Is redemption possible for Szeth?

[Szeth-son-son-Vallano]

Now that he's presumably out of Taravangian's thumb and working for someone who inclines more to the lawful end of the spectrum, could his story go in that direction? I think he's got the right temperament for some redemption. He's always hated what he's forced himself to do, believing (or at least convincing himself) that he had no actual choice in the matter. He's still tormented by his evil deeds, but he's been given another chance at life all the same. I don't know, I think Szeth's story could take him on a slightly better road this time, or at least give him some introspection. He's been a straight anti-villain up until now, but this is the point where everything could change. I personally think he's been brought back to play a bigger role than just the dreaded monster for royal families to fear. 

 

But would any amount of repentance be enough? Could Kaladin or Dalinar or, well, anyone ever really forgive him for what he's done? Would Szeth even try to redeem his name in the first place?

[maxal]

Now that he's presumably out of Taravangian's thumb and working for someone who inclines more to the lawful end of the spectrum, could his story go in that direction? I think he's got the right temperament for some redemption. He's always hated what he's forced himself to do, believing (or at least convincing himself) that he had no actual choice in the matter. He's still tormented by his evil deeds, but he's been given another chance at life all the same. I don't know, I think Szeth's story could take him on a slightly better road this time, or at least give him some introspection. He's been a straight anti-villain up until now, but this is the point where everything could change. I personally think he's been brought back to play a bigger role than just the dreaded monster for royal families to fear. 

 

But would any amount of repentance be enough? Could Kaladin or Dalinar or, well, anyone ever really forgive him for what he's done? Would Szeth even try to redeem his name in the first place?

 

I believe Szeth may try to redeem himself, but frankly I don't see how he could do it. He is responsible for the death of several prominent high lords of Roshar, beloved Galivar included. I just cannot see Dalinar forgiving him that. Szeth would need to pull out something BIG to make himself worthy of Dalinar and truly join the Radiant. 

[Edgedancer]

It depends of what you think redemption is. He certainly could start to work for a good cause but he won´t be able to make up for all his crimes nor gain forgiveness from most of Roshar.

 

The fact that he is with the "Skybreakers" and will wield Nightblood has me rather persimistic for his development. Nalan will use Szeth as a tool just for a different cause. Namely murdering the Stoneshamans (which ought to make for some badass fight scenes). Is killing the Stoneshamans a good thing? I don´t know. We have next to no information on them. Although, them sending out Szeth as a Truthless for something that turned out to be right doesn´t paint them in a good light. Still, Nalan might only want to get his hands on the Honorblades and uses Szeth as a pretense.

 

Nightblood´s own very unhinged personality is rather unlikely to be healty for Szeth, convincing him that his victims are "evil" and that destroying them is okay.

 

Overall, I think that with his current situation it will be very hard to obtain something resembling redemption.

[Patrick Star]

...sorry guys, I couldn't resist a grumpy cat meme.  I think that it's a matter of him not trying.  If he does kill the Stone Shamans, he can kiss redemption good bye.

[kari-no-sugata]

I would say that it is possible... but really really hard.

 

I don't think being with Nalan is going to help, long term - if Szeth realises that Nalan is also wrong and must be opposed then I can see him getting redemption. (though I expect others will disagree with me here)

 

I think that Nightblood will help.

[Savanorn]

Eh, I'd give him a shot. 

 

I mean, all Szeth has done has largely been at the command of others...he was, how do you say, 'just following orders?'

 

Hrm.

[BreathTaker]

I actually think Nightblood will help him. Not all who break the law are evil and people who aren't evil aren't all the attracted to NB so maybe Szeth will draw Nightblood (I'm curious what NB does when fully drawn on Roshar because doesn't he do some crazy crap when drawn in Warbreaker?) to kill someone and Nightblood will refuse because they aren't evil thus helping Szeth understand that Skybreakers suck.

[hoser]

What do you mean by redemption?

