Urithiru

[Zas678]

You know, maybe "where Honor lies" isn't in the West. In our early culture, (and in our present culture), if you ask someone where Heaven and God is, they'll point up.

So perhaps Uritihiru is being put in the West because there's a really high spot where they could make a city.

EDIT- And I'm working on my Spren theory. It will be here soon. And it's not so much a Spren thoery, as a spren stance of what I believe, and why I back it up.

EDIT 2- Another random idea- Maybe "where Honor lies" isn't where Honor lays- maybe it's where Honor doesn't tell the truth. Or where the Honorable thing to do is to not tell the truth.

Edit on Edit 2- Umm... Eri pointed out correctly that it's not "Place where Honor lies" but the "Place closest to Honor" Here it is:

“Though many wished Urithiru tobe built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was thatwe asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor.”

[Windrunner]

EDIT- And I'm working on my Spren theory. It will be here soon. And it's not so much a Spren thoery, as a spren stance of what I believe, and why I back it up.

I can't wait to see it Zas. This apparent incongruency between the Orders and spren has bugged me for a while, so it'll be nice to see a potential explanation.

[Dros]

I have a couple questions about the quote that maybe some of you might be able to provide some insight. The quote ends by saying U. should be built further West to be closer to Honor.

I just thought of this, but isn't it strange that someone in world, not Hoid or a Herald or the guy in the storm or anyone quoted in historical writings, referred to the Almighty's Shard name? I don't think anyone else does that. They always refer to the Almighty don't they? Does any other character do that? It sounds like at that time, the people of Roshar were aware of a Shard named Honor present on the planet. As far as I can tell, that's not true at present on Roshar. The gods they recognize are the Heralds.

Also, building a city is a pretty permanent thing. This denotes that Honor was not mobile at that time and building a city near him was a perfectly reasonable request. I know that in other Sanderson Cosmere books, Shards are present as liquid pools in the physical realm. Is it possible Honor was present in some similar form as well and it was well known among the populace?

This doesn't really help locate the city, but it seems relevant for some reason. Maybe Honor's physical presence powered the Oathgates and after Honor departed or was killed, there was no reason for the KR to stay there and they simply abandoned it because it was of no further use without Honor's presence. Maybe the abandonement of U. corresponds with the date Odium killed Honor.

[b4dave]

You know, maybe "where Honor lies" isn't in the West. In our early culture, (and in our present culture), if you ask someone where Heaven and God is, they'll point up.

So perhaps Uritihiru is being put in the West because there's a really high spot where they could make a city.

EDIT- And I'm working on my Spren theory. It will be here soon. And it's not so much a Spren thoery, as a spren stance of what I believe, and why I back it up.

EDIT 2- Another random idea- Maybe "where Honor lies" isn't where Honor lays- maybe it's where Honor doesn't tell the truth. Or where the Honorable thing to do is to not tell the truth.

I like the last part, seriously makes me think of Shinovar, and puts another spin on the Truthless.

[Dros]

zas678, on 06 February 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

You know, maybe "where Honor lies" isn't in the West. In our early culture, (and in our present culture), if you ask someone where Heaven and God is, they'll point up.

So perhaps Uritihiru is being put in the West because there's a really high spot where they could make a city.

EDIT- And I'm working on my Spren theory. It will be here soon. And it's not so much a Spren thoery, as a spren stance of what I believe, and why I back it up.

EDIT 2- Another random idea- Maybe "where Honor lies" isn't where Honor lays- maybe it's where Honor doesn't tell the truth. Or where the Honorable thing to do is to not tell the truth.

I like the last part, seriously makes me think of Shinovar, and puts another spin on the Truthless.

I like that too, it's a clever twist.

[frozndevl]

I don't have the ebook and my hardcover is at home, but knowing BS to be very careful in how he does things, does he capitazize the H in "honorspren"? And does he capitalize the first letter when describing a generic "firespren"? If he does capitalize the H, then I'm leaning towards Honorspren being a proper name for a group of different spren. So Syl may be a windspren, who through interaction with Kaladin gains her sentience through the exchange and then evolves into an HonorSpren. If this happens for other spren, this could be an example of concurrent evolution, just on a very immediate basis, and although she is now an HonorSpren, she retains the base of what she was, a windspren.

Also, in early Christian culture, God was in the East, not up, if I remember correctly. Subsequently, maps were made to have East at the top instead of North.

Also, the twist on the "where honor lies" bit relating to the Truthless is quite clever. I hope that turns into something.

[CrazyRioter]

no he doesn't capitalise "honorspren" or any other kind of spren.

