The Bond is The Key

[BlackYeti he/him]

First is what Brandon says, one of his answers from a signing, also above, says that the Honorblades are the basis for everything. Bonds, surges, Ideals, all of it. We don't know how or why but it is what he says.

 

Second, there is the prelude. I never see people talk about it, but it holds much information concerning the story. One of the main themes of it is the Honorblades. Right there, in the prelude they suppose the Oathpact would end if they leave the Blades. We know they were given the Blades from Honor himself, a piece of himself. That says there is a connection between the Honorblades, the Heralds, and the Oathpact. 

 

I'm aware that the spren were trying to mimic the Honourblades through the Nahel Bond, but I was under the impression that the Ideals were established later which would suggest that they are not completely connected to the Honourblades. I am unaware of, and have been unable to find any WoB that states that the Honourblade bond and the Oathpact are the same.

 

I had forgotten about the prelude however, and this does go a long way to support your argument. Having now reread the prelude carefully, I do not think that this makes it ​necessarily true that there is such a connection, the Heralds could have left the blades because they were breaking the Oathpact (or at least they thought that they were) and therefore the blades were no longer necessary. All in all, I'm not convinced, but it is excellent evidence for your argument and well worth an upvote. 

[Localconfusi0n]

I don't see the prelude as saying they thought that leaving their Honorblades would break the Oathpact, actually the specifically noted that Taln remaining in wherever that place is should be enough to keep it going. I remember them mentioning that leaveing their Honorblades was just how it had to be, though the reason was never stated.

 

Now some speculation as to why because an idea just popped into my head, though it contradicts with other things I have said but I know very little on whats actually going on in Roshar. Anyways, maybe they left their Honorblades because they actually do grant Surgebinding abilities, which, as Nalan believes, cause a Desolation and they didn't want to cause another one. That would put Nalans actions of killing off Surgbiners in the right, not that I agree with it, and that could be why they had to leave their Honorblades.

[Moogle]

Not going to do another long post as all my evidence has already been stated. But the reason why the Heralds, Honorblades, and the Oathpact are all connected is based on two reasons. First is what Brandon says, one of his answers from a signing, also above, says that the Honorblades are the basis for everything. Bonds, surges, Ideals, all of it. We don't know how or why but it is what he says.

 

I think you're referring to this:

Q:  Based on what we know currently about the ten heartbeats, why does Szeth require ten heartbeats to bring forth his Honorblade?

A:  Perception is a very important part of how these things all work, and remember, the Honorblades work differently from everything else. Everything was based upon them. Why don't you read and find out what's going on there, but remember, the characters' perception is very important.

 

But he doesn't explicitly say that the Ideals were based on them, nor does he say bonds were based on them. 'Everything' is really quite vague. It seems more to me that he means 'everything about Shardblades was based on Honorblades', but this doesn't mean bonding was based on them at all - the magic system of Surgebinding was not created by Honor, it arose naturally the instant he Invested himself on Roshar. This also says nothing about the Oathpact being linked to the Honorblades.

 

Second, there is the prelude. I never see people talk about it, but it holds much information concerning the story. One of the main themes of it is the Honorblades. Right there, in the prelude they suppose the Oathpact would end if they leave the Blades

 

Can you please provide the passage where they say this?

 

And lets not forget one of the Heralds went back for his Blade, why would he do so if the bond was broken? And if there's no connection between the Honorblades and the Oathpact, what would be the point of leaving them? 

 

If the bond wasn't broken, he could just summon the Honorblade back to him. If the bond wasn't broken, why would he have to go back?

 

As to leaving them, I don't know. The reasons are never stated. It could be that you're right and it ends the Oathpact, but it could also be that it's entirely symbolic (giving up your Honorblade proves you're willing to give up the Oathpact), it could be that Surgebinding brings a Desolation like jefftucker suggests, it could be that, since they were giving up on humanity, the only honorable thing to do was leaving humanity their Blades to help them out in the next Desolation. There's lots of possibilities, and we don't know for sure.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Moogle

[Stormwalker]

Hi all. My first post , but I've been lurking here for awhile now. Anyway, I though I'd put my two cents in on this.

 

 

And this isn't surprising. The Heralds are heralds, not knights. Not warriors. Not champions. The purpose of a herald is to bring news or convey a message, not fight. And this is what the Heralds did - they brought news of the Desolation to mankind, and taught them how to forge bronze and the like. I see nothing wrong with the Knights Radiant being more efficient - they're knights, they are supposed to be better at combat.

 

I find this unlikely. While the Heralds were probably named after their heralding of the desolations, they must have certainly been incredibly powerful in combat: Even though originally there were no spren-bonds, and so the only source of surgebinding was the Heralds, it is apparent that humanity survived the desolations. If 10 Heralds + conventional armies were enough to at least survive a desolation and Radiants are indeed more powerful than heralds, than one would imagine that 10 Heralds + (presumably) hundreds if not thousands of Radiants + conventional armies should have easily defeated all desolations that came afterwards without too much trouble (although I must say, now that I think about this, I somewhat question how they ever survived the first ones).

 

 

So, I think the literal interpretation is heavily implied: Honorblades feed on Stormlight (presumably to power some special abilities we don't know about yet).

 

I must say I had originally agreed with the OP, but I think I like this idea better. As we know from a WoB, Nightblood is also more powerful than a regular shardblade, so it makes sense that extra draining of investiture gives extra powers. Plus, as Vaspin already referenced (yet strangely got the opposite conclusion), we have a WoB that one Herald went back to get their Blade. If the bond wasn't broken then they wouldn't have to go back to get it, they would just summon it to themselves (although I can't find the quote, so my wording could be wrong).

 

 

This also says nothing about the Oathpact being linked to the Honorblades.

 

Well, as to this, in the prelude, Jezrien does strongly imply it:

 

 

Jezrien walked back to the ring of swords. His own Blade formed in his hands, appearing from mist, wet with condensation. “It has been decided, Kalak. We will go our ways, and we will not seek out one another. Our Blades must be left. The Oathpact ends now.” He lifted his sword and rammed it into the stone with the other seven.

