Is redemption possible for Szeth?

[SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him]

Well he has Nightblood at the moment and if he 'unlocks' Nightblood, so that he is not stuck in the past, then I would personally absolve him of all past crimes. He hasn't really done all that much 'evil'. Dalinar's history is far more bloody than his, remember that Dalinar pretty much single handedly conquered Alethkar, Szeth's killed what, 200 people? Not that much comparatively.

[Ketek]

Well he has Nightblood at the moment and if he 'unlocks' Nightblood, so that he is not stuck in the past, then I would personally absolve him of all past crimes. He hasn't really done all that much 'evil'. Dalinar's history is far more bloody than his, remember that Dalinar pretty much single handedly conquered Alethkar, Szeth's killed what, 200 people? Not that much comparatively.

 

True. But Dalinar faced his targets in open combat, in 'clean' and 'honest' warfare, you could say. To the Alethi, it would be more honorable. As for Szeth? He's arguably caused more upheaval - not only did he cause the Vengeance Pact to happen, he also was a direct cause as to why Jah Keved fell. He may have killed less with his own hands, but his actions have likely led to more deaths than Dalinar's actions did (granted, we don't know much about the Blackthorn's past as well).

[SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him]

True. But Dalinar faced his targets in open combat, in 'clean' and 'honest' warfare, you could say. To the Alethi, it would be more honorable. As for Szeth? He's arguably caused more upheaval - not only did he cause the Vengeance Pact to happen, he also was a direct cause as to why Jah Keved fell. He may have killed less with his own hands, but his actions have likely led to more deaths than Dalinar's actions did (granted, we don't know much about the Blackthorn's past as well).

Fair point, but it doesn't really matter. He is far too skilled a fighter for him to be punished for his crimes. Dalinar and Elhokar will be more or less forced to absolve him of his crimes. The Desolation has come and they will need every warrior that they can get their hands on.

The only reason I can see them being able to kill him is if Nightblood is not accepted as a proper substitute for a Nahel-Bond.

[hoser he/him]

Exactly. Remember, cultural influences can be very pervasive; like I said, it's easy to condemn Szeth, but we don't have the context for it. The man is totally stormed up - if anything, I'd say the stone shamans are far worse, knowing that they've subjugated a man, given him Surgebinding powers and (arguably) a blade that once belonged to their gods, or holy figures, and then let him loose to do as others wish of him.

 

 

 

Again, this is far too simplistic a judgment. We don't know if he 'meekly' submitted; for all we know the stone shamans may have coerced him with Surgebinding or some other magical ability yet to be revealed. Right now, all we know is that he was made Truthless for declaring that the Voidbringers had returned.

 

Until the third SA book comes out, there's really no way of telling whether Szeth is deserving of redemption.

As I said before, if you are willing to accept his subjective world and blame his cultural background, He gets an auto-pass.  It doesn't seem like a judgement process to me, but if it works for you and helps you enjoy the books, go for it.  Using the above logic, I don't see how anybody can be condemned. 

As long as we are collecting excuses to avoid assigning Szeth any responsibility, let's not forget Odium, the Unmade and Mr. T.  We don't know how Odium operates, but he seems very interested in Szeth's activities.  The "screaming" of his victims seems to be an Unmade phenomenon.  

<snarky sarcasm>As for my "far too simplistic" judgements,  I'm sorry for basing my judgements on what he says in his POV, rather than making up stories that lack any textual support. </snarky sarcasm> You do make a good point that there may be more relevant information, but if we are to make a judgement at this point, I would argue that we have to use what we have.  Certainly reserving judgement is a reasonable choice given that we don't have complete information. 

[Ketek]

As I said before, if you are willing to accept his subjective world and blame his cultural background, He gets an auto-pass.  It doesn't seem like a judgement process to me, but if it works for you and helps you enjoy the books, go for it.  Using the above logic, I don't see how anybody can be condemned. 

As long as we are collecting excuses to avoid assigning Szeth any responsibility, let's not forget Odium, the Unmade and Mr. T.  We don't know how Odium operates, but he seems very interested in Szeth's activities.  The "screaming" of his victims seems to be an Unmade phenomenon.  

