Discord will be more Preservation than Ruin

[discord=more_preservation]

OK, I don't know if I've seen this theory before, but I think it's definitely possible: Discord will be more Preservation than Ruin. Most people assume that Discord will be more Ruin than Preservation for several reasons. But I don't think that is the case. I'm going to try to articulate in a few points: (1) Atium was burned by Elend and crew right before Sazed took up the shards of Preservation and Ruin; (2) Major discord happened in Era 1 because of Preservation's influence; (3) Sanderson uses music and psychophysics a lot to help us understand the shards (i.e., discord happens a lot when you are "preserving" a note too long).

1) From what I understand, Leras splintered off a part of Ati's power to create Atium. As long as Leras, as Preservation, could block Ati from retrieving it, Ati was somewhat weakened. This helped make sure Ruin could not overpower Preservation. When Vin takes up Preservation's power, she is equal to Ati's power. Ati's goal was to get the Atium and thus have the upper hand. However, Elend and his Atium mistings burned it before he could regain it. The atium should theoretically regenerate, but that takes time. The power that was burned is in a transition state, waiting to seep back into the world at the Pits of Hathsin. But this takes hundreds of years. Merely minutes after all the Atium was burned by Elend, Vin kills Ati, and Sazed takes up their shards. The Atium in the transition state would not turn back into Atium. It would turn into Harmonium, equal parts Preservation and Ruin. Half of the Atium that was burned got converted into Preservation's power. Sazed, holding both shards, would have access to it (i.e., Leras is dead, and no one is acting as a gatekeeper). Harmony, therefore, has a tiny bit more Preservation in them than they do Ruin. 

2) Discord happens whenever the two shards are out of balance. It doesn't just happen when Ruin is stronger than Preservation. Case in point, Era 1 was dominated by Preservation's influence. Preservation had "locked up" Ruin in the Well of Ascension. The Lord Ruler was Preservation's idea, and the Lord Ruler was not a harmonious leader. As a matter of fact, I would argue he created quite a bit of discord. 

3) If there's anything we've learned from the Rhythm of War, it's that Brandon Sanderson uses music to help us understand investiture. The right musical harmonies can be used to combine stormlight and voidlight for example. Harmony, meaning Sazed, is currently in harmony, when using music as a metaphor. But how could there be discord (i.e., something not in harmony)? Well, there are a couple ways. One way would be to play sort of random notes that aren't octaves, perfect fifths etc. That would be something like "ruining" the music. People would hate that. Another way, however, is to keep playing a note even as the rest of the music moves on. You're "preserving" a note that doesn't harmonize with new chords. This creates discord. People LOVE discord in music, especially when it is mixed with harmony. You're not ruining the music, but making it better. Hence the " His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it." 

Just a crazy idea (that I think is just crazy enough to be correct)!

[Alumínio]

Currently my favorite theory

[discord=more_preservation]

1 hour ago, Alumínio said:

Currently my favorite theory

Thanks!

[alder24]

3 hours ago, discord=more_preservation said:

The Atium in the transition state would not turn back into Atium. It would turn into Harmonium, equal parts Preservation and Ruin. Half of the Atium that was burned got converted into Preservation's power. Sazed, holding both shards, would have access to it (i.e., Leras is dead, and no one is acting as a gatekeeper). Harmony, therefore, has a tiny bit more Preservation in them than they do Ruin. 

That's not possible. Atium is pure Ruin's essence, it can't just turn into Preservation's power. Harmonium is half and half Ruin and Preservation, you can't get that from Atium alone. 

The question is, is Atium still locked in the cycle, changed to a different cycle (Harmonium) or did it return to Shard. Atium was gone for 300 year, unavailable even to Ruin - Harmony couldn't use it even if he wanted. He could change it and make make it as additional investiture for Harmonium or return it to his pull of combined Shardic investiture after 300 years have passed. If Sazed did that, he would unbalance himself, because for every bit of Atium invested in Harmonium, he would need the same amount of Preservation and this would result in weakening of his Preservation's side, and if he return it back to Ruin, Ruin would get stronger than Preservation. Only if Sazed leave it in the Atium cycle he could remain in "harmony". But the Pits don't produce Atium anymore, Wax saw them in SoS - it's possible that Atium is created in a different place, but that's unlikely. This means that Sazed change Atium's investiture in a way that furthers unbalance of his two halfs in favor of Ruin.

This is supported by Kelsier in TLM - Harmony is in imbalance, he has more Ruin in himself than Preservation. Atium's investiture likely returned and cause imbalance. TLM epilogue 4:

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Harmony wasn’t accompanied by his dark double, the shadowy version that sometimes appeared these days. A representation of his other self. [...]
And there was a darkness within him. A different face from the one he showed. The powers were in imbalance. Ruin had always been stronger.