 

This was not 'should be left', nor was it 'we will leave our blades and go our seperate ways'. Right after saying things that they would do, he says something they must do: it seems to me that the choice of wording was purposeful. Hence it seem unlikely for it to be for symbolic reasons. Moreover, even Syl could figure out that the Honorblades are dangerous if they get into the wrong hands. If the Heralds wanted to help humanity out by leaving the Blades, then just leaving them in the middle of nowhere is a pretty bad way to go about it (after all, it did lead to Szeth murdering who-knows-how-many people). I would think the Heralds would realize this, and give them to people they know would use them for good (such as the Radiants).

[Vaspin]

Well I'm glad I made sense somewhat, I was beginning to think it was all for naught.

 

But here you go Moogle:

 

 

"Leave your sword," Jezrien said

"What?"

Jezrien nodded to the ring of weapons. "I was chosen to wait for you. We weren't certain if you had survived, A...a decision has been made. It is time for the Oathpact to end."

 

"It has been decided, Kalak. We will go our ways, and we will not seek out one another. Our Blades must be left. The Oathpact ends now."

 

Now if we're to draw any conclusion based on this scene alone, Jezrien was telling him the conditions for ending the Oathpact. At this point in the story we know nothing about surgebinding or bonds. All we know is they left their swords and went their separate ways, those were the conditions for breaking the Oathpact. You have to look at this in just the context of this scene. Nothing else in book one or book two relates to this at all.

 

Saying it was symbolical. they didn't want to surgebind, or anything else stated is making an assumption not based on the facts of the moment.

[kaellok he/him]

 

I don't understand the people who said there was no implication from the quotes or what I stated. They are bound to the Greater Rosharan System for the last 4500 years, everything is based off of the Honorblades, and the Oathpact is not shattered. He even says they work differently than everything else, so trying to judge from our knowledge of Shardblades will not work. 

 

 

Q:  Based on what we know currently about the ten heartbeats, why does Szeth require ten heartbeats to bring forth his Honorblade?

A:  Perception is a very important part of how these things all work, and remember, the Honorblades work differently from everything else. Everything was based upon them. Why don't you read and find out what's going on there, but remember, the characters' perception is very important.

 

 

 

Now if we're to draw any conclusion based on this scene alone, Jezrien was telling him the conditions for ending the Oathpact. At this point in the story we know nothing about surgebinding or bonds. All we know is they left their swords and went their separate ways, those were the conditions for breaking the Oathpact. You have to look at this in just the context of this scene. Nothing else in book one or book two relates to this at all.

 

I really think that you give great advice here, that should be applied elsewhere as well.  The  quote you've provided that seems to be your central foundation for your argument seems, to me, to be talking about Shardblades.  That's what the question was about, was the workings of Shardblades.  I would expect an answer to thus be referring to Shardblades, not suddenly everything.  If I were asking how photovoltaic cells transform solar energy into electricity, I would be very surprised if someone answered with every single theory and law in physics that relate to the transformation of energy from one state to another.  Sure, they'll have answered the question--but in a way that's not immediately helpful, and possibly very confusing in the short term (fairly bad analogy, I know; sorry about that, but I think it gets the point across).  You still may very well be correct, though; as Moogle stated, the wording of 'everything' that Sanderson gives is rather vague.

 

Regarding the ongoing side-issue of the Heralds in combat and how humanity could have survived: One of Dalinar's visions had Honor regret that the Dawnshards were lost to mankind, because they would have been helpful to face the coming Desolation.  I think it is incredibly likely that the Heralds used these, somehow, whatever they were.  (Possibly they were people, maybe Slivers?  Maybe that's what makes Heralds so Heraldic, is that they once held Honor for a bit.  Wild, rampant speculation with absolutely no reason to think that other than it's late and I'm tired. I think that the title "Dawnshard" would be an awesome one to have, though, even if TLR's "Sliver of Infinity" is way better.)

[Moogle]

If 10 Heralds + conventional armies were enough to at least survive a desolation and Radiants are indeed more powerful than heralds, than one would imagine that 10 Heralds + (presumably) hundreds if not thousands of Radiants + conventional armies should have easily defeated all desolations that came afterwards without too much trouble (although I must say, now that I think about this, I somewhat question how they ever survived the first ones).

 

Welcome to the forums!

 

What this implies is that the Heralds and Radiants were not very powerful, which has been my point all along. If adding thousands of Radiants, who each have a decent fraction of the power of a Herald if not more, did not suddenly make the Desolations easy, then we can assume that the Radiants were not more powerful than all of humanity's primitive armies. Humanity should therefore be able to survive a Desolation without the Heralds or Radiants, which makes the most important tool against Odium armies of regular people. (Obviously the Radiants help, however. It's just that there's only a few thousand of them, and Roshar is ever so large.)

Also, I should clarify my point on Heralds: I think that each individual Herald could win in a fight against any Radiant, but I still think they're less efficient Surgebinders. They just get other advantages, like superspeed (see: "Taln" catching darts). WoB is that they had powers unrelated to the Honorblades. What is most important in a war, however, is Stormlight efficiency: there's going to be hours of fighting, and people who can hold Stormlight for hours rather than minutes are naturally going to be more useful/more "powerful".

Now if we're to draw any conclusion based on this scene alone, Jezrien was telling him the conditions for ending the Oathpact. At this point in the story we know nothing about surgebinding or bonds. All we know is they left their swords and went their separate ways, those were the conditions for breaking the Oathpact. You have to look at this in just the context of this scene. Nothing else in book one or book two relates to this at all.

Saying it was symbolical. they didn't want to surgebind, or anything else stated is making an assumption not based on the facts of the moment.

Maybe you're right. I think you're

you're too confident at this point at time about something we know little about. If the Oathpact was intrinsically linked to the Honorblades, then you'd think Szeth would have counted as an honorary Herald and would have went to Braize when he died while holding his bonded Honorblade.

If the Honorblades were linked to the Oathpact, then giving up the Honorblades would have revoked the Oathpact. And yet, by WoB, the Heralds were wrong about their ability to break the entire Oathpact.

Here's some WoBs:

Q: Was Odium able to splinter Honor because the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact?

A: Good question. Um, their abandonment of the Oathpact is related...but mostly tangentially. If I was pinned down on that, I would say no.

Q: Is there any of the Oathpact still functioning because of Taln's continued participation.

A: Yes, indeed.

