future of hemalurgy threatened by unsealed metal minds

[Alumínio]

As we saw in TLM, malwish medallions can store ferruquemic and also food (BoM) capabilities, and this worries me because it takes away a lot of the main plots of hemalurgy in scadrial at least, I don't see people vying for powers in a world where they can simply buy medallions, therefore, the use that I foresee for hemalurgy in the future of the planet would be creating new species or improving current ones

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

22 minutes ago, Alumínio said:

As we saw in TLM, malwish medallions can store ferruquemic and also food (BoM) capabilities, and this worries me because it takes away a lot of the main plots of hemalurgy in scadrial at least, I don't see people vying for powers in a world where they can simply buy medallions, therefore, the use that I foresee for hemalurgy in the future of the planet would be creating new species or improving current ones

We really don't know enough about medallions to say.  We know hemalurgy is as easy as finding a host to give up a power... I could totally see spikes becoming inheritance that is passed on. 

So far we have seen very limited medallions. It isn't quite as simple as "make medallion and gain power".  It appears that medallions may be limited in what functions from a power you are able to use.  Hemalurgy isn't limited in that sort of way.  

I think Hemalurgy and medallions are going to be used in concert with eachother in the future and I don't see the market for either of them ever going away.   

One of them will obviously be quite taboo and less accepted. There may be strict laws surrounding hemalurgy soon. As much as Sazed tried to hide it that art is going to gain more and more traction. 

[Trusk'our]

3 hours ago, Alumínio said:

As we saw in TLM, malwish medallions can store ferruquemic and also food (BoM) capabilities, and this worries me because it takes away a lot of the main plots of hemalurgy in scadrial at least, I don't see people vying for powers in a world where they can simply buy medallions, therefore, the use that I foresee for hemalurgy in the future of the planet would be creating new species or improving current ones

I once worried about this too, but I no longer think this will be the case.

First of all, as @Tamriel Wolfsbaine mentioned, the medallions are more limited than spikes in some ways, even though we don't know all the ways they are yet. This will likely be mitigated as time passes and newer, better medallions come to fruition, but I doubt that Hemalurgic spikes will entirely run out of use.

Plus, the powers that a medallion provide are temporary as the nicrosil portion of the medallions will run out eventually. Hemalurgic spikes don't have that issue.

Hemalurgic spikes also have the potential to change or augment a lot more their bearer's Spiritweb than a medallion. It would be really cool to see advances in Hemalurgic sciences in the later eras.

So I think that both will become useful in their own respective ways; medallions will likely become a cheaper, more preferable and wider scale way of accessing the Metallic Arts, but Hemalurgy will always have some value if utilized correctly (though it's entirely possible that the taboos attached to it will mean only the desperate or power-hungry groups will ever use it).

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Alumínio said:

As we saw in TLM, malwish medallions can store ferruquemic and also food (BoM) capabilities, and this worries me because it takes away a lot of the main plots of hemalurgy in scadrial at least, I don't see people vying for powers in a world where they can simply buy medallions,

That's not so simple. First off, they can't make a medallion that gives more than 3 powers. Secondly medallions with some physical attributes, like speed, strength, mental speed etc, are also suspiciously missing. Thirdly, there are no medallions that grant Allomantic powers. Moreover Medallions seems to be one way use only - we've never seen a medallion that was both tapped and stored. Medallions are far more limited than we used to believe after BoM. TLM ch 9:

Quote

Every time they tried to get more information on medallions from people in the know, they got stonewalled. Obviously these were Malwish trade secrets, which explained part of it, but interviewing Allik they were able to consistently pick out discrepancies in what he said and what they actually saw. Why weren’t there Feruchemical soldiers in the Malwish army with extremely heightened strength, mental speed, or other dangerous Feruchemical talents? Why weren’t there Allomancer medallions? The more they learned, the more certain Wax became that there was a secret there, indicating the medallions were not as effective or as versatile as the Malwish would like people to believe.

The Bands of Mourning are the only exception, but we don't know how they were made.

Hemalurgy not only has no such restrictions, but also recently got a major breakthrough - not only can you spike without killing, you can also take raw investiture and program it to grant you invested powers. As Moonlight pointed out, this could lead to creation of spikes with just raw investiture, like Dor, without need to steal anything from living beings. That's big, there definitely will be a bigger progress and use of spikes in the future. Kelsier will definitely research more in that direction. BoM ch 47:

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“You don’t understand,” Moonlight said. “If they’re even close to forging Metalborn out of the raw power of souls—if they’ve had tests that resulted in an Allomancer, no matter how fleeting … Marasi, that path could lead to creating spikes using pure Investiture instead of souls.” She tapped her rucksack, indicating the glowing jars inside.

