Spheres vs shards

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I am no physics expert but I am trying to figure out in my mind just how tough shardplate really is. 

I think shardplate can easily resist coins shot at it. But how big and fast does a projectile have to travel to deal damage to a shardplate? 

While I don't think we have solid numbers from Brandon on speed from steel pushes we do have the MAG which lists 2 different speeds ranging from 100mph to 250mph. This puts the allomantically pushed metals about the range of speeds I would expect to see from some traditional self bows all the way to higher end compound bows (150fps - 370fps).  

If I was a mistborn I would probably just try to collect and carry multiple different sized spheres of metals. 

So while I don't think coins would do the trick, we know that bullets could. But at those speeds how big would these spheres have to be to make it happen?  

Iron spheres at 3inches in diameter are 1.8kg and at 1 inch in diameter they are 67.5 grams. There is a big gap between these but I am curious where people think it would land to be 1 hit to crack some plate?  

I assume that if a .44 could crack plate in 2-3 shots and it only weighs 15.5 grams the slower speed could be made up for in those sizes of spheres.  

A 15.5 gram .44mag at 1350fps generates 971ft-lbs of kinetic energy. 

At 370fps a 67gram 1 inch in diameter iron sphere would generate 314 ft lbs.  

A 1.5 inch in diameter iron sphere would weight 227g and generate 1065ft lbs. 

2 inches would weigh 540g and generate 2533ft lbs

3 inches weighs 1.8kg and would generate 8443ft lbs. 

That is just with iron. 

Gold is more than 2.5x as dense as iron. Just a 1.5 in diameter sphere of gold would be 558 grams and generate nearly 3x the kinetic energy of a .44mag. 

 

I guess this leads me to questions of optimization. 

Gold is far more expensive and softer. I don't know that it would ever be worth using it.  

What metals do you think would lend to a heavier density while still maintaining the benefits of being able to withstand that sort of force?  Where would you want to stop for kinetic energy levels and call it good?  

 

I assume that part of why Vin doesn't travel at the speed of an arrow is because of her size and air resistance.  That said I don't think dense solid spheres of metal are going to make that much of a difference when being used as steel and iron allomancy projectiles.  

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I am no physics expert but I am trying to figure out in my mind just how tough shardplate really is. 

You might be able to do some baseline math based on WoR Ch 57:

Spoiler

He crossed the sands in a quick dash and then, right before reaching Relis, Kaladin jumped to put his feet toward the Shardbearer and Lashed himself that direction many times in quick succession. As many as he dared, so many that he burned through all of his Stormlight.

Though Kaladin fell only a short distance—enough that it wouldn’t look too unusual to those watching—he hit with the force of having fallen much farther. His feet smashed against the Plate as he kicked with everything he had.

Pain shot up his legs like lightning striking, and he heard his bones crack. The kick flung the black-armored Shardbearer forward as if he’d been struck by a boulder. Relis went sprawling on his face, Blade flung from his hands. It vanished to mist.

Kaladin crashed to the sand, groaning, his Stormlight exhausted and the Lashings ended. By reflex, he sucked in more Light from the spheres in his pocket, letting it heal his legs. He’d broken them both, and his feet.

The healing process seemed to take forever, and he forced himself to roll over and look at Relis. Incredibly, Kaladin’s attack had cracked the Shardplate. Not the center of the back plate where he’d hit, but at the shoulders and sides. Relis climbed to his knees, shaking his head. He looked back at Kaladin with what seemed like an attitude of awe.

So, we know the shardplaye cracked at Kaladin kicking with at-least 4x Lashings and "falling" approximately 1 meter (any more would be too obvious, ikely less). Some math should at least get you a force estimate at which Plate is confirmed to crack. . . 

[therunner]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

While I don't think we have solid numbers from Brandon on speed from steel pushes we do have the MAG which lists 2 different speeds ranging from 100mph to 250mph. This puts the allomantically pushed metals about the range of speeds I would expect to see from some traditional self bows all the way to higher end compound bows (150fps - 370fps). 

MAG is not exactly canon, and those speeds don't make much sense, since wooden shields are sufficient to block coins pushed by Mistborn. Guns are more powerful than that.

Not to mention that achievable speed from steelpush depends on mass of pushed object, since steelpush imparts force. Heavier object won't be moving at those speeds.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I assume that if a .44 could crack plate in 2-3 shots and it only weighs 15.5 grams the slower speed could be made up for in those sizes of spheres. 

Wax with Vindication could crack plate in 2-3 shots.
Other than that Plate resists bullets well per WoB

Spoiler

VindicationKnight

To what extent could Shardplate resist a bullet?

Brandon Sanderson

Plate would resist a bullet well.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 15, 2015)

@Treamayne
EDIT:
we can actually estimate how many times Kaladin lashed himself from the fact that his kick flung Shardbearer and sent him sprawling. Full Plate weighs around ~620 kg (per books Plate weights 100 stoneweights, in 1 stone is 6.25 kg). Let's say Kaladin (and Relis) weights 15 stone. Then Kaladin must have had a momentum of at least 350 kg*m/s (I think speed of 0.5m/s is good baseline for being flung and sent sprawling., if conservative), which means his speed would have to have been 23 m/s. (assuming it is perfectly inelastic colision).

To get to that speed over the trajectory of 1 meter, the acceleration (uniform) must have been ~260m/s^2. That is around 370 Lashings.
The fact that some of the energy was lost in collision (to break plate, and Kaladin's legs) means he the velocity of Kaladin would have been even greater.

At any rate, Kaladin had to have applied at least dozens if not low hundreds of Lashings to achieve the effect of his kicking flinging a Shardbearer.

Equations used:

1. Momentum conservation m_1 v_1 = m_2 v_2
2. v = a*t
3. d = 1/2 a*t^2

Edited September 17, 2023 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

5 minutes ago, therunner said:

MAG is not exactly canon, and those speeds don't make much sense, since wooden shields are sufficient to block coins pushed by Mistborn. Guns are more powerful than that.

Not to mention that achievable speed from steelpush depends on mass of pushed object, since steelpush imparts force. Heavier object won't be moving at those speeds.

Wax with Vindication could crack plate in 2-3 shots.
Other than that Plate resists bullets well per WoB

  Hide contents

VindicationKnight

To what extent could Shardplate resist a bullet?

Brandon Sanderson

Plate would resist a bullet well.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 15, 2015)

 

I get that the MAG isn't exactly cannon. It simply has some figured that I think make sense. 

I agree that shields can block coins. That is a big part of why I am posting this. 

A quarter is about 6 grams traveling at 370fps would only have 28ft-lbs of kinetic energy. 

Hence a bit of confusion. Those are used as weapons frequently.  I have to assume that steel pushes coins faster than 250mph (~370fps) as that wouldn't do much to even the softest of humans.  

However I'm not talking coins.  I'm not even talking bullets.  A steel push is capable of shooting a mistborn into the air 100+feet. The acceleration is nearly instant and it continues so long as you keep pushing. 

Hence my thoughts of stepping it up with larger spheres. 

Wax with Vindication is an interesting point but if that bullet is already going faster than the speed of sound how is it that Waxes push does anything to it anyway?  Unless he is simply pushing when it hits.  

Which leads to my point that a 3inch diameter sphere of iron at arrow speeds is 8.6x the kinetic energy of a modern day .44mag round. 

Again, I only use the MAG rules as a speculative baseline. The coins as weapons thing proves that speed of a coin must be far higher than that. And 4lbs is still far far far lighter than a 160lb person so I assume the push would still gather more than enough speed.  

[therunner]

4 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

However I'm not talking coins.  I'm not even talking bullets.  A steel push is capable of shooting a mistborn into the air 100+feet. The acceleration is nearly instant and it continues so long as you keep pushing.

Steelpush strength depends on size of metal as well.
Pushing of a coin gets you barely 30 feet in the air (Luthadel walls), and the acceleration is ~3-4 g's at most.

4 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Wax with Vindication is an interesting point but if that bullet is already going faster than the speed of sound how is it that Waxes push does anything to it anyway?  Unless he is simply pushing when it hits. 

Steelpush applies force, force accelerates bullet. It does not matter if the bullet is moving at some speed already, it will get accelerated anyway.

And Wax can put literal tons of weight behind his pushes, letting him basically literally push his bullets through target (like he did with nails in that  building in AoL).
Regular Coinshot won't be able to do that.

 

Quote

I have to assume that steel pushes coins faster than 250mph (~370fps) as that wouldn't do much to even the softest of humans.  

Ehm, coin at those speeds would definitely go through soft tissue. A penny (1.5 gram) can break skin at ~200 mph. Coins in Mistborn are heavier than that, so speeds to break skin can be lower.

Edited September 17, 2023 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Steelpush strength depends on size of metal as well.
Pushing of a coin gets you barely 30 feet in the air (Luthadel walls), and the acceleration is ~3-4 g's at most.

Steelpush applies force, force accelerates bullet. It does not matter if the bullet is moving at some speed already, it will get accelerated anyway.

And Wax can put literal tons of weight behind his pushes, letting him basically literally push his bullets through target (like he did with nails in that  building in AoL).
Regular Coinshot won't be able to do that.