Q: So, by the nine leaving, did that actually break the Oathpact for them? Did it change the cycle of Desolations?

A: They have not completely broken the Oathpact, despite what they may think.

Q: How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

A: The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

Q: And, how were the Radiants able to summon their Shardblades at the Recreance if they'd already decided to break their oaths?

A: Their Shardblades are part of what brought them to--part of the Oathpact--but breaking the Oathpact did not affect their ability to bond or unbond Shardblades.

(source)

Pay special attention to the last bit - it implies that Radiants themselves are also part of the Oathpact, which is really curious. Also note that the Heralds may very well have managed to completely leave the Oathpact - Brandon only says that the Oathpact is still functioning, he doesn't say that the nine Heralds didn't manage to leave it.

He also says that breaking the Oathpact had nothing to do with summoning or unsummoning their Shardblades.

Sudden theory (note rampant speculation): Nalan is killing Surgebinders because they are what is causing the Oathpact to still function. If he kills them all, and then Taln can be made to abandon the Oathpact, then the Oathpact is over and the cycle of Desolations is broken. This is why Nalan thinks Surgebinders bring Desolations!

Edited August 20, 2014 by Moogle

[Lumen]

If the bond wasn't broken, he could just summon the Honorblade back to him. If the bond wasn't broken, why would he have to go back?

 

Does one need to be touching an Honorblade to make it unsummon?   We know the following:

 

When a Herald dies, his/her blade vanishes.

When an Honorblade is dropped, it does not vanish.

 

Are there any instances that Szeth drops the blade, then dismisses it?  Of course, if that were the case, it could still be a proximity thing.  

 

Also, the blades were thrust into stone.  Not sure if that would affect unsummoning. 

[Moogle]

Does one need to be touching an Honorblade to make it unsummon?   We know the following:

 

When a Herald dies, his/her blade vanishes.

When an Honorblade is dropped, it does not vanish.

 

Are there any instances that Szeth drops the blade, then dismisses it?  Of course, if that were the case, it could still be a proximity thing.  

 

Also, the blades were thrust into stone.  Not sure if that would affect unsummoning. 

 

Regular Shardblades can do it:

Aladar was a Shardbearer, though he commonly lent his Plate and Blade to one of his officers during battles, preferring to lead tactically from behind the battle lines. A practiced Shardbearer could mentally command a Blade to not dissolve when he let go of it, though— in an emergency— Aladar could summon it to himself, making it vanish from the hands of his officer in an eyeblink , then appear in his own hands ten heartbeats later. Lending a Blade required a great deal of trust on both sides.

 

Szeth probably does it in WoK.

He blinked, shaking his head, the world blurry and dark. Was he blind? No. It was dark outside. He was on the wooden balcony; the force of the blow had thrown him through the doors. Something was thumping. Heavy footfalls. The Shardbearer! Szeth stumbled to his feet, vision swimming. Blood streamed from the side of his face, and Stormlight rose from his skin, blinding his left eye. The Light. It would heal him, if it could. His jaw felt unhinged. Broken? He’d dropped his Shardblade.

... [szeth drops the balcony during this time, then speaks with Gavilar, and doesn't mention his Shardblade at all] ...

“I don’t know who that is,” Szeth said, standing, his words slurring from his broken jaw. He held his hand to the side, resummoning his Shardblade.

 

Szeth dropped his Honorblade in surprise without willing it to unsummon, so by WoB it should have not turned to mist. Later, he resummoned it.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Moogle

[Localconfusi0n]

Huh, does anyone think that the fact that the Honorblads were shoved into stone is why Szeth's people find stone holy? They are the ones that have most of them so I presume they also found them.

[18th Shard he/him]

How does Moogle find all the quotes?

 

Welcome to the forums!

 

What this implies is that the Heralds and Radiants were not very powerful, which has been my point all along. If adding thousands of Radiants, who each have a decent fraction of the power of a Herald if not more, did not suddenly make the Desolations easy, then we can assume that the Radiants were not more powerful than all of humanity's primitive armies. [Me] What?!! Have you seen Kaldin in action?!Humanity should therefore be able to survive a Desolation without the Heralds or Radiants, which makes the most important tool against Odium armies of regular people. (Obviously the Radiants help, however. It's just that there's only a few thousand of them, and Roshar is ever so large.)

Also, I should clarify my point on Heralds: I think that each individual Herald could win in a fight against any Radiant, but I still think they're less efficient Surgebinders. They just get other advantages, like superspeed (see: "Taln" catching darts). WoB is that they had powers unrelated to the Honorblades.I haven't seen this one. Can you show it to me? What is most important in a war, however, is Stormlight efficiency: there's going to be hours of fighting, and people who can hold Stormlight for hours rather than minutes are naturally going to be more useful/more "powerful".One atom bomb is less efficient than many bullets, but a nuke can end a war pretty quick.

Maybe you're right. I think you're too confident at this point at time about something we know little about. If the Oathpact was intrinsically linked to the Honorblades, then you'd think Szeth would have counted as an honorary Herald and would have went to Braize when he died while holding his bonded Honorblade.My point was the blade was still Jezrien's but was kind of being loaned out to Szeth. The Heralds are willing their blades to stay away.

If the Honorblades were linked to the Oathpact, then giving up the Honorblades would have revoked the Oathpact. And yet, by WoB, the Heralds were wrong about their ability to break the entire Oathpact.Their bond was bent or hurt, but not broken. (Great. Now I'm imagining an Honorblade singing Just Give Me a Reason.)

Here's some WoBs:

 

Q: Was Odium able to splinter Honor because the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact?
A: Good question. Um, their abandonment of the Oathpact is related...but mostly tangentially. If I was pinned down on that, I would say no.
Q: Is there any of the Oathpact still functioning because of Taln's continued participation.
A: Yes, indeed.

Q: So, by the nine leaving, did that actually break the Oathpact for them? Did it change the cycle of Desolations?
A: They have not completely broken the Oathpact, despite what they may think.

Q: How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?
A: The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

Q: And, how were the Radiants able to summon their Shardblades at the Recreance if they'd already decided to break their oaths?
A: Their Shardblades are part of what brought them to--part of the Oathpact--but breaking the Oathpact did not affect their ability to bond or unbond Shardblades.Doesn't relate to Heralds. They are still immortal, which I assume is part of the effects of the Oathpact.

