Which Shard invested the sun?

[Belgarad]

Anyone have a good guess as to which shard invested the sun?  Mine is Invention and I base that mostly on the expression "necessity is the mother of all invention".  Plus the way the shades could take schematic drawings and convert raw materials into creating your drawing seems like a clue too.

 

[TheoreticalMagic]

My guess is also Invention, but I based it on how much emphasis the book put on the technical imagery for how the planet and its Investiture was set up....the frequent comparisons to the core to the sun as filaments of a light bulb, the fact that you basically had to build up a resistance that had to be burned away, releasing Investiture as a byproduct of the interaction similar to how bulbs are designed to 'lose' energy in the form of giving off light and heat....it all felt very deliberately designed, and in a way that made me think someone with the Intent of Invention would be the most likely candidate to be behind that design.

Basically, the planet is SO weird and inexplicable, even counter-intuitive in a lot of ways, that it makes me doubt that it came about naturally or as an unintended result of a Shard randomly investing in it.....the planet itself felt experimental, like the end result of a Shard's deliberate Grand Design, and if ever there was a Shard inclined to go around experimenting with weird planetary setups or systems of Investiture, my bet's on Invention. 

[+Oltux72]

6 hours ago, Belgarad said:

Anyone have a good guess as to which shard invested the sun?  Mine is Invention and I base that mostly on the expression "necessity is the mother of all invention".  Plus the way the shades could take schematic drawings and convert raw materials into creating your drawing seems like a clue too.

None. The sun predates the Shattering. For the simple reason that the raised gravity must be old for a planet of this size to retain any air.

[Firesong]

17 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

None. The sun predates the Shattering. For the simple reason that the raised gravity must be old for a planet of this size to retain any air.

Counterpoint, Shard magic could be used to make it be retained earlier if it is an artificial planet. Which I definitely feel it is due to the fact it is so dense, and has hydrostatic equilibrium at such a small radius (161 km is smaller than any dwarf planet we have observed so far). And with how weird the core is in its interaction with the sun. It all screams "a Shard made me"

[+Oltux72]

8 hours ago, Firesong said:

Counterpoint, Shard magic could be used to make it be retained earlier if it is an artificial planet. Which I definitely feel it is due to the fact it is so dense, and has hydrostatic equilibrium at such a small radius (161 km is smaller than any dwarf planet we have observed so far). And with how weird the core is in its interaction with the sun. It all screams "a Shard made me"

Well, no.  You have shown that it is artificial. But by that logic a Shard would have made Roshar. That is not the case.

[Gavtyven]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

But by that logic a Shard would have made Roshar. That is not the case.

Roshar the planet might always have existed, but we do know that Adonalsium shaped the landmass Roshar themselves, at least according to this WoB

Quote

BipedSnowman

Does this [map of Roshar] look like a storm to anyone else?

Brandon Sanderson

I was searching for something that at once felt organic, but would hint at a pattern. (Much like cymatic patterns, as referenced in the first book.) Fractals and mathematical functions became my go-to place to hunt, as I like the blend of structure and spontaneity they can sometimes exhibit. The slice of the Julia Set was the one that stuck with me as feeling perfect for Roshar. As the continent was specifically grown by Adonalsium, you now know the seed that was used in-world to create it.

The fact that it looked like a swirling cloud is part of this all--but also part of the connection between natural patterns and the underlying math, which is a primary theme of the Stormlight books. So yes, it SHOULD look like a storm--but for deeper reasons than you might assume.

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/131/#e3953

 

[The Stormfather]

I thought it was invested by a shard. I don't think necessarily that a shard made the planet, I think a shard probably invested the sun, and Invention would make sense. The planet would have been there, but maybe something 'chased' the people from threnody, and invested the sun. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by The stormfather

[+Oltux72]

38 minutes ago, The stormfather said:

I thought it was invested by a shard. I don't think necessarily that a shard made the planet, I think a shard probably invested the sun, and Invention would make sense. The planet would have been there, but maybe something 'chased' the people from threnody, and invested the sun. 

There is something inside Canticle. The Investiture has to go somewhere and it must be very, very dense. It would be very odd if the sun and that core are unrelated. And it is still there, yet there is no perpendicularity.

Now Canticle is too small to be shaped the way it is without the mass at its core. It is also far too small to hold its air without that mass. So you either have to assume that it was created artificially after the Shattering with its core or it is old and something primordial is storing up Investiture inside it.