 

Ehm, coin at those speeds would definitely go through soft tissue. A penny (1.5 gram) can break skin at ~200 mph. Coins in Mistborn are heavier than that, so speeds to break skin can be lower.

I just found this awesome post. 

In this post he calculates the slings and human sized heads... he believes 1580 joules or so is required to crack plate.  

That puts this at somewhere just over the 1.5inch diameter iron sphere at 370fps. Granted this is about 4x faster than a sling but its from a mistborn... who can fling their body around faster than a sling.  

It is a solid piece of metal.  However I may be misunderstanding how Steel works.  

Is it based on the amount of metal?  Pushing a solid metal coin is easier than pushing a metal flake.  But pushing a golfballsized solid metal sphere is harder than pushing a coin?  

The size of the mistborn matters right?  

So would this golfball sized projectile fly faster or slower from someone at 200lbs than vin at maybe 110?  Wax gets to maximize output with his weight right?  So say a fatter mistborn was using it?  Do you still think these speeds are unrealistic?  

 

[therunner]

7 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I just found this awesome post. 

In this post he calculates the slings and human sized heads... he believes 1580 joules or so is required to crack plate. 

Few issues with that reasoning:

1) Warform Parshendi are about twice as strong as human, so the kinetic energy would be at least twice that, i.e. ~3000 Joules.
2) It barely cracked the plate. The plate puffed a bit, and healed basically immediately.

7 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

That puts this at somewhere just over the 1.5inch diameter iron sphere at 370fps. Granted this is about 4x faster than a sling but its from a mistborn... who can fling their body around faster than a sling. 

Twice the kinetic energy would mean the speed if the 1.5 inch iron sphere would have to be 518 fps or 157 m/s.
Mistborn don't move anywhere near that speed, best feat is Vin and she moved at barely ~60 km/h (or 16.7 m/s), using horseshoe trick.
Even their instantaneous speed immediately after pushing off of something won't go over 30 m/s, since to rise ~50 feet takes them at least a second.

So yeah, Mistborn won't be able to fling anything that large with that speed. Maybe with duralumin?

7 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Is it based on the amount of metal?  Pushing a solid metal coin is easier than pushing a metal flake.  But pushing a golfballsized solid metal sphere is harder than pushing a coin? 

The size of the mistborn matters right?  

Object must be at least certain size to be pushed, metal dust is too small for example.

But above the lower threshold you can push anything.

But Mistborn has certain force they can exert, which determines the acceleration of the object as a = F/m. What force Mistborn exerts is a bit odd, as it sometimes behaves like if they were literally pushing their body against it (so bracing helps) but sometimes more like if it is some fixed force.

In addition, the amount of force they can exert depends on the 'strength' of the line Connecting them to the metal (fainter line, weaker Connection, weaker push), and larger objects have larger/stronger lines. So e.g. pushing on car, or metallic construction of skyscraper, Coinshot can exert greater force than when pushing a coin or small metal ball.
But the force does not grow linearly with mass, so the acceleration of larger objects is smaller than that of small objects.

But either way, heavier objects will be accelerated less. So coins move about as fast as Mistborn can fling anything, and they certainly move slower than 100 m/s.

7 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So would this golfball sized projectile fly faster or slower from someone at 200lbs than vin at maybe 110? 

I would say same speed from both, but if it encountered resistance the heavier Mistborn would have advantage (it would be easier for the projectile to push through, if Mistborn was still pushing on it).

7 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

 Wax gets to maximize output with his weight right?

Only if he can leverage the weight, so it primarily helps when pushing through opposing force or if he is above the object he is pushing on.

7 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

  So say a fatter mistborn was using it?  Do you still think these speeds are unrealistic? 

Yes, they are faaar above anything we have ever seen from Mistborn. Maybe with Duralumin they could achieve those speeds, but it would still barely crack a plate.


I'll copy my analysis of the Kaladin situation from above, because it shows just how much Plate can take:

Quote

EDIT:
we can actually estimate how many times Kaladin lashed himself from the fact that his kick flung Shardbearer and sent him sprawling. Full Plate weighs around ~620 kg (per books Plate weights 100 stoneweights, in 1 stone is 6.25 kg). Let's say Kaladin (and Relis) weights 15 stone. Then Kaladin must have had a momentum of at least 350 kg*m/s (I think speed of 0.5m/s is good baseline for being flung and sent sprawling., if conservative), which means his speed would have to have been 23 m/s. (assuming it is perfectly inelastic colision).

To get to that speed over the trajectory of 1 meter, the acceleration (uniform) must have been ~260m/s^2. That is around 370 Lashings.
The fact that some of the energy was lost in collision (to break plate, and Kaladin's legs) means he the velocity of Kaladin would have been even greater.

At any rate, Kaladin had to have applied at least dozens if not low hundreds of Lashings to achieve the effect of his kicking flinging a Shardbearer.

Equations used:

1. Momentum conservation m_1 v_1 = m_2 v_2
2. v = a*t
3. d = 1/2 a*t^2

 

So several sections of Plate crack (4 I think), not even fully break, when full grown man crashes into it moving at least 23m/s, having kinetic energy of 23800 Joules, which is ~7x times larger than the kinetic energy of the stones Parshendi were slinging (taking into account that they are twice as strong as human, without that assumption it would be 14x larger).

To achieve this kinetic energy, the 1.5 inch steel sphere would have to move at 414 m/s or faster than speed of sound. That is waaay beyond even Duralumin enhanced Steelpush.

As a result, Mistborn basically has no chance of doing meaningful damage to plate, not without some other tools at their disposal., steelpushes are simply not strong enough.

Edited September 18, 2023 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Few issues with that reasoning:

1) Warform Parshendi are about twice as strong as human, so the kinetic energy would be at least twice that, i.e. ~3000 Joules.
2) It barely cracked the plate. The plate puffed a bit, and healed basically immediately.

Twice the kinetic energy would mean the speed if the 1.5 inch iron sphere would have to be 518 fps or 157 m/s.
Mistborn don't move anywhere near that speed, best feat is Vin and she moved at barely ~60 km/h (or 16.7 m/s), using horseshoe trick.
Even their instantaneous speed immediately after pushing off of something won't go over 30 m/s, since to rise ~50 feet takes them at least a second.

So yeah, Mistborn won't be able to fling anything that large with that speed. Maybe with duralumin?

Object must be at least certain size to be pushed, metal dust is too small for example.

But above the lower threshold you can push anything.

But Mistborn has certain force they can exert, which determines the acceleration of the object as a = F/m. What force Mistborn exerts is a bit odd, as it sometimes behaves like if they were literally pushing their body against it (so bracing helps) but sometimes more like if it is some fixed force.

In addition, the amount of force they can exert depends on the 'strength' of the line Connecting them to the metal (fainter line, weaker Connection, weaker push), and larger objects have larger/stronger lines. So e.g. pushing on car, or metallic construction of skyscraper, Coinshot can exert greater force than when pushing a coin or small metal ball.
But the force does not grow linearly with mass, so the acceleration of larger objects is smaller than that of small objects.

But either way, heavier objects will be accelerated less. So coins move about as fast as Mistborn can fling anything, and they certainly move slower than 100 m/s.

I would say same speed from both, but if it encountered resistance the heavier Mistborn would have advantage (it would be easier for the projectile to push through, if Mistborn was still pushing on it).

Only if he can leverage the weight, so it primarily helps when pushing through opposing force or if he is above the object he is pushing on.

Yes, they are faaar above anything we have ever seen from Mistborn. Maybe with Duralumin they could achieve those speeds, but it would still barely crack a plate.


I'll copy my analysis of the Kaladin situation from above, because it shows just how much Plate can take:

So several sections of Plate crack (4 I think), not even fully break, when full grown man crashes into it moving at least 23m/s, having kinetic energy of 23800 Joules, which is ~7x times larger than the kinetic energy of the stones Parshendi were slinging (taking into account that they are twice as strong as human, without that assumption it would be 14x larger).

To achieve this kinetic energy, the 1.5 inch steel sphere would have to move at 414 m/s or faster than speed of sound. That is waaay beyond even Duralumin enhanced Steelpush.

As a result, Mistborn basically has no chance of doing meaningful damage to plate, not without some other tools at their disposal., steelpushes are simply not strong enough.

I don't think the energy of kaladin is a good example.  It is apples to oranges.  

His legs are like the crumple zone of a car only they work better than the crumple zone of the car by virtue of being surrounded by a bunch of squishy bits. 

Not to mention the shardbearer going sprawling is another good illustration of wasted energy. Not only do you have Kaladins body acting like a crumple zone but you also have the shardbearer moving away from him.  

And 4 sections of plate were broken. 

I don't think that this argument disproves anything that I have been saying.  

The metal ball is smaller and the sphere allows it to hit with as small of a cross section as possible.  The crumple zone of a solid piece of metal doesn't really exist (why I was asking what metal would be best. Perhaps Tungsten as its density is nearly 3 times that of steel or iron and it has the hardness to solve the issue of deforming that gold would have.)  

I like that demonstration of 2 ballbearings hitting eachother casually and the energy being great enough to create a Shockwave. Granted they are the perfect size for this to happen at 2 inches in diameter each for that demonstration but that also shows how the size and shape of the object matters. 