Pay special attention to the last bit - it implies that Radiants themselves are also part of the Oathpact, which is really curious. Also note that the Heralds may very well have managed to completely leave the Oathpact - Brandon only says that the Oathpact is still functioning, he doesn't say that the nine Heralds didn't manage to leave it.Lacking of Evidence is not Evidence of Lacking.

He also says that breaking the Oathpact had nothing to do with summoning or unsummoning their Shardblades.For Radiants!

Sudden theory (note rampant speculation): Nalan is killing Surgebinders because they are what is causing the Oathpact to still function. If he kills them all, and then Taln can be made to abandon the Oathpact, then the Oathpact is over and the cycle of Desolations is broken. This is why Nalan thinks Surgebinders bring Desolations! If I didn't agree with my OP, then I would bandwagon on this. Convince me in another theory.

See above in red.

 

Although obviously the giving up of the Honorblades didn't end the Oathpact, the Heralds thought it would which reveals that they are at least related.

[Moogle]

How does Moogle find all the quotes?

 

Ebooks and a ctrl+f in the compiled WoB thread.

 

What this implies is that the Heralds and Radiants were not very powerful, which has been my point all along. If adding thousands of Radiants, who each have a decent fraction of the power of a Herald if not more, did not suddenly make the Desolations easy, then we can assume that the Radiants were not more powerful than all of humanity's primitive armies. [Me] What?!! Have you seen Kaldin in action?!

 

Kaladin is not more powerful than an army. Give him an hour, and he can kill maybe 500 people if he's not overcome himself. Radiants are not invincible, and we haven't seen Kaladin fight a thunderclast yet. My point is that Radiants and Heralds are not powerful enough and numerous enough to win Desolations on their own - human armies are what matters. Radiants can help, but they'll never win the war on their own. There's just too many Voidbringers and too few Radiants.

 

WoB is that they had powers unrelated to the Honorblades.I haven't seen this one. Can you show it to me?

 

WoB:

Rybal

Q:  Can the Heralds Surgebind without their Blades and if not are they under the same restrictions that others are.

A:  The Heralds without their Blades are incapable of the powers you're familiar with.  It doesn't mean there aren't other things they can do.

(source)

 

What is most important in a war, however, is Stormlight efficiency: there's going to be hours of fighting, and people who can hold Stormlight for hours rather than minutes are naturally going to be more useful/more "powerful".One atom bomb is less efficient than many bullets, but a nuke can end a war pretty quick.

 

A nuke would not end the cycle of Desolations. Nor would overwhelming might by the Heralds (which they may or may not have had). The Desolations are about whittling down the enemy to nothing. There is no surrender possible. You have to kill every enemy, and my point is that Radiants are better at Heralds than killing large numbers of enemies if they're more efficient with Stormlight.

 

Q: And, how were the Radiants able to summon their Shardblades at the Recreance if they'd already decided to break their oaths?

A: Their Shardblades are part of what brought them to--part of the Oathpact--but breaking the Oathpact did not affect their ability to bond or unbond Shardblades.Doesn't relate to Heralds. They are still immortal, which I assume is part of the effects of the Oathpact.

 

Heralds (presuming "Taln" counts) have super-reactions, which is something normal Radiants do not get. And yet, normal Radiants are also part of the Oathpact by this WoB. So, not all of the Herald's attributes are explainable by their being part of the Oathpact.

 

I think that the Heralds are immortal due to reasons not involving the Oathpact. Like, say, Honor turning them into his version of the Returned and infusing them with power. (The Returned are also immortal, so the Heralds being immortal for similar reasons seems reasonable.)

 

Pay special attention to the last bit - it implies that Radiants themselves are also part of the Oathpact, which is really curious. Also note that the Heralds may very well have managed to completely leave the Oathpact - Brandon only says that the Oathpact is still functioning, he doesn't say that the nine Heralds didn't manage to leave it.Lacking of Evidence is not Evidence of Lacking.

 

Pedanticmooglenote: Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.  It's not proof, though. Either way, we have no way of knowing whether or not the Heralds left the Oathpact - I think it's very possible they did. Here's this WoB:

Q:  How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

A:  The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

(source)

 

They walked away from their oaths, like the Radiants did in the Recreance. This should break their connection to the Oathpact, since it works for Radiants. I think the Heralds are stronger/get other powers/are immortal regardless of whether or not they're part of the Oathpact - the Oathpact just lets them come back to life when they die. I have little evidence for or against this, however. I just think that you're making the Oathpact out to be a bigger deal than it is.

 

He also says that breaking the Oathpact had nothing to do with summoning or unsummoning their Shardblades.For Radiants!

 

And yes, this relates to the Heralds: the Radiants can still summon or unsummon their Shardblades, even after breaking their oaths, so it seems reasonable that the Heralds should be able to summon or unsummon their Honorblades even after breaking their oaths, so long as they still are bonded.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Moogle

[Vaspin]

 

Pay special attention to the last bit - it implies that Radiants themselves are also part of the Oathpact, which is really curious. Also note that the Heralds may very well have managed to completely leave the Oathpact - Brandon only says that the Oathpact is still functioning, he doesn't say that the nine Heralds didn't manage to leave it.Lacking of Evidence is not Evidence of Lacking.

 

Pedanticmooglenote: Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.  It's not proof, though. Either way, we have no way of knowing whether or not the Heralds left the Oathpact - I think it's very possible they did. Here's this WoB:

Quote

Q:  How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

A:  The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

(source)

 

They walked away from their oaths, like the Radiants did in the Recreance. This should break their connection to the Oathpact, since it works for Radiants. I think the Heralds are stronger/get other powers/are immortal regardless of whether or not they're part of the Oathpact - the Oathpact just lets them come back to life when they die. I have little evidence for or against this, however. I just think that you're making the Oathpact out to be a bigger deal than it is.

 

The Oathpact is a bigger deal than you give it credit for. The Heralds, who made it their lives to lead and teach humanity, made a decision to attempt to shatter it. It's also mentioned in Kaladin's dream as he is flying around with the Stormfather. There is a reason why in the beginning of the book what you're told first is about the Heralds, the Honorblades, and the Oathpact. First, before all else! All of those play an important role in what is building to be the main conflict of the series. It mentions the enemy who is trapped, which we assume is Odium, seemingly because of the Oathpact. This frustratingly short section of the book is absolutely important if you want to understand the true conflict.