 

9 hours ago, Alumínio said:

therefore, the use that I foresee for hemalurgy in the future of the planet would be creating new species or improving current ones

There is a few problems with that. Firstly, Hemalurgically acquired traits are not passed down on your kids, instead, there would be some complications. Secondly, every Hemalurgic spike causes some harm to you, some deformations, mental impairment etc - it will always hurt you, and damage your soul. Thirdly, using Hemalurgic spikes to grant attributes, like strength, will likely cause massive deformation, like we saw with Koloss, or Chimaras - we've never seen a spike with an attribute that didn’t result in drastic deformations, and physical or mental changes. You can't create a new species, as without constant supply of new spikes this species will die (like Koloss in Era 1, they started breeding true only because Sazed changed them), and traits gained with Hemalurgy won't be passed down onto their kids. At best new Hemalurgic Constructs will be made (that's for sure), and Hemalurgy will be used to improve individuals by giving them powers, not attributes (like it was already used).

Spoiler

Questioner

I wondered if an Inquisitor had children, if they would inherit stronger Inquisitor abilities, or if they would just inherit the lesser lines from being a Seeker, for example?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. I don't think I've ever been asked this before... The way Hemalurgy works, if you're not aware, you are taking someone else's soul, and you are basically nailing it to your soul... That won't affect the children. So you will have the weaker lines.

They have tried that. Unfortunately.

Berlin signing (May 14, 2019)

 

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Plus, the powers that a medallion provide are temporary as the nicrosil portion of the medallions will run out eventually.

It doesn't run out, it behaves like a coppermind, and they don't run out of attributes.

Spoiler

Pagerunner

When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! Like a coppermind.

General Signed Books 2018 (Oct. 15, 2018)

 

[Atlas333]

On 9/30/2023 at 4:57 AM, alder24 said:

It doesn't run out, it behaves like a coppermind, and they don't run out of attributes.

While you're right that the nicrosil doesn't run out, the other attribute will. From what we've seen, it looks like a medallion only gives the ability to tap or store, not both. This means that once you've tapped all your heat, you can't refill it. I could see this easily being solved by selling filled metal minds for certain attributes that can be "refilled" into medallions (which I think sounds perfect for a setting that's more futuristic).

On 9/29/2023 at 10:46 PM, Trusk'our said:

So I think that both will become useful in their own respective ways; medallions will likely become a cheaper, more preferable and wider scale way of accessing the Metallic Arts, but Hemalurgy will always have some value if utilized correctly (though it's entirely possible that the taboos attached to it will mean only the desperate or power-hungry groups will ever use it).

Definitely agree, for some groups of people hemalurgy will always be preferred to medallions. 

 

[alder24]

14 minutes ago, Atlas333 said:

While you're right that the nicrosil doesn't run out, the other attribute will. From what we've seen, it looks like a medallion only gives the ability to tap or store, not both. This means that once you've tapped all your heat, you can't refill it. I could see this easily being solved by selling filled metal minds for certain attributes that can be "refilled" into medallions (which I think sounds perfect for a setting that's more futuristic).

Yes and yes. I've discussed this in the first part of my point. However, while we've never seen the same medallion being both filled and tapped, used up heat medallions are given to Firemothers and Firefathers, who can refill them with heat - so there is a way for medallions to be of dual use, but we don't know if that's normal or if something has to be done with them first to allow Fireperson to store in them instead of tap. However this isn't something trivial because Set couldn't figure out a way to do that. BoM ch 21:

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“Sure did. Saved us, bless him. Taught us that the Metalborn were pieces of God, each one of them, though we didn’t have any of those at first. He gave us devices, and started the Firemothers and Firefathers, who live to fill these medallions so the rest of us may leave our homes and survive in this too-cold world. After he left, we used his gifts to figure out the rest, like these that make us fly.”

BoM ch 25:

Quote

“You do know what the medallions do,” Wax said.
“Certainly,” Edwarn said. “But their reserves of heat are not eternal, and we don’t know how to refill them. We had to reserve their use for those who were suffering greatly from the cold during our trip.”