So if made from Tungsten a 2 inch diameter ball bearing would weight about 1325 grams and if we bring it well underneath the 100m/s and say its going 80m/s it would still generate 4200+ joules. 

Which would be more effective of a weapon than a head sized stone anyways. 

At 3 inches in diameter it would be 4.5 kilos almost and generate 14000+ joules.  With no crumple zone and a small area for impact.  

Furthermore, to say duralumin couldn't do it is kind of silly. Wax jumped to the ship while carrying Wayne thanks to duralumin.  

Not Wax was flinging cars and trucks casually with duralumin in TLM. 

 

Now does anyone want to be carrying around a 10lb metal ball with them?  I know I probably wouldn't. But if I was a mistborn and had to fight someone in shardplate I would be all over it. Give me 2 or 3. 

 

 

[therunner]

55 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I don't think the energy of kaladin is a good example.  It is apples to oranges.  

His legs are like the crumple zone of a car only they work better than the crumple zone of the car by virtue of being surrounded by a bunch of squishy bits. 

Not to mention the shardbearer going sprawling is another good illustration of wasted energy. Not only do you have Kaladins body acting like a crumple zone but you also have the shardbearer moving away from him.  

And 4 sections of plate were broken.

I don't think that this argument disproves anything that I have been saying.  

It the best example of Shardplate being cracked in a single hit where we can actually estimate the energy and momentum.

And the energy is order of magnitude larger at least.

55 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

The metal ball is smaller and the sphere allows it to hit with as small of a cross section as possible.  The crumple zone of a solid piece of metal doesn't really exist (why I was asking what metal would be best. Perhaps Tungsten as its density is nearly 3 times that of steel or iron and it has the hardness to solve the issue of deforming that gold would have.) 

I'll return to the simple fact that Plate would resist bullets well, and Coinshot simply cannot match what a gun can do.
Coinshot gets stopped by wooden shield, bullets don't.

Coinshot + Duralumin is still not much better than a gun I would wager.

55 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So if made from Tungsten a 2 inch diameter ball bearing would weight about 1325 grams and if we bring it well underneath the 100m/s and say its going 80m/s it would still generate 4200+ joules. 

Which would be more effective of a weapon than a head sized stone anyways.

And Mistborn would be unable to accelerate it to that speed. They never get anything that heavy moving that fast. I doubt even coins which are 100x lighter reach those speeds.

55 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

At 3 inches in diameter it would be 4.5 kilos almost and generate 14000+ joules.  With no crumple zone and a small area for impact. 

Again, Mistborn won't get it moving that fast.

55 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Not Wax was flinging cars and trucks casually with duralumin in TLM.

Not casually, he had to brace. Crasher would not have that problem though.

And again, larger metallic object = larger force can be created via steelpush. So sure he can throw a truck with D+Steelpush, he still won't get metallic ball moving at supersonic speeds.

55 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Now does anyone want to be carrying around a 10lb metal ball with them?  I know I probably wouldn't. But if I was a mistborn and had to fight someone in shardplate I would be all over it. Give me 2 or 3.

If it is deadplate, then yeah this would let Mistborn win, if there were suitable anchors around.

But against Radiant, it would prolong the inevitable if the Order has good mobility options.

And since Mistborn would have to use Duralumin just to have a chance of damaging the Plate, they have to replenish metal (both Pewter and Steel), during which they are vulnerable, and Plate has time to heal. Plus Mistborn would have to brace against something to stand a chance of getting it move that fast.

Edited September 18, 2023 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 minutes ago, therunner said:

It the best example of Shardplate being cracked in a single hit where we can actually estimate the energy and momentum.

And the energy is order of magnitude larger at least.

I'll return to the simple fact that Plate would resist bullets well, and Coinshot simply cannot match what a gun can do.
Coinshot gets stopped by wooden shield, bullets don't.

And Mistborn would be unable to accelerate it to that speed. They never get anything that heavy moving that fast. I doubt even coins which are 100x lighter reach those speeds.

Again, Mistborn won't get it moving that fast.

Not casually, he had to brace. Crasher would not have that problem though.

And again, larger metallic object = larger force can be created via steelpush. So sure he can throw a truck with D+Steelpush, he still won't get metallic ball moving at supersonic speeds.

If it is deadplate, then yeah this would let Mistborn win, if there were suitable anchors around.

But against Radiant, it would prolong the inevitable.

And since Mistborn would have to use Duralumin just to have a chance of damaging the Plate, they have to replenish metal (both Pewter and Steel), during which they are vulnerable, and Plate has time to heal.

I never said super sonic speed.  I am talking 4+x slower than that. I never tried to push supersonic speeds onto this. 

Estimated velocity when Olympic thrower launches a shot is 38m/s. With a Tungsten 3 inch diameter ball bearing the kinetic energy there is 3200+ joules.  That is with female weights.  Men shotputters throw 7.62 kilos which would be 5500 joules and measure in at 3.5 inches in diameter.  

These people don't have pewter let alone Steel. 

Do you really think that steel pushes are weaker than a shot putter tossing a shot that size?  

Considering you are using your own size vs the ball itself and you can continue pushing it the entire way?   

I just think you far underestimate the power of steel. 

Say Vin does weigh 110lbs and she only clocks in at 60km/h (which I think is pretty low given she is traveling in large arcs over the ground and pewter sprint wasn't too far behind those speeds) that still requires more energy than those speeds (6929 joules per jump at least not counting the arc so I would estimate higher than that since a good portion of her speed and traveling is getting a good enough angle to use the horse shoe trick.)  If a 200 lb mistborn were keeping pace with her each one of their pushes would have to generate 12600 joules.  

But what about the metal and how much metal is there?  A horse shoe is just over a kilo. If more metal = more energy and Vin is making these jumps off of just over a kilos worth of metal.  How fast would that horse shoe be traveling if not for the ground? The same energy that is required to let her move at 60km/hr (again not counting the arc and trying to be really conservative in these estimations) would send that horse shoe at 2.5lbs flying at 111m/s 

The 200 lb man?  He would be shooting the horse shoe at 149m/s to generate a 60km/hr pace. 

None of this counts for the ground absorbing energy or the arc. I imagine the energy would be greater.  

And a 3inch ball bearing of Tungsten would have more metallic mass to push from in a tighter condensed space as well as being more aerodynamic.  I think that pushing against it would actually be stronger steel lines than the horse shoe.  

[therunner]

53 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I never said super sonic speed.  I am talking 4+x slower than that. I never tried to push supersonic speeds onto this.

True, I did. Sorry about that.

53 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Estimated velocity when Olympic thrower launches a shot is 38m/s. With a Tungsten 3 inch diameter ball bearing the kinetic energy there is 3200+ joules.  That is with female weights.  Men shotputters throw 7.62 kilos which would be 5500 joules and measure in at 3.5 inches in diameter.  

These people don't have pewter let alone Steel. 

Do you really think that steel pushes are weaker than a shot putter tossing a shot that size? 

I think steelpushes behave kinda weirdly, so it is possible.

And again, 6000 joules is barely able to crack a section. Sure greater pressure would help, but that is not guaranteed, Shardhammers are weapon of choice against Shardbearers if you don't have Shardblade, suggesting that area of impact is not as relevant, as based on description it is literally just a gigantic hammer.

53 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Considering you are using your own size vs the ball itself and you can continue pushing it the entire way?  

Not the entire way, there is finite range (e.g. coins stop being pushable at 15 meters), and the further away the weaker the push. We have no idea how it falls off though.

53 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I just think you far underestimate the power of steel.

You are free to think that.

But the books I don't think support steel being anywhere near as powerful as you suggest.

53 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Say Vin does weigh 110lbs and she only clocks in at 60km/h (which I think is pretty low given she is traveling in large arcs over the ground and pewter sprint wasn't too far behind those speeds)

Pewter sprint is only a bit faster than galloping horse, which is at most 50 km/h in horses specifically raised for that. So pewtersprint is at best that, more likely lower like 45 km/h.

Based on sizes of dominance and her travel time, I think she must have travelled about ~100 km/h if I remember right.

53 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

that still requires more energy than those speeds (6929 joules per jump at least not counting the arc so I would estimate higher than that since a good portion of her speed and traveling is getting a good enough angle to use the horse shoe trick.)  If a 200 lb mistborn were keeping pace with her each one of their pushes would have to generate 12600 joules. 

Yeah, but the problem is aerodynamics. Drag grows with square of velocity, so to get small object to that kinetic energy will require more work than to get Vin to that speed.

And yeah, heavier Mistborn would have to work harder to get to those speeds, or more likely, would not be able to reach Vin's speed because they are heavier.

53 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

But what about the metal and how much metal is there?  A horse shoe is just over a kilo. If more metal = more energy and Vin is making these jumps off of just over a kilos worth of metal.  How fast would that horse shoe be traveling if not for the ground? The same energy that is required to let her move at 60km/hr (again not counting the arc and trying to be really conservative in these estimations) would send that horse shoe at 2.5lbs flying at 111m/s

That is not how it would work. Aerodynamics will be quite relevant and Mistborn has to overcome aerodynamic drag, the power needed to overcome drag grows with third power of the velocity. 