 

Also the Radiants are not part of the Oathpact. You already have a quote from Brandon where he says there are only two parties involved: The Heralds and Honor. He does, however, mention the Shardblades. I have no idea how the Blades fit into the Oathpact, but if it's what he says then it's what he says. It can't be the Radiants, since they were not created until after and it wasn't the design of Honor for the spren to get involved.

 

You can't liken the Returned to the Heralds, different Shards different intents. The point of the Returned is that they are given an oppurtunity to heal a person. One magnificent Breath at their disposal. Endowment. Brandon is always talking about the Shard's intent determines the manner in how it influences the world around it. Intent for the Shard of Honor seems to be about upholding an Ideal, being steadfast in your own beliefs. The Heralds are living ideals, Jez: protecting, Nale: justice, Vedel: love, etc. They are the Heralds of the Almighty because their life is about upholding a belief. 

[Moogle]

The Oathpact is a bigger deal than you give it credit for. The Heralds, who made it their lives to lead and teach humanity, made a decision to attempt to shatter it. It's also mentioned in Kaladin's dream as he is flying around with the Stormfather. There is a reason why in the beginning of the book what you're told first is about the Heralds, the Honorblades, and the Oathpact. First, before all else! All of those play an important role in what is building to be the main conflict of the series. It mentions the enemy who is trapped, which we assume is Odium, seemingly because of the Oathpact. This frustratingly short section of the book is absolutely important if you want to understand the true conflict.

 

There is a leap you're making here. The Oathpact is very important for defining the duty of the Heralds, and it probably relates to how Honor has trapped Odium and how they've got it set up so there needs to be the cycle of Desolations. I'll accept that. It's fine.

 

But then you go a step farther and say that therefore this is what gives the Heralds immortality. I disagree with this step of logic. It might be the case, it might not.

 

Also the Radiants are not part of the Oathpact. You already have a quote from Brandon where he says there are only two parties involved: The Heralds and Honor. He does, however, mention the Shardblades. I have no idea how the Blades fit into the Oathpact, but if it's what he says then it's what he says. It can't be the Radiants, since they were not created until after and it wasn't the design of Honor for the spren to get involved.

 

Brandon's quote says there was originally two parties to the Oathpact. The Radiants did not exist until later, and the WoB says that the Radiants were part of the Oathpact. The WoBs work together. (I am suspicious of the Oathpact one, though, but I'm going to reluctantly accept it until we find evidence otherwise. It was from EHyde, who is a trustworthy source for having reported it accurately.)

 

If the Honorblades were central to the Oathpact, as you and the OP have theorized, it would make sense that the spren (who have copied the Honorblades) cause people they bond to to become part of the Oathpact. The original Oathpact may in fact have specified the Heralds as "wielders of blades filled with Honor's Investiture", which lets the Radiants get added in without any issues. Honor just never considered that the spren could/would copy the Honorblades.

 

You can't liken the Returned to the Heralds, different Shards different intents. The point of the Returned is that they are given an oppurtunity to heal a person. One magnificent Breath at their disposal. Endowment. Brandon is always talking about the Shard's intent determines the manner in how it influences the world around it. Intent for the Shard of Honor seems to be about upholding an Ideal, being steadfast in your own beliefs. The Heralds are living ideals, Jez: protecting, Nale: justice, Vedel: love, etc. They are the Heralds of the Almighty because their life is about upholding a belief.

 

The two can be likened to the same class of being. You take a (possibly dead) someone, shove a Splinter into them, and suddenly they gain some sweet benefits.

 

Both Returned and Heralds have connections to death and the ability to come back to life. Both are immortal. Both seem to be in either peak physical condition or else have enhanced physical attributes (presuming "Taln" is a Herald - I'm a huge fan of the Jezrien-is-whacked theory, personally), both have a mission given to them by their Shard (which is not necessarily healing for Returned - Blushweaver's purpose was to stop the coming war, as I recall, not heal anybody), both are worshipped as divine...

 

It wouldn't be a stretch, at all, for Heralds to be like Returned. It would also explain their longevity, their combat ability, and their "other powers" that Brandon speaks of. The Radiants were supposedly part of the Oathpact, and didn't gain these abilities, so we need to look elsewhere for the source of the Herald's abilities. It seems to me that the easiest explanation is that Honor modified the Heralds like Endowment modifies the Returned. Odium apparently did a similar thing when creating the Unmade; possibly the creation of such beings was part of the deal forced upon Odium.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Moogle

[Vaspin]

 

 

 "wielders of blades filled with Honor's Investiture"

 

Why would it even be worded like that? It wouldn't make sense for those being the words for the Oathpact, or anything similar. If that was the case it would actually be broken because they weren't wielding the Blades any longer after the last Desolation and yet they are still alive.

 

I keep saying you can't compare Honorblades to Shard/spren-Blades, because they are different. I think something you have failed to realize is Honorblades aren't made from spren. It's very likely they are a piece of Honor himself. It explains why the spren are able to mimic the Honorblades since they are pieces Honor as well, albeit of a lower magnitude. But it would also explain why Honorblades do not disappear when they are dropped and Shardblades/spren-Blades do. The other Blades are made up of a sentient entity, they are not actual Blades, they just somehow manage to take the form of one and when they are no longer being used in that form they disappear. Honorblades are  This may also be why Shardblades are included in the Oathpact, because the manner in which the Honorblades came to be would also apply to the Shardblades since they are a version of them. You tried to lessen Brandon saying everything is based off of the Honorblades, but you really should not. You want to make Honorblades out to be just as good as Shardblades, but they will always be copies of the original design. But never as good as the original

 

 

These Blades were weapons of power even beyond Shardblades. These were unique. Precious.

 

The text itself says claims they are better than Shardblades.

