The Bond is The Key

[18th Shard]

Sorry, I don't have the time to edit my scatterbrained notes now. I will in a day or two. Try and make sense of this; like Taravangian,  i had my moment of brilliance and scambled to write it in any form.

 

There is a quote in WoR that Pattern holds less Stromlight (or uses it faster). Spren hold stormlight less efficiently because they are not the Surgebinders.

Same with honourblades.

 

Stormlight retention is a function of the strength of the bond to a piece of honor. Honor blades are extremely large pieces of honor. Spren mimicked this and are much smaller pieces of honor.

 

Basic bond — bond formed when spren is attracted, before first ideal. Analogous to being attracted to some one - like them but have no personal bonds it.

Stormlight retention and surgebinding abilities strengthen as ideals bring the bonded human closet to the ideas and attributes the spren represents. Ex. Kaladins second ideal is protecting those who cannot protect themselves, bringing him closer to the divine attributes leading and protecting. The third ideal is even closer to Syl's philosophy, that the law doesn't matter, but doing what is right does. 

 

Honor blades act the same way - being large chunks of Honor, or manifestations of the part of Honor in the Heralds. "Bonding" with one as Szeth did is like the basic bond between a spren and a Surgebinder - it allows very small abilities and the ability, in this case, to summon the Honorblade and dismiss it.  However, there is not a true bond, and there cannot be unless the Herald shattered his/her oaths beyond the point they already have. A Honorblade is intrinsically a part of the Herald, so they would have to abandon a lot more than just the blade to make their bond with the blade die. The Honorblades are also much higher in degrees of power than the "spren blades" and so grant surgebinding even when Szeth or the wielder had little to no bond to it ( as a piece of Honor). The stormlight use was how much the blade could hold on its own. However, a Herald is much more closely bonded to his/her blade and could wield it to much much greater effect than any other, and would probably make a 5th Ideal Surgebinder look weak. The stormlight efficiency would make them "glow like the sun"

 

Edit: SO a lot of people were wondering why Honorblades seem weak, and how the Nahel bond works. Here is my theory. Bonus upvotes to anyone who can support it textually.

 

Double Edit: If you have questions about what I mean, just post them.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Xanas-the 18th Shard

[soulcastJam]

I like this, but it does seem like the heralds have already shattered their "true bonds".  And that begs the question, if you become more like the ideal associated with the herald whose blade you hold, does your bond increase with that honorblade?  And if so, would Szeth have been far more powerful if he had held the sword of the Skybreaker herald?

Edited August 19, 2014 by soulcastJam

[18th Shard]

I like this, but it does seem like the heralds have already shattered their "true bonds". 

I believe there is a WOB floating around (to be inserted below) where he says the Oathpact is not as broken as they might think it is.

 

 

  And that begs the question, if you become more like the ideal associated with the radiant whose blade you hold, does your bond increase with that honorblade?  And if so, would Szeth have been far more powerful if he had held the sword of the Skybreaker herald?

 I think you mean Heralds. And no, because Szeth was not the Honourblade's bondee. He had that initial bond, but he could not progress further due to the existing bond to the Jezrien. That's my opinion, not part of the theory, so your third question depends on your stance on the second question. I would say no, but you can think otherwise.

Edit: Here's the quote:

 

Q:  So, by the nine leaving, did that actually break the Oathpact for them? Did it change the cycle of Desolations?

A:  They have not completely broken the Oathpact, despite what they may think.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Xanas-the 18th Shard

[jefftucker0525]

But I doubt that the Oathpact is what grants Heralds their powers at all. regardless of whether or not it was actually shattered (I know its not but im just saying) they will still maintain their powers because of the Investiture they innately have, though they may need their Honorblades to Surgebind, they still have other powers, we just don't know what they are yet. Also, for all we know, they could have Surgebinding abilities even without their Honorblades. We think Nalen took back his blade and that is why he can Surgebind (refer back to Lifts chapter she notes that "Darkness" also has awesomeness) but it is possible that he could on his own, and the Honorblade can act as a conduit to more efficiently channel Stormlight maybe?

 

just a guess, but who knows?

[18th Shard]

I am pretty sure the Heralds were originally human who became Herald's by the Oathpact, and they existed before the first Surgebinders, as spren imitated this bond.