Additionally, Vin clearly is not throwing those horseshoes at 111 m/s in those scenes, so we can comfortably say that is not happening, perhaps there is some odd asymmetry because Spiritual shenanigans.

53 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

And a 3inch ball bearing of Tungsten would have more metallic mass to push from in a tighter condensed space as well as being more aerodynamic.  I think that pushing against it would actually be stronger steel lines than the horse shoe.  

Size seems to matter more than mass of the object. No one describes different metals having differently strong lines (so far at least).
But differently sized objects do have different lines.

But at the end of the day, if steel could do what you say it can, both Eras would look different. Wax would not have to bother with a gun, since his Steelpushes would drive bullets faster than that, wooden shields could not stop those coins, etc.

Edit: I mean, characters in Mistborn can dodge coins without atium, that is impossible if they are moving at speeds like 100 m/s, humans don't have reaction speeds.

Edit 2:  This thread goes to details about physics of steelpushes (specifically about how inconsistent the presentation is), so I think it is best to simply take what is in books and WoBs as limit on behavior.

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

29 minutes ago, therunner said:

True, I did. Sorry about that.

I think steelpushes behave kinda weirdly, so it is possible.

And again, 6000 joules is barely able to crack a section. Sure greater pressure would help, but that is not guaranteed, Shardhammers are weapon of choice against Shardbearers if you don't have Shardblade, suggesting that area of impact is not as relevant, as based on description it is literally just a gigantic hammer.

Not the entire way, there is finite range (e.g. coins stop being pushable at 15 meters), and the further away the weaker the push. We have no idea how it falls off though.

You are free to think that.

But the books I don't think support steel being anywhere near as powerful as you suggest.

Pewter sprint is only a bit faster than galloping horse, which is at most 50 km/h in horses specifically raised for that. So pewtersprint is at best that, more likely lower like 45 km/h.

Based on sizes of dominance and her travel time, I think she must have travelled about ~100 km/h if I remember right.

Yeah, but the problem is aerodynamics. Drag grows with square of velocity, so to get small object to that kinetic energy will require more work than to get Vin to that speed.

And yeah, heavier Mistborn would have to work harder to get to those speeds, or more likely, would not be able to reach Vin's speed because they are heavier.

That is not how it would work. Aerodynamics will be quite relevant and Mistborn has to overcome aerodynamic drag, the power needed to overcome drag grows with third power of the velocity. 

Additionally, Vin clearly is not throwing those horseshoes at 111 m/s in those scenes, so we can comfortably say that is not happening, perhaps there is some odd asymmetry because Spiritual shenanigans.

Size seems to matter more than mass of the object. No one describes different metals having differently strong lines (so far at least).
But differently sized objects do have different lines.

But at the end of the day, if steel could do what you say it can, both Eras would look different. Wax would not have to bother with a gun, since his Steelpushes would drive bullets faster than that, wooden shields could not stop those coins, etc.
 

So if she is traveling 100km/hr then it only means she is generating even more energy on those pushes.  

It could also be that she is using more controlled pushes and pulls and that the amount of metal does make a difference. Zane was able to hover with his steel.  So it is a titratable thing. She could be pulling themselves to her at a smaller rate than pushing out. She could be flaring and pushing harder as she senses the resistance. 

I don't think any metals other than the enhancement metals have been shown as an on or off thing. Brandon makes it pretty clear that every other metal works on a sliding scale and that the allomancer has the ability to adjust that.  Hense my thoughts that for a 2.5lb horse shoe that amount of energy to push herself at that speed is the same energy she would be able to place on that horseshoe in the opposite direction. 

For him to be so focused on the idea that the force has an opposite reaction I would say that the steel pushing battles are perfect examples of the energy transferring. Vin doesn't go flying just because she is smaller. She goes flying in her push battle with kelsier because he is generating more energy.  

Also the whole draw of mistborn vs mistborn combat is that they keep up with eachother and make a good race out of it no matter how much they weigh.  I don't think Kelsier would have a difficult time keeping pace with her if he learned her horse shoe trick (granted he had his own tricks and fine control of steel and iron as does Wax have his own tricks).  But the energy needed would have to be different. 

As for why Wax uses guns and not just bullet sized ball bearings?  I honestly don't know. Maybe it is convenience. Maybe it is to spare his steel?  He still uses casings to launch himself around Elendel with steel which is interesting as he doesn't seem to be moving at a snails pace compared to the 2.5lbs of metal but he also elects to using his shotgun to maneuver himself around at lighter weights which is also interesting.  

There is very limited following of any sort of rules with steel and iron.  Trying to follow any rules is sure to find a spot where they don't jive well with eachother.  

So where is the middle section?  

Anything smaller than the human using the power is limited to the energy a coin can be shot at and therefore a 3lb ball of metal is more effective being thrown by a pewter arm than shot by a coinshot? 

I don't know that physics can ever solve this. Shooting a .22 at shardplate is the same as shooting a .50bmg at shardplate unless Wax is using it in which case it could be infinitely stronger than either of those options but still takes 2-3 shots to crack plate because a steel push can increase the energy of even a bullet moving well past the speed of sound. 

However erase all of that because Kaladin can fall forward with a super drop kick breaking all of the bones in his lower body and break 4 pieces of plate at once even counting the crumple effect of his suicidal maneuver, sparing precisely the amount of stormlight needed to heal himself enough to still fight but not be able to survive another hit. 

There really is no consistency at all.  Which sort of infuriates me.  

Edit: it is the examples in text that have no consistency by the way. I am enjoying the discussion. I just don't think there is any in-between.  You can launch a 200lb man 100m/s but a 17lb shotput is limited to the same energy potential of a 10gram coin. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[therunner]

Quote

As for why Wax uses guns and not just bullet sized ball bearings?  I honestly don't know. Maybe it is convenience. Maybe it is to spare his steel?  He still uses casings to launch himself around Elendel with steel which is interesting as he doesn't seem to be moving at a snails pace compared to the 2.5lbs of metal but he also elects to using his shotgun to maneuver himself around at lighter weights which is also interesting.  

Or its simply because guns are more powerful than pushes, as the narrative repeatedly shows in both Eras.

Quote

Anything smaller than the human using the power is limited to the energy a coin can be shot at and therefore a 3lb ball of metal is more effective being thrown by a pewter arm than shot by a coinshot? 

Could be. Or Coinshot can fire it that fast, who knows.

Quote

I don't know that physics can ever solve this. Shooting a .22 at shardplate is the same as shooting a .50bmg at shardplate unless Wax is using it in which case it could be infinitely stronger than either of those options but still takes 2-3 shots to crack plate because a steel push can increase the energy of even a bullet moving well past the speed of sound. 

Exactly, and if physics cannot solve it, then we must take only what we see in books as true and extrapolate only a little bit (or for fun).
In the books (and WoBs):

• Mistborn/Coinshot are not capable of firing projectile anywhere near 100m/s.Tens of meters per second at best.
• Guns are better than at shooting than Coinshots alone.
• Sharplate resists bullets well (I would say at least as well as Roseite Golem, which took machine gun fire without issue), but Crasher with a Gun (i.e. Wax) can with appropriate ammunition break sections in few shots.

From the above three points, it is rather clear that Mistborn/Coinshot is incapable of damaging Shardplate with Steelpushes alone.

Quote

However erase all of that because Kaladin can fall forward with a super drop kick breaking all of the bones in his lower body and break 4 pieces of plate at once even counting the crumple effect of his suicidal maneuver, sparing precisely the amount of stormlight needed to heal himself enough to still fight but not be able to survive another hit. 

Yup. And he had energy in tens of kilojoules to do that, which puts certain limits on what can and cannot break Plate.
Theoretically, heavy anti-material rifles do produce that amount of energy (at the moment they are fired), so basically Plate is more resistant than a tank (which is inline with it being 'magic powered armor').

Modern assault rifles for example produce barely ~2000 joules, far below that.

Quote

Edit: it is the examples in text that have no consistency by the way. I am enjoying the discussion. I just don't think there is any in-between.  You can launch a 200lb man 100m/s but a 17lb shotput is limited to the same energy potential of a 10gram coin. 

Yeah, the inconsistency sucks. But we have to abide by what happens in-world, that constraints what is possible. And in-world Steelpushing cannot move objects that fast.

Edited September 18, 2023 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

6 minutes ago, therunner said:

Or its simply because guns are more powerful than pushes, as the narrative repeatedly shows in both Eras.

Could be. Or Coinshot can fire it that fast, who knows.

Exactly, and if physics cannot solve it, then we must take only what we see in books as true and extrapolate only a little bit (or for fun).
In the books (and WoBs):

• Mistborn/Coinshot are not capable of firing projectile anywhere near 100m/s.Tens of meters per second at best.
• Guns are better than at shooting than Coinshots alone.
• Sharplate resists bullets well (I would say at least as well as Roseite Golem, which took machine gun fire without issue), but Crasher with a Gun (i.e. Wax) can with appropriate ammunition break sections in few shots.

From the above three points, it is rather clear that Mistborn/Coinshot is incapable of damaging Shardplate with Steelpushes alone.

Yup. And he had energy in tens of kilojoules to do that, which puts certain limits on what can and cannot break Plate.
Theoretically, heavy anti-material rifles do produce that amount of energy (at the moment they are fired), so basically Plate is more resistant than a tank (which is inline with it being 'magic powered armor').