<snarky sarcasm>As for my "far too simplistic" judgements,  I'm sorry for basing my judgements on what he says in his POV, rather than making up stories that lack any textual support. </snarky sarcasm> You do make a good point that there may be more relevant information, but if we are to make a judgement at this point, I would argue that we have to use what we have.  Certainly reserving judgement is a reasonable choice given that we don't have complete information. 

 

I'm not giving him an auto-pass; I'm just stating that there are things we don't know of yet, and given that it's better to just wait and see. No need to be snarky. Also, your comparison to Mr. T/Odium/The Unmade is somewhat inaccurate - I agree with Shaggai's likening of Szeth to a child soldier (oddly apt since Szeth resembles a child). The aforementioned three seemed to have had a choice in walking away or becoming what they are (Hoid said Rayse was what he had chose to become, Mr. T sought out the Nightwatcher, I can't quite say the same for the Unmade however).

 

And btw, if anyone remembers, Nalan mentions that Szeth kept his word - think it's a typical Sanderson big-but-subtle hint as to how Szeth ended up Truthless...

[Ketek]

Fair point, but it doesn't really matter. He is far too skilled a fighter for him to be punished for his crimes. Dalinar and Elhokar will be more or less forced to absolve him of his crimes. The Desolation has come and they will need every warrior that they can get their hands on.

The only reason I can see them being able to kill him is if Nightblood is not accepted as a proper substitute for a Nahel-Bond.

 

I can agree with this, yeah. But I don't think they can officially absolve him of it - it'd be essentially admitting that the Vengeance Pact was all for nothing, and given the unrest in Alethi society right now, it'd be downright political suicide. The king (and the Radiants) need to appear unbiased and just if they're to unite everyone. Letting Szeth go would seem hypocritical to many.

[Guest]

Fair point, but it doesn't really matter. He is far too skilled a fighter for him to be punished for his crimes. Dalinar and Elhokar will be more or less forced to absolve him of his crimes. The Desolation has come and they will need every warrior that they can get their hands on.

The only reason I can see them being able to kill him is if Nightblood is not accepted as a proper substitute for a Nahel-Bond.

 

I don't think they are so desperate to find good fighters they would pardon a convicted criminal..... Szeth is responsible for a country going to war for 6 years, he murdered the king and in most countries, murdering the leading figure is much more terrible crime then murdering any other person. Szeth is also responsible for a civil war in Jah Keved...

 

Pardoning such a man is just not possible, unless someone very high placed is willing to speak for him. Perhaps if they prove he was brainwashed and not in control of himself, but it is not the case.

[Nakafre]

At this point, I'm not so much concerned with the interaction between Szeth and the Alethi - although I'm sure we'll get to that at some point and will very much look forward to it.  I'm more immediately curious to understand the Shin culture and the Stone Shamans.  There have been some very good points made to Szeth's character (good and bad). And as pointed out earlier, we are currently at a disadvantage in that we have to make current judgement based on insufficient evidence.  

 

I want to see how Brandon connects Szeth's desire  to uphold his position as Truthless with his inner turmoil with the actions this forces him to make.  It seems as though his madness has developed over the course of the first two books due to this inner turmoil. Brandon is very good at making seemingly unlikable/evil characters, sympathetic and, personally, I think there must be more to the Oathstone than it being a random rock to which the Stone Shamans decided he must be attached.  Could this be a partial connection to "Stones Unhallowed"?  They definitely have a thing for stone/rocks.

[Shaggai]

I don't think they are so desperate to find good fighters they would pardon a convicted criminal..... Szeth is responsible for a country going to war for 6 years, he murdered the king and in most countries, murdering the leading figure is much more terrible crime then murdering any other person. Szeth is also responsible for a civil war in Jah Keved...

 

Pardoning such a man is just not possible, unless someone very high placed is willing to speak for him. Perhaps if they prove he was brainwashed and not in control of himself, but it is not the case.

You don't think they would be desperate? They're facing the Final storming Desolation. Humanity barely survived the past ones, and back then they had the Heralds and far more Radiants. This Desolation is probably going to be worse than any of the previous ones, and they have what, five Radiants, plus an insane dude who may or may not be one of the Heralds. It's hard to get more desperate than that.

 

Of course, they're still unlikely to pardon Szeth. Dalinar might, if he thought it would help unite people, but as it stands, his and Kaladin's honor will prevent them from pardoning Szeth. I expect Szeth to be redeemed by fighting the Voidbringers without help from the Kholins.