 

Edit:

 

But I doubt that the Oathpact is what grants Heralds their powers at all. regardless of whether or not it was actually shattered (I know its not but im just saying) they will still maintain their powers because of the Investiture they innately have, though they may need their Honorblades to Surgebind, they still have other powers, we just don't know what they are yet. Also, for all we know, they could have Surgebinding abilities even without their Honorblades. We think Nalen took back his blade and that is why he can Surgebind (refer back to Lifts chapter she notes that "Darkness" also has awesomeness) but it is possible that he could on his own, and the Honorblade can act as a conduit to more efficiently channel Stormlight maybe?

 

just a guess, but who knows?

I believe they can Surgebind on their own, like Kaladin without Syl summoned. Their innate Investiture is the piece of Honor that is sometimes in the form of a sword

Edited August 19, 2014 by Xanas-the 18th Shard

[Vaspin]

If the question is why are people with Nahel bonds better at Stormlight retention, then you are correct it is about the bond. But it is not solely the spren bond, I think, the Heralds probably are able to use Stormlight as efficiently as the Radiants. We have to remember any evidence towards the manner in which Honorblades work will be flawed as the Blades are being used by lesser people

[Moogle]

I don't think Heralds could use their Honorblades very efficiently. Syl specifically notes this:

Syl sat down, wrapping her arms around her knees. “I don’t know. Maybe. But no other honorspren are doing what I do. I am the only one who disobeyed. But his Shardblade . . .”

“What of it?” Kaladin asked. “It was different. Very different.”

“It looked ordinary to me. Well, as ordinary as a Shardblade can.”

“It was different,” she repeated. “I feel I should know why. Something about the amount of Light he was consuming . . .”

...

She stopped just before the sword. “I think this is one of the Honorblades, the swords of the Heralds.” Kaladin grunted. He’d heard of those.

“Any man who holds this weapon will become a Windrunner,” Syl explained, looking back at Kaladin. “The Honorblades are what we are based on, Kaladin. Honor gave these to men, and those men gained powers from them. Spren figured out what He’d done, and we imitated it. We’re bits of His power, after all, like this sword. Be careful with it. It is a treasure.”

“So the assassin wasn’t a Radiant.”

“No. But Kaladin, you have to understand. With this sword, someone can do what you can, but without the . . . checks a spren requires.” She touched it, then shivered visibly, her form blurring for a second. “This sword gave the assassin power to use Lashings, but it also fed upon his Stormlight. A person who uses this will need far , far more Light than you will. Dangerous levels of it.”

 

She specifically notes the Honorblade feeds on Stormlight. Indeed, the fact that Szeth was less efficient was the clue that tipped her off to it being an Honorblade. Spren don't feed on Stormlight like that, so naturally Radiants will be more efficient.

 

I'm sure the Honorblades do something with the Stormlight they feed on. They're probably just as powerful as Nightblood in that regard. Kalak remarks that they're weapons of power beyond even Shardblades. We just haven't seen anyone use that ability yet.

 

I doubt that the Heralds have any special ability to use the Honorblades, except insofar as they know all the secrets of their use and other people don't (yet).

Edited August 19, 2014 by Moogle

[Vaspin]

I think you're missing out on the theme here. It's about bonds. Spren bond with humans to acheive something greater assumingly. The honorblades are bonded to the Heralds. Syl's comments are from her knowledge alone and even that is fragmented. She knows they belong to the Heralds, but nothing pass that. Just like non-Radiant Rosharans can not use dead-spren Blades to their full potential the same should be true for anyone who uses an honorblade. 

 

Also I think it's safe to assume the Heralds aren't "normal" people.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Vaspin

[hoser]

There is WoB that the Oathpact is between the Heralds and Honor. But the powers of the Heralds (more the five female Heralds in the bottom of the Surgebinding chart) are also of Cultivation. Wyndle speaks of his mother (presumed Cultivation) and the Nightwatcher as more influential. Brandon has also said that the spren we saw in tWoK (mainly referring to Syl and Pattern, I think) are of H&C or both. So there must be more specialness to the Heralds than the Oathpact.

MaybeTaln speaks of a "Gift." There are references in tWoK to a Proving Day. I think the Heralds were chosen and given certain abilities by H or C or both before the Oathpact. At the Oathpact, they swore something with H and were given the swords (I think the swords were part of the Oathpact because they decided they had to leave them when they walked away).