Modern assault rifles for example produce barely ~2000 joules, far below that.

Yeah, the inconsistency sucks. But we have to abide by what happens in-world, that constraints what is possible. And in-world Steelpushing cannot move objects that fast.

I think the best option any one from Scadrial has against plate is to unlock iron compounding and either steel running or pewter allomancy to quickly grapple the shardbearer and then tapp millions upon millions of lbs whilst sitting on top of them.  No punching allowed just be strictly above them and tap everything. You have 0 change of building any type of momentum as iron is not allowed to increase strength or energy when moved in any manner other than where gravity is currently pulling you. 

Eh it breaks my heart. Pewter arms just need to throw bowlingballs or boulders.  Honestly better than using steel no matter the load out. A rock can crack plate better than a bullet.  

Still I argue that the type of loadout matter on your ammunition.  I would not show up to a fight against a shardbearer with a modern day infantry weapon. Grab the .50 cal or the 700 nitro and use one or two mega shots carrying 6-10x the energy of a single shot from some weak nato round.  

Still won't be enough to match Kaladins drop kick. Or a casual poke from a shardspear.  

Ugh. 

[therunner]

6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think the best option any one from Scadrial has against plate is to unlock iron compounding and either steel running or pewter allomancy to quickly grapple the shardbearer and then tapp millions upon millions of lbs whilst sitting on top of them.  No punching allowed just be strictly above them and tap everything. You have 0 change of building any type of momentum as iron is not allowed to increase strength or energy when moved in any manner other than where gravity is currently pulling you.

I think a big-ass gun is the best option

But with Hemalurgy as it is now, they won't get any Compounding, not unless someone is  born that way.

6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Eh it breaks my heart. Pewter arms just need to throw bowlingballs or boulders.  Honestly better than using steel no matter the load out. A rock can crack plate better than a bullet. 

Those rocks still barely cracked the plate, so who knows maybe bullets will be at least the same level of damage.

6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Still I argue that the type of loadout matter on your ammunition.  I would not show up to a fight against a shardbearer with a modern day infantry weapon. Grab the .50 cal or the 700 nitro and use one or two mega shots carrying 6-10x the energy of a single shot from some weak nato round. 

Yeah, that is the level of energy that should be able to at least crack a section to reasonable level if you land a hit.

Basically, take something you would use to fire through engine block of a truck, or armored vehicle. Because Radiants or Shardbearers are not infantry, they are mechanized units for all intents and purposes (they even require fuel!).

6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Still won't be enough to match Kaladins drop kick.

Well, those bullets would match that (and perhaps exceed if pressure does play a role). And you could do it again quickly, unlike Kaladin.

6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Or a casual poke from a shardspear. 

Well yeah, Invested weaponry is something else. Shardblades did inspire Nightblood.

But yeah, if you have armor made out of literal Godmetal, It is not surprising it will be resilient as all hell.

Edited September 18, 2023 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

30 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think a big-ass gun is the best option

But with Hemalurgy as it is now, they won't get any Compounding, not unless someone is  born that way.

Those rocks still barely cracked the plate, so who knows maybe bullets will be at least the same level of damage.

Yeah, that is the level of energy that should be able to at least crack a section to reasonable level if you land a hit.

Basically, take something you would use to fire through engine block of a truck, or armored vehicle. Because Radiants or Shardbearers are not infantry, they are mechanized units for all intents and purposes (they even require fuel!).

Well, those bullets would match that (and perhaps exceed if pressure does play a role). And you could do it again quickly, unlike Kaladin.

Well yeah, Invested weaponry is something else. Shardblades did inspire Nightblood.

But yeah, if you have armor made out of literal Godmetal, It is not surprising it will be resilient as all hell.

Do you think that awakening a shardhammer would make it more effective at cracking plate than even a shardblade?  

Shardblades are great at cutting souls and sweeping through live fleshy folks with ease taking out many in a single swipe. They also carry the benefit of being invested which allows them to damage shardplate well even if blades are not designed to chip into armor well. 

Given that a shardhammed is designed for armored opponents do you think that awakening one would channel that investiture to do that job even better than it already does or would it just bring it up to where the shardblade is at damaging plate?  I assume that a shardhammer would struggle to effortlessly mow down a file of enemies the way a shardblade does but maybe the investiture would allow you to push more?  

Or do you think the investiture to awaken a shardhammer is totally wasted for everything except to make it resistant to a shardblade in that it won't be cut through so casually?  

[therunner]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do you think that awakening a shardhammer would make it more effective at cracking plate than even a shardblade? 

More effective than Shardblade? I don't think so. One, you can reshape Shardblade into big hammer. Two, even Awakened Shardhammer would not be as Invested as Shardblade.
One is Invested, the other is Investiture.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Or do you think the investiture to awaken a shardhammer is totally wasted for everything except to make it resistant to a shardblade in that it won't be cut through so casually?  

I would say the effectiveness would go Shardblade > Awakened Shardhammer > Shardhammer. So it would still be an upgrade.

Though perhaps some very complex command could allow it to be even better at this? If there is some weakness that can be exploited.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

More effective than Shardblade? I don't think so. One, you can reshape Shardblade into big hammer. Two, even Awakened Shardhammer would not be as Invested as Shardblade.
One is Invested, the other is Investiture.

I would say the effectiveness would go Shardblade > Awakened Shardhammer > Shardhammer. So it would still be an upgrade.

Though perhaps some very complex command could allow it to be even better at this? If there is some weakness that can be exploited.

Likely a better option if firearms are off the table is via awakening to awaken ropes or ribbons to sling these ultra heavy metal shots at the enemy. 

If Wax is able to push on bullets I would assume that a mix of being able to sling an 8 lb ball bearing through any means you would simply increase its effectiveness with a push vs a push alone.  

Vasher spoke of ropes slinging massive rocks and I sort of pictured them more like a trebuchet. 

Just for force and energy generations sake I figure I would ask your opinion.  

[therunner]

44 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Likely a better option if firearms are off the table is via awakening to awaken ropes or ribbons to sling these ultra heavy metal shots at the enemy.

Vasher spoke of ropes slinging massive rocks and I sort of pictured them more like a trebuchet. 

Would work, but it would probably work 'only' as a good sling. Slings top out at ~40 m/s, but powered by Awakened ropes it would probably be able to generate greater velocity. I think 100 m/s would be doable?

But I suspect it would need some construction at least to do this, as otherwise I am surprised we did not see any such slings in Warbreaker.

47 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If Wax is able to push on bullets I would assume that a mix of being able to sling an 8 lb ball bearing through any means you would simply increase its effectiveness with a push vs a push alone. 

Yeah, it should be more effective than push alone. Not as effective as bullet, but more effective than just pushing a coin/metallic ball.

Quote

Just for force and energy generations sake I figure I would ask your opinion.  

Thank you, I am honored

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

13 minutes ago, therunner said:

Would work, but it would probably work 'only' as a good sling. Slings top out at ~40 m/s, but powered by Awakened ropes it would probably be able to generate greater velocity. I think 100 m/s would be doable?

But I suspect it would need some construction at least to do this, as otherwise I am surprised we did not see any such slings in Warbreaker.

Yeah, it should be more effective than push alone. Not as effective as bullet, but more effective than just pushing a coin/metallic ball.

Thank you, I am honored

 

Sometimes I get worried I come across as confrontational.  

While I get heated around the subjects of shards and I desperately want to see a set of plate smashed to bits in a single hit... I also try hard to respect the books as they are written.  And thus I am in love with trying to take my limited knowledge of ballistics learned via hunting / reloading and archery and apply them to magic systems.  

I LOVE awakening but picturing it in my mind is a really difficult thing. In a way it is the most magical magic system that I have ever tried to picture.  Ropes coming to life and acting like arms.  

It makes me wonder how long the rope would need to be... like a longer sling will wing the shot further. Or a long sling set at the end of a long lever as seen with trebuchets and slingstaffs.  

But from an awakening sense... how fast will that rope move to send the projectile. How long does it have to be?  

In a random scenario where Wax is thrown onto another planet with no guns but access to beautiful ball bearings of many sizes... I picture a harness with a few long lengths of rope and the ends splayed open to make hundreds of tiny fingers.  The rope can grab a projectile and Wax can increase his weight to anchor down the entire contraption while the rope heaves it forward and then he can give it the extra punch by steel pushing it from that space. 

Honestly with a setup that allows him to use massive 4+kg ball bearings he could absolutely decimate things. 

Maybe more work than with the gun though part of me thinks that his ability with the gun is because he has built in lazer sights and when he swings it around the steel line is moving... he just pulls the trigger when it hovers over his target.  Totally cheating.

 

I have no idea the accuracy of an awakened sling. I bet it is far more accurate than a human slinging shot.  If awakened strip of cloth can snatch an arrow mid flight I have to assume the awakened appendage / spiritual eye coordination is about 100% dead on.  

 

Edit:   I don't hate myself trying to combine awakening with any other magic system as it appears to be wonderfully mobile and doesn't seem to be impacted by other magics so hence my working my way to it as well. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[therunner]

13 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Sometimes I get worried I come across as confrontational. 