 

The other point is that Harmony already favors Preservation over Ruin - Ruin is subservient to Preservation. Despite Ruin being stronger, Harmony forces his rule over it and choses to Preserve more than to Ruin. TLM Ars Arcanum:

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Modern souls, however, seem to simply reject spikes of this magnitude. Further research is required, but I believe that this has something to do with the nature of Ruin’s subservience to Preservation in the current dual vessel known as Harmony

 

Based on that I see two possibilities:

• Sazed's will will prevail and he will keep pushing Ruin into submission and fully embrace Discord favoring Preservation. This could also mean that Sazed is already Discord as that's precisely what he is doing currently. He just doesn't want to admit it or hasn't realized it yet.
• Ruin's power will overwhelm Sazed, maybe even change his personality a bit (holding Shardic power does that) and Discord will favor Ruin.

I personally support the latter as I believe we won't see this destructive Ruin we know from Era 1, but we will see Sazed allowing embracing a more tamed version of Ruin, more beneficial, driving changes in society and technology forward, not just pure destructive power. Discord/Harmony is still Ruin and Preservation and that will change how Ruin part is manifesting.

4 hours ago, discord=more_preservation said:

2) Discord happens whenever the two shards are out of balance. It doesn't just happen when Ruin is stronger than Preservation. Case in point, Era 1 was dominated by Preservation's influence. Preservation had "locked up" Ruin in the Well of Ascension. The Lord Ruler was Preservation's idea, and the Lord Ruler was not a harmonious leader. As a matter of fact, I would argue he created quite a bit of discord. 

Good point, but I think the opposite. Because of how Preservation dominated Scadrial was over millennia, having a Ruin dominated period would be narratively more interesting. 

Also The Lord Ruler wasn't Preservation's idea - possibly, who knows what Leras had really planned.

 

Overall your theory isn't crazy, it's well versed and well thought. It's very likely that this will happen because this is already happening. I especially like the 3rd point about music, it makes a lot of sense if you look at it that way. Good job. 

[Immortal Platypus]

4 hours ago, discord=more_preservation said:

Sanderson uses music and psychophysics a lot to help us understand the shards (i.e., discord happens a lot when you are "preserving" a note too long).

to be entirely fair, discord happens a much more often when you ruin a note, as opposed to holding one too long.

[discord=more_preservation]

Thanks for the repy @alder24 Sorry for the late response.

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That's not possible. Atium is pure Ruin's essence, it can't just turn into Preservation's power. Harmonium is half and half Ruin and Preservation, you can't get that from Atium alone.

Are we sure about this? Isn't it possible that after Sazed became Harmony, the shards merged, changing Atium's essence? The Atium locked in the cycle could get converted into Harmonium because its essence/identity changes (similar to forgery). In other words, Atium was Ruin's essence, but there is no Ruin anymore. In Era 1, Lerasium didn't seep into the world, only Atium did. But Harmonium is seeping into the world in Era 2. I think it's possible that only the Atium is being converted, which weakens Ruin's influence.

 

 

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The other point is that Harmony already favors Preservation over Ruin - Ruin is subservient to Preservation. Despite Ruin being stronger, Harmony forces his rule over it and choses to Preserve more than to Ruin. TLM Ars Arcanum:

Quote

Modern souls, however, seem to simply reject spikes of this magnitude. Further research is required, but I believe that this has something to do with the nature of Ruin’s subservience to Preservation in the current dual vessel known as Harmony

 

This quote is compatible with the idea that Ruin is now weaker. Ruin is subservient to Preservation because there is less of Ruin's power in Harmony.

 

 

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This is supported by Kelsier in TLM - Harmony is in imbalance, he has more Ruin in himself than Preservation. Atium's investiture likely returned and cause imbalance. TLM epilogue 4:
 

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Harmony wasn’t accompanied by his dark double, the shadowy version that sometimes appeared these days. A representation of his other self. [...]
And there was a darkness within him. A different face from the one he showed. The powers were in imbalance. Ruin had always been stronger.

 

This is a perfect red herring! What we learn from Kelsier is (1) the powers are in imbalance and (2) that Ruin used to be stronger but isn't anymore.

The last line of that quote is "Ruin had always been stronger." This is the past perfect, not the present perfect. Let's take two sentences:

(1) I have always liked him.

(2) I had always liked him.

In the first sentence, I still like like the person I'm referring to. In the second, I no longer like that person. The first implies something started in the past and is still ongoing. The second implies that something used to be in the past, but is not longer true in the present (because something happened in between).