Edited August 19, 2014 by hoser

[Moogle]

I think you're missing out on the theme here. It's about bonds. Spren bond with humans to acheive something greater assumingly. The honorblades are bonded to the Heralds. Syl's comments are from her knowledge alone and even that is fragmented. She knows they belong to the Heralds, but nothing pass that. Just like non-Radiant Rosharans can not use dead-spren Blades to their full potential the same should be true for anyone who uses an honorblade. 

 

Also I think it's safe to assume the Heralds aren't "normal" people.

 

I doubt the Honorblades are bonded to the Heralds anymore. Syl's bond to Kaladin breaks if she goes more than a mile or two from him, and the Honorblades have traveled from one end of the continent to the next. Honor gave the Honorblades to the Heralds, it's not like the Heralds gave up parts of their souls to make them. I'm willing to give Syl the benefit of the doubt here and accept that when she says the Honorblades feed on Stormlight, that they do in fact feed on Stormlight. This is exactly like how Nightblood operates, so I would not find it surprising that the Heralds were less efficient with Stormlight due to their weapons constantly draining their Stormlight.

 

And this isn't surprising. The Heralds are heralds, not knights. Not warriors. Not champions. The purpose of a herald is to bring news or convey a message, not fight. And this is what the Heralds did - they brought news of the Desolation to mankind, and taught them how to forge bronze and the like. I see nothing wrong with the Knights Radiant being more efficient - they're knights, they are supposed to be better at combat.

 

It's true that non-Radiants can't use Shardblades to gain Surgebinding, but we don't know why. Kaladin couldn't summon Syl before the Third Ideal bound her tightly enough to him that he could summon her into the Physical and he didn't gain blue eyes until he said that Ideal. And yet, every Shardbearer can summon forth their Blades and their eye color has changed. You'd think that would signify a stronger bond. I think this might mean that Shardblades don't grant Surgebinding because they are dead/lost their consciousness.

 

As to the Heralds, they're probably not normal people in the sense that they're like Returned, but that doesn't mean magic won't work on them. I expect they can still be Soothed (though they may be more resistant), I expect Shardblades to still kill them, and I expect Honorblades to work the same on them as they do with regular humans.

[Vaspin]

I think you're being too literal about honorblades "feeding" off of Stormlight. Besides that, the honorblades are bonded to the Heralds. They are what signify the Oathpact. That's what part of the prelude was about, showing us there is a connection between the Heralds and the honorblades. Brandon has said it himself, people can use/bond the honorblades, but it doesn't take away the original bond between the Heralds. They are the original Blades, comparing them to Shardblades is backwards. Shardblades are similar but as for the capabilities and limits of the two I would have to believe those differences are distinct if not massive.

 

 

 

And this isn't surprising. The Heralds are heralds, not knights. Not warriors. Not champions. The purpose of a herald is to bring news or convey a message, not fight. And this is what the Heralds did - they brought news of the Desolation to mankind, and taught them how to forge bronze and the like. I see nothing wrong with the Knights Radiant being more efficient - they're knights, they are supposed to be better at combat.

 

.....they bring news, but not war? Again the prelude states they were fighting in the Desolations not judging or watching from afar. I'm sure they gained their names because of the timing of their arrival and how it coincided with the Desolations. But everything starts with them, Shardblades, the Knights, surgebinding. The spren wanted to mimic them.

 

 

 

It's true that non-Radiants can't use Shardblades to gain Surgebinding, but we don't know why. Kaladin couldn't summon Syl before the Third Ideal bound her tightly enough to him that he could summon her into the Physical and he didn't gain blue eyes until he said that Ideal. And yet, every Shardbearer can summon forth their Blades and their eye color has changed. You'd think that would signify a stronger bond. I think this might mean that Shardblades don't grant Surgebinding because they are dead/lost their consciousness.

 

We also absolutely know why honorblades and spren give a person the capacity to surgebind. Honorblades are pieces of Honor and so are spren. Honor is the one responsible for surges. The two are capable of tapping into the magic system he established but without a bond nothing will happen. I'm sure you meant the spren when you referred to Shardblades allowing people to surgebind. Also it wasn't him saying the Third Ideal that gave him blue eyes, it had already been mentioned before that:

 

Words of Radiance Ch. 2

 

"We're still darkeyes, Moash."

"Not you," Skar said from his other side. "I saw your eyes during the-"

"Stop!" Kaladin said. 

 

You are focusing on the wrong aspects of this. All the things you mentioned are the physical manifestations of the bond. While helpful in establishing there is a bond it is seemingly inconsequential to understanding the nature of the bond.