[Firesong]

2 hours ago, Gavtyven said:

Roshar the planet might always have existed, but we do know that Adonalsium shaped the landmass Roshar themselves, at least according to this WoB

 

Roshar is too young to have a large amount of fossils, iirc. Meaning that it isn't astronomically old. I feel that the planet, or even system itself, was made by Adonalsium. 

 

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, no.  You have shown that it is artificial. But by that logic a Shard would have made Roshar. That is not the case.

I mean, it kind of was, it was made by Adonalsium, who is sorta like a Super-Shard, given all Shards game from it. 

I don't think Adonalsium would have made Canticle, though, seems to have far less actual importance. It really does feel like it is just a weird experiment by Invention. 

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

There is something inside Canticle. The Investiture has to go somewhere and it must be very, very dense. It would be very odd if the sun and that core are unrelated. And it is still there, yet there is no perpendicularity.

Now Canticle is too small to be shaped the way it is without the mass at its core. It is also far too small to hold its air without that mass. So you either have to assume that it was created artificially after the Shattering with its core or it is old and something primordial is storing up Investiture inside it.

What I think is possible is that it actually isn't that dense, and it is the Investiture which is creating a strong gravitational pull. As the core is far denser than a planetary core should be, which is 8-12 g/cm3, the density of this core is over 152 g/cm (taking into account the given radius and a gravity of 0.7g). I think I even remember Sigzil thinking the gravity came from Investiture instead of just mass. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Firesong

[GudThymes]

I don't think it makes sense at all that a shard or Ado would've invested the sun. 

Quote

Sunlight bathed him as the ship left the shadow of the planet. Calm, warm, ordinary sunlight.

p. 274

There's something going on with the planet not the sun itself, otherwise he would've been burned up on top of the mountain.

My thought is that any old star could take the place of Canticle's star. 

[Firesong]

1 hour ago, GudThymes said:

I don't think it makes sense at all that a shard or Ado would've invested the sun. 

There's something going on with the planet not the sun itself, otherwise he would've been burned up on top of the mountain.

My thought is that any old star could take the place of Canticle's star. 

Why would he have burned up if it was Invested? Also, they explicitly said multiple times that the star is Invested and interacts with the core. 

[+Oltux72]

2 hours ago, Firesong said:

What I think is possible is that it actually isn't that dense, and it is the Investiture which is creating a strong gravitational pull. As the core is far denser than a planetary core should be, which is 8-12 g/cm3, the density of this core is over 152 g/cm (taking into account the given radius and a gravity of 0.7g). I think I even remember Sigzil thinking the gravity came from Investiture instead of just mass. 

Short of moving the planet I see no way of telling those effects apart.

[GudThymes]

29 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Why would he have burned up if it was Invested? Also, they explicitly said multiple times that the star is Invested and interacts with the core. 

Because it tells us he would at the start when he becomes Sunlit. His healing is no match for the interaction between the sun and the core.

I didn't fully explain my thinking, but wouldn't every sun be invested? In our world a star converts a small amount of mass into energy via fusion, so I don't think it's a stretch to say that fusion in the Cosmere would create investiture.

I pointed out that section because to me it is showing us that the thing to look at is the planet's core not the star. 

[Gavtyven]

25 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

wouldn't every sun be invested? In our world a star converts a small amount of mass into energy via fusion, so I don't think it's a stretch to say that fusion in the Cosmere would create investiture.

I think I remember Nomad asking Aux if he thought the sun was invested "just like Taldain's", which implies it's not common for suns to be invested, but that it does happen, as Nomad has seen quite a bit of worlds, and on every world has at least figured out enough of the magic system to get to Skip capacity

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

2 hours ago, GudThymes said:

I don't think it makes sense at all that a shard or Ado would've invested the sun. 

There's something going on with the planet not the sun itself, otherwise he would've been burned up on top of the mountain.

My thought is that any old star could take the place of Canticle's star. 

Why would he have burned up if it was Invested? Also, they explicitly said multiple times that the star is Invested and interacts with the core. 

36 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

Because it tells us he would at the start when he becomes Sunlit. His healing is no match for the interaction between the sun and the core.

I didn't fully explain my thinking, but wouldn't every sun be invested? In our world a star converts a small amount of mass into energy via fusion, so I don't think it's a stretch to say that fusion in the Cosmere would create investiture.

I pointed out that section because to me it is showing us that the thing to look at is the planet's core not the star. 

