More Iron Confusion

[Firesong she/her]

This book only made me more confused over what Iron Feruchemy is supposed to do. 

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“A little bit?” Zellion growled, shifting his stance, though even that took an uncomfortable amount of effort. “It’s one of those Scadrian weight devices, isn’t it? That’s what you locked onto my ankle?” He’d seen people wear them on low-gravity planets to move more naturally. Here, though, it had been turned up an extreme amount—making his entire body think it was working under three or four times the standard gravity.

When this doesn't fit with what we see of it in other books, where it acts as a change in mass, not increasing falling rate and actively increasing things like momentum, which rely on mass, not weight. And also:

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Questioner

Does Iron store mass or weight?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. The thing is it really does involve mass, but I’m breaking some physics rules, basically. I have to break a number of physics rules in order to make Magic work in the first place. Those whole laws of Thermodynamics, I’m like “You are my bane!” (laughter) But I try to work within the framework, and I have reasonings built up for myself, and some of them have to be kind of arbitrary. But the thing is, it does store mass if you look at how it interacts, but when a Feruchemist punches someone, you’re not having a mass transference of a 1000 pounds transferring the mass into someone else.

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Seonid

There's a researcher who talks to Wax, asking him about whether he's changing his mass of whether he's changing whether the planet perceives him-- affecting his gravity.

Brandon Sanderson

Right. It's more a re-- Defining something I didn't pin down strongly enough. I wouldn't call it a retcon because it's something that nobody really did until Wax, really, in the series. The only one really capable of doing that in the original trilogy would have been the Lord Ruler, maybe some of the Inquisitors, but we don't have viewpoints from them. So I wouldn't call it a retcon I would just say it’s something that didn't come up in the first series that now I have to make sure is clear.

Seonid

So is it Higgs field stuff going on?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Mmhmm.

Seonid

My idea was right.

Brandon Sanderson

Mmhmm.

Like, Brandon calls it mass a lot. And actively says it isn't gravity. But this book calls it an increase in weight and gravity, and it comes from a more knowledgeable source. But it actively contradicts how we see it work, and how Brandon has personally described it when asked. 

So, I am deeply confused. Is Sig just wrong? Is this a special alloy or something that effects gravity but not mass (I actually quite like that headcanon, it does make sense to me.*)? 

I feel we really need to ask him about it again at Dragonsteel (this is me asking anyone going to ask, as I can't do it myself). As I am very confused about it as it is calling it weight, but if it follows conservation of momentum the way it does, as that functions via mass, not weight and gravity. 

* Expanding on this. Some sort of Iron-Atium alloy maybe? As it in general doesn't seem to work like a normal Ironmind. I don't remember Wax ever finding himself overly sluggish or unable to move when he increases his mass, as

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Well, again, not really—as when his weight increases, his strength and ability to uphold that weight increase as well. Beyond that, Wax can't make himself so light that he has no weight at all.

They gain the strength to withstand the increase. But we don't see that happen with Sigzil. It was definitely not normal Iron Feruchemy now that I think about it. From a Doylist perspective it would also make sense, as Sigzil explained the weight device far more than he did other things that we would already know and understand. It seems like Brandon was actively trying to point towards it being something new. Perhaps. Even the fact that he spoke about Steelminds, but called this a "weight device" without mentioning Ironminds, also could have been pointing us towards that. 

Hmmm... yeah, I am convinced, actually. It is not normal iron feruchemy. 

[therunner he/him]

6 hours ago, Firesong said:

This book only made me more confused over what Iron Feruchemy is supposed to do. 

When this doesn't fit with what we see of it in other books, where it acts as a change in mass, not increasing falling rate and actively increasing things like momentum, which rely on mass, not weight. And also:

Yeah, this book kinda complicated F-Iron again.
But feeling increase in gravity makes sense, if you have more mass you will be more attracted to given planet, e.g. you will feel heavier.

This won't affect falling acceleration or rate, as those are independent of mass (if you can neglect air resistance). So this part still makes sense with regular F-Iron.

6 hours ago, Firesong said:

* Expanding on this. Some sort of Iron-Atium alloy maybe? As it in general doesn't seem to work like a normal Ironmind. I don't remember Wax ever finding himself overly sluggish or unable to move when he increases his mass, as

They gain the strength to withstand the increase. But we don't see that happen with Sigzil. It was definitely not normal Iron Feruchemy now that I think about it. From a Doylist perspective it would also make sense, as Sigzil explained the weight device far more than he did other things that we would already know and understand. It seems like Brandon was actively trying to point towards it being something new.