[jefftucker0525]

I could definitely see the Honorblades as being more effective for Heralds though still. think of it like shoes. Anyone can wear a shoe, regardless of size ( a dead Shardblade) a better fit is one that is your size (a Shardblade with a live Spren) but the best fit would be a shoe specifically made and molded for your foot (the Honorblades for the Heralds) it just makes sense that since the Honorblades were made for the Heralds that they can make them function better and more efficiently and can use them to their full potential.

 

Also the Heralds are so much more than mere knights, yes they announce a Desolation and help humanity in any way they can to survive it, but they are also the foremost fighters of it. Their knowledge, experience, and skill are the very backbone of the entire defense against the voidbringers.

[Moogle]

I think you're being too literal about honorblades "feeding" off of Stormlight.

 

I disagree. Nightblood is an example of a sword which consumes Investiture. By WoB, Nightblood is a magnitude more powerful than a Shardblade, and Kalak also remarks that Honorblades are weapons of power exceeding Shardblades. I don't think Syl was being metaphorical.

 

Indeed, the fact that Szeth was consuming more Stormlight (and thus inefficient compared to Kaladin) was the clue that tipped Syl off to his Blade being an Honorblade. This suggests the Heralds being inefficient was well-known to her. She wouldn't have ever interacted with a non-Herald with an Honorblade before Szeth. 

 

So, I think the literal interpretation is heavily implied: Honorblades feed on Stormlight (presumably to power some special abilities we don't know about yet).

 

That's what part of the prelude was about, showing us there is a connection between the Heralds and the honorblades. Brandon has said it himself, people can use/bond the honorblades, but it doesn't take away the original bond between the Heralds. They are the original Blades, comparing them to Shardblades is backwards. Shardblades are similar but as for the capabilities and limits of the two I would have to believe those differences are distinct if not massive.

 

The prelude to WoK showed the Heralds giving up their Blades, presumably revoking their bonds to them. I don't know of any WoBs saying that the original bonds between the Heralds and Honorblade remain.

 

As to the comparison between the two: Honorblades act pretty much exactly like Shardblades. There are differences, but they are not "massive" in my opinion.

 

Honorblades:

• Temporarily change your eye color when summoned, though not when just holding Stormlight
• Grant Surgebinding if alive
• Cut things really well
• Do not turn to mist and disappear when dropped unless willed to otherwise
• "Feed" on Stormlight and probably have unknown powers we have yet to see
• Change their shape with time (Jezrien's Blade was well-ornamented, but by the time Szeth got it it was plain)

 

Shardblades (ie. spren):

• SA3 spoilers:
  Temporarily change your eye color when you summon the Shardblade or hold Stormlight if bonded to a living spren (this may become permanent with more Ideals, but it ain't for Kaladin yet)

• Permanently change your eye color if bonded to a dead spren
• Grant Surgebinding
• Cut things really well
• Turn to mist when dropped unless willed to otherwise
• Change shape at will

I believe most of the same limits will apply to Honorblades that apply to Shardblades. We know that you cannot bond to an already-bonded Shardblade from Adolin's duels, so if the Heralds were still bonded to their Honorblades I don't think Szeth or anyone else could bond them.

 

.....they bring news, but not war? Again the prelude states they were fighting in the Desolations not judging or watching from afar. I'm sure they gained their names because of the timing of their arrival and how it coincided with the Desolations. But everything starts with them, Shardblades, the Knights, surgebinding. The spren wanted to mimic them.

 

They fought, but we don't know how effective they were. They apparently died during Desolations, so they certainly weren't invincible. Why would they bother teaching men how to forge bronze and teach them leadership and teach them medicine and teach them how to fight if the Heralds themselves were single-handedly winning each Desolation? Honor named them his heralds, not his champions. I don't think their main purpose was to fight, though obviously they did that too.

 

I will grant that just saying "they were named Heralds!" is a bad argument though. Sorry about that.

 

WoR:

The Almighty turned to him. “I was surprised when these orders arrived. I did not teach my Heralds this. It was the spren— wishing to imitate what I had given men —who made it possible."