Edited October 9, 2023 by discord=more_preservation

[discord=more_preservation]

On 10/4/2023 at 3:50 PM, Being of Cacophony said:

to be entirely fair, discord happens a much more often when you ruin a note, as opposed to holding one too long.

This is true, but people generally don't like ruining a note to create discord. They like planned discord, which depends on which notes/chords were previously played.

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, discord=more_preservation said:

Are we sure about this? Isn't it possible that after Sazed became Harmony, the shards merged, changing Atium's essence?

Yes, Atium is Atium, Ruin's investiture is still Ruin's investiture. Harmony is made out of both Ruin and Preservation's investiture, separate yet combined, but not merged into one. Sazed holds both Shards, and that's why Harmonium is manifested as a mixture of both investitures. HoA ch 82:

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The powers were opposites. As he drew them in, they threatened to annihilate each other. And yet, because he was of one mind on how to use them, he could keep them separate. They could touch without destroying each other, if he willed it. For these two powers had been used to create all things. If they fought, they destroyed. If they were used together, they created.

 

Spoiler

little wilson

Are Ruin and Preservation separate in Sazed or are they fully combined together like can he give one of them, or does he have to give both.

Brandon Sanderson

They are not fully combined. I mean that's not the way this works. He could pull off a piece of one even and make-- stuff like that. That's totally, totally viable. I mean it's basically what happened with the spren. The spren existed before even Honor was destroyed and things like that.

little wilson

So, did the-- my gosh, on Sel-- the Aons-- not the Aons-- the seons did they exist before the Splintering?

Brandon Sanderson

They did not. That's a good question. But they are not the majority of the power. They're just little pieces, they are like the sparks when something gets destroyed. The sparks are not the majority but they are the sparks that were thrown off, if that makes sense?

Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)

 

The nature of Harmony is to balance Ruin and Preservation within him. Ruin's investiture can't be turned into Preservation's investiture. You can't make Harmonium out of pure Ruin's investiture. Even Mists appear now either as either darker Ruin's Mists or lighter Preservation's Mists (it was also mentioned in the books somewhere):

Spoiler

Chaos

Do all three Metallic Arts still exist after the events of the book? Are Allomancy and Hemalurgy slightly degenerated now that Ruin and Preservation are dead, or does Allomancy still draw upon Preservation's power (just held with Sazed now)?

Brandon Sanderson

Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy all work as they once did. However, now they are more directly affected by the presence or absence of the mists, which will slowly return to the world but not be of the extent they once were. (The mists are now an extent of Sazed's power, and where they roam, he is better able to influence things. There will also be two kinds of mists.) Note that in the future, Feruchemy powers will start to fracture and split, creating Feruchemical "Mistings."

Yes, this means that in the future series, it will be possible for a person to have one Allomantic power and one Feruchemical power. It will create for some very interesting mixing of powers.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

17 minutes ago, discord=more_preservation said:

In other words, Atium was Ruin's essence, but there is no Ruin anymore.

That's not true, Ruin is still there, held by Sazed together with Preservation. The power of those Shards are separate. SoS ch 7:

Quote

I hold both Ruin and Preservation, Harmony said

 

12 minutes ago, discord=more_preservation said:

In Era 1, Lerasium didn't seep into the world, only Atium did.

Because Ruin was Splintered a bit by Preservation, who stole that investiture from him and locked it in the cycle. Lerasium leaked into PR as well, but on a much, much smaller scale. It's the nature of Shards and their investiture, that's why there were Lerasium beads in the first place. Investiture from Lerasium once used was locked in spirit webs of Mistborns and passed down generations, increasing Allomantic potential, and Connection to Preservation, of every Scadrian in the north. 

30 minutes ago, discord=more_preservation said:

This is a perfect red herring! What we learn from Kelsier is (1) the powers are in imbalance and (2) that Ruin used to be stronger but isn't anymore.

The last line of that quote is "Ruin had always been stronger." This is the past perfect, not the present perfect. Let's take two sentences:

(1) I have always liked him.

(2) I had always liked him.

In the first sentence, I still like like the person I'm referring to. In the second, I no longer like that person. The first implies something started in the past and is still ongoing. The second implies that something used to be in the past, but is not longer true in the present.

Thanks, but you don't need to explain this to me, I may be a foreigner but I sometimes get the basics right. Read or look at the book again - the entire TLM descriptions are written in past tenses - in the reported speech Present Perfect is turned into Past Perfect. So yes, Harmony is in imbalance and Ruin has always been stronger than Preservation.

 

34 minutes ago, discord=more_preservation said:

This is true, but people generally don't like ruining a note to create discord. They like planned discord, which depends on which notes/chords were previously played.