Yeah,  this is the problematic part.

But issue is larger, because in Era 1, Sazed had to tap F-Pewter to be able to move after tapping F-Iron, and specifically mentioned it. So in Era 1 F-Iron didn't increase strength to handle the larger mass, only in Era 2 did that start to happen (IRL I think it is because Brandon realized that without that side-effect F-Iron is pretty much useless power).

But this device acts like Era 1 F-Iron.

6 hours ago, Firesong said:

Even the fact that he spoke about Steelminds, but called this a "weight device" without mentioning Ironminds, also could have been pointing us towards that. 

Hmmm... yeah, I am convinced, actually. It is not normal iron feruchemy. 

But yeah, the fact that Brandon actively avoided calling it Ironmind suggests this is something a bit more involved.

6 hours ago, Firesong said:

So, I am deeply confused. Is Sig just wrong? Is this a special alloy or something that effects gravity but not mass (I actually quite like that headcanon, it does make sense to me.*)?

* Expanding on this. Some sort of Iron-Atium alloy maybe? As it in general doesn't seem to work like a normal Ironmind. I don't remember Wax ever finding himself overly sluggish or unable to move when he increases his mass, as

So, it could be only Godmetal + Iron alloy, as the only regular alloy of Iron that is viable is Steel, and we know what that does.

It might be Iron-Atium alloy, but frankly that feels like a waste of Atium, especially since Atium can be burned by anyone, and A-Electrum soldiers with Atium-Electrum alloy would be gigantic advantage.

[Firesong she/her]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

So, it could be only Godmetal + Iron alloy, as the only regular alloy of Iron that is viable is Steel, and we know what that does.

It might be Iron-Atium alloy, but frankly that feels like a waste of Atium, especially since Atium can be burned by anyone, and A-Electrum soldiers with Atium-Electrum alloy would be gigantic advantage.

On this, we don't know how much technology and access to atium has changed. The fact Brandon says Era 3 will begin to touch on God Metal Alloys more suggests that they will become more common over time. 

Also, it isn't too much of a waste, as Sig said, it is made to make it easier to exist on planets with lower gravity, which would actually be extremely useful. 

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

On this, we don't know how much technology and access to atium has changed. The fact Brandon says Era 3 will begin to touch on God Metal Alloys more suggests that they will become more common over time.

True. BTW do you have the WoB where Brandon mentioned getting into God Metal Alloys in Era 3? I cannot find it and would like more detail (if there is any).

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

Also, it isn't too much of a waste, as Sig said, it is made to make it easier to exist on planets with lower gravity, which would actually be extremely useful. 

It kinda is, you can achieve the same effect with weighted shoes.
Far cheaper option than using God Metal.

[Firesong she/her]

Just now, therunner said:

True. BTW do you have the WoB where Brandon mentioned getting into God Metal Alloys in Era 3? I cannot find it and would like more detail (if there is any).

It kinda is, you can achieve the same effect with weighted shoes.
Far cheaper option than using God Metal.

I am having trouble finding it as well, but I could have sworn he did say it. Huh. 

[therunner he/him]

23 minutes ago, Firesong said:

I am having trouble finding it as well, but I could have sworn he did say it. Huh. 

There can be lag between Arcanum, and actual events. So perhaps he said it in some recording that was not fully transcribed yet.

 

[Firesong she/her]

1 minute ago, therunner said:

There can be lag between Arcanum, and actual events. So perhaps he said it in some recording that was not fully transcribed yet.

 

No, no, it is an older one. I just forgot the exact words so it can be hard to find. 

[therunner he/him]

2 minutes ago, Firesong said:

No, no, it is an older one. I just forgot the exact words so it can be hard to find. 

Could it be this one?
 

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classicalkhlennium

A while ago I was talking with my friend about the presence of isotopes in Mistborn, and we thought surely the metals have ions and isotopes like they do in the real world, otherwise how else would they exist on an atomic level? We wondered if there were radioactive isotopes on Scadrial or even in the Cosmere as a whole, else they would never discover nuclear weaponry and fuels. None of the non-god metals in Mistborn have radioactive components, but that isn't to say that radioactive metals don't exist in the cosmere. Radioactive elements such as uranium (a necessary discovery for the 3rd and 4th Eras of Mistborn if they want to have long term fuel sources/weapons) and radium (necessary discovery in the field of medicine) seem necessary to the advancement of civilization. This also raises the question of where would the god metals, lerasium, atium, and harmonium, fit on the Periodic Table, and would all of their isotopes be stable, would they perhaps have radioactive isotopes that can somehow affect their Allomantic properties?