[Guest]

You don't think they would be desperate? They're facing the Final storming Desolation. Humanity barely survived the past ones, and back then they had the Heralds and far more Radiants. This Desolation is probably going to be worse than any of the previous ones, and they have what, five Radiants, plus an insane dude who may or may not be one of the Heralds. It's hard to get more desperate than that.

 

Well, I think it may take them a few books before getting desperate enough to pardon Szeth... I mean, he is only one man. There is only so much one man can do, even if it is Szeth. He may be a good fighter, but he is not a war leader and I suspect this is exactly what Dalinar and co will need. Generals, leaders on the field as Dalinar won't occupy this position anymore and Kaladin is very ill-suited for this. Szeth won't be much help on the matter.

 

 

Of course, they're still unlikely to pardon Szeth. Dalinar might, if he thought it would help unite people, but as it stands, his and Kaladin's honor will prevent them from pardoning Szeth. I expect Szeth to be redeemed by fighting the Voidbringers without help from the Kholins.

 

I think there is a higher chance of Kaladin pardoning Szeth than Dalinar... Szeth murdered Galivar and Galivar's death is what broke down Dalinar. The love/hate relationship Dalinar had with is brother is crucial to his character development. He was the younger sibling, always in the shadow of his older brother. Galivar was better than Dalinar at everything and I suspect he was also more handsome (as Elhokar is described as handsome and Dalinar is described as more or less ugly ). He got Navani, he got to be king, he got to be a leader all this with the help of Dalinar who died of envy while watching his brother's successes. He was even tempter to killed his own brother so yeah seing him being murdered must have been hard. Basically, what I am trying to say is for Dalinar to forgive Szeth would take a lot of introspection. He would need to come in terms with his past and I am not sure how ready he is for this.

[Shaggai]

Well, I think it may take them a few books before getting desperate enough to pardon Szeth... I mean, he is only one man. There is only so much one man can do, even if it is Szeth. He may be a good fighter, but he is not a war leader and I suspect this is exactly what Dalinar and co will need. Generals, leaders on the field as Dalinar won't occupy this position anymore and Kaladin is very ill-suited for this. Szeth won't be much help on the matter.

 

 

 

I think there is a higher chance of Kaladin pardoning Szeth than Dalinar... Szeth murdered Galivar and Galivar's death is what broke down Dalinar. The love/hate relationship Dalinar had with is brother is crucial to his character development. He was the younger sibling, always in the shadow of his older brother. Galivar was better than Dalinar at everything and I suspect he was also more handsome (as Elhokar is described as handsome and Dalinar is described as more or less ugly ). He got Navani, he got to be king, he got to be a leader all this with the help of Dalinar who died of envy while watching his brother's successes. He was even tempter to killed his own brother so yeah seing him being murdered must have been hard. Basically, what I am trying to say is for Dalinar to forgive Szeth would take a lot of introspection. He would need to come in terms with his past and I am not sure how ready he is for this.

The problem with that is that the Kholins are in extremely dire straits. If it were just "he killed my brother", the Desolation would easily overcome that. The only reason they wouldn't pardon him is honor. Or Honor, for that matter. Dalinar is the one with the "unite instead of divide" oath, so he's much more likely to forgive Szeth. He's got his own shadows in his past. Kaladin, on the other hand, is following a moral system based on the rightness of protecting others. By that standard, it's going to be much harder for him to forgive someone who's done what Szeth has done.

[Guest]

The problem with that is that the Kholins are in extremely dire straits. If it were just "he killed my brother", the Desolation would easily overcome that. The only reason they wouldn't pardon him is honor. Or Honor, for that matter. Dalinar is the one with the "unite instead of divide" oath, so he's much more likely to forgive Szeth. He's got his own shadows in his past. Kaladin, on the other hand, is following a moral system based on the rightness of protecting others. By that standard, it's going to be much harder for him to forgive someone who's done what Szeth has done.

 

But how can Dalinar forgive the one person who murdered his brother? He has been overcome by grief for more than 6 years because of this... Even if his oath says he has to unite instead of divide, how can he still forgive Szeth? I am not even convinced he has it in him to forgive Adolin let alone Szeth.