Please avoid double posting, it's against the rules. You can edit your post and add a quote you want to reply to to your previous post:

Spoiler

At the bottom left of a post you will see a "+" icon, a "Quote" link, and (your posts only) and Edit link. On the bottom right you will see an up arrow.

• The Up Arrow is how you thank people or "like" a post
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Hope that helps.

 

[Immortal Platypus]

53 minutes ago, discord=more_preservation said:

This is true, but people generally don't like ruining a note to create discord. They like planned discord, which depends on which notes/chords were previously played.

it depends on what you mean by discord. discord can be planned, but usually it is not. Usually it is dissonance which is planned, which is a different thing. discord is the sound that comes when someone plays something wrong, whereas dissonance is a sound that doesn't sound natural, but when given harmonies sounds good.

[SwordNimiForPresident]

On 10/9/2023 at 9:40 AM, alder24 said:

Thanks, but you don't need to explain this to me, I may be a foreigner but I sometimes get the basics right. Read or look at the book again - the entire TLM descriptions are written in past tenses - in the reported speech Present Perfect is turned into Past Perfect. So yes, Harmony is in imbalance and Ruin has always been stronger than Preservation.

You dunk harder than Shaq.

[discord=more_preservation]

I like most of what you said! You are most likely right. But, I'm still not 100% convinced  (also sorry for the double post; I didn't know the rule)

Quote

Thanks, but you don't need to explain this to me, I may be a foreigner but I sometimes get the basics right. Read or look at the book again - the entire TLM descriptions are written in past tenses - in the reported speech Present Perfect is turned into Past Perfect. So yes, Harmony is in imbalance and Ruin has always been stronger than Preservation.

I didn't know you were a foreigner. I'm not trying to explain past vs. present. I understand that the novel was written in past tense. The point is that the sentence is in the past perfect tense. The past perfect is used when something happened in the past, before something else. Often, that implies that something is different now. Something like "Until Sazed took up the shards, Ruin had always been stronger." This would strongly imply that after Sazed took up the shards, Ruin is no longer stronger. I compared it to the present perfect because it has a similar construction, and a quick reading of the sentence might make people believe that Ruin is still stronger at the time Kelsier is talking to Sazed (i.e., they'd interpret it like the present perfect).

To further explain, Sanderson chose the past perfect, not another tense (like past simple; "Ruin was always stronger") to mislead us while also giving us a hint. Sanderson wants us to believe that Ruin is stronger, just like he wanted us to believe that Vin was the Hero of Ages. He can't just say "Ruin used to be stronger." Instead, he uses the tense to imply that something has changed: "Ruin had always been stronger." The past perfect is what is important, not simply that it is in the past tense. It could be an ingenious misdirection!

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The nature of Harmony is to balance Ruin and Preservation within him. Ruin's investiture can't be turned into Preservation's investiture. You can't make Harmonium out of pure Ruin's investiture. Even Mists appear now either as either darker Ruin's Mists or lighter Preservation's Mists (it was also mentioned in the books somewhere):

That's not how I interpret the mists. They're not Ruin's mists or Preservation's mists. They're Harmony's mists:

WoB in 2015:

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Seventeen

The Mists Form

In writing this book, I had to nail down a few worldbuilding issues I'd been contemplating even before the first trilogy ended. What would happen to the mists, for instance, once Sazed took over and became Harmony?

The mists, obviously, are a big part of the series. It didn't make sense—either narratively or worldbuilding-wise—to lose them completely. However, they'd been created as an effect of Preservation trying to use his essence to fight against Ruin's destruction of the world. So . . . wouldn't they go away?

I decided that Sazed would still send them. They're part of the nature of the world now. To acknowledge what had happened, they wouldn't come every night any longer. But they would come. They were changed in that they are no longer simply the raw power of Preservation; they're now a part of Harmony—so they no longer pull away from Hemalurgy in the same way as they used to. They still have the odd effect of being able to power Allomancy. (And Feruchemy as well—if one knows how to do it.)

The mists are, in part, the raw power of creation. And when one is favored of Harmony, the mists have a greater effect than they might otherwise have. We'll see more of this later.

The Alloy of Law Annotations (Nov. 30, 2015)

In the same vein, the God Metals aren't strictly Ruin's or Preservation's anymore. The God metals are the "bodies of the gods" and reflect the vessel.
 

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Chapter 13 TLM:

"TenSoon says that the metals are the bodies of the divinities," Steris said. "So-called God Metals were the source of the mists back in anteverdant days..."

"These metals--unlike common ones, don't change states based on temperature, but on other factors..."

"It has taken part of a person's soul, through Hemalurgy and stored it. Like a kind of... battery for life energy."