I think that when cresting the mountain, Nomad was at (or slightly above) that planet's Karman Line. Since he did not burn up where he was exposed to sunlight alone, it imples, to me, that whatever is happening at the surface requires one or more of the following:

• Air pressure
• Proximity to the core
• Exceeding some threshold of preceived gravitation

My guess is that the planet's extraordinary gravititation is condensing the sunlight and interacting with the atmorsphere to create a kind of plasma as it makes the "circuit" discussed in the book. Also, if the density (physical or investiture) is causing some level of time dilation (possibly foreshadowed by Night Brigade arriving by FLT a day~ish after Nomad Skipped) there could be an element that the light reaching the surface is multiple minutes/hours' worth of condensed sunlight in each second of exposure.

If this were the case, then above the mountain peak Nomad was just far enough from the center of the dilation to not experience condensed sunlight, and/or outside of an atmosphere that the condensed sunlight might have ionized into plasma. 

Not a scientist, just conjecture for debate. 

 

 

[Firesong]

23 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I think that when cresting the mountain, Nomad was at (or slightly above) that planet's Karman Line. Since he did not burn up where he was exposed to sunlight alone, it imples, to me, that whatever is happening at the surface requires one or more of the following:

• Air pressure
• Proximity to the core
• Exceeding some threshold of preceived gravitation

My guess is that the planet's extraordinary gravititation is condensing the sunlight and interacting with the atmorsphere to create a kind of plasma as it makes the "circuit" discussed in the book. Also, if the density (physical or investiture) is causing some level of time dilation (possibly foreshadowed by Night Brigade arriving by FLT a day~ish after Nomad Skipped) there could be an element that the light reaching the surface is multiple minutes/hours' worth of condensed sunlight in each second of exposure.

If this were the case, then above the mountain peak Nomad was just far enough from the center of the dilation to not experience condensed sunlight, and/or outside of an atmosphere that the condensed sunlight might have ionized into plasma. 

Not a scientist, just conjecture for debate. 

 

 

At the gravity level that they have, the difference would be 1.00000000001x, as the gravity is actually weaker than the Cosmere Standard. So time would be dilated less than standard. 

Also, for radial velocity, it is 28.1 m/s compared to Earth's 465.1 m/s, or around 6.04% of Earth's. Although its angular velocity is greater, 0.00017453 rad/s for Canticle and 0.00007292 rad/s for Earth,  or 2.939x that of Earth. Because angular velocity is independent of radius, whilst radial velocity is dependent on it. So, despite the shorter days, it does rotate slower than Earth. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Firesong

[Treamayne]

37 minutes ago, Firesong said:

At the gravity level that they have, the difference would be 1.00000000001x, as the gravity is actually weaker than the Cosmere Standard. So time would be dilated less than standard. 

Also, for radial velocity, it is 28.1 m/s compared to Earth's 465.1 m/s, or around 6.04% of Earth's. Although its angular velocity is greater, 0.00017453 rad/s for Canticle and 0.00007292 rad/s for Earth,  or 2.939x that of Earth. Because angular velocity is independent of radius, whilst radial velocity is dependent on it. So, despite the shorter days, it does rotate slower than Earth. 

Thanks, so if the effects mentioned in Ch 34 are due to investiture-based gravity - then if the investiture is strong enough it may cause some level of investiture-based time dilation (per WoB)

Spoiler

Questioner

Does the dead body of a Shard pull at time and space, thus causing time to pass slower in that place of the cosmere, almost like a black hole?

Brandon Sanderson

It could go either way in the Cosmere, depending. But the answer is yes. A large amount, like a deific amount of Investiture will... any amount of Investiture will cause a bit of time dilation, but the amount you're getting from even a Shardpool is not enough to be noticeable. I mean, it is, you can notice it even on our planet if you take a jet that goes fast enough, so it is noticeable but not relevantly noticeable. We're talking about a slippage of a day or so in a year even off of a Shardpool (don't canonize me on that one, I don't have the actual numbers). But that's what we're talking about. There are are chunks of Investiture of deific nature that can cause amounts of time dilation that would be virtually impossible in our universe, without you becoming one with a black hole. 

Edit: no more Rep today. . . I'll have to circle back to click the shiney buttons

Edited October 3, 2023 by Treamayne

[apepi]

I honestly thought it was Ambition's. These people are from Threnodites, so it seems easy, if people escaped from Threndoy it probably is easier to get to another Ambition connected world, and the shades to be able to use the investiture of the world would make it a lot more simpler if it was just Ambition.

 

If not you would have the Ambition shades converting a different type of investiture other than their own... Which isn't unheard of but I would bet against it I think.

[teknopathetic]

I also thought Ambition.

We know Ambition fled and survived for a bit after she was mortally wounded. Perhaps this sun and planet are some artifact she left behind for some reason before she was finally killed? The First Zellion learned of this somehow and brought the Threnodite people back there to a planet that would not be overcome by the Shade issue (perhaps something Ambition foresaw?) 