 

Kal, I think, would find it easier to accept someone willing to let go of his murderous ways and working towards protecting the right people. Szeth has no personal vendetta against Kal (well Kal sorta kill him, but it was not personal, Szeth never attacked anyone dear to Kal), therefore I think Kal may be able to look at things in an objective manner, unlike Dalinar who may look at them through the Blackthorn's eyes. I also think Kal may get a little less judgmental following his own failed attempt to murder Elhokar....

[soulcastJam he/him]

Is there such a thing as double jeopardy on Roshar?  I mean, Szeth has already been executed for his crimes.  What more do you want from him?  

[Guest]

Is there such a thing as double jeopardy on Roshar?  I mean, Szeth has already been executed for his crimes.  What more do you want from him?  

 

Well trialing him for his crime is one thing, welcoming him into your small KR team is another...

[Ketek]

Well, I think it may take them a few books before getting desperate enough to pardon Szeth... I mean, he is only one man. There is only so much one man can do, even if it is Szeth. He may be a good fighter, but he is not a war leader and I suspect this is exactly what Dalinar and co will need. Generals, leaders on the field as Dalinar won't occupy this position anymore and Kaladin is very ill-suited for this. Szeth won't be much help on the matter.

 

Well, I recall a monologue of Vin's from Mistborn about how every government needs a good assassin, and we know that Szeth, if nothing else, is extremely talented in killing people, although I'm not sure just how much his (potential) Skybreaker ideals would restrict him.

 

But how can Dalinar forgive the one person who murdered his brother? He has been overcome by grief for more than 6 years because of this... Even if his oath says he has to unite instead of divide, how can he still forgive Szeth? I am not even convinced he has it in him to forgive Adolin let alone Szeth.

 

Kal, I think, would find it easier to accept someone willing to let go of his murderous ways and working towards protecting the right people. Szeth has no personal vendetta against Kal (well Kal sorta kill him, but it was not personal, Szeth never attacked anyone dear to Kal), therefore I think Kal may be able to look at things in an objective manner, unlike Dalinar who may look at them through the Blackthorn's eyes. I also think Kal may get a little less judgmental following his own failed attempt to murder Elhokar....

 

Dalinar actually came to terms with it when fighting Szeth and realizing that he wouldn't have been able to save Gavilar anyway. But I think his oaths will prevent him from pardoning Szeth. Can you imagine the backlash if the Assassin in White were to suddenly join the Radiants?!

 

And um, Szeth did kill people in Bridge Four - Kaladin's pretty attached to them, remember? If anything, Dalinar would be more likely to pardon Szeth for the greater good. Kaladin would not, simply because he'd view the act as being wrong.

[Fatebreaker he/him]

I think it's definitely possible. Not in the perfect world sort of sense where everyone make up and become friends, but in a more realistic sense. Szeth owned the murders in the end. He took full responsibility. I doubt he wants to continue on the path of murder and assassination(even though he's superb at it and I want him to). There is also ways he could be extremely useful. While I agree he would bring a bad rep to the knights radiant, he could be utilized as a black opps( or white opps ) operative, which he would excel at, though he may not want to. And another way he could prove to be invaluable would be to tell them about Taravangian. That right there should earn him some slack. With Odium and the Everstorm and the voidbringers, Kal and co. might just have to suck it up and work with him.

 

But then again, Nalan may have his own ideas...

[Fatebreaker he/him]

And my own personal belief is that the epicness of his fight scenes redeemed him.

[Ketek]

I think it's definitely possible. Not in the perfect world sort of sense where everyone make up and become friends, but in a more realistic sense. Szeth owned the murders in the end. He took full responsibility. I doubt he wants to continue on the path of murder and assassination(even though he's superb at it and I want him to). There is also ways he could be extremely useful. While I agree he would bring a bad rep to the knights radiant, he could be utilized as a black opps( or white opps ) operative, which he would excel at, though he may not want to. And another way he could prove to be invaluable would be to tell them about Taravangian. That right there should earn him some slack. With Odium and the Everstorm and the voidbringers, Kal and co. might just have to suck it up and work with him.

 

But then again, Nalan may have his own ideas...