I don't think you do
And honestly I worry the same some time. In any discussion with different viewpoints some level of confrontation is inevitable, but I think so long as we assume best intentions in the opponent and 'attack' only the arguments, then that is perfectly fine. Not for everyone sure, but so long as all sides are ok with it, it is polite to me.

13 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

While I get heated around the subjects of shards and I desperately want to see a set of plate smashed to bits in a single hit... I also try hard to respect the books as they are written. 

Honestly I kinda do too want to see it get broken like that. But I think the more resilient it is, the bigger the moment will be when it happens.
You know, if after ~10ish books of being basically unbreakable, it gets smashed in the climax like it is nothing it will be a huge moment.

Quote

And thus I am in love with trying to take my limited knowledge of ballistics learned via hunting / reloading and archery and apply them to magic systems. 

Reasonable approach, I do the same with my knowledge of physics.

Sadly we inevitably run into the problem that at the end of the day Cosmere is 'just' books, not an actual fully consistent universe. And so our attempts at in depth analysis run into a wall (like the discrepancy between the forces applied to coin vs Allomancer), because we look into it too deeply. It is still fun though

13 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I LOVE awakening but picturing it in my mind is a really difficult thing. In a way it is the most magical magic system that I have ever tried to picture.  Ropes coming to life and acting like arms. 

Yeah, Awakening is awesome, but quite 'soft' compared to others. At least AonDor is programming language, but Awakening basically requires 'Command', where heavy lifting is done by the magic.

And on top of that on one hand per WoB the Awakened material cannot do stuff it could not do on its own in reality (i.e. you cannot Awaken something to start burning for example), but it can move, which yeah those materials cannot do that.

But its fun, and it gave us Sword-Nimi.

13 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

It makes me wonder how long the rope would need to be... like a longer sling will wing the shot further. Or a long sling set at the end of a long lever as seen with trebuchets and slingstaffs.  

But from an awakening sense... how fast will that rope move to send the projectile. How long does it have to be? 

So the rope will have to move at least as fast as you want the projectile to go. Rotational movement (i.e. sling or trebuchet) are easiest way of achieving high speeds.
Longer rope will also help with that, since with the same angular velocity the velocity of the end of rope will be greater (v = r* \omega).

Theoretically the only limitations are:

1. The power output of the driving device.
2. Tensile strength of the rope.

1. is taken care of by the Breaths, but we have no idea of how much power output breath can provide. Theoretically though this could be increased by applying more Breaths.
So 2. is the only real limitation, where the maximum speed we can move the object with is limited by T_max = m*v_max^2/r, where T_max is tensile strength, r is the length of rope, m is the mass of the object we want to throw, and v_max is the maximum velocity for the given object with the given rope.

So we have v_max = sqrt(T_max*r/m). Taken e.g. 8 pound (~3.5kg) ball as you suggested above, and using nylon rope 6 mm thick which has tensile strength up to 90 MPa (or 90 Newton per mm^2), the strength of the particular rope being ~2500 Newton, with the length being e.g. 2 meters, we get max speed

V_max = sqrt(2500*2/3.5) = 37.7 m/s. Since it behave like a square root of the the quantities, if we want to 3x the speed to get to 100 m/s, we need to either increase the Tensile strength by a factor of 9, or increase length of rope by a factor of 9.

So, 18 meter long nylon rope  6mm thick can throw 3.5 kg ball at 100 m/s. Equivalently, 2 meter long nylon rope that is 5.4 cm thick can do the same.

So you need relatively large or long ropes to achieve this. But if Awakening strengthens the material (which is possible) than all of the above goes out the window, and we are back to 'it works because magic'.

(I use nylon since it was discovered in 1935 so Wax should live to see it).

13 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

In a random scenario where Wax is thrown onto another planet with no guns but access to beautiful ball bearings of many sizes... I picture a harness with a few long lengths of rope and the ends splayed open to make hundreds of tiny fingers.  The rope can grab a projectile and Wax can increase his weight to anchor down the entire contraption while the rope heaves it forward and then he can give it the extra punch by steel pushing it from that space. 

Honestly with a setup that allows him to use massive 4+kg ball bearings he could absolutely decimate things.

It would work, but the issue is that unlike with gun the projectile is unlikely to be between him and his target, so Wax would have difficult time pushing on it from the proper angle.

Trebuchet would throw things in arc, so Wax pushing on it would just get it higher. Sling would throw things from off to his side, so Wax pushing on it would push it off trajectory (which could be a good thing).

He would probably want shorter ropes for that reason, because if the stone is flung from a point ~18 meters from him, he cannot Push on it much, because of the angles.

And there will be a wind up time to get ropes to move that fast.

13 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Maybe more work than with the gun though part of me thinks that his ability with the gun is because he has built in lazer sights and when he swings it around the steel line is moving... he just pulls the trigger when it hovers over his target.  Totally cheating.

Steel line leads to the object not beyond it, so it would not hover over the target. And it would go slightly to the side than the muzzle anyway, since it goes from his center of self to the guns center of mass.

13 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I have no idea the accuracy of an awakened sling. I bet it is far more accurate than a human slinging shot.  If awakened strip of cloth can snatch an arrow mid flight I have to assume the awakened appendage / spiritual eye coordination is about 100% dead on. 

I would say actually Awakened sling would be rather imprecise, unless it is piggybacking on your senses.

Awakened objects do have some measure of life sense, but it seems that unless they have eyes they don't perceive distant objects, because they literally don't have how.

Frankly, that is the part of Awakening I have biggest issue, how can the objects perceive stuff around them, when they don't have any sensory apparatus? With living things they can have life sense sure, but non-living things?

13 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Edit:   I don't hate myself trying to combine awakening with any other magic system as it appears to be wonderfully mobile and doesn't seem to be impacted by other magics so hence my working my way to it as well. 

Yeah, Awakening synergies quite well because it basically just augments stuff or get it moving.

Edited September 19, 2023 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

I don't think you do
And honestly I worry the same some time. In any discussion with different viewpoints some level of confrontation is inevitable, but I think so long as we assume best intentions in the opponent and 'attack' only the arguments, then that is perfectly fine. Not for everyone sure, but so long as all sides are ok with it, it is polite to me.

Honestly I kinda do too want to see it get broken like that. But I think the more resilient it is, the bigger the moment will be when it happens.
You know, if after ~10ish books of being basically unbreakable, it gets smashed in the climax like it is nothing it will be a huge moment.

Reasonable approach, I do the same with my knowledge of physics.

Sadly we inevitably run into the problem that at the end of the day Cosmere is 'just' books, not an actual fully consistent universe. And so our attempts at in depth analysis run into a wall (like the discrepancy between the forces applied to coin vs Allomancer), because we look into it too deeply. It is still fun though

Yeah, Awakening is awesome, but quite 'soft' compared to others. At least AonDor is programming language, but Awakening basically requires 'Command', where heavy lifting is done by the magic.

And on top of that on one hand per WoB the Awakened material cannot do stuff it could not do on its own in reality (i.e. you cannot Awaken something to start burning for example), but it can move, which yeah those materials cannot do that.

But its fun, and it gave us Sword-Nimi.

So the rope will have to move at least as fast as you want the projectile to go. Rotational movement (i.e. sling or trebuchet) are easiest way of achieving high speeds.
Longer rope will also help with that, since with the same angular velocity the velocity of the end of rope will be greater (v = r* \omega).

Theoretically the only limitations are:

1. The power output of the driving device.
2. Tensile strength of the rope.

1. is taken care of by the Breaths, but we have no idea of how much power output breath can provide. Theoretically though this could be increased by applying more Breaths.
So 2. is the only real limitation, where the maximum speed we can move the object with is limited by T_max = m*v_max^2/r, where T_max is tensile strength, r is the length of rope, m is the mass of the object we want to throw, and v_max is the maximum velocity for the given object with the given rope.

So we have v_max = sqrt(T_max*r/m). Taken e.g. 8 pound (~3.5kg) ball as you suggested above, and using nylon rope 6 mm thick which has tensile strength up to 90 MPa (or 90 Newton per mm^2), the strength of the particular rope being ~2500 Newton, with the length being e.g. 2 meters, we get max speed

V_max = sqrt(2500*2/3.5) = 37.7 m/s. Since it behave like a square root of the the quantities, if we want to 3x the speed to get to 100 m/s, we need to either increase the Tensile strength by a factor of 9, or increase length of rope by a factor of 9.

So, 18 meter long nylon rope  6mm thick can throw 3.5 kg ball at 100 m/s. Equivalently, 2 meter long nylon rope that is 5.4 cm thick can do the same.

So you need relatively large or long ropes to achieve this. But if Awakening strengthens the material (which is possible) than all of the above goes out the window, and we are back to 'it works because magic'.

(I use nylon since it was discovered in 1935 so Wax should live to see it).

It would work, but the issue is that unlike with gun the projectile is unlikely to be between him and his target, so Wax would have difficult time pushing on it from the proper angle.

Trebuchet would throw things in arc, so Wax pushing on it would just get it higher. Sling would throw things from off to his side, so Wax pushing on it would push it off trajectory (which could be a good thing).

He would probably want shorter ropes for that reason, because if the stone is flung from a point ~18 meters from him, he cannot Push on it much, because of the angles.