Marasi shivered visibly. "It's kind of like a corpse, then?"

But how could Atium, Ruin's power, turn into Harmonium without Preservation's power? Well, in the transition state before returning to metallic form, it is "Unkeyed investiture" (possibly in the cognitive realm) unlinked to any Shard, similar to what Moonlight used to turn into an Elantrian. The unkeyed investiture gets converted into Harmonium without the need of Preservation's power. 

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Chapter 40 TLM:

"What is it?" Marasi whispered.

"Concentrated Investiture." Moonlight said. "Unkeyed from any identity. This is an energy source that can power things like your Metallic Arts."

"Those are powered by the gods."

"Exactly," Moonlight said

Lastly, are we sure that the shadow following Harmony is a reflection/representation of Ruin? Leras was described as a silhouette in the mists. The shadow could be the excess power of Preservation, a sort of "cognitive shadow" of the power not being used. There are WoB where he states that investiture itself can gain sentience if not part of a vessel. Sazed prefers Harmony over preservation (as you've said), and the shadow mimics Sazed's movements.  It wants to do what Harmony desires to do but can't always: preserve. Additionally, Wayne doesn't see the shadow as ruinous. He just sees it as "dark" like a shadow:

 

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Chapter 71 TLM

A figure, mostly transparent--stood beside him, a tall bald man. Terris. And another darker fellow stood behind him. Not in the skin tone sense or anything. Like ... this other one was a shadow. It mimicked Harmony as he held out his hands to Wayne.

This feels a lot like when Elend saw the mist spirit. It doesn't seem ominous. It is holding out its hands toward Wayne. It's dark because it looks like a shadow, not because it is bad/scary. It mimics Harmony because it knows what Sazed's natural intent is (to preserve).

Edited October 11, 2023 by discord=more_preservation

[alder24]

17 hours ago, discord=more_preservation said:

I didn't know you were a foreigner. I'm not trying to explain past vs. present. I understand that the novel was written in past tense. The point is that the sentence is in the past perfect tense. The past perfect is used when something happened in the past, before something else. Often, that implies that something is different now. Something like "Until Sazed took up the shards, Ruin had always been stronger." This would strongly imply that after Sazed took up the shards, Ruin is no longer stronger. I compared it to the present perfect because it has a similar construction, and a quick reading of the sentence might make people believe that Ruin is still stronger at the time Kelsier is talking to Sazed (i.e., they'd interpret it like the present perfect).

It's not that it's written in the past tenses, this is reported speech, all of the descriptions in the book are in reported speech - the original sentence was not in past perfect, but it was changed into past perfect because it is reported speech. 

Quote

Reported speech is when we tell someone what another person said. To do this, we can use direct speech or indirect speech.

direct speech: 'I work in a bank,' said Daniel.
indirect speech: Daniel said that he worked in a bank.

In indirect speech, we often use a tense which is 'further back' in the past (e.g. worked) than the tense originally used (e.g. work). This is called 'backshift'. We also may need to change other words that were used, for example pronouns.

When we backshift, present simple changes to past simple, present continuous changes to past continuous and present perfect changes to past perfect.

'I have hurt my leg.'
She said she had hurt her leg.

https://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/grammar/b1-b2-grammar/reported-speech-statements

 

17 hours ago, discord=more_preservation said:

That's not how I interpret the mists. They're not Ruin's mists or Preservation's mists. They're Harmony's mists:

No, they are not. Yes, they are Harmony's body, they belong to Harmony, but they aren't made out of Harmony's investiture, but out of Preservation or Ruin's investiture. There are two types of Mists, not one. One type is of Ruin, the other is of Preservation, both are of Harmony.

17 hours ago, discord=more_preservation said:

In the same vein, the God Metals aren't strictly Ruin's or Preservation's anymore. The God metals are the "bodies of the gods" and reflect the vessel.

No. Atium is of Ruin, but also of Harmony now - but it can't be of Preservation and cannot change into Preservation's investiture. Atium is still pure Ruin's investiture. 

17 hours ago, discord=more_preservation said:

But how could Atium, Ruin's power, turn into Harmonium without Preservation's power?

It can't. You need to add Preservation's power to Atium to form Harmonium, you can't turn Atium into Preservation's power as those are two different things.

17 hours ago, discord=more_preservation said:

Well, in the transition state before returning to metallic form, it is "Unkeyed investiture" (possibly in the cognitive realm) unlinked to any Shard

It is not. It's never unkeyed unless humans do something to investiture to unkey it. Investiture naturally doesn't exist in an unkeyed state, it is always keyed to its Shard. You have no proof for this statement and extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.

And no, it doesn't "exist in the Cognitive Realm". In physical god metal form it transcends all three realms but once used it returns into SR.