 

The Breath of a Returned is for the purpose of healing someone. They can do whatever they want, but that's why they were given the Breath and allowed to come back. They also are not immortal nor do they have an ability to come back to life, Returned are people who haven't died yet technically and they don't age. There are also no visible similarities between Heralds and Return. I'm not sure where you are making up these comparisons from but they don't seem right. For instance, even though they are capable of more than humans the Heralds are still men and women( I assume). The Returned are a different race altogether. The Heralds don't seem to be Invested directly from any Shard, only through the Honorblades, whereas being inherently gifted with a piece of Endowment is the basis for being a Returned. If the Heralds had been Invested, as you say, then they would be able to surgebind without the use of the Honorblades but we know this to be false. I will posit, though, any abilities they have are because they are not from Roshar

[Localconfusi0n]

Vaspin, you have some good arguments, however one thing is the Heralds definitely are not just regular humans. They heave to have some sort of Investiture directly from a Shard or else they would not be capable of doing what they do i.e. immortality, super-speed, and who knows what else, these are all things that are only possible through some sort of magic system/investiture, which are really the same thing. A Gold compounder is immortal through Preservations Investiture, though in a more indirect way than a Returned is from Endowment. Obviously the Heralds received something directly from Honor, besides the Honorblades, that granted them their abilities.

[Moogle]

Warbreaker spoilers contained within. Be wary, all ye who read.

 

Why would it even be worded like that? It wouldn't make sense for those being the words for the Oathpact, or anything similar. If that was the case it would actually be broken because they weren't wielding the Blades any longer after the last Desolation and yet they are still alive.

 

It was an example wording, trying to show that the Oathpact could have been arranged such that it accidentally included the Radiants. I wasn't arguing that the Oathpact was literally worded that way - though it could have been.

 

I'm saying that it's unlikely the Herald's immortality came from the Oathpact and that nine of the Heralds did in fact leave the Oathpact (maybe eight depending on Nalan). The Radiants were apparently part of the Oathpact and did not gain the same benefits as the Heralds, which means the Heralds must have received some of their powers (including immortality) from elsewhere.
 

The other Blades are made up of a sentient entity, they are not actual Blades, they just somehow manage to take the form of one and when they are no longer being used in that form they disappear.

 
Where do think Honorblades go when they turn to mist and why do you think they retain their form when they turn into mist?
 

This may also be why Shardblades are included in the Oathpact, because the manner in which the Honorblades came to be would also apply to the Shardblades since they are a version of them.

 
This was my point, yes.
 

You tried to lessen Brandon saying everything is based off of the Honorblades, but you really should not. You want to make Honorblades out to be just as good as Shardblades, but they will always be copies of the original design. But never as good as the original

The text itself says claims they are better than Shardblades.

 
The text says they're more powerful, in the opinion of one Herald, which is not the same thing as being better.
 
Technology improves all the time. I see no reason why spren-bonders cannot be more efficient than the Honorblade-bonders at Surgebinding, which were Honor's first attempt at the whole thing. Obviously they're more powerful in other ways, going by Kalak, but that is not the same thing at all as being more efficient. LEDs are more efficient at converting energy to visible light than bonfires, but bonfires have more power.
 

The Breath of a Returned is for the purpose of healing someone. They can do whatever they want, but that's why they were given the Breath and allowed to come back.

 
This is never stated anywhere to my knowledge. Can you provide a citation for this? I've always felt that they Returned for various reasons, some of which included healing. Warbreaker Annotations say this on Blushweaver:

What did Blushweaver achieve? In fact, she Returned in the first place to be involved in this ending as well. One thing to note about the Returned coming back is that they do see the future, but when they Return, they aren’t guaranteed to be able to change anything. Before her Return, Blushweaver was a powerful merchant in the city, and very well known. She was assassinated after denouncing a group of dye merchants she’d worked with for their deceptive and criminal practices. Her testimony ended with them in jail, but it got her killed. That’s how she earned the title of Blushweaver the Honest (which, if you’ll remember, she eventually got changed to Blushweaver the Beautiful).

She Returned because she didn’t want T’Telir to fall to the invaders she saw taking it after Bluefingers and the others caused their revolt. That was why she gathered the armies. While she didn’t succeed in her quest as well as Lightsong did, she did help out quite a bit. I think she’s pleased, on the other side, with how things turned out.

(source)

 

Nothing in here says Blushweaver returned to heal anyone.

 

Also, it's possible to use the Divine Breath for Awakening:

Cheese Ninja
Is it hypothetically possible to Awaken an object using a Divine Breath?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes

(source)

 

I've always wondered whether losing the Divine Breath kills Returned, or if it's that when they give up their Divine Breath to others that it drains their color so much they die (since it would be like being cut with a Shardblade; both turn you to gray, implying giving up their Divine Breath drains so much color it breaks their soul).

 

There are also no visible similarities between Heralds and Return. I'm not sure where you are making up these comparisons from but they don't seem right. For instance, even though they are capable of more than humans the Heralds are still men and women( I assume). The Returned are a different race altogether.

 

Do you have a citation for Returned being a different race? They're dead humans, who came back into a human body with some added Investiture... I'm not following your train of thought here. Both seem to be modified humans. Compare:

“The Desolation . . .” Talenelat whispered.

“Yes. It comes. And with it, your return to glory.” Amaram began to walk the Herald toward his opening. “We must get you to—”

The Herald’s hand snapped up in front of him. Amaram started, freezing in place, as he saw something in the Herald’s fingers. A small dart, the tip dripping with some clear liquid. Amaram glanced at the opening, which spilled sunlight into the room. A small figure there made a puffing sound, a blowgun held to lips beneath a half mask that covered the upper face. The Herald’s other hand shot out, quick as an eyeblink, and snatched the dart from the air mere inches from Amaram’s face.

(from WoR)

 

Denth stood up slowly.  “We’re leaving,” he said.  Grable’s bodyguards stood up too.  
Denth moved.
There were flashes--reflections of sunlight, and bodies moving too fast for Vivenna’s shocked mind to follow.  Then the motion stopped.  Grable remained in his chair.  Denth stood poised, his dueling blade sticking through the neck of one of the bodyguards.
The bodyguard looked surprised, his hand still on his sword.  Vivenna hadn’t even seen Denth draw his weapon.  The other bodyguard stumbled, blood staining the front of his jerkin from where--shockingly--Denth seemed to have managed to stab him as well.
He slipped to the ground, bumping Grable’s table in his death throes.  
Lord of Colors. . . . Vivenna thought.  So fast!
“So, you are as good as they say,” Grable said, still looking unconcerned.  Around the room, other men had stood.  Some twenty of them.  Tonk Fah grabbed another handful of fried things, then nudged Vivenna.  “We might want to get up,” he whispered.
Denth pulled his sword free of the bodyguard’s neck, and the man joined his friend, bleeding and dying on the floor.  Denth slammed his sword into its sheath without wiping it, never breaking Grable’s gaze.
“People speak of you,” Grable said.  “Say you appeared out of nowhere a decade or so back.  Gathered yourself a team of the best--stole them from important men.  Or important prisons.  Nobody knows much about you, other than the fact that you’re fast.  Some say inhumanly so.”