 

There are so many aspects:

1. Clearing himself of guilt
2. Forgiving himself
3. Playing a positive role on Roshar
4. Becoming a Radiant
5. Dalinar's forgiveness
6. Kaladin's acceptance

1. Clearing himself of guilt - I'm with Patrick Star on this one.  He's been a fool, pure and simple.  He knew the shamans were wrong and allowed himself to be used by the Parshendi, Taravangium and apparently, Odium, in destructive ways. He knew better, but killed many innocents unnecessarily.  He's been the gollum of this story, but with the constant awareness that what he was doing was wrong, which makes it even worse, IMO.
2. Forgiving himself - purely subjective, depends on his evolution from here on out.
3. Playing a positive role on Roshar - If he is pivotal in restraining Odium and creating a more positive balance, then absolutely.  While his actions have been horrible on a personal level, it is unclear what the net effect is. 
4. Becoming a Radiant - As far as I can tell, the spren and his actions would decide this.  If Nale accepts him, then some highspren might also. Kaladin and Shallan became Radiants without Dalinar's approval, Kaladin despite the Stormfather's opposition, so I don't think Dalinar has to approve. 
5. Dalinar's forgiveness and Kaladin's acceptance - seem unlikely at this point, but entirely subjective.

The question for me is whether he needs to escape another evil master.  Nale has not interfered with his assassinations, nor the advent of the everstorm, while killing surgebinders.  Is Nale serving Odium at this point?

[Moogle]

I believe Szeth may try to redeem himself, but frankly I don't see how he could do it. He is responsible for the death of several prominent high lords of Roshar, beloved Galivar included. I just cannot see Dalinar forgiving him that. Szeth would need to pull out something BIG to make himself worthy of Dalinar and truly join the Radiant. 

 

Dalinar is hardly in a position to complain about Szeth, given what he's done in his youth (ie. run a war and kill thousands to place a tyrant in charge). I believe at one point he was seriously considering murdering his brother? If Dalinar is "redeemed", then certainly Szeth can be.

 

I agree Dalinar will probably never accept Szeth in the "Radiants", but that hardly matters because the Skybreakers are operating outside of Dalinar's control anyways.

 

Szeth until now has been a tool, and I don't mean that as an insult. He's done exactly as his master has ordered. Now that he's no longer Truthless, he has plenty of time to find a spine and become "Just/Confident", the traits of the Skybreakers. He'll certainly be a changed person at that point.

 

I doubt people on Roshar will ever not be terrified of him, and his mere presence in the Radiants/Skybreakers will bring down bad reputation on them, but I certainly can see "redemption" for him of a sort where it could be possible for most readers of SA to cheer for him.

[maxal]

Dalinar is hardly in a position to complain about Szeth, given what he's done in his youth (ie. run a war and kill thousands to place a tyrant in charge). I believe at one point he was seriously considering murdering his brother? If Dalinar is "redeemed", then certainly Szeth can be.

 

I don't think Dalinar ever was in the same position as Szeth... Szeth as murdered people in a time of peace whereas Dalinar had killed people in a time of war. We could argue Dalinar launched the war to begin with (although I suspect the princedom were already warring within themselves and that Galivar is the true investigator of these events and not Dalinar), but at least Dalinar did not enslave himself to some obscure master.

 

Young Dalinar had a lot of anger issues and did considered murdering his brother after losing Navani to him. I believe (and his flashback book will either confirmed or denied this) he may have taken his youth's trip to the west during those years. Once far-away from Galivar, he met his future wife to be and came back slightly more tamed. These are, of course, speculations on my part, so it's a give or take.

 

I agree with the precept that no one is so far gone they can't redeemed himself, but the main issue with Szeth is he has worked against the very people he would to ally himself with in order to truly change.

 

 

I agree Dalinar will probably never accept Szeth in the "Radiants", but that hardly matters because the Skybreakers are operating outside of Dalinar's control anyways.

 

They are not real Skuybreakers. They do not have spren nor surgebinding. They are an outlawed organization engineered by Nalan in order to achieve his agenda of murdering every single proto-radiant. The real Skybreakers would operate under the Bondsmith and thus Dalinar. If Szeth is to become a real Radiant, he'll need, sooner or later to make peace with Dalinar or remain a false Skybreaker. If that is the case, then our story will need a real one and since we have met everyone... I just can't see who else even if I hate the idea of Szeth being a Radiant.

