Dawnshards (intents, torments and shards)

[Gavtyven he/him]

So we know that Rysn's dawnshard is Change. In this book we find out more about Hoid and Sigzil's dawnshard, which seems to be Create or something like Preserve/Protect (as it is opposed to the idea of destruction and violence). What could be Rysn's Torment? And what shards could fit under each Dawnshard, as it is certainly implied at times that the intents of shards and dawnshards are related

[therunner he/him]

Interesting question.

Rysn's Dawnshard is Change specifically, positive Change (demand things be better). So Torment would probably be that she cannot do things that she would perceive as leading to negative change in things. Which in theory could be as much as inability to start a fire, as it can be argued to be worsening wood into charcoal (wood has more uses than coal).

[TheoreticalMagic]

Well this is still my take on the Dawnshards.....I think they're the arcane equivalent of the Unified Field Theory and act as supernatural equivalents to electromagnetism, gravity and strong and weak nuclear force: 

So I'm still going with my belief that the Dawnshards are some approximation of Exist (which I think was Nomad's), Weigh, Change and Move. So the Torment attached to the Exist Dawnshard is being unable to plot harm, or a threat to someone's Existence....and the corresponding Torment for the Change Dawnshard would be a kind of supernatural aversion to stagnancy. A constant drive to continuously engage in change or act as its agent. Its holders and former holders would lock up when they tried to dig their heels in and act according to recurring/established patterns of behavior instead of trying new things. Locking up if they tried to react in the exact same way they have previously. An inability to respond to familiar stimuli or events in tested and proven ways, instead being driven to constantly find new solutions.

(The Torment for the Weigh Dawnshard would be locking up when trying to act with too little thought or intent....forcing those Dawnshard wielders to slow down and deliberate on their actions and impact. Kneejerk reactions would be out....their Torment literally forces them to slow down and think things through - much like how Nomad reflects on how his Torment actually ended up preparing/training him to fight the Cinder King even when the deck had been stacked against him, thinking through unorthodox ways to win....the Torments can actually have or result in positive traits for a Dawnshard wielder. Someone used to being too impulsive could benefit from a Torment that supernaturally mandates they take a beat to weigh the full significance of events or potential fallout.

And then the Torment for the Move Dawnshard - which I classify as having a lot to do with forward momentum through time, the march of moments rather than just physically moving things - would be those wielders would be forced to constantly be on the move. In effect, it would be similar to how Nomad constantly skips from place to place in order to stay one step ahead of the Night Brigade, but in these particular holders' cases, its because their Torment won't let them stop and stay in one place for too long. A constant drive to keep moving.....it doesn't mean they can never stand in place, that they can't stay in one place long enough to sleep, its more like it won't let them put down roots, they do the opposite of locking up and are sort of jolted back into forward motion whenever they try and make plans to stay somewhere for the sake of STAYING there).

Edited October 2, 2023 by TheoreticalMagic

[Lightspen of the Glass Sea she/her]

I've always thought Survive could be a dawnshard. This would make sense to be the one Hoid and Sig held.

Kelsier mentions during secret history that he heard a voice telling him to Survive when he was in the pits, in a way that reminded me of the voice telling Dalinar to Unite Them.

This got me thinking: What if dawnshards can speak to people through the spiritual realm when they need to be nudged in the direction of the dawnshard's intent? What if there are dawnshards whose intent aligns with Survive and Unite?

Just an interesting thought that I'd be interested to see what others think of.

[Tbug33]

Not much theorizing, but I must say it is a bit maddening (in a good way, mostly) that Brandon didn't say which Dawnshard he held - I really thought that reveal would be part of the ending of this book along with all the revelations at the end! I find it a tad distracting as a reader as well-this isn't a story being told by Hoid (as with Tress or Yumi) where the "speaker" has carefully chosen his words, it's a stream of consciousness from Sigzil's perspective. It seems awkward that he would never think specifically about which Dawnshard he once held. Obviously Brandon wants to keep this under wraps for now and on the edge of our seats.

[+robardin he/him]

1 hour ago, Tbug33 said:

Not much theorizing, but I must say it is a bit maddening (in a good way, mostly) that Brandon didn't say which Dawnshard he held - I really thought that reveal would be part of the ending of this book along with all the revelations at the end! I find it a tad distracting as a reader as well-this isn't a story being told by Hoid (as with Tress or Yumi) where the "speaker" has carefully chosen his words, it's a stream of consciousness from Sigzil's perspective. It seems awkward that he would never think specifically about which Dawnshard he once held. Obviously Brandon wants to keep this under wraps for now and on the edge of our seats.