(from Warbreaker)

 

Denth is inhumanly fast, much like "Taln". Heralds and Returned both seem to gain immortality and super speed not possessed by regular humans. They both come back from the dead, both with a purpose. If you don't see how Returned and Heralds are similar, I'm not sure what other arguments I can make. We can agree to disagree.

 

The Heralds don't seem to be Invested directly from any Shard, only through the Honorblades, whereas being inherently gifted with a piece of Endowment is the basis for being a Returned.

 

How do you know Heralds are not Invested? Vasher went the entire novel without explicitly showing himself to be anything other than human - being Invested does not mean you have to glow and have a giant sign flashing above your head saying "LOOK GUYS, INVESTITURE!". (Though it often means exactly that.)

 

If the Heralds had been Invested, as you say, then they would be able to surgebind without the use of the Honorblades but we know this to be false. I will posit, though, any abilities they have are because they are not from Roshar

 

How do you know they would be able to Surgebind without Honorblades if they were Invested? Where are you getting that from?

 

Their abilities coming from a non-Rosharian source could be true. I doubt it, but it could be true. All I'm saying is that their non-Surgebinding abilities and physical enhancements probably don't come from the Oathpact.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Moogle

[kaellok he/him]

Why would it even be worded like that? It wouldn't make sense for those being the words for the Oathpact, or anything similar. If that was the case it would actually be broken because they weren't wielding the Blades any longer after the last Desolation and yet they are still alive.

I believe that what Moogle was doing was giving an example of how the Oathpact could have been worded that would have seamlessly enveloped the Radiants into it, whether they knew it or not.  The argument is that it could have happened, not how it happened.

 

 

The text itself says claims they are better than Shardblades.

 

Pedantic point on semantics: the text itself says that they are unique and special beyond even Shardblades--not better.  Again implying that they serve different purposes, which actually strengthens your argument.

 

 

<<I tried responding entirely to your last thread, but it just came out too harsh, and I don't mean it like that.  Instead summarizing below>>  I really do think that your idea is rather cool and neat, and may have some bits correct (regarding the larger issues with the Bond).  I can even see a few different ways that the Honorblades being the focus for literally everything could be pretty awesome (which means others can see far more).  I just don't buy into the evidence you've presented, and your counter-arguments seem to miss the point of the explanations why.

[Vaspin]

I don't plan to add anymore sources because every time I did they were overlooked or some kind of way discounted. For example I quoted what Moogle said about the wording of the Oathpact, but I went on to say no similar wording would work either, however that was ignored and the focus was that I singled out his exact wording, but that's my explanation for why I'm not citing things anymore in this thread.

 

My information about the Returned I got from Warbreaker, when Vasher was explaining to Vivenna about Breath and how it manifests. They are described as BioChromatic entities. His exact words are "Spontaneous Sentient BioChromatic Manifestations in a Deceased Host. That is not a description of a human. There is no place which says "Returned aren't human," but humans can't do what Returned people can, nor do they come into existence the same way as humans. If you want to make the argument Returned are human, then that must mean kandra are as well because to me there are similarities between the two. And again I've always said their Breath was used for healing, but they could pursuit any goals/objectives they chose. But let's get one thing clear: they are not immortal. Immortality means you can not die, but the Returned are able to be killed like anyone else. They will not suffer from diseases or aging, but a knife through the heart and they are gone. Also you can find something comparable in most things, being strong, ageless, and fast can be applied to a few beings in the Cosmere, it does not, however, make all of those things similar. If you want to say there are similar traits between the two go ahead, but it will not mean the Heralds and Returned are similar. But agree to disagree if we must.

 

There's a WoB which he alludes to them not being able to surgebind without the Honorblades. And how is it pedantic when it clearly says they are more powerful and it would be from someone who would know because Kalak was their to receive his Honorblade and is aware of the Radiants existence and their capabilities. I'm the one being called pedantic, but I quoted the book and Moogle says "in the opinion of one Herald, which is not the same thing as being better." Power is a descriptive word he used and the context of which he was spoke was saying one Blade is of higher level than the other. The only way that it could not be qualified as being inferior is because spren-Blades, not even Shardblades, can change their shape completely, but that is looking at the use of spren-Blades in a completely different fashion than their normal use from our knowledge. And I say they aren't invested because they have never held the the power of Honor, if so they would be Slivers, I think that's the correct term, but they have already been classified as not being Slivers. And if Slivers is the wrong thing to think of them as, I just don't think Shards work like that. I really do not think they can Invest directly into a human, or any intelligent being, and then not be called a Sliver. 

 

You keep saying the Radiants are part of the Oathpact but it does not say that anywhere. Can you at least admit that? In the WoB you've quoted, it says Shardblades not Radiants. Honorblades retain their form when they form because they were made to be swords. It's the same reason spren stay in Shardblade form when their bonds are broken it's the form they were trying to take. I do think they both come from the place, spren/Shardblades & Honorblades. Taln was described as being wet as he walked into Alethkar and the Blades are described as being covered slightly in water. Somehow they are on another world and get transported through Shardpools. Don't know enough about Shardpools and how spren turn themselves into Blades so I'm not going to pass that off as fact

[Moogle]

My information about the Returned I got from Warbreaker, when Vasher was explaining to Vivenna about Breath and how it manifests. They are described as BioChromatic entities. His exact words are "Spontaneous Sentient BioChromatic Manifestations in a Deceased Host. That is not a description of a human. There is no place which says "Returned aren't human," but humans can't do what Returned people can, nor do they come into existence the same way as humans.