 

From the epilogue, I think it's safe to assume that Nalan intends for Szeth to assassinate the stone shamans, or whatever 'bringing justice to the Shin' means, so I doubt he'll be quitting anytime soon. And he wouldn't bring bad rep if people didn't know he was part of the Radiants. Personally, I doubt he'll cross over to their side anytime soon. 

[Nakafre]

From the epilogue, I think it's safe to assume that Nalan intends for Szeth to assassinate the stone shamans, or whatever 'bringing justice to the Shin' means, so I doubt he'll be quitting anytime soon. And he wouldn't bring bad rep if people didn't know he was part of the Radiants. Personally, I doubt he'll cross over to their side anytime soon. 

 

I can see his arc going in this direction.  His story has dealt so much with how as Truthless, he has influenced Roshar which brought him into contact with Dalinar, Kal and the rest.  His story will be centered around the Shin for the next book or two and be separate from the KR.  This provides good symmetry with Kal -  he has branched off and gone his own way. In terms of story, this obviously exposes us to greater Roshar and also the opportunity to learn about the Heralds and the Day of Recreance.  

 

The ends of WoR has set things up so that a lot will happen before/if there is a meeting between Szeth and the others.  And then, I just don't see Szeth going from a one-man-army to joining any group co-op. They may very well end up working towards the same goals, but I see this happening from different directions. If they were to come together during those efforts, then I could see them fighting alongside one another but not as a unified "team".

[kaellok he/him]

 

That's a very simplistic view; we simply don't enough about Shin culture to claim that Szeth is beyond redemption. It's all too easy to stand on the other side of the fence and condemn others, but we need the proper context before doing so. We don't know whether his life was threatened, whether his loved ones were used against him or not, and we don't know how much Shin culture perpetuates a paradigm of unquestioning obedience and loyalty.

 

When we know all this, we can judge whether Szeth is genuinely a horrible person, or whether he isn't. Right now, it's all up in the air.

My view is simple, but not simplistic.  If you are willing to take responsibility for your actions, but not willing to control them, then there is no mitigating factor to consider.  All Szeth had to do was tell Mr. T "no".  Let's assume that the Stone Shamanate is holding captive with threat of death everyone that Szeth has ever known or loved; what would realistically happen if Szeth refused to obey a command?  Would that person send a letter to the Shin, and let them know, so that all of Szeth's loved ones would be murdered?  Ridiculous.  Worse than ridiculous.

 

He had free will, and he gave it up to do evil deeds for an evil man.  His past is irrelevant, his reasons are irrelevant, his culture is irrelevant, literally everything is irrelevant--unless the stone itself forces commands upon him, like a geas.  Even then, we are shown how he fights back against the commands in no way, shape, or form once Mr. T gets the rock.  Not even by taking longer than strictly necessary, or giving warning before he attacks.

 

I'm interested to know more about Szeth and the Shin, but I cannot think of any way to make him sympathetic to me.  Free will is everything; without it, we are nothing.  And he gave it up.

[Guest]

My view is simple, but not simplistic.  If you are willing to take responsibility for your actions, but not willing to control them, then there is no mitigating factor to consider.  All Szeth had to do was tell Mr. T "no".  Let's assume that the Stone Shamanate is holding captive with threat of death everyone that Szeth has ever known or loved; what would realistically happen if Szeth refused to obey a command?  Would that person send a letter to the Shin, and let them know, so that all of Szeth's loved ones would be murdered?  Ridiculous.  Worse than ridiculous.

 

He had free will, and he gave it up to do evil deeds for an evil man.  His past is irrelevant, his reasons are irrelevant, his culture is irrelevant, literally everything is irrelevant--unless the stone itself forces commands upon him, like a geas.  Even then, we are shown how he fights back against the commands in no way, shape, or form once Mr. T gets the rock.  Not even by taking longer than strictly necessary, or giving warning before he attacks.

 

I'm interested to know more about Szeth and the Shin, but I cannot think of any way to make him sympathetic to me.  Free will is everything; without it, we are nothing.  And he gave it up.

 

I like your post. It is really defining Szeth as I am starting to see him: a religious fanatic. All religion have a few of these: people willing to let go of their free-will to commit atrocities for the promise of absolution or a good afterlife or these sort of things... I am thinking of the crusades or the suicide bombers or any religious mass massacres (history has a few of these) done for the name of a greater unseen good....