 

We also absolutely know why honorblades and spren give a person the capacity to surgebind. Honorblades are pieces of Honor and so are spren. Honor is the one responsible for surges. The two are capable of tapping into the magic system he established but without a bond nothing will happen. I'm sure you meant the spren when you referred to Shardblades allowing people to surgebind. Also it wasn't him saying the Third Ideal that gave him blue eyes, it had already been mentioned before that:

 

He only had blue eyes while holding Stormlight before. It wasn't permanent. The more Ideals Kaladin speaks, the longer-lasting his eye color changes are. At first, they didn't change despite holding Stormlight. Then, after the Second Ideal was spoken, his eyes changed color when he was holding Stormlight (as you noted). SA3 spoilers:

Then, after the Third Ideal was spoken, his eyes became blue for hours after he touched Sylblade or held Stormlight. After the Fifth Ideal, I think the changes will be permanent.

 

Because bonding a dead Shardblade gives you permanently brightened eyes, I suspect that the bond between a dead Shardblade and its owner is as strong as one of a Radiant who's sworn all the Ideals.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Moogle

[Horatio Spifflewicket]

...Because bonding a dead Shardblade gives you permanently brightened eyes, I suspect that the bond between a dead Shardblade and its owner is as strong as one of a Radiant who's sworn all the Ideals.

 

Could this be because the Knights who created all the dead shardblades during the Recreance were all of the highest level (I'm assuming here, as they had plate, etc.) and so the artificial bond with the dead blade (gem powered) is attempting to restore the bond between the blade and the original holder?

 

Which gets me thinking.  Prior to the Recreance was eye color still used to determine who the leaders were?  Or is that a post recreance creation, caused by the aftermath of whoever had the blades having enough might to rule (and then filtering it and warping it through thousands of years and many generations of precedent and tradition).

[Moogle]

Could this be because the Knights who created all the dead shardblades during the Recreance were all of the highest level (I'm assuming here, as they had plate, etc.) and so the artificial bond with the dead blade (gem powered) is attempting to restore the bond between the blade and the original holder?

 

I suspect the bond is super-strong with dead Shardblades because it's basically forced via a Hemalurgic-like mechanism with the gem. It's not a natural bond, so it can be as strong as it wants.

 

It could also be because of the Ideals like you're saying, though. Maybe it's like, the stronger the bond between spren and man, the bigger the hole left in the spren when the Knight breaks off the bond.

 

(It's also possible I'm wrong and that the bond between a dead Shardblade and a modern owner isn't super strong. I was just speculating, though it was informed evidence-based speculation which is as good as I can do.)

 

Which gets me thinking.  Prior to the Recreance was eye color still used to determine who the leaders were?  Or is that a post recreance creation, caused by the aftermath of whoever had the blades having enough might to rule (and then filtering it and warping it through thousands of years and many generations of precedent and tradition).

 

Prior to the Recreance, eye color did not seem to be used to determine leaders. Dalinar remarks on this on the very night of the Recreance - a darkeyes is in charge.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Moogle

[Vaspin]

I went through and found every mention, I think, of there still being a bond between the Heralds and the honorblades

 

 

Q:  Is there any of the Oathpact still functioning because of Taln's continued participation.
A:  Yes, indeed.

Q:  So, by the nine leaving, did that actually break the Oathpact for them? Did it change the cycle of Desolations?

A:  They have not completely broken the Oathpact, despite what they may think.

 

This was in response to my question; "Have any of the Heralds left the Greater Roshar system in the last 4500 years?"

 

"No, they are bound to it."

 

 

Q:  You mentioned that human can’t bond Honorblades, but Nalan tells Szeth that his bond with his Honorblade has been broken. Can you clear this up?
A:  Humans CAN bond Honorblades. There's a crucial difference between Honorblades and Shardblades. When you drop an Honorblade, it does not disappear, even if it has been bonded. A Shardblade will disappear when dropped.

 

As you can see the Oathpact remains and the Heralds retain their bonds to the Honorblades irregardless to the actions they took in the prelude. There is also a mention of Shardblades and Honorblades having a distinct difference. He only gives one example to show the difference, I don't think he's trying to reveal much about the Honorblades now. He only wants us to be aware we can't think of them as like Shardblades. here's another references to this idea:

 

 

 

Q:  Based on what we know currently about the ten heartbeats, why does Szeth require ten heartbeats to bring forth his Honorblade?
A:  Perception is a very important part of how these things all work, and remember, the Honorblades work differently from everything else. Everything was based upon them. Why don't you read and find out what's going on there, but remember, the characters' perception is very important.