17 hours ago, discord=more_preservation said:

 similar to what Moonlight used to turn into an Elantrian.

That was Dor, unkeyed by some unknown means. All investiture is keyed unless someone does something to it to unkey it.

17 hours ago, discord=more_preservation said:

Leras was described as a silhouette in the mists.

A shape made out of Mists is nothing like a dark Shadow. And dark, and darkness are like black color of Ruin. So yes, it is most likely Ruin, and it wasn't the first time when Kelsier saw that.

17 hours ago, discord=more_preservation said:

The shadow could be the excess power of Preservation, a sort of "cognitive shadow" of the power not being used.

You know what a Cognitive Shadow is, don't you? A Cognitive Shadow is a fossil of a dying soul, made out of investiture. That is not a Cognitive Shadow.

Spoiler

WeiryWriter

Could you explain a little more about Cognitive Shadows? When you first mentioned the name and gave the examples of Kelsier and the Shades from Threnody you kind of gave the impression that they were kind of like ghosts. But this past December at the Orem signing you mentioned that the Stormfather and the mist were also Cognitive Shadows. The first makes sense to me, I had an [entire theory about that (although I argued he was specifically Tanavast’s and not Honor’s). The second however really doesn’t make sense to me, unless it was actually the mist spirit that is the shadow and that got missed in the report (it wasn’t verbatim), but even still Preservation is still alive at that point so how can he have a “ghost”? (Unless him sacrificing his mind to form Ruin’s prison counts as “death” in this situation?)

Brandon Sanderson

On the first question, I did not say the mists themselves were a Cognitive Shadow. That must have been a misunderstanding. The Stormfather totally is, though. Cognitive Shadows are basically ghosts, which can take a lot of different forms in the Cosmere, but follow general rules.

WeiryWriter

Is the mist /spirit/ a Cognitive Shadow then?

Brandon Sanderson

The mist spirit is a little more complicated than that. That was actually Leras, kind of. He was in the process of dying. But other things are involved there that, unfortunately, must be RAFOd.

/r/books AMA 2015 (March 12, 2015)

Most of Shardic infinite investiture is not used by its Vessel, and can't be used because a Vessel isn't infinite and can't reach all of that. But this unused power still belongs to them.

Spoiler

Questioner

For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed?

Brandon Sanderson

The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that.

Questioner

What about Ruin and Preservation in Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity...

Brandon Sanderson

So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture, the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

17 hours ago, discord=more_preservation said:

There are WoB where he states that investiture itself can gain sentience if not part of a vessel.

But this power has a Vessel – Sazed. Just because he doesn't use it doesn't mean it isn't his.

17 hours ago, discord=more_preservation said:

Additionally, Wayne doesn't see the shadow as ruinous. He just sees it as "dark" like a shadow:

Nobody sees it as "ruinous", it's just there, it isn't "felt" by anybody. Again, it's not a Mist spirit - it's not made out of Mists, and that spirit was Preservation's mind - Leras. Now Sazed is the mind of Harmony. This shadow is dark. Preservation's Mists resemble ordinary mist, so they are white, not dark or black like Ruin's Mists.  Mist spirit has never looked like a "shadow".

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Fifty-Five

Elend Sees the Mist Spirit

Elend really does have a lot of faith in Vin, even if he doesn't worship her. He ascribes an almost supernatural power to her. And, I can kind of see why he would. In these books, Vin's almost less of a character and more a force. Like Ruin and Preservation, in a way.

Regardless, this chapter is about Elend giving up—then finding his hope again. I bring the mist spirit back here for a final appearance, but I wanted to be careful not to have it give too much information to Elend. Not because I don't want the information itself to get out, but because the mist spirit hasn't been a presence in this book, and so I haven't foreshadowed it enough. Therefore, if it simply showed up and gave a bunch of answers, I think that would feel cheap to the reader.

The mist spirit is, as the next epigraph explains, the remnants of Preservation's mind. I don't delve into it too much in this book, even the epigraphs, but Preservation's consciousness is indeed separate from his power. However, his consciousness itself has a limited power. And that is what he used to bind Ruin.

That did not weaken his power, which still protects the world. Instead, it cost him his mind, leaving behind only a faint shadow—like the mists' memory of Preservation, far removed from what he had once been.

That consciousness attached to Preservation—like the one attached to Ruin—is a part of Adonalsium, which will eventually be explained. Suffice it to say that in a pinch, Preservation could draw upon the power of his own mind and use it to imprison Ruin. This was why he was able to pull of the trick, as Ruin wasn't expecting it. He might have anticipated an attack using Preservation's power, but not his mind—not knowing what burning his own mind would do.