And there will be a wind up time to get ropes to move that fast.

Steel line leads to the object not beyond it, so it would not hover over the target. And it would go slightly to the side than the muzzle anyway, since it goes from his center of self to the guns center of mass.

I would say actually Awakened sling would be rather imprecise, unless it is piggybacking on your senses.

Awakened objects do have some measure of life sense, but it seems that unless they have eyes they don't perceive distant objects, because they literally don't have how.

Frankly, that is the part of Awakening I have biggest issue, how can the objects perceive stuff around them, when they don't have any sensory apparatus? With living things they can have life sense sure, but non-living things?

Yeah, Awakening synergies quite well because it basically just augments stuff or get it moving.

Since I am hopeless at physics, I hope you don't mind me leveling another question at you.  

So an 8kg hammer (at least this is what the post I linked seemed to estimate a shardhammer as) could generate nearly 5k joules if moving 35m/s.  

We see that in world only shardbearers can weild that. And I imagine that shardplate would largely absorb any shock back to the user. 

Do you think a pewter allomancer could weild a shardhammer?  

I assume a jacked up pewter ferring could to a degree. 

What if you threw in some F steel... enough to double their speed and coincidentally double the speed with which they can swing it to 70m/s.  According to my super basic kinetic energy calculator it says that 8kg at 70m/s could produce 19600 joules. 

My question is this. Besides needing to crank up some form of investiture to save the shardhammer from deformity or even a catastrophic failure, what is going to happen to that feruchemist / mistings arms?   Say an Allomantic pewter/Feruchemical steel twinborn.  I know pewter will strengthen the bones to an extent but if all of that energy suddenly stops when it smashes into a piece of shardplate would it destroy the users arms? We saw what happened to Kaladins legs but I am not sure how much of that shardhammer would absorb that before reaching the arms.  It is described as having a haft the thickness of a man's wrists.  So I assume there is a lot of material there to work with. 

I assume this transference of energy back down the shaft is going to be an issue with every weapon you make.  Steel feruchemy is already super dangerous but how badly will the user be hurt and what are some ways you think that could be solved?  

Do you think Awakening and just jacking up the investiture in some gloves or in the weapon itself would offer a way to absorb what energy gets kicked back after a blunt strike that isn't specifically passing through the enemy?  

I think I remember that the shardblades did more damage to plate when swung like they meant it too.  

I feel like the calculator hints at doubling the speed = a 4x or more increase in kinetic energy. If it takes 2 strikes with a shardblade to crack plate would a single strike at twice the speed pretty much shatter that piece?  

Even at that you would probably have to deal with some form of recoil back into your arms so long as it doesn't pass straight through the enemy shard bearer right?  

My next question would simply be if you think that shardplate offers a special kind of energy absorbing benefit or if any cohesive armor would strengthen the structure of your body to reduce that?  

[therunner]

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Since I am hopeless at physics, I hope you don't mind me leveling another question at you. 

Not at all Though I might not always respond in timely manner.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So an 8kg hammer (at least this is what the post I linked seemed to estimate a shardhammer as) could generate nearly 5k joules if moving 35m/s.  

We see that in world only shardbearers can weild that. And I imagine that shardplate would largely absorb any shock back to the user.

Shardhammers are much more heavy than 8 kgs. Its transported on carts, and two people can barely lift it, much less wield it. I would put its weight at 60 kg at minimum.

So it would generate far greater kinetic energy and force.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do you think a pewter allomancer could weild a shardhammer? 

When burning pewter they could barely lift it, when flaring they could probably wield it to some extant, but it would be too heavy to use properly. Like kid trying to swing adult hammer.
And momentum would complicate it, since the hammer would be considerable fraction of their own mass.

So ultimately, they could lift it, but not use it in actual combat, it would be too unwieldy for them.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I assume a jacked up pewter ferring could to a degree.

Plausibly yes, though at that point their own muscles would start to interfere with their movement options.
Basically they would have to tap to the level Sazed did in WoA, and maybe they could match Shardplate.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

What if you threw in some F steel... enough to double their speed and coincidentally double the speed with which they can swing it to 70m/s.  According to my super basic kinetic energy calculator it says that 8kg at 70m/s could produce 19600 joules.

Not sure if that would work.
We have quite pointedly never really seen F-Steel user throw anything, despite how useful it would be. Even Bleeder used guns.

So I suspect that similarly to how F-Iron does not increase strength of punches, F-Steel does not let you throw objects or swing them with the actual force it would imply. Basically it is better to think of F-steel in the sense that everything around F-steel user slows down, not that they are physically sped up (because otherwise they would be breaking everything around them all the time).

Or the objects will feel heavier to F-steel user, because their muscles still only generate the same force they are just magically sped up, so trying to get something moving as fast as them would be quite hard.

Frankly F-Steel is very busted, which i suspect is one of the reasons Brandon is avoiding it (and in-universe is very rare).

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

My question is this. Besides needing to crank up some form of investiture to save the shardhammer from deformity or even a catastrophic failure, what is going to happen to that feruchemist / mistings arms?   Say an Allomantic pewter/Feruchemical steel twinborn.  I know pewter will strengthen the bones to an extent but if all of that energy suddenly stops when it smashes into a piece of shardplate would it destroy the users arms? We saw what happened to Kaladins legs but I am not sure how much of that shardhammer would absorb that before reaching the arms.  It is described as having a haft the thickness of a man's wrists.  So I assume there is a lot of material there to work with.

While hammer would absorb some of the impact, flesh and bones are weaker than metal, so those would break first.

Try hitting something with a sword (even training one), if you put too much power into swing and hit something hard, you can break your thumb. At the very least you end up with bruises. So hands would suffer the worst of it, definitely soft tissue damage, quite possibly broken or dislocated bones.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I assume this transference of energy back down the shaft is going to be an issue with every weapon you make.  Steel feruchemy is already super dangerous but how badly will the user be hurt and what are some ways you think that could be solved? 

If they use Steel Feruchemy the damage would be much worse.

Honestly I don't see many ways to mitigate it without additional equipment, you hit something hard there will be back-reaction. You could add padding to haft, but that would not do much at these momenta.
Wearing gauntlet made out of something very sturdy and with padding inside would help, though it would interfere with F-Pewter , unless engineered to stretch (which would compromise its defensive capability however).

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do you think Awakening and just jacking up the investiture in some gloves or in the weapon itself would offer a way to absorb what energy gets kicked back after a blunt strike that isn't specifically passing through the enemy? 

Possibly? Though I would think that better than gloves would be sort of 'half-mech', basically reinforced armor that is Awakened to act like mechanical armor that augments strength.
Then you can boost strength, and it is the armor/its construction that takes brunt of the damage.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think I remember that the shardblades did more damage to plate when swung like they meant it too. 

Yeah, they do.  Just poking Shardplate won't do much, swinging it will crack section, and how much depends on the power of the swing.

So Shardblade wielded by someone in Shardplate is more effective against Shardplate than just Shardblade alone.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I feel like the calculator hints at doubling the speed = a 4x or more increase in kinetic energy.

Yeah, kinetic energy grows with square of velocity. So double the speed, you 4x the kinetic energy.

Quote

If it takes 2 strikes with a shardblade to crack plate would a single strike at twice the speed pretty much shatter that piece? 

I would say no actually. We have never seen section be shattered with a single strike, it always took at least two.
Now that does not make it impossible, but it is interesting.

I would say that that second strike would get it to the point were any additional impact would shatter that section. But it could just as easily fully shatter it.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Even at that you would probably have to deal with some form of recoil back into your arms so long as it doesn't pass straight through the enemy shard bearer right? 

Yep.
And Shardplate sections explode into molten metal outwards, implying that to some extent the follow-through of the swing would encounter resistance.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

My next question would simply be if you think that shardplate offers a special kind of energy absorbing benefit or if any cohesive armor would strengthen the structure of your body to reduce that?  

Any armor helps somewhat, simply because there is more material to absorb blows.

But Shardplate definitely absorbs basically all of that force. You are aware of it, but it does not harm the body. It seems to attenuate any sensory input in such a way that user detects it, but it is not unpleasant (e.g. blows will be felt, but won't hurt; yet fingers have ability to feel fine details and sensation. Lighting strikes are actively blocked out via the visor, so that user can see clearly despite it, and noise is also lessened (we see that with Adolin on WoR)).

Like I said, Shardplate is closer to powered armor or mech suit than any medieval armor. It looks like that, but that is where similarities end.
It improves at least some senses, speed, strength and reflexes of the user, in addition to its protective abilities.

Sidenote: I am extremely excited for SA5, because we will (presumably) finally see Living Shardplate in action to see its limits, now that Kaladin has one.

Edited September 19, 2023 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

20 minutes ago, therunner said:

Not at all Though I might not always respond in timely manner.

Shardhammers are much more heavy than 8 kgs. Its transported on carts, and two people can barely lift it, much less wield it. I would put its weight at 60 kg at minimum.

So it would generate far greater kinetic energy and force.

When burning pewter they could barely lift it, when flaring they could probably wield it to some extant, but it would be too heavy to use properly. Like kid trying to swing adult hammer.
And momentum would complicate it, since the hammer would be considerable fraction of their own mass.