But why would he? In a first person POV, unless he'd held more than one Dawnshard or had some kind of choice in the matter ("which one do you want?"), of course to him it'd be THE Dawnshard (which is indeed how he thinks of it), given the way taking it up completely changed his life.

We can infer it's the same Dawnshard that Hoid used to have, but whether he received it directly from Hoid or not is unknown - because there were WoBs already that Hoid himself no longer bore a Dawnshard in SA1-5, weren't there? That Hoid "used to" have/be a Dawnshard?

[NameIess]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

But why would he? In a first person POV, unless he'd held more than one Dawnshard or had some kind of choice in the matter ("which one do you want?"), of course to him it'd be THE Dawnshard (which is indeed how he thinks of it), given the way taking it up completely changed his life.

We can infer it's the same Dawnshard that Hoid used to have, but whether he received it directly from Hoid or not is unknown - because there were WoBs already that Hoid himself no longer bore a Dawnshard in SA1-5, weren't there? That Hoid "used to" have/be a Dawnshard?

Closest I can find to a confirmation that Hoid doesn't hold a Dawnshard is this WoB:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid was a Dawnshard at some point in the deep past, and the reason he (even still) cannot physically harm people, or even eat meat, is related to the changes this made to his spirit. (Consider this the same fundamental principle as savanthood.) The few of you who have read Dragonsteel know that him being a Dawnshard was also the source of his immortality in that book, though the terms were different back then. (The word Dawnshard was never mentioned, for example--though the primary story of Dragonsteel (which is no longer canon) was about several people who unwittingly become Dawnshards.)

And a preemptive RAFO to all questions on this point.

Dawnshard Annotations (Nov. 6, 2020)

And Brandon doesn't say that Hoid isn't still a Dawnshard, just that he used to be one.

Whether or not Hoid has a Dawnshard as of SA4, it's safe to assume that as of SP4, Hoid does hold a Dawnshard. Sigzil mentions that if he's captured, it will lead the Night Brigade to Hoid.

[Lightspen of the Glass Sea she/her]

3 minutes ago, Nameless* said:

Whether or not Hoid has a Dawnshard as of SA4, it's safe to assume that as of SP4, Hoid does hold a Dawnshard. Sigzil mentions that if he's captured, it will lead the Night Brigade to Hoid.

That does seem to imply that Sigzil gave the dawnshard to Hoid. Hoid may have given it up since, to keep the trail long and stay a few steps ahead of the Night Brigade, but I do think he held it again at least temporarily.

[TheoreticalMagic]

To be fair, Sigzil describes himself as a link in the chain to the Dawnshard.....and chains can run in more than one direction. We know that Hoid had the Dawnshard PRIOR to Sigzil, so he's also a link in the same chain....but not necessarily the link in the direction Sigzil passed the Dawnshard to. So it could be that getting ahold of Sigzil could lead the Night Brigade to both the Dawnshard AND Hoid....but by following the links in the chain from Sigzil....in two separate directions.

Edited October 2, 2023 by TheoreticalMagic

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 2.10.2023 at 9:40 AM, Gavtyven said:

So we know that Rysn's dawnshard is Change. In this book we find out more about Hoid and Sigzil's dawnshard, which seems to be Create or something like Preserve/Protect (as it is opposed to the idea of destruction and violence). What could be Rysn's Torment? And what shards could fit under each Dawnshard, as it is certainly implied at times that the intents of shards and dawnshards are related

I am afraid the Torment is a consequence of the loss of the Dawnshard, not applying while holding it. Otherwise the Dawnshard could not have been used as a weapon to kill Adonalsium. So she is not undergoing a Torment so far.

[GudThymes he/him]

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid the Torment is a consequence of the loss of the Dawnshard, not applying while holding it. Otherwise the Dawnshard could not have been used as a weapon to kill Adonalsium. So she is not undergoing a Torment so far.

Is that the case though? Wasn't the whole point of Nomad's experiments with the sunhearts and Elegy to test siphoning off his connection to the Dawnshard and putting it in a container so that he doesn't have the Torment?

I would have to look again at the exact phrasing but I thought it explicitly stated that the torment was "damage" from it going into him not out. Just like how Elegy lost her memories when the cinderheart went in. 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid the Torment is a consequence of the loss of the Dawnshard, not applying while holding it. Otherwise the Dawnshard could not have been used as a weapon to kill Adonalsium. So she is not undergoing a Torment so far.