 

How can he ever make peace with Dalinar? A hard, hard, hard one. The only way I see this is if Szeth managed to purposely save the life of someone Dalinar holds dear, dearer to him then his beloved brother. One of his sons, perhaps or Navani. Imo, I have said the same thing about Eshonai, although I believe she could argue she was possessed by an evil entity.

 

 

Szeth until now has been a tool, and I don't mean that as an insult. He's done exactly as his master has ordered. Now that he's no longer Truthless, he has plenty of time to find a spine and become "Just/Confident", the traits of the Skybreakers. He'll certainly be a changed person at that point.

 

I doubt people on Roshar will ever not be terrified of him, and his mere presence in the Radiants/Skybreakers will bring down bad reputation on them, but I certainly can see "redemption" for him of a sort where it could be possible for most readers of SA to cheer for him.

 

I don't know how much he'll change... He exchanged one vengeful master for another. He exchanged one honorblade with a blood thirsty uncontrollable one... To truly change, he'll need to move away from Nalan's influence and need to become his own man, to become confident in his worth and his beliefs. I suspect we may see this with him, but I am not overly convinced.

 

I am afraid the Skybreakers may end up being the ones with the bad reputation.... It used to be the Dustbringers, but I believe it will change this time around.

[Patrick Star]

Szeth until now has been a tool, and I don't mean that as an insult. He's done exactly as his master has ordered. Now that he's no longer Truthless, he has plenty of time to find a spine and become "Just/Confident", the traits of the Skybreakers. He'll certainly be a changed person at that point.

 

Not really.  After all, he's traveling with insane quasi-herald (that's what I'm calling them for now) Nalan who's been going around Roshar slaughtering the very radiants who are now necessary to win the desolation so that he can slaughter even more high-ranking powerful people and has been given a super dee duper overpowered sword who literally exists with the sole purpose to slaughter every evil person in the history of ever that will constantly beg to kill every "evil" person in the vicinity.

 

Plus he considers the heralds as a viable substitute for the almighty (after all, they are HIS heralds).

 

Not really much room to grow a backbone, if I say so myself.

[Moogle]

I don't think Dalinar ever was in the same position as Szeth... Szeth as murdered people in a time of peace whereas Dalinar had killed people in a time of war. We could argue Dalinar launched the war to begin with (although I suspect the princedom were already warring within themselves and that Galivar is the true investigator of these events and not Dalinar), but at least Dalinar did not enslave himself to some obscure master.

 

I am not going to try and equate Dalinar and Szeth's actions, as I don't know enough about either. They've both done things they're not proud of, though I do note that Szeth at least feels sorrow for his actions whereas Dalinar has yet to remark on feeling bad about it. Your post here seems to be trying to exonerate Dalinar in a way you're not doing for Szeth, though, which I don't think we can do without knowing the whole story.

 

Szeth was raised in a culture that, for lack of a better term, brainwashed him. The notion of disobeying the orders of superior if they're wrong is actually fairly modern, to my knowledge, and I think partially inspired by the Holocaust - I distinctly recall hearing of cultures in the past where it was the highest of honor to obey your liege's orders no matter what they were. If any of us were born in those times, we wouldn't spontaneously develop modern sensibilities.

 

I hesitate to blame Szeth too much for his actions. He clearly came out of Shinovar as a pretty nice guy with his heart in the right place - his masters just used him terribly.

 

They are not real Skuybreakers. They do not have spren nor surgebinding. They are an outlawed organization engineered by Nalan in order to achieve his agenda of murdering every single proto-radiant. The real Skybreakers would operate under the Bondsmith and thus Dalinar. If Szeth is to become a real Radiant, he'll need, sooner or later to make peace with Dalinar or remain a false Skybreaker. If that is the case, then our story will need a real one and since we have met everyone... I just can't see who else even if I hate the idea of Szeth being a Radiant.

 

This is probably more of a philosophical discussion we could hold elsewhere, but I disagree in regards to the Skybreakers. The philosophy is what makes a Radiant to me, not a spren and special powers. Holding to a certain philosophy is what attracts the spren in the first place. Just because the highspren, for whatever reason, are not bonding does not suddenly make Nalan's organization not Skybreakers. (Assuming they would have normally attracted highspren in the past, which I grant is not necessarily the case). Nalan also led the Skybreakers in the past, and I see no reason why he would have suddenly lost his title (beyond the obvious corrupt Herald speculation).