[Eri]

EDIT 2- Another random idea- Maybe "where Honor lies" isn't where Honor lays- maybe it's where Honor doesn't tell the truth. Or where the Honorable thing to do is to not tell the truth.

It would be cool, but I'm afraid the actual quote doesn't involve liyng, it's something like ‘in a place closest (closer?) to honor’. I'm not 100% sure if I remebmer correctly, but pretty sure, say, 90%.

Edit: Check the first post. It is, indeed, ‘nearest to honor’. Or were you speaking about some other quote?

Edited February 12, 2012 by Eri

[Zas678]

Nope, I was misremembering. That's what I get for not looking at the quote! I'll make a note on my post.

[jmkholin]

I always though Urithiru was kind of a floating city. A little bit like Blizzard's Dalaran. And since the Shattered Plains were mentioned above, I might as well add this to my theory: when Kaladin was riding the Highstorm, he briefly mentions that the Plains look like something fell in their center and shattered them. I believe there are several times in the book where characters think about the Plains and how it almost feels like there is a method to their madness, a design to the cracks. Like a huge piece of glass that got hit by something enormous. Like a floating city.

Yes, I agree. Perhaps the shattered plains are one of the cities created by the almighty with a pattern that can be seen through the sand.

[parvoneh]

Hi all. Long time lurker and finally registered. I have been wondering about Urithiru for some time and noticed the (apparent) paradox that you could both walk and not walk to Urithiru. While not discounting the plausibility of the ideas in this thread, nobody has mentioned yet whether the city might be on an island. This would be inaccessible by foot until a bridge (or Oathgate) was constructed, solving that tea/no tea impasse. Anyway, forgive me if that's been discredited already but it hadn't come up yet.

[Thoro]

Hi all. Long time lurker and finally registered. I have been wondering about Urithiru for some time and noticed the (apparent) paradox that you could both walk and not walk to Urithiru. While not discounting the plausibility of the ideas in this thread, nobody has mentioned yet whether the city might be on an island. This would be inaccessible by foot until a bridge (or Oathgate) was constructed, solving that tea/no tea impasse. Anyway, forgive me if that's been discredited already but it hadn't come up yet.

I rather think this (walk/not walk) refers to the mentioned Dalaran-like city placement, which would mean that one could not reach Urithiru by foot unless one had specific magic abilities (e.g. Windrunner) that would erase some limitations "normal" humans face.

[kari-no-sugata]

Hmm, I just realised something about this quote:

“Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor.”

The key bit here is "west".

Are the terms east and west used at all in modern Roshar? If you look at maps from modern era they have: north, south, stormward (ie east) and leeward (ie west)

Is this possibly an indication that the Roshar has not always had highstorms? Can someone with an ebook version look for east/west?

Anyway... another idea I had is that this possible instant traveling hub based in Urithiru could be based on "pairing fabrials" - using a similar theory to spanreeds. I think this system would either require activation by humans (ie would be limited by availability of rare talents) or would be some permanent system based on gems (ie would be limited by availability of suitable gems) - those seem to be the only types of magic in the world. (Ok, there may have been other types of magic then too, but it would be a bit strange for people to lose a whole magic system) Given limited resources, either of these systems would more naturally lead to a hub based design - though I'm assuming a gem based system would require large and rare gems.

The Ars Arcanum suggests that there's limits to how far spanreed gems can be separated and still function - so maybe there would be distance limits to this traveling hub too. In which case, maybe the best location would be the center of the continent. The quote above talks about the best location being to the west... but it doesn't necessarily mean the far west - it may just mean to the west of Alethela, though this interpretation is a bit of a stretch perhaps.

[Thoro]

I think the term "it was obvious that it could not be" has some significance as well. To me it hints at geographical or mechanical limitations that prevents Urithiru from being built in certain regions leading to the assumption that Urithiru has some physical or magical properties that are only possible at specific locations. I can´t elaborate the thought any further at the moment, however I think the direct connection of Urithiru and Honor is highly relevant to the city (and its inhabitants).

[Djando Je]

So Urithiru was built close to the Origin right?

If that is the case then Urithiru cannot be in Shinover.

Interludes, Page 442

"It has formed a face, looking eastward. Directly toward the Origin."

(sometimes the quote box doesn't work and it really pisses me off.)

Anyhow, this segment takes place in Kasitor, and as you can see and as you can see if you look it up on a map (it is one the west coast of Iri), Shinover is directly south-south-west. Directly East is the bulk of Iri and Rira, than the Reshi Sea.

So I agree with Parvoneh. Urithiru is on an island.

Also here is your mention of east Kari-no.