So ultimately, they could lift it, but not use it in actual combat, it would be too unwieldy for them.

Plausibly yes, though at that point their own muscles would start to interfere with their movement options.
Basically they would have to tap to the level Sazed did in WoA, and maybe they could match Shardplate.

Not sure if that would work.
We have quite pointedly never really seen F-Steel user throw anything, despite how useful it would be. Even Bleeder used guns.

So I suspect that similarly to how F-Iron does not increase strength of punches, F-Steel does not let you throw objects or swing them with the actual force it would imply. Basically it is better to think of F-steel in the sense that everything around F-steel user slows down, not that they are physically sped up (because otherwise they would be breaking everything around them all the time).

Or the objects will feel heavier to F-steel user, because their muscles still only generate the same force they are just magically sped up, so trying to get something moving as fast as them would be quite hard.

Frankly F-Steel is very busted, which i suspect is one of the reasons Brandon is avoiding it (and in-universe is very rare).

While hammer would absorb some of the impact, flesh and bones are weaker than metal, so those would break first.

Try hitting something with a sword (even training one), if you put too much power into swing and hit something hard, you can break your thumb. At the very least you end up with bruises. So hands would suffer the worst of it, definitely soft tissue damage, quite possibly broken or dislocated bones.

If they use Steel Feruchemy the damage would be much worse.

Honestly I don't see many ways to mitigate it without additional equipment, you hit something hard there will be back-reaction. You could add padding to haft, but that would not do much at these momenta.
Wearing gauntlet made out of something very sturdy and with padding inside would help, though it would interfere with F-Pewter , unless engineered to stretch (which would compromise its defensive capability however).

Possibly? Though I would think that better than gloves would be sort of 'half-mech', basically reinforced armor that is Awakened to act like mechanical armor that augments strength.
Then you can boost strength, and it is the armor/its construction that takes brunt of the damage.

Yeah, they do.  Just poking Shardplate won't do much, swinging it will crack section, and how much depends on the power of the swing.

So Shardblade wielded by someone in Shardplate is more effective against Shardplate than just Shardblade alone.

Yeah, kinetic energy grows with square of velocity. So double the speed, you 4x the kinetic energy.

I would say no actually. We have never seen section be shattered with a single strike, it always took at least two.
Now that does not make it impossible, but it is interesting.

I would say that that second strike would get it to the point were any additional impact would shatter that section. But it could just as easily fully shatter it.

Yep.
And Shardplate sections explode into molten metal outwards, implying that to some extent the follow-through of the swing would encounter resistance.

Any armor helps somewhat, simply because there is more material to absorb blows.

But Shardplate definitely absorbs basically all of that force. You are aware of it, but it does not harm the body. It seems to attenuate any sensory input in such a way that user detects it, but it is not unpleasant (e.g. blows will be felt, but won't hurt; yet fingers have ability to feel fine details and sensation. Lighting strikes are actively blocked out via the visor, so that user can see clearly despite it, and noise is also lessened (we see that with Adolin on WoR)).

Like I said, Shardplate is closer to powered armor or mech suit than any medieval armor. It looks like that, but that is where similarities end.
It improves at least some senses, speed, strength and reflexes of the user, in addition to its protective abilities.

Sidenote: I am extremely excited for SA5, because we will (presumably) finally see Living Shardplate in action to see its limits, now that Kaladin has one.

I wonder what shardhammers are made from. I guess it wouldn't take a ton of volume to hit those weights with one seeing how much exponential growth a sphere has as it gets bigger and bigger. I assume the shaft must also be made of a fairly durable metal as well. At what I would imagine is a 3 inch in diameter shaft.  (I believe it describes it as bending and becoming useless for Dalinar at one point.)

Given that the energy gets to such bonkers levels when thinking about the size of needing 2 people to carry it I think it is another instance of Brandon going with the rule of cool and in writing it sounded awesome but it is really hard to explain yourself afterwords.  

If a 60kg shard hammer does less damage with a strike than Kaladins drop kick I wonder how it was that only kaladins legs broke. He honestly should have popped into a pile of goo. I really don't know how to accurately calculate a hammer swing but 60kg at 35m/s would be 36700 joules. Far above the 23800 you estimated kaladin used. Again I have no idea how to calculate a 60kg hammer as it isn't as simple as all of the mass hitting at once like a ball being thrown. But the hammer cracks a piece of plate where Kal broke 4 right?  

I see the shardhammer much the same way I see Dalinars catching the chasmfiend. It makes plate look incredible and rule of cool is awesome. But then we find out chasm fiends have a spren bond to make themselves magnitudes lighter than they should be for their size out of necessity and want to breathe. 

Saying 2 people needed to carry it to him could have been largely in part because of the terrible balancing issues a hammer that large must have. Like moving a super awkward piece of furniture.  Not saying it couldn't be that large but it would be very difficult to move a hammer shaped that way even if it was half that weight. 

 

Anyways I am trying to process how the plate might work out and I think I may have an idea but I will make a new thread to grab more eyes.  I think 22 posts back and forth between the same 2 people may be less welcoming when I know I have gone so far off topic. 

[therunner]

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I wonder what shardhammers are made from. I guess it wouldn't take a ton of volume to hit those weights with one seeing how much exponential growth a sphere has as it gets bigger and bigger. I assume the shaft must also be made of a fairly durable metal as well. At what I would imagine is a 3 inch in diameter shaft.  (I believe it describes it as bending and becoming useless for Dalinar at one point.)

Well mass grows with cube of the average linear size, so if you double hammer in every dimension, its weight will grow 8x.

100 kg of iron is 120x10x10 cm slab, 60 kg would be something like 72x10x10, the shaft would probably weight at least 10 kg as well. So it is possible the Shardhammer was more like ~80-100 kg in weight.
Steel would be a bit lighter, but the difference is few percent at most.

So yeah, Shardhammers are heavy.

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Given that the energy gets to such bonkers levels when thinking about the size of needing 2 people to carry it I think it is another instance of Brandon going with the rule of cool and in writing it sounded awesome but it is really hard to explain yourself afterwords. 

Yeah, basically it is like Koloss swords, they are waay too large.
And Vin would be unable to wield them at all, just because of the momentum.

But it is cool

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If a 60kg shard hammer does less damage with a strike than Kaladins drop kick I wonder how it was that only kaladins legs broke. He honestly should have popped into a pile of goo.

Nah, it was not that bad. Kaladin fell with speed human on earth would attain after falling only ~22 meters.

Which yeah, it is unlikely to be survivable for normal human (but there are cases of that). But as we saw with Miles in AoL, healing starts immediately after damage is done, so Kaladin was actively healing as he impacted. So as his legs were breaking, Stormlight was also putting them back together. Of course Stormlight was overwhelmed, and his legs were broken.

So just by the virtue of healing, Radiant can probably withstand more than normal human without showing damage (technically the damage is done, but it is healed basically immediately).

4 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

 I really don't know how to accurately calculate a hammer swing but 60kg at 35m/s would be 36700 joules. Far above the 23800 you estimated kaladin used.

Frankly, I don't think you can swing hammer that fast. Swords can be swung at ~20 m/s (https://swordstem.com/2018/08/22/how-fast-do-swords-move-try-1/), and hammer would be slower than that due to how its mass is distributed.

I think the hammer can be swung at ~15 m/s at best. For even 100 kg Shardhammer that results in kinetic energy of just ~11 000 joules, so less than half of Kaladin's fall.

4 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

 Again I have no idea how to calculate a 60kg hammer as it isn't as simple as all of the mass hitting at once like a ball being thrown.

It is basically the same, in the ball the mass is also technically not hitting at once either. The differences because of this are waay beyond what we can do, and other stuff (like deformation of the objects) would start coming into play sooner, I think.

4 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

But the hammer cracks a piece of plate where Kal broke 4 right? 

I don't remember hammer being used so I cannot comment.
But yeah Kaladin did crack 3 or 4 pieces.

4 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I see the shardhammer much the same way I see Dalinars catching the chasmfiend. It makes plate look incredible and rule of cool is awesome. But then we find out chasm fiends have a spren bond to make themselves magnitudes lighter than they should be for their size out of necessity and want to breathe.

True, but even lighter than they should be, Chasmfiend is still massive. Without madras they would weight in the neighborhood of hundreds of tons (they are 6 meters wide, 12 meters tall, and 24 meters long at least). They just need to make themselves light enough to not crush themselves, which basically means to get their mass grow less with size.
Since we don't know structural properties of their bodies it is difficult to estimate how the weight should behave, but I would say that Chasmfiend still weights dozens of tons at least.

I would also note that even in-universe, catching Chasmfiend foreclaw like that was a bit of a wtf moment, so its not like it was casual moment.

And as stated above, Shardhammer (while rule of cool influenced) won't move as fast as you think.

4 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Saying 2 people needed to carry it to him could have been largely in part because of the terrible balancing issues a hammer that large must have. Like moving a super awkward piece of furniture.  Not saying it couldn't be that large but it would be very difficult to move a hammer shaped that way even if it was half that weight.

No it was stated they could barely lift it, and is being transported on carts because of the weight.

Hammers are relatively good shape to carry, as most of the weight is in the hammerhead itself. And if the hammer head is large enough for both hands, you can carry it like that.