 

This is probably more of a semantic argument, though. Maybe we could agree to leave it be? I'd agree that Nalan's group has no Surgebinders in it.

 

As to the Bondsmith thing: I don't see any evidence that the Radiants operated under the Bondsmiths. Just because Dalinar wants to be a tyrant (note: not saying it's a bad thing) and claim that he is the leader of the Radiants does not suddenly make it so. The Orders have had arguments in the past, and I see no reason it will not be so in the future. "The Radiants" does not necessarily have to be a single organization, nor do the individual Orders, though circumstances will likely force everyone into joining together. Even if everyone operates together, I see no reason why Dalinar has to be in charge.

 

Honor ordered Dalinar to unite, not lead (which is a Windrunner thing anyways). And Honor doesn't have any authority anyways - he's dead, and likely is partially responsible the Desolations in the first place.

 

The various organizations can certainly come together as equals and discuss strategy that way - and frankly, unless Dalinar feels like letting out the Blackthorn, that's the direction I see things going, because Taravangian ain't going to put himself under Dalinar's thumb when he knows how to save the world and Dalinar is floundering.

 

Not really.  After all, he's traveling with insane quasi-herald (that's what I'm calling them for now) Nalan who's been going around Roshar slaughtering the very radiants who are now necessary to win the desolation so that he can slaughter even more high-ranking powerful people and has been given a super dee duper overpowered sword who literally exists with the sole purpose to slaughter every evil person in the history of ever that will constantly beg to kill every "evil" person in the vicinity.

 

Plus he considers the heralds as a viable substitute for the almighty (after all, they are HIS heralds).

 

Not really much room to grow a backbone, if I say so myself.

 

Nalan does not hold his oathstone. I'd give Szeth the benefit of the doubt and say that he's not going to kill anyone unless he's comfortable doing so.

 

Also, we don't know why Nalan thinks Radiants bring the Desolation. Until we do, I hesitate to condemn him. He doesn't seem insane, so it is very possible he has a good reason for doing what he's doing. (I've said this for Amaram in the past, which doesn't bode well for the future, but darnit Brandon has to have some morally grey characters in this series somewhere.)

Edited August 2, 2014 by Moogle

[maxal]

I am not going to try and equate Dalinar and Szeth's actions, as I don't know enough about either. They've both done things they're not proud of, though I do note that Szeth at least feels sorrow for his actions whereas Dalinar has yet to remark on feeling bad about it. Your post here seems to be trying to exonerate Dalinar in a way you're not doing for Szeth, though, which I don't think we can do without knowing the whole story.

 

You are right. I may be letting my feelings for Dalinar cloud my judgement    I do like him as a character as opposed to Szeth which I do not like I tend to grow over-protective of the characters I love best. As for Szeth, I guess I'll have to let him grow on me, but I found his POV so tedious to read in the previous books I believe Brandon has a lot of wrok to do with this one.

 

It is true Dalinar has yet to express grief over what he has done and I believe he still see Galivar taken hold of Alethkar through a blood bath as a good thing. I think he may have stated to Navani how he did not want to be this person anymore, this vengeful aggressive warlord, but he has never said he was sorry for it. I have always taken Dalinar for the sort of guy who looks forward instead of backwards, but I may be wrong. I just cannot wait to read Dalinar's flashback book and I am horrified I'll have to wait for years to do so.

 

 

Szeth was raised in a culture that, for lack of a better term, brainwashed him. The notion of disobeying the orders of superior if they're wrong is actually fairly modern, to my knowledge, and I think partially inspired by the Holocaust - I distinctly recall hearing of cultures in the past where it was the highest of honor to obey your liege's orders no matter what they were. If any of us were born in those times, we wouldn't spontaneously develop modern sensibilities.

 

I hesitate to blame Szeth too much for his actions. He clearly came out of Shinovar as a pretty nice guy with his heart in the right place - his masters just used him terribly.