 

Nobody in Warbreaker, including Vasher, understands the Returned like we do. Vasher is attempting to put things into boxes - he sees a dead person, they gain a super-strong Breath, so he applies a scientific label to them. And he's not wrong, but that doesn't make Returned not human. Returned are humans who die, have their souls meet Endowment and get the chance to go back, and then go back into their old bodies with a Divine Breath. In no part of this is humanity lost. Instead, something else is gained.

 

If you want to make the argument Returned are human, then that must mean kandra are as well because to me there are similarities between the two.

 

Kandra were once human, but they had their entire physiology altered by the someone with the power of a Shard. I think it's very fair to say that Returned are human whilst kandra are not - Returned are still using their same old body, just with an infusion of Investiture, but kandra don't have their old bodies anymore.

 

And again I've always said their Breath was used for healing, but they could pursuit any goals/objectives they chose.

 

You said "The Breath of a Returned is for the purpose of healing someone. They can do whatever they want, but that's why they were given the Breath and allowed to come back." and "The point of the Returned is that they are given an oppurtunity to heal a person."

 

Sorry for misinterpreting you; it definitely sounded like you were saying that the point of Returned is that they're supposed to come back and heal someone.

 

There's a WoB which he alludes to them not being able to surgebind without the Honorblades. And how is it pedantic when it clearly says they are more powerful and it would be from someone who would know because Kalak was their to receive his Honorblade and is aware of the Radiants existence and their capabilities. I'm the one being called pedantic, but I quoted the book and Moogle says "in the opinion of one Herald, which is not the same thing as being better." Power is a descriptive word he used and the context of which he was spoke was saying one Blade is of higher level than the other. The only way that it could not be qualified as being inferior is because spren-Blades, not even Shardblades, can change their shape completely, but that is looking at the use of spren-Blades in a completely different fashion than their normal use from our knowledge.

 

You're not being called pedantic. I was calling myself pedantic, and kaellok was also calling himself pedantic.

 

As to Honorblades: I agree they're more "powerful". I agree that Kalak himself would know very well the differences between Honorblades and Sprenblades. It is, however, abundantly clear that people (including Heralds) are less efficient at Surgebinding when they use an Honorblade. It feeds on their Stormlight. The fact that it feeds on Stormlight is probably the reason Honorblades are more powerful, in fact - it uses the Stormlight it consumes to power things we don't know of yet.

 

And I say they aren't invested because they have never held the the power of Honor, if so they would be Slivers, I think that's the correct term, but they have already been classified as not being Slivers. And if Slivers is the wrong thing to think of them as, I just don't think Shards work like that. I really do not think they can Invest directly into a human, or any intelligent being, and then not be called a Sliver.

 

When I say "Invested", I mean that a part of a Shard was stuck into them. A Sliver is someone who held a lot of a Shard's power and then gave it up, like Vin and Rashek. Heralds are not Slivers, but they might have the power of a Shard stuck into them, like the Returned.

 

When a Shard gives up a portion of its power, the power is called a Splinter. Divine Breaths are Splinters, the Aons at the heart of Seons are Splinters, honorspren are Splinters, and I am saying that I think a Splinter was stuck into each Herald. The theory I've been bringing forth is that each Herald might have gained a sort of Divine Breath, except from Honor so it's not a Breath. This improves their speed, brings them back from the dead, stops them from aging, and gives them other powers. You are saying that the Oathpact gave them these powers, and I disagree.

 

You keep saying the Radiants are part of the Oathpact but it does not say that anywhere. Can you at least admit that? In the WoB you've quoted, it says Shardblades not Radiants.

 

The WoB is transcribed from Brandon speaking. It's not as clear as if he wrote it. It says:

Q: And, how were the Radiants able to summon their Shardblades at the Recreance if they'd already decided to break their oaths?

A: Their Shardblades are part of what brought them to--part of the Oathpact--but breaking the Oathpact did not affect their ability to bond or unbond Shardblades.

 

Specifically, it says "breaking the Oathpact did not affect their ability to bond or unbond Shardblades". When Brandon says "their", he is referring to the Knights Radiant, as far as I can tell. So... maybe we'll have to agree to disagree here as well.

 

---

 

I don't think we're making much progress in this discussion anymore, though you've said a lot of interesting things previously. I'm definitely thinking that maybe the Honorblades were what bound the Heralds to the Oathpact now, and you've made me lean strongly towards a few different things. If you want, we can call it quits and stop discussing this, since we're pretty far off-topic. I keep accidentally making huge posts, and I get the feeling that maybe you're not enjoying the discussion anymore. I didn't mean to make anyone feel frustrated with all this.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Moogle

[Vaspin]

Eh in the moment of when I'm writing and thinking, I'm reacting to what's being said. I can come off aggressive though. But I'm actually enjoying this. You've made me really look at some of my thoughts concerning this series and have helped spark some new ones. All is fine

[18th Shard he/him]

 

As to Honorblades: I agree they're more "powerful". I agree that Kalak himself would know very well the differences between Honorblades and Sprenblades. It is, however, abundantly clear that people (including Heralds) are less efficient at Surgebinding when they use an Honorblade. It feeds on their Stormlight. The fact that it feeds on Stormlight is probably the reason Honorblades are more powerful, in fact - it uses the Stormlight it consumes to power things we don't know of yet.

 

 

When I say "Invested", I mean that a part of a Shard was stuck into them. A Sliver is someone who held a lot of a Shard's power and then gave it up, like Vin and Rashek. Heralds are not Slivers, but they might have the power of a Shard stuck into them, like the Returned.

 

When a Shard gives up a portion of its power, the power is called a Splinter. Divine Breaths are Splinters, the Aons at the heart of Seons are Splinters, honorspren are Splinters, and I am saying that I think a Splinter was stuck into each Herald. The theory I've been bringing forth is that each Herald might have gained a sort of Divine Breath, except from Honor so it's not a Breath. This improves their speed, brings them back from the dead, stops them from aging, and gives them other powers. You are saying that the Oathpact gave them these powers, and I disagree. I agree. The Honorblade is a manifestation of the Sliver they hold.

...

 

Specifically, it says "breaking the Oathpact did not affect their ability to bond or unbond Shardblades". When Brandon says "their", he is referring to the Knights Radiant, as far as I can tell. So... maybe we'll have to agree to disagree here as well. Seconded. The whole arguement is unprovable by current information.