 

I believe we are also going to find out the Shin are very religious people and that their views are quite extreme. Fanatics, which would explain the internal dilemma of a guy, Szeth, who probably was a decent person to begin with.

 

The more I read about Szeth, the more I think this is were it is going.

Edited August 9, 2014 by maxal

[AerionBFII he/him]

Szeth honored the rituals and laws of his people! He didn't want to be a truthless (and was falsely made so)  but he persevered and it drove him to breaking point. I think he is a victim. He swore he would follow the orders of the owner of his Oath Stone and that is what he did.

 

I don't entirely miss anybody he killed anyway. I'm on Team Szeth on this one. Hope he takes his revenge.

[kari-no-sugata]

Szeth honored the rituals and laws of his people! He didn't want to be a truthless (and was falsely made so)  but he persevered and it drove him to breaking point. I think he is a victim. He swore he would follow the orders of the owner of his Oath Stone and that is what he did.

 

I don't entirely miss anybody he killed anyway. I'm on Team Szeth on this one. Hope he takes his revenge.

 

I would agree that he is a victim. His life has been hell recently and it has driven him insane. He never remotely wanted to do what he felt he was forced to do and now that he is free again he is entitled to seek revenge.

 

However, he is definitely also at fault. I think he would be getting a lot more sympathy is this happened to him when he was 10... but he was in his 30s when this all started. He doesn't seem to have any excuses that people in general could accept (that we know of). It's not like he absolves himself of blame, guilt or sin either. I doubt he'll be forgiving himself anytime soon.

 

If he brings those who wronged him to justice and then willingly turns himself in for the crimes he has committed then he could get redemption.

[Moogle]

If you are willing to take responsibility for your actions, but not willing to control them, then there is no mitigating factor to consider.  All Szeth had to do was tell Mr. T "no".  Let's assume that the Stone Shamanate is holding captive with threat of death everyone that Szeth has ever known or loved; what would realistically happen if Szeth refused to obey a command?  Would that person send a letter to the Shin, and let them know, so that all of Szeth's loved ones would be murdered?  Ridiculous.  Worse than ridiculous.

 

This seems to presume a lot of cultural background that I doubt Shinovar has.

 

Szeth was raised in a culture which does not seem to have a concept of "free will" that you're presuming (it seems to be based partially on some Asian cultures, which I believe are community-minded and less individualistic than we might like).

 

To look at the example of Bushido in samurai culture, loyalty to one's superiors was seen as one of the core virtues. Szeth was made Truthless, the lowest of the low, for fundamentally betraying Shin culture. He's supposed to follow the orders, no matter what he thinks of, of whoever holds his oathstone. This was what his culture has drilled into him. To disobey Taravangian was utterly wrong to him, as it would betray his honor.

 

Is it ridiculous from our perspective? Sure, but the guy deserves a break. If you were raised in Shin culture, you wouldn't spontaneously develop modern Western morality. He's suffered plenty and seems to me to be deserving of at least some pity.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Moogle

[Ketek]

This seems to presume a lot of cultural background that I doubt Shinovar has.

 

Szeth was raised in a culture which does not seem to have a concept of "free will" that you're presuming (it seems to be based partially on some Asian cultures, which I believe are community-minded and less individualistic than we might like).

 

To look at the example of Bushido in samurai culture, loyalty to one's superiors was seen as one of the core virtues. Szeth was made Truthless, the lowest of the low, for fundamentally betraying Shin culture. He's supposed to follow the orders, no matter what he thinks of, of whoever holds his oathstone. This was what his culture has drilled into him. To disobey Taravangian was utterly wrong to him, as it would betray his honor.

 

Is it ridiculous from our perspective? Sure, but the guy deserves a break. If you were raised in Shin culture, you wouldn't spontaneously develop modern Western morality. He's suffered plenty and seems to me to be deserving of at least some pity.

 

This. THIS. Thank you for the insight, Moogle.

 

And yes, Asian cultures are like that - I'm Chinese, and for us loyalty and respect (especially towards elders) is a must. You're viewed as a deviant if you don't conform. I speak from personal experience.

 

That is why I used the term 'simplistic'. It's all too easy to project one's own values onto Szeth. If anything, this only shows just how blank a character he is, bereft of an actual story. We need that before we can render judgment.