 

The parallel with the Holocaust is a nice one. I haven't thought about it. Although I'll hazard, in the case of the Holocaust, that many people must have disagreed, but we unable to speak up for fear of retribution to themselves and/or their families. I keep thinking of poor Walter in Winter of the Worlds Perhaps we will find the Shinovar to be very authoritative society ruled in fear where difference of opinion is not tolerated. It would be an interesting plot if it were the case.

 

The issue I have with Szeth is that he clearly knows he is acting wrong. He knows he is doing bad things and he sees them for what they are: unjust, bad and just plain evil and yet he can't bring himself to stop himself. This is where I have issues. I can understand he was brainwashed in thinking he is doing the world a favor, but clearly he does not think so. He knows but refuses to take further actions. His sense of obedience is stronger than his sense of morality... Up to the point where he goes completely crazy. The best example is where, at the end of WoR, he decides to slaughter helpless Adolin just because. He was defeated and unable to fight any further. There was no point in killing him, except for the sake of killing. I sincerely doubt he will have over-grown that feeling simply by being killed by Kal.

 

I agree he must have been a nice guy up at some point. I wonder what happened for him to go out and claim surgebinding is back.....

 

As to the Bondsmith thing: I don't see any evidence that the Radiants operated under the Bondsmiths. Just because Dalinar wants to be a tyrant (note: not saying it's a bad thing) and claim that he is the leader of the Radiants does not suddenly make it so. The Orders have had arguments in the past, and I see no reason it will not be so in the future. "The Radiants" does not necessarily have to be a single organization, nor do the individual Orders, though circumstances will likely force everyone into joining together. Even if everyone operates together, I see no reason why Dalinar has to be in charge.

 

Honor ordered Dalinar to unite, not lead (which is a Windrunner thing anyways). And Honor doesn't have any authority anyways - he's dead, and likely is partially responsible the Desolations in the first place.

 

The various organizations can certainly come together as equals and discuss strategy that way - and frankly, unless Dalinar feels like letting out the Blackthorn, that's the direction I see things going, because Taravangian ain't going to put himself under Dalinar's thumb when he knows how to save the world and Dalinar is floundering.

 

I have always been under the impression the Bondsmiths ruled the Radiant as a whole, but I may have been misleaded. Dalinar has such a strong presence, I just cannot see him taking a backseat and letting others take decisions. Especially when you look at who currently is a Radiant........... In fact, the only person we have ever seen hold head with Dalinar is Adolin and he is not a Radiant, all of the others will just nod and let him have his way. I guess my point is that whereas the Bondsmiths were the leaders of the Radiant or not, Dalinar will put himself into a position of leadership because this is what Dalinar does. I do not see anyone contesting this: Kal, Shallan, Jasnah and Renarin will all accept Dalinar as their leader as they already have. Will this be a good or a bad thing? I don't know. I love Dalinar, but he has his fallout. He does not want to be a tyrant, but he does not know how else to lead. He has limited people's skills and little intuition when it comes to trusting the right persons. The only way he knows to take control is to be the strongest, the biggest and the baddest.

 

And with Dalinar being in charge, what can Szeth do?

 

I do not see why Taravangian should put himself under Dalinar. To me, he clearly is an antagonist and his purpose is to opposed the Radiant and thus Dalinar. He seemed to share Nalan's beliefs that surgebinding is a bad thing. I guess we'll learn more on that, but I am willing to concede there appear to have been something fishy about the Radiants and I suspect it has to do with their disbanding.

[Moogle]

I have always been under the impression the Bondsmiths ruled the Radiant as a whole, but I may have been misleaded. Dalinar has such a strong presence, I just cannot see him taking a backseat and letting others take decisions. Especially when you look at who currently is a Radiant........... In fact, the only person we have ever seen hold head with Dalinar is Adolin and he is not a Radiant, all of the others will just nod and let him have his way. I guess my point is that whereas the Bondsmiths were the leaders of the Radiant or not, Dalinar will put himself into a position of leadership because this is what Dalinar does. I do not see anyone contesting this: Kal, Shallan, Jasnah and Renarin will all accept Dalinar as their leader as they already have.