 

This also applies to Syl. Just because she made a comment about how the Honorblades work does not mean she knows intimate details about them. We thought ten heartbeats was a firm rule but that only applies to dead-spren Blades. The characters on Roshar are not fully aware of the manner in which Investiture manifests itself. They think they do, but they are so far removed from the origin from which all of this came from. But as I said, the Honorblades are not comparable to Shardblades. The function and scope behind them is what will be a factor on the plot of the story. 

 

The Honorblades, the Oathpact, and the Heralds were, and still are, connected. It keeps them bound to the Rosharan  system and is most likely the reason behind their immortality. In the prelude Kalak talk about dieing as though he had experienced it multiple times. No Shardblade can even come close to this.

 

Nightblood is a "Shardblade" yes but how it functions in comparison is different. Nightblood feeds both off of the wielder and external Investiture. It was also not made by a Shard but people from a Shardworld, whereas Honorblades come directly from Honor himself. Nightblood could be thought of as an unintentional creation, conversely, the Honorblades have a defined purpose and function and won't kill the wielder. So I will concede Syl is correct in her description of how Honorblades work for anyone not a Herald because those Blades were made for them.

 

The Heralds fought in the Desolations. They said it. They aren't Honorbooks, they are Honorblades. Yes, they taught men to fight and protect themselves, but why be given weapons if not to be used?  As to your quote about the arrival of the Knights, that was outside of the Heralds you are correct. But the spren saw the Heralds and wanted to mimic them. The entire existence of the Radiants is built on the Heralds and their actions.

 

And for your argument on dead-spren Blades being comparable to live-spren Blades....take a second and think about that. Anyone can use one of the dead-spren Blades, it matters not your beliefs or your intent. Only one person can use a live-spren Blade. And even though anyone can use an Honorblade like a dead-spren Blade, they wee meant for the Heralds so it is only being used in its basic form.

 

You seem to equate eye color change as being an important factor in the nature of these bonds we're discussing. I would say it isn't. But this probably the one area in which I don't have anything to dissuade you of this notion except to compare each of the seperate bonds and see how they differ in function. If you can't see it form that, then there's nothing else I can say

[18th Shard]

I think you're missing out on the theme here. It's about bonds. Spren bond with humans to acheive something greater assumingly. The honorblades are bonded to the Heralds. Syl's comments are from her knowledge alone and even that is fragmented. She knows they belong to the Heralds, but nothing pass that. Just like non-Radiant Rosharans can not use dead-spren Blades to their full potential the same should be true for anyone who uses an honorblade. 

 

Also I think it's safe to assume the Heralds aren't "normal" people.

Thank You! Moogle, I see your points, and I would explain my thoughts but Vaspin has done marvelously here. Again, you can agree or not, this is just a theory. Moogle, Vaspin, upvotes for excellent arguements and quote findings!

 

I would like to reiterate the key point of my theory,so key I titled my theory after it:

 

 

THE BOND IS THE KEY!

 

That is not virtual screaming, just lots of fun emphasis.

[BlackYeti]

As you can see the Oathpact remains and the Heralds retain their bonds to the Honorblades irregardless to the actions they took in the prelude. There is also a mention of Shardblades and Honorblades having a distinct difference. He only gives one example to show the difference, I don't think he's trying to reveal much about the Honorblades now. He only wants us to be aware we can't think of them as like Shardblades.

 

 

Nightblood is a "Shardblade" yes but how it functions in comparison is different. Nightblood feeds both off of the wielder and external Investiture. It was also not made by a Shard but people from a Shardworld, whereas Honorblades come directly from Honor himself. Nightblood could be thought of as an unintentional creation, conversely, the Honorblades have a defined purpose and function and won't kill the wielder. So I will concede Syl is correct in her description of how Honorblades work for anyone not a Herald because those Blades were made for them.

 

What is your evidence that the Oathpact is equivalent to the bond between the the Heralds and the Honourblades? I don't see any implication of this in your quotes or elsewhere. My assumption so far has been that the Honourblade bonds were broken whilst the Oathpact was not.

 

Also with regards to Nightblood: what do you mean that it feeds off of external Investiture? I have only ever heard that it feeds off of the Investiture held by the person wielding it. I'm also not sure why you say that Nightblood's creation was unintentional. I was under the impression that Vasher was intentionally trying to create something like Nightblood, considering his connection with Roshar it's likely that it was inspired by the Shardblades there. If anything, I would have thought that it was the spren blades that were created unintentionally since Honour didn't foresee that.