That is why Preservation's cage captured Ruin's own mind, but not his power.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Jan. 19, 2010)

 

17 hours ago, discord=more_preservation said:

This feels a lot like when Elend saw the mist spirit. It doesn't seem ominous. It is holding out its hands toward Wayne. It's dark because it looks like a shadow, not because it is bad/scary. It mimics Harmony because it knows what Sazed's natural intent is (to preserve).

It's the opposite, it looks like a shadow because it's dark. 

Ruin doesn't mean bad and scary... It's just a force of nature, entropy. It isn't evil. No Shard is. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Do you believe that Preservation is inherently good and that Ruin is inherently evil?

Brandon Sanderson

No, good question! I would say no. I don't think any of the Shards are inherently good or inherently evil. I think that Ruin can be (and was for many years) in the cosmere presented as the necessary force of progress, right? Things need to decay in order for life to exist. And I think entropy is just a necessary aspect of life. And Ruin doesn't have to be evil; but Ruin is hard to control. And Odium is even harder to control. And because of that, there is a higher likelihood that Ruin or Odium are going to, if left unchecked, be very dangeorus.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 23, 2021)

 

[Just a Silvereye]

Ok, I'll throw in my two cents.

On 04/10/2023 at 9:43 PM, alder24 said:

 

Based on that I see two possibilities:

• Sazed's will will prevail and he will keep pushing Ruin into submission and fully embrace Discord favoring Preservation. This could also mean that Sazed is already Discord as that's precisely what he is doing currently. He just doesn't want to admit it or hasn't realized it yet.
• Ruin's power will overwhelm Sazed, maybe even change his personality a bit (holding Shardic power does that) and Discord will favor Ruin.

I think the first one has already happened from the end of Era 1. Because Ruin and Preservation have never been balanced. Per the quote above:

Quote

Ruin had always been stronger

Preservation gave away part of his power to create humans. (Or more exactly, both Shards gave some power but Preservation gave more.) That power is "stuck" permanently in humans, which created an imbalance in Ruin's favour. The dispersion of most of Ruin's power in Era 1 (by Elend, but also a bit Kelsier) overcompensated, and so Preservation regained an upper hand, and was dominant in Harmony for 300 years. But now, as Ruin's power comes back, it switches the balance back to the other side. 

In short, Harmony used to have more Preservation than Ruin in it. It is just no longer the case.

As of the end of Era 2, Sazed (the Vessel, who hasn't been changed enough yet to the Intent near-caricatured like Tanavast, Leras, or Ati) is still resisting this change, but at the same time realizing the shortcomings of his plan (the whole "I made your life too easy in the Basin vs the South" thing); this reckoning could have been accelerated by ruinous influence.

 

 

Now on @discord=more_preservation's music analogy (can't ping you for some reason):

On 04/10/2023 at 5:20 PM, discord=more_preservation said:

If there's anything we've learned from the Rhythm of War, it's that Brandon Sanderson uses music to help us understand investiture. The right musical harmonies can be used to combine stormlight and voidlight for example. Harmony, meaning Sazed, is currently in harmony, when using music as a metaphor. But how could there be discord (i.e., something not in harmony)? Well, there are a couple ways. One way would be to play sort of random notes that aren't octaves, perfect fifths etc. That would be something like "ruining" the music. People would hate that. Another way, however, is to keep playing a note even as the rest of the music moves on. You're "preserving" a note that doesn't harmonize with new chords. This creates discord. People LOVE discord in music, especially when it is mixed with harmony. You're not ruining the music, but making it better. Hence the " His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it." 

If this is true (which it might very well be imo) then wouldn't you get Harmony when there is balance, and Discord when that balance is broken? To get an harmony, a note must last exactly as long as it has to to fill its purpose in the grand scheme of things (the melody played), and then go away. This sound like a pretty good middle ground between "Everything must die at some point" and "Things should stay as they are". 

And it also means that Harmony is already Discord, and has been since day 1. Sazed just does not realizes (yet). We know from the Odium/Passion thing that the name a Shard gives itself can not match the Intent:

Quote

yulerule

So, we have Shard names; Ruin, Preservation, Harmony, Cultivation, Honor, Ambition, Autonomy, Devotion, Dominion. Those are pretty much regular English words. And then we have Odium. That's a little more Latinate. It's not-- It doesn't fit the pattern.

Brandon Sanderson

So I don't really look as something as Latinate or Germanic, when I'm picking the names usually.

yulerule

But this one is more. Even in Devotion or Dominion, their more regular English. Why?