 

I disagree here, as Shallan has already stated pretty clearly that she doesn't accept Dalinar as her leader. I think Jasnah will feel similarly, though i'm not sure on that. Relevant passage:

“We’ll send you back to the warcamps,” Dalinar continued, eyes forward, speaking softly. “Immediately, with an escort. I don’t care how hard you are to kill. You’re too valuable to risk on this expedition.”

“Brightlord,” Shallan said, splashing through a pool of water, glad she was wearing boots and leggings under the skirt, “you are not my king, nor are you my highprince . You have no authority over me. My duty is to find Urithiru, so you will not be sending me back. And, by your honor, I will have your promise not to tell a soul what I can do unless I give leave. That includes Brightness Navani.”

He stopped in place, and stared at her in surprise. Then he grunted , his face barely visible. “I see Jasnah in you.”

 

I agree that Dalinar will probably put himself in a position of leadership, and a good portion of the Radiants will fall under him, but I do think a few people will ignore his authority. What possible argument could he make to Lift to accept his authority?

 

I do not see why Taravangian should put himself under Dalinar. To me, he clearly is an antagonist and his purpose is to opposed the Radiant and thus Dalinar. He seemed to share Nalan's beliefs that surgebinding is a bad thing.

 

I disagree slightly, though it's mostly a quibble, on Taravangian thinking Surgebinding is a bad thing. He doesn't think it's bad, he just tells himself to be cautious. He doesn't try to kill Kaladin, he tries to distract him and keep him out of the way. The Diagram warns that he may need to destroy the Orders, but it doesn't seem like a foregone conclusion.

 

One danger in deploying such a potent weapon will be the potential encouragement of those exploring the Nahel bond. Care must be taken to avoid placing these subjects in situations of powerful stress unless you accept the consequences of their potential Investiture. —From the Diagram, Floorboard 27: paragraph 6

Edited August 2, 2014 by Moogle

[maxal]

I disagree here, as Shallan has already stated pretty clearly that she doesn't accept Dalinar as her leader. I think Jasnah will feel similarly, though i'm not sure on that. Relevant passage:

 

I forgot about that. In another passage, Shallan has a hard time confronting Dalinar as she thinks he is downright intimidating, which is the one I was thinking about. Perhaps she has it in her to withstand him, but so far, very few people have. Jasnah does her own thing, but I have always felt she may let Dalinar take the foremost position of leadership.

 

 

I agree that Dalinar will probably put himself in a position of leadership, and a good portion of the Radiants will fall under him, but I do think a few people will ignore his authority. What possible argument could he make to Lift to accept his authority?

 

Well Lift will most likely not join our main crew until the second half of SA..... by then Dalinar will most probably be dead

 

 

I disagree slightly, though it's mostly a quibble, on Taravangian thinking Surgebinding is a bad thing. He doesn't think it's bad, he just tells himself to be cautious. He doesn't try to kill Kaladin, he tries to distract him and keep him out of the way. The Diagram warns that he may need to destroy the Orders, but it doesn't seem like a foregone conclusion.

 

Yeah agree, but that makes Taravangian unlikely to ever side with any Radiants, no matter if Dalinar ends up in charge or no. He may not try to kill surgebinders, but he sure does not want to encourage them. Something is fishy.

[Patrick Star]

Nalan does not hold his oathstone. I'd give Szeth the benefit of the doubt and say that he's not going to kill anyone unless he's comfortable doing so.

 

Also, we don't know why Nalan thinks Radiants bring the Desolation. Until we do, I hesitate to condemn him. He doesn't seem insane, so it is very possible he has a good reason for doing what he's doing. (I've said this for Amaram in the past, which doesn't bode well for the future, but darnit Brandon has to have some morally grey characters in this series somewhere.)

 

Well, considering that Nalan asked Szeth why he didn't recognize one of his own gods, I'm going to bet that he won't be defying Nalan's orders any time soon.

 

While Nalan might have a good reason for killing surgebinders, he's clearly unhinged (slitting Gawx's throat, slapping his subordinates), just like all the other heralds are.