[Moogle]

(sorry for the long post)

 

I went through and found every mention, I think, of there still being a bond between the Heralds and the honorblades

 

As you can see the Oathpact remains and the Heralds retain their bonds to the Honorblades irregardless to the actions they took in the prelude.

 

I see no mention of Honorblades made here. The Oathpact remains, sure, but the Oathpact is not the same as Honorblades. I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. Sorry.

 

There is also a mention of Shardblades and Honorblades having a distinct difference. He only gives one example to show the difference, I don't think he's trying to reveal much about the Honorblades now. He only wants us to be aware we can't think of them as like Shardblades.

 

Sure, there are differences, I can agree there. I made a list in my last post listing the differences, in fact, though I forgot the heartbeats one. Shardblades and Honorblades share a lot of the same traits and generally operate under the same or similar rules. I don't think the differences are that large, though there are definitely differences. I would say they are the same class of object. We may have to agree to disagree on this point.

 

This also applies to Syl. Just because she made a comment about how the Honorblades work does not mean she knows intimate details about them.

 

In order to become a Shardblade, the spren have to understand how the Honorblades work. They copied them. Syl says this:

“The Honorblades are what we are based on, Kaladin. Honor gave these to men, and those men gained powers from them. Spren figured out what He’d done , and we imitated it. We’re bits of His power, after all, like this sword. Be careful with it. It is a treasure.”

 

The fact that spren can become Shardblades is proof that they know how Honorblades work. It's sort of like how you can tell that humanity has a good idea on how electromagnetics work: we've made TVs that work from scratch.

 

The Honorblades, the Oathpact, and the Heralds were, and still are, connected. It keeps them bound to the Rosharan  system and is most likely the reason behind their immortality. In the prelude Kalak talk about dieing as though he had experienced it multiple times. No Shardblade can even come close to this.

 

Where are you getting the link between Honorblades and the Oathpact? I agree that the Oathpact is responsible for their immortality, sure, but I'm not seeing where the Honorblades come into this.

 

The Heralds fought in the Desolations. They said it. They aren't Honorbooks, they are Honorblades. Yes, they taught men to fight and protect themselves, but why be given weapons if not to be used?  As to your quote about the arrival of the Knights, that was outside of the Heralds you are correct. But the spren saw the Heralds and wanted to mimic them. The entire existence of the Radiants is built on the Heralds and their actions.

 

I'm okay with the idea that Honor gave the Heralds Honorblades to help them fight in the Desolations, I just don't think the primary purpose of the Heralds was to single-handedly fight off armies of Voidbringers. I think their primary purpose was to train and lead humanity. Another point we'll have to disagree on, I guess.

 

The Radiants were not built on top of the Heralds, the Radiants were formed by Ishar, according to "Taln":

“I will train your soldiers. We should have time. Ishar keeps talking about a way to keep information from being lost following Desolations. And you have discovered something unexpected. We will use that. Surgebinders to act as guardians . . . Knights . . .”

...

“One of Ishar’s Knights,” the madman whispered. His eyes narrowed. “I remember . . . He founded them ? Yes. Several Desolations ago. No longer just talk. It hasn’t been talk for thousands of years. But . . . When . . .”

 

Also, from Words of Radiance (in-world book):

But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.

 

Ishar formed the Radiants in order to reduce the civil war caused by Surgebinders (which Nohadon talks about) and to act as guardians. Each order certainly revered their patron Herald, but this does not mean that they have the exact same duties as the Heralds.

 

And for your argument on dead-spren Blades being comparable to live-spren Blades....take a second and think about that. Anyone can use one of the dead-spren Blades, it matters not your beliefs or your intent. Only one person can use a live-spren Blade. And even though anyone can use an Honorblade like a dead-spren Blade, they wee meant for the Heralds so it is only being used in its basic form.

 

Any person can use a live-spren Blade, it just takes some Hemalurgy. As to the Honorblades being 'meant' for the Heralds, I don't see any strong evidence that Honor specifically built the Honorblades to only be usable in their full power by Heralds. He made the Blades, and gave them to his Heralds, and that's all we know.