Brandon Sanderson

These are things we'll start answering in the modern day Mistborn novels, so RAFO for now.

General Reddit 2019 (Nov. 18, 2019)

Though this seems more in line of general atomic properties and their relevance to Metallic Arts will be addressed, not necessarily about alloys.

[Firesong she/her]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Could it be this one?
 

Though this seems more in line of general atomic properties and their relevance to Metallic Arts will be addressed, not necessarily about alloys.

Probably that one, yeah. 

We did get one answer about radioactive things in TSM. Where they confirmed that axons do indeed have nuclear properties. 

I do hope he doesn't use the Bohr model, and instead uses the Quantum Model. As the Bohr model is just flat out incorrect. 

[drunkenbotanist]

I noticed the same thing but interpreted the difference as it was because it was mechanical allomancy. It is semi -alive, and because of that either it's an issue of intent where that is what it is designed to do, and/or Sigzil doesn't get the benefits of feruchemy that help you withstand the effects with this type of device because the feruchemy isn't coming from him.

[Treamayne]

On 10/2/2023 at 8:32 PM, Firesong said:

Like, Brandon calls it mass a lot. And actively says it isn't gravity. But this book calls it an increase in weight and gravity, and it comes from a more knowledgeable source. But it actively contradicts how we see it work, and how Brandon has personally described it when asked.

I feel like you are possibly overthinking this a bit. Unreliable narrators are a thing - and from Nomad's Perspective of experience with both orders utilizing the surge of Gravitation, I took this passage as him trying to interpret what he feels based on his experience. Arcanist or not, if he hasn't specifically studied mass vs. gravity then he would mentally interpret "feeling heavy" with "lashing down while standing."

And I would not put a ton if weight (pun intended) on Wax's experiences as well - since a cursory search did not find an example where:

1. Wax Tapped weight
2. While standing
3. and still trying to fight

Wax almost exclusively stored weight while moving and fighting, or tapped weight while in a steelpush, or tapped weight while falling, or was stationary. I'll do a more thorough search when I have some time, but feel free to cite an example of Wax fighting on the ground while tapping weight, if you have an example handy. Otherwise, the only known examples I can find are Sazed at the Gates and Sazed breaking out of teh Kandra jail - both of which emphasize that Tapping iron makes fighting difficult without other mitigating factors.

HoA Ch 78:

Spoiler

“This isn’t much of a rescue.”

“Oh, I don’t know,” Sazed said with a smile, the Fifths surrounding them. “You needn’t give up so quickly, I think.”

The Fifths charged, and Sazed tapped iron from the grate beneath his bare feet. Immediately, his body grew several times heavier than normal, and he grabbed a kandra guard by the arms.

Then fell on him.

Sazed always said he wasn’t a warrior. However, the number of times he’d said that, then been forced to fight anyway, made him think he was losing that excuse. The truth was, he’d been in far more battles over the last few years than he felt he had any right to have survived.

Either way, he knew some rudimentary moves—and, with both Feruchemy and surprise to aid him, that was about all he needed. Tapping weight increased the density of his body and of his bones, keeping him from damaging himself as he collapsed on top of the soldier. Sazed felt a satisfying crack as they hit the grate, Sazed’s greatly increased weight crushing the kandra guard’s bones. They used stone True Bodies, but even that wasn’t enough.

He stopped filling his ironmind, regaining normal weight, then reached with a blurring speed to pick up the hammer of the fallen soldier. He didn’t have enhanced strength, but he had speed. He slammed the hammer down on a kandra shoulder, growing heavier to add to the momentum of his blow.

So, basically Sazed had to use the weight to simply fall on the Fifth - and specifically did not tap Steel until he had released his Ironmind - because Speed without Strength would not help at that weight. . .

[+robardin he/him]

The incurring of weight without the corresponding "strength to move at a normal speed" isn't what struck me as the most surprising thing about the obviously Feruchemy based mechanism of the Scadrian manacle.