Brandon Sanderson

I just look for the thing that feels right. Remember, all these words are in translation. When you read the book, they were a word in the original language of the book, that then we have translated to English. And so, don't look to much about what's Greek, what's Latin, what's Germanic. I will mix those a lot. And that's just because I'm looking for the word that has right resonance in English, that I'm writing in. You might even find Latin and Greek mixes in some of my stuff. And that's not done to be like, "Oh, you should be paying [attention]." Usually, I'm just looking for a flavor.

yulerule

So it's the flavor-- Because I actually did have it - they're all translations, why not <Hatred instead of Odium?>

Brandon Sanderson

Because Odium is cooler. It just sounds cooler. There is no answer other than "I like the word better."

yulerule

Is there any connection with the thought that it's not Hatred? Because in Oathbringer, he says he's Passion?

Brandon Sanderson

He would claim that he's Passion and not Odium. But that is part of why I chose it. Hatred felt too on-the-nose, because there is quite arguably that step toward just being all Passion, and that's what he claims that he is.

yulerule

His own perception of himself, can perception, in the cosmere, can that influence?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it can influence.

yulerule

So the Shard's intent can--

Brandon Sanderson

Can be influenced by their perception and the holder's, yes.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)

(WoB found by @alder24 in this topic, thanks a lot because it's reading the two threads one after another that gave me that idea)

So yeah, Discord can indeed be more Preservation. And I think it is already, but not for much longer.

 

The "They shall love him for it" can mean many things, but my interpretation is that Sazed accepting that he is Discord (though in a different way than before) will have some consequences that will be welcomed by the (Northern?) Scadrian population. This is incredibly vague I know   Maybe they have also come to the conclusion that their lives were too easy in the Basin, after seeing the Southern Scadrians, and would welcome a... direction change. Given what Brandon said about "cold war" in MBE3 we will probably see some antagonistic relations between North and South.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Just a Silvereye
I hit send too early

[alder24]

39 minutes ago, Just a Silvereye said:

I think the first one has already happened from the end of Era 1. Because Ruin and Preservation have never been balanced. Per the quote above:

Quote

Ruin had always been stronger

Preservation gave away part of his power to create humans. (Or more exactly, both Shards gave some power but Preservation gave more.) That power is "stuck" permanently in humans, which created an imbalance in Ruin's favour. The dispersion of most of Ruin's power in Era 1 (by Elend, but also a bit Kelsier) overcompensated, and so Preservation regained an upper hand, and was dominant in Harmony for 300 years. But now, as Ruin's power comes back, it switches the balance back to the other side. 

In short, Harmony used to have more Preservation than Ruin in it. It is just no longer the case.

As of the end of Era 2, Sazed (the Vessel, who hasn't been changed enough yet to the Intent near-caricatured like Tanavast, Leras, or Ati) is still resisting this change, but at the same time realizing the shortcomings of his plan (the whole "I made your life too easy in the Basin vs the South" thing); this reckoning could have been accelerated by ruinous influence.

[...]

And it also means that Harmony is already Discord, and has been since day 1. Sazed just does not realizes (yet). We know from the Odium/Passion thing that the name a Shard gives itself can not match the Intent:

Interesting. The way you said it makes it sounds like Harmony was never Harmony, he was always Discord, but first Preservation-Discord, and how he's turning into Ruin-Discord. Unlikely, at least at the very beginning Sazed was true Harmony because he chose the name that felt right to him. But later he might have slowly turned into Discord without realizing it. So it's a mix of both possibilities I've proposed, interesting.

Spoiler

Argent

When Sazed picked up the Shards of Preservation and Ruin, did he actively choose to be known as Harmony (instead of, for example, Balance, or Equilibrium, or Stability), or is there some Cosmeric law that says Preservation + Ruin = Harmony?

Brandon Sanderson

He chose the name, but in part because it FELT right to him.

Argent

Is this similar to how a Shard's "personality" overwrites the Shardholder's over time?

Brandon Sanderson

Similar, yes.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 17, 2015)

 

46 minutes ago, Just a Silvereye said:

The "They shall love him for it" can mean many things, but my interpretation is that Sazed accepting that he is Discord (though in a different way than before) will have some consequences that will be welcomed by the (Northern?) Scadrian population. This is incredibly vague I know   Maybe they have also come to the conclusion that their lives were too easy in the Basin, after seeing the Southern Scadrians, and would welcome a... direction change.

Yes, I agree. Discord might not be stopped by inability to act, as by definition he doesn't have to be in balance - Discord might be able to directly act on Scadrial and maybe even side with Kelsier and drive Scadrian technological progress forward much faster - thus "they shall love him for it". But I expect Sazed to do this by the end of Era 3, as that leaves the whole Era to explore the idea of conflict within Sazed refusing to embrace Discord before settling and accepting the change.