting point.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Droz

[little wilson]

That's actually how a lot of scholars treat ancient writings about many cities. Troy? They thought it was just a figment of Homer's imagination for quite some time. There have been others treated as such...until they were found. Plato describes Atlantis, do you know any scholars who would say there's no reason to think it's a myth?

That's actually exactly what I mean. It's something we've seen in our world many times. Scholars have said a city doesn't exist, only to find that they were wrong. And that's why I say my issues with it is in-world. It makes sense in the fact that that is how scholars are. So Brandon is totally correct in writing it this way, because it's right. My beef is that scholars who think in absolutes about things like this should know that they are going to be wrong. Or at least that there is a very good chance that they will be. But I know that that has nothing to do with the theory or the writing or anything like that. It's just an issue I have with supposedly-intelligent people in general who disregard logic. Even though they are probably thinking they are being logical in making the assumptions they are making.... /tangent.

ANYWAY. I think you're right about Vorinism. Which makes it all the more likely Urithiru is in Valhav/Jah Keved. Although why that is considered the place nearest to Honor is beyond me. Thus far.

[Kurkistan]

^It could be less a case of "Troy didn't exist, fool" and more a case of "El Dorado didn't exist, fool" on the scholar's part. Allegory and whatnot.

[Dros]

And that's why I say my issues with it is in-world

.

Oh. Understood.

[Meg]

Serio-comical: I found Urithiru.

Err ... There is a tale about Parasaphi who climbed the peaks of Dara to find stones touched by the Heralds themselves (intending to repopulate her fallen people and so founding Marnah, the Origin of the Makabaki). I think the Heralds had been in Urithiru too (as for the "steps crafted for Heralds" seem to have been in Urithiru? TWoK Epigraph Ch. 36). But, I've to admit, I don't really have an idea where these peaks of Dara might be/have been.

EDIT: Idea discarded because I didn't think about chronology.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Meg

[lDanielHolm]

Well, the Makabaki originate from somewhere in what was the Silver Kingdom Epoch country Makabakam, which has split into many, many small nations, the biggest of which is Azir. Half of Makabakam was encircled by mountains, though, so it's not really feasible to narrow it down further.

But since this story is about the origin of the Makabaki, who presumably founded Makabakam, I doubt that Parasaphi found the ruins of Urithiru. I very much doubt Urithiru was in ruins, if it was even built, by the time Makabakam was founded.

[Stephen]

I think Urithiru is "The Tower" in the Shattered Plains. I don't know how it got there because they DID say they REQUESTED it be built in the West. Shinovar is an extremely good viewpoint. However, there IS a city in the Tower in the Shattered Plains and here are the reasons I think it is Urithiru.

 

Dalinar nodded and Sadeas jumped off the rock formation, dropping down to the surface below and joining his officers. Dalinar lingered, looking over at the Tower. It was not only larger than most plateaus, it was rougher, covered with lumpish rock formations of hardened crem. The patterns were rolling and smooth, yet very uneven—like a field full of short walls covered by a blanket of snow.  Page 2010

 

Highstorms dropped stormwater, and stormwater carried crem. If left alone, crem eventually hardened into stone. Buildings grew stalactites, formed by stormwater slowly dripping from the eaves.  Page 811

 

The Tower is a city. It might not be Urithiru, but here is why I think it is.

 

The Shattered Plains are shattered for a reason. Most places (theory places) think it has something to do with a big event in the cosmere. My theory is that Urithiru was in the sky and fell when Honor died (when the Almighty was overpowered by Odium). You would think it would fall directly down (and therefore land in Shinovar, or somewhere in the west), but perhaps not. Perhaps it was never really in the West and they just WANTED it to be there.

 

He roared past the Shattered Plains. They looked as if something very large had hit them at the center, sending rippling breaks outward.   Page 1455

 

This could also make sense why it seems the voidbringers seem to cluster there. If the voidbringers infiltrated and brought down Urithiru, then that would be their origin, or center of focus. We know (or think we know) the voidbringers are the Parshendi/Parshmen/Chasm Fiends (which all seem to be carapaced animals that can somehow mutate into different forms).

 

Regardless, there IS a city in the Shattered Plains (it is the Tower).

 

PS - Why is there so much crem/dust in the air anyway? It makes it seem like either this dust is being carried for MILES (in the air, high - which with the power of a highstorm is possible) OR there is potentially something above them dropping dirt.

Edited July 13, 2013 by Stephen

[Stephen]

Also - I think Oathgates (or some form of fast travel) are almost an absolute.

 

“Though I was due for dinner in Veden City that night, I insisted upon visiting Kholinar to speak with Tivbet. The tariffs through Urithiru were growing quite unreasonable. By then, the so-called Radiants had already begun to show their true nature.”  Page 1454

 

He's going to travel through Urithiru (which is presumably in Shinovar) AND through Kholinar (within Alethela) in one day? Fast travel through some sort of warp gates... It's the only logical thing.

 

I wonder if perhaps the fast travel method was IN the highstorms. In Kaladin's "dream" while in the highstorm, he is carried away across the entire continent in minutes. Then, a voice says:

 

MEN RIDE THE STORMS NO LONGER. The voice was thunder, crashing in the air. THE OOATHPACT IS BROKEN, CHILD OF HONOR.  Page 1459

 

IF Urithiru was in the air they would build it near mountains (to build something close to it). The Shattered Plains are almost surrounded by mountains and that is a rather large mountain range. IF Urithiru was a source by which people could ride the winds from place to place (maybe the Oathgates used highstorm winds somehow), then closer to the Origin might be better. Two big IF's, but it could make sense.