After all, he WAS able to stand up after being knocked down while wearing it, time and again; nothing was ever said before (I don't think) about tapping an ironmind for weight allowing for "normal speed of movement", only that one would still have the strength "to stand" (like when Sazed massively tapped his ironmind to hold fast a gate at Elendel against all the koloss straining to knock it down from the other side).

No, the big head-scratcher is that such a metalmind was able to "push" weight onto Nomad instead of giving him a reservoir of weight to tap (with Intent). And even without him knowing what it was (a necessary component to using an unsealed metalmind as of Wax and Wayne).

AFAIK, the only Investiture we've seen so far that could be "pushed" onto an unsuspecting or unwilling target is Breath, as in Warbreaker. Unless you count Marsh's forced conversion to being an Inquisitor, I suppose.

And even then, what was given in that way was Investiture that granted abilities, not an attribute or effect.

I wonder what other Feruchemical attributes so pushed might be considered an unwelcome burden? A tinmind that blinded or stunned someone with light or sound sensitivity?

Could you make a similar device to enable, and also to force someone to put up a very narrow cadmium slo-time bubble around themselves as a kind of imprisonment? LOL. I guess that'd have to come with some sneaky or forced pre-ingestion of cadmium.

[therunner he/him]

17 hours ago, robardin said:

No, the big head-scratcher is that such a metalmind was able to "push" weight onto Nomad instead of giving him a reservoir of weight to tap (with Intent). And even without him knowing what it was (a necessary component to using an unsealed metalmind as of Wax and Wayne).

That is also a good catch, completely missed that.

Maybe it works along similar lines of what Ishar did to Radiants in RoW? There he Connected them to the ground, in such a way that their body saw ground as part of them, and as a result Stormlight leeched into ground.

In this case, perhaps the Medallion Connects to wearer in such a way that the bracer part is seen as part of the body, and then the Medallion forces the bracers to tap Weight?
There is precedent for non-living structures being forced to store at the very least, Malwish ships in Era 2. (if I remember right)

[drunkenbotanist]

On 10/5/2023 at 9:40 AM, robardin said:

The incurring of weight without the corresponding "strength to move at a normal speed" isn't what struck me as the most surprising thing about the obviously Feruchemy based mechanism of the Scadrian manacle.

After all, he WAS able to stand up after being knocked down while wearing it, time and again; nothing was ever said before (I don't think) about tapping an ironmind for weight allowing for "normal speed of movement", only that one would still have the strength "to stand" (like when Sazed massively tapped his ironmind to hold fast a gate at Elendel against all the koloss straining to knock it down from the other side).

No, the big head-scratcher is that such a metalmind was able to "push" weight onto Nomad instead of giving him a reservoir of weight to tap (with Intent). And even without him knowing what it was (a necessary component to using an unsealed metalmind as of Wax and Wayne).

AFAIK, the only Investiture we've seen so far that could be "pushed" onto an unsuspecting or unwilling target is Breath, as in Warbreaker. Unless you count Marsh's forced conversion to being an Inquisitor, I suppose.

And even then, what was given in that way was Investiture that granted abilities, not an attribute or effect.

I wonder what other Feruchemical attributes so pushed might be considered an unwelcome burden? A tinmind that blinded or stunned someone with light or sound sensitivity?

Could you make a similar device to enable, and also to force someone to put up a very narrow cadmium slo-time bubble around themselves as a kind of imprisonment? LOL. I guess that'd have to come with some sneaky or forced pre-ingestion of cadmium.

This exactly

 

A goldmind like this creating awful vampire-like devices is pretty scary.

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

One thought I had is that the manacle had some kind of Allomantic property - ie, Ironpulling. It was actively pulling Nomad towards the ground, maybe working in conjunction with it's Feruchemical property. How exactly that works, I'm not sure, but it sounds somewhat plausible I feel. 

[Wandering Shade]

On 10/3/2023 at 9:03 AM, therunner said:

It kinda is, you can achieve the same effect with weighted shoes.
Far cheaper option than using God Metal.

Maybe its a fancy Ironmind that doesn't increase your own personal mass but instead your clothing and the air around you. That would make you feel heavier without any strength increase.

[Elite01]

Just a stab in the dark but could it have felt different because it was being forced upon him and was somehow "alien" to his soul or something? Other times we see weight being used it is an ability they already have or a medallion where they are at least choosing to manipulate their weight. Maybe without the choice or intent to be heavier, his soul resists the change which is what causes the feeling?

I still think an iron-atium alloy is a more likely theory.