There are some WOBs about the torments and how they relate to the Dawnshards. To me it reads as though holding one (whether you lose it or not) will come with a torment.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Let's talk about the Torment for a second. Hoid would not call what has happened to him a Torment. Hoid, by holding a Dawnshard, was made permanently unable to cause physical harm to other beings. Eating meat makes him nauseous (if he is somehow able to eat it, and a lot of the times he just can't). That is because of the nature of the Dawnshard that he held actively warping and changing his spirit. He would not name it this. Nomad has named what has happened to him, a Torment. This is not a term that you can universally apply as a magical aspect of something. This is Sigzil saying "this terrible thing happened to me". And indeed what is happening to Sigzil is on a level beyond what happened to Hoid. So therefore perhaps other arcanists would say, "Yes, these are an aspect of holding a Dawnshard and Torment is the right way", but that word is loaded. That word has meaning, and someone is naming it this. You are not gonna run into a large set of people- there are only four Dawnshards- and you're not gonna run into a large set of people that have held one, so there may be no consensus even in-world to what these are called, and if they are Torment or blessings or what they are. Holding a Dawnshard will warp your soul. It's so much Investiture, it is so powerful, that you cannot hold one even briefly without it having a permanent effect upon you. 

Secret Project #4 Reveal and Livestream (March 29, 2022)

I also think this alludes to Rysn starting to have the effects of a Torment but in a very subtle and non-obvious way

Quote

8giraffe8

Other than Hoid and Sigzil, have we witnessed "on screen" a character actively under the effects of a Torment in your other published works so far?

Brandon Sanderson

...Yes, asterisk. I mean, you have, but you wouldn't be able to notice it yet.

Secret Project #4 Reveal and Livestream (March 29, 2022)

Quote

gk-sudo

Do we know anyone who is currently a Dawnshard other than Rysn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you have met people who are curre– at least one who is currently a Dawnshard other than Rysn.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

[+Oltux72 he/him]

May I point out whom Brandon takes as your group to observe:

Quote

You are not gonna run into a large set of people- there are only four Dawnshards- and you're not gonna run into a large set of people that have held one, so there may be no consensus even in-world to what these are called, and if they are Torment or blessings or what they are.

Not people holding a Dawnshard, but people having held a Dawnshard.

I would liken Dawnshards to Shards. The change happens when you take it up, but you become a sliver only when giving it up.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

The defining difference between Shards and Dawnshards is that Shards are Aspects, nouns defined by an adjective, that are heavily based on Intent and Being a certain way

Dawnshards are verbs, Commands that need a degree of Intent to drive them, and which are inimical to certain Intents

 

Shards seem to be driven by inherent aspects of an omnipotent God and fit with traditional attributes given to God.

Thus I agree that actions probably fit the picture for Dawnshards but probably on a more metaphysical level than Forces of Physics (which Rosharan Surges cover), either forces that define sapience, or life, or God. 

 

I'm inclined to think the latter. Not what God (as he is imagined, whether you think one exists or not) IS (Honourable/Honest, Passionate - I still Odium is corrupted from his original Shard possibly by the act of attack on Adonalsium-, Preserving etc) and more on what actions set God apart.

 

In that regard, God is usually set apart not by what he can do (everything!) Or must do (nothing) but what cannot be done to God. After all, in the Cosmere these things WERE done to God and it made him God no longer, and the Dawnshards are what did this. 

By some schools of thought, God is unchangeable - giving us Change as a Command. He also can't be Created, which I think might be another DS. He can't be Broken, which might be something similar to the Command used to do the Shattering we have seen, though maybe that's too simple given how all the DS were needed to Shatter Adonalsium. An alternative would be Bound.

And he can't be Understood.

I think Empathise/Understand/Know could be Hoid/Sigzil's Command, it fits the divine and "people" in general, it fits the Shattering (you have to understand Adonalsium or know how to break it to break it), it fits the characters of Hoid and Sigzil to a tee, and it fits their Torment imo - the more you understand the more you feel what they feel and the less able you are to harm them 

 

[LiseeLou she/her]

Just finished a reread of Dawnshard. I would guess that if Rysn gets a “torment” (an unexpected and inconvenient side effect of being a Dawnshard) it would be the inability to stagnate. She might be driven to always change her circumstances, not be able to sit still, not be content with staying in one place. I doubt she will have much of an issue with this, considering her profession and personality. In fact, perhaps the Dawnshard called to her, or Chiri-Chiri chose her, because of her desire for adventure and change.