 

You seem to equate eye color change as being an important factor in the nature of these bonds we're discussing. I would say it isn't. But this probably the one area in which I don't have anything to dissuade you of this notion except to compare each of the seperate bonds and see how they differ in function. If you can't see it form that, then there's nothing else I can say

 

Eye color changing is a result of your spiritual DNA being changed, so it is of prime importance in my mind. But we can agree to disagree here.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Moogle

[Arondell]

Only one person can use a live-spren Blade

 

 

This is an imprecise statement.  Only one person can bond a spren blade.  At least until the Radiants death.  It can certainly be loaned out for brief periods of time.  Such as when Shallan loaned out Pattern to Kaladin in the Chasms.

[Arondell]

 

 

Any person can use a live-spren Blade, it just takes some Hemalurgy. As to the Honorblades being 'meant' for the Heralds, I don't see any strong evidence that Honor specifically built the Honorblades to only be usable in their full power by Heralds. He made the Blades, and gave them to his Heralds, and that's all we know.

 

Has there been any Words of Brandon on what the precise effect would be on the spren if hemalurgy were used on a surgebinder?  Killed? Captured and effectively slaved?

[18th Shard]

 

Honor blades act the same way - being large chunks of Honor, or manifestations of the part of Honor in the Heralds.

This is an assumption the whole theory is based off of. The Heralds making the Oathpact made them Heralds (ooo, could make a ketek from this)

 

This is an imprecise statement.  Only one person can bond a spren blade.  At least until the Radiants death.  It can certainly be loaned out for brief periods of time.  Such as when Shallan loaned out Pattern to Kaladin in the Chasms.

Emphasis Added. Bonding is the whole power source.

 

 

Hemalurgy is a hack. I mean natural bonds.

 

Edit: And the Heralds, or at least some of them were warriors. The Midnight Essence Dalinar fought was defeated only when Radiants came. What about before the spren copied the Heralds? There must have been some defenders of humanity.

 

 

Bonus upvotes to anyone who can support it textually.

This is still on. Moogle is in the lead.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Xanas-the 18th Shard

[jefftucker0525]

I think both moogle and vaspin both have some very good points. Something I noticed, yes you can steal a live Shardblade with hemalurgy, however without the Bond and the Oaths of the owner/knight im pretty sure it would immediately kill the Spren or would kill the Spren soon there after.

[18th Shard]

Or at least if you broke an Oath.

[Vaspin]

What is your evidence that the Oathpact is equivalent to the bond between the the Heralds and the Honourblades? I don't see any implication of this in your quotes or elsewhere. My assumption so far has been that the Honourblade bonds were broken whilst the Oathpact was not.

 

Also with regards to Nightblood: what do you mean that it feeds off of external Investiture? I have only ever heard that it feeds off of the Investiture held by the person wielding it. I'm also not sure why you say that Nightblood's creation was unintentional. I was under the impression that Vasher was intentionally trying to create something like Nightblood, considering his connection with Roshar it's likely that it was inspired by the Shardblades there. If anything, I would have thought that it was the spren blades that were created unintentionally since Honour didn't foresee that.

 

Not going to do another long post as all my evidence has already been stated. But the reason why the Heralds, Honorblades, and the Oathpact are all connected is based on two reasons. First is what Brandon says, one of his answers from a signing, also above, says that the Honorblades are the basis for everything. Bonds, surges, Ideals, all of it. We don't know how or why but it is what he says.

 

Second, there is the prelude. I never see people talk about it, but it holds much information concerning the story. One of the main themes of it is the Honorblades. Right there, in the prelude they suppose the Oathpact would end if they leave the Blades. We know they were given the Blades from Honor himself, a piece of himself. That says there is a connection between the Honorblades, the Heralds, and the Oathpact. At the end of the book it's revealed the Desolation is still coming despite their actions. And also Brandon says the Oathpact isn't shattered. If there was a connection between the 3 before it was "shattered" then that same connection would still be there after it was proven their efforts had failed. And lets not forget one of the Heralds went back for his Blade, why would he do so if the bond was broken? And if there's no connection between the Honorblades and the Oathpact, what would be the point of leaving them? 

 

I don't understand the people who said there was no implication from the quotes or what I stated. They are bound to the Greater Rosharan System for the last 4500 years, everything is based off of the Honorblades, and the Oathpact is not shattered. He even says they work differently than everything else, so trying to judge from our knowledge of Shardblades will not work. 

 

Edit: We're talking about the nature of bonds, talking about Hemalurgy hacking is a non sequitur. You could also say you can lend your live-spren Blade to others but its not part of the discussion.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Vaspin