My gut would say that this planet and star are some kind of resurrection device, but I have no proof of that. It seems to be an artifact that is pulling in investiture at a crazy rate over and over again, and it doesnt seem to be releasing that energy anywhere. To me, it seems like this artifact has been charging for 1000s of years...and anything being intentionally charged must eventually have a use. 

Ambition for late-game villian! 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by teknopathetic

[Hoids4thApprentice]

I don’t think it is explicit, but I thought it was most likely Whimsey. I vaguely remember a WOB that said any planet Whimsey Invested in would be a terrible place to live. Canticle certainly fits that bill, and Sigzil repeatedly discovers that the planet has become very different from planetary norms due to the investiture, which might just be the kind of thing a whimsical divinity would do.

[bmcclure7]

6 hours ago, Hoids4thApprentice said:

I don’t think it is explicit, but I thought it was most likely Whimsey. I vaguely remember a WOB that said any planet Whimsey Invested in would be a terrible place to live. Canticle certainly fits that bill, and Sigzil repeatedly discovers that the planet has become very different from planetary norms due to the investiture, which might just be the kind of thing a whimsical divinity would do.

I think your remember that wob wrong I thought Brandon revealed exactly the opposite. 

[Treamayne]

14 hours ago, Hoids4thApprentice said:

I don’t think it is explicit, but I thought it was most likely Whimsey. I vaguely remember a WOB that said any planet Whimsey Invested in would be a terrible place to live. Canticle certainly fits that bill, and Sigzil repeatedly discovers that the planet has become very different from planetary norms due to the investiture, which might just be the kind of thing a whimsical divinity would do.

7 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I think your remember that wob wrong I thought Brandon revealed exactly the opposite. 

This is the only WoB I could find relating to Whimsy's planet:

Quote

No_Doughnut8618

Do you have a plan for Whimsy's planet already, like with a developed magic system and maybe a story to go along with it? Or is it kind of a wild card?

Brandon Sanderson

I have plans, but that doesn't prevent wild cards. Let's just say I have plans, that doesn't prevent me from changing it as things develop. The only two planets that I'm unlikely to change are Yolen and the Aether planet at this point. Those most likely need to remain canonized for reasons that they are being worked into the narratives. Everything else can be flexible.

And you assume that there's one planet for Whimsy, and that it is a planet, don't make assumptions.

 

[bmcclure7]

9 hours ago, Treamayne said:

This is the only WoB I could find relating to Whimsy's planet:

 

 I think I'm thinking of the wob where Brandon is asked if whimsy is dangerous. And he basically laughs at the idea. 

[Hoids4thApprentice]

13 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 I think I'm thinking of the wob where Brandon is asked if whimsy is dangerous. And he basically laughs at the idea. 

I think you are remembering the WOB below:

Questioner

Is Whimsy the most dangerous Shard? Is he essentially, like, a Shard cat?

Brandon Sanderson

Whimsy is the most dangerous Shard to your sense of decorum and self-worth.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

The one Treamayne found is earlier (YouTube Spoiler stream Dec 14 2021)

I have looked as best I can and cannot find a third conversation I recall hearing. In my head it was when Brandon was asked something like, what planet in the Cosmere he would want to spend time on. I seem to remember whoever was moderating steering the conversation to a Whimsy Invested planet. It’s just that as much as I search the Arcanum I can’t find it. Did I make it up?

[Treamayne]

6 minutes ago, Hoids4thApprentice said:

I have looked as best I can and cannot find a third conversation I recall hearing. In my head it was when Brandon was asked something like, what planet in the Cosmere he would want to spend time on. I seem to remember whoever was moderating steering the conversation to a Whimsy Invested planet. It’s just that as much as I search the Arcanum I can’t find it. Did I make it up?

This one?

Spoiler

Yosef Joe

If Brandon got a Shard, what Shard would it be and what would he do with it?

Brandon Sanderson

I don't know, I've been asked something along these lines before. I do fit Autonomy pretty well, but I also feel like I fit Invention pretty well, so probably one of those two. There's definitely some that are not very Brandon. Whimsy: not a very Brandon Shard, let's just point that one out, but I could see myself with bunches of them.

What would I do? Pocket universes and... I guess you can't really create those in the... well you can and in the Spiritual Realm, but... Y'know, building funky planets and weird magic systems, that's what I do anyway. You would probably just float through the cosmere and find just planet after planet of screwball magic systems that people are trying to figure out how to use and being like wow, the person who did this, why did they make us use magic based on bagel flavors, can't we have the one where we just fly?