[Windrunner]

From everything I have read, there is no indication that Urithiru is built at the Origin. As a matter of fact the Origin is said to be off the east coast of Roshar, but Urithiru is supposedly built in the west of Roshar.

[Djando Je]

oh well then forget what I said

[callumke]

I have been thinking for a while, but is it possible that Urithiru is in the horneater peaks? Those mountains were on the west boarder of Alethela. It would be high up, (close to Honor). But one of the things that makes me think this the most is Rock.

Rock is more knowledgeable about surgebinding and spren than he lets on. He can see Syl, an honorspren, without her having to make it so. He also knows about Kaladin's powers.

In chapter 73, the last camp-fire bridge four have, Rock says Kaladin's abilities are "of the holetental. For him only." When Teft questions this, Rock replies "You don't know for certain I don't know for certain". My guess is that the horneaters are descendants of those who lived in Urithiru and worked with the Radiants. They could see spren, and so were valuable servants.

What do you guys think?

[kari-no-sugata]

I have been thinking for a while, but is it possible that Urithiru is in the horneater peaks? Those mountains were on the west boarder of Alethela. It would be high up, (close to Honor). But one of the things that makes me think this the most is Rock.

Rock is more knowledgeable about surgebinding and spren than he lets on. He can see Syl, an honorspren, without her having to make it so. He also knows about Kaladin's powers.

In chapter 73, the last camp-fire bridge four have, Rock says Kaladin's abilities are "of the holetental. For him only." When Teft questions this, Rock replies "You don't know for certain I don't know for certain". My guess is that the horneaters are descendants of those who lived in Urithiru and worked with the Radiants. They could see spren, and so were valuable servants.

What do you guys think?

I think Rock is totally trolling us!

(just kidding!)

It's a bit surprising that even when it becomes "public" (amongst bridge 4 at least) about Kaladin's powers that Rock doesn't seem to volunteer any extra info. But, given that no Horneaters have beaten any shardbearers I'm guessing that maybe what he knows isn't that huge...

[.S.A.M.K.M]

We can all agree that the city of the radiants was linked to other via oath gates. Moost likely the city was linked to every dawn city, which means every capital of the silver kingdoms. Do we know if any of the dawn cities were destroyed or abanddoned? If still around, likely to still be key cities for the lands around them. Imagine if the gates were repaire, and the alethi could march armies through. The assasin in white has been destabilising the whole of roshar, enough that if an army suddernly appears in the capital, could be enough to take power, or at least set up a power that ensures they follow their lead.

[Riddlesinthedark]

From everything I have read, there is no indication that Urithiru is built at the Origin. As a matter of fact the Origin is said to be off the east coast of Roshar, but Urithiru is supposedly built in the west of Roshar.

Does that make Hoid's story even more interesting?

[Meandering Monotreme]

Slightly different question about Urithiru: The word "Urithiru" is perfectly symmetrical. While symmetry is a big thing in Vorinism, I had thought that it really wasn't that important before Vorinism (The Heralds had not very symmetrical names, but then Vorinism changed them to make them more symmetrical, etc.) So why does all evidence say that Urithiru was a city from before Vorinism?

Edited August 4, 2012 by Tangletalon

[Aeshdan]

Slightly different question about Urithiru: The word "Urithiru" is perfectly symmetrical. While symmetry is a big thing in Vorinism, I had thought that it really wasn't that important before Vorinism (The Heralds had not very symmetrical names, but then Vorinism changed them to make them more symmetrical, etc.) So why does all evidence say that Urithiru was a city from before Vorinism?

Three explanations:

1. Coincidence. It just happens that Urithiru is symmetrical.

2. Symmetry is sacred by the time the KR are founded, but after Proving Day (the Herald's original names presumably dated from when they were mortal).

3. Uritihiru wasn't the original name of the city, it was renamed at some point in the same way as the Heralds.

[happyman]

Continuing on after ReaderAt2046:

4. Symmetry was holy when Uritihiru was built, but at that time the Heralds weren't considered as holy as later generations decided they were.

5. Symmetry was holy, but the names of the Heralds predated all of this. Given that the Heralds showed up from time to time. any drift in their names was suppressed until the Oathpact was broken.

[Aeshdan]

Continuing on after ReaderAt2046:

4. Symmetry was holy when Uritihiru was built, but at that time the Heralds weren't considered as holy as later generations decided they were.

5. Symmetry was holy, but the names of the Heralds predated all of this. Given that the Heralds showed up from time to time. any drift in their names was suppressed until the Oathpact was broken.

I think your 5 and my 2 are the same. 4 is interesting, though!