 

I just don't see a path to redemptiom for him

[jefftucker0525]

I don't remember it ever being stated that Bondsmiths are the heads of the Radiants, however if all Bondsmiths generally have Dalinars attitude and temperament then I could see how it could be that way. So Szeth doesn't need Dalinars acceptance/forgiveness to become a Radiant, and even if Bondsmiths are the Leaders of the Radiants, they cant tell a Spren what to do. Anyone with the right traits can attract a Spren.

 

 

As for Nalan, does he believe that Surgebinding just starts a Desolation, or that it also causes one to continue? Because if its just the former then he may stop his murder of them, though if its both it will obviously continue until stopped.

 

One more point to make, I believe that the Diagram states the reason behind why Nalan believes that Surgebinding causes Desolations. Their was an excerpt from the Diagram that was something along the lines of "makes the new Radiants discover why the old KR disbanded their Oaths" obviously this is nowhere close to exact but anyways, what better reason would they have to abandon their Oaths than to discover that Surgebinding is actually what brings about the Desolation. I mean, their all absolutely devoted to helping the people survive the Desolations, then find out they cause them. Purely speculation, but it makes sense to me.

[hoser]

I ..

Szeth was raised in a culture that, for lack of a better term, brainwashed him. The notion of disobeying the orders of superior if they're wrong is actually fairly modern, to my knowledge, and I think partially inspired by the Holocaust - I distinctly recall hearing of cultures in the past where it was the highest of honor to obey your liege's orders no matter what they were. If any of us were born in those times, we wouldn't spontaneously develop modern sensibilities.

 

I hesitate to blame Szeth too much for his actions. He clearly came out of Shinovar as a pretty nice guy with his heart in the right place - his masters just used him terribly.

As to the modernity of disobeying evil masters, I would argue that it is not modern at all.  While I don't know Roman or Greek literature very well, there are many examples that predate the Holocaust.  Here are just a few:

• Exodus 23:2 You shall not follow a multitude to do evil. 
• Early quakers believed in a majority of one, meaning that one has a responsibility to stand for what is right, even alone. This would have been in the late 17th century. 
• In the US, the Boston Tea Party was a notable protest in the 18th century. 

 

Given that he knew that what he was doing was harming people and, in his own thoughts, he was doing it out of a selfish desire to avoid his soul being annihilated, I can't see his heart as being in the right place. 

[Edgedancer]

As for Nalan, does he believe that Surgebinding just starts a Desolation, or that it also causes one to continue? Because if its just the former then he may stop his murder of them, though if its both it will obviously continue until stopped.

 

One more point to make, I believe that the Diagram states the reason behind why Nalan believes that Surgebinding causes Desolations. Their was an excerpt from the Diagram that was something along the lines of "makes the new Radiants discover why the old KR disbanded their Oaths" obviously this is nowhere close to exact but anyways, what better reason would they have to abandon their Oaths than to discover that Surgebinding is actually what brings about the Desolation. I mean, their all absolutely devoted to helping the people survive the Desolations, then find out they cause them. Purely speculation, but it makes sense to me.

The Radiants were created to emulate the Heralds. The Heralds leaving Damnation causes a Desolation to start. Them going back stops the Desolation. The idea that Surgebinders now regulate the Desolations after most of the Heralds broke the Oathpact makes sense.

[maxal]

I don't remember it ever being stated that Bondsmiths are the heads of the Radiants, however if all Bondsmiths generally have Dalinars attitude and temperament then I could see how it could be that way. So Szeth doesn't need Dalinars acceptance/forgiveness to become a Radiant, and even if Bondsmiths are the Leaders of the Radiants, they cant tell a Spren what to do. Anyone with the right traits can attract a Spren.

 

Well, I don't think it ever was stated, but considering the fact their never were more than three Bondsmiths, I assumed it would be the case. You can't have a hundred chiefs, but you can have three. Also finding that Dalinar of all people ends up being one strenghten my belief it was indeed part of their role: bond all the orders together and make them work towards a greater good.

 

I agree that Szeth does not need Dalinar's approval to become a Radiant as Dalinar certainly does not have a right to say who becomes one and who doesn't: ultimately the spren decides. However, if he is to ever join the main crew and work hand in hand with them, he would need such forgiveness. Until he gets it, he is bond to be a rogue Radiant, doing his own thing and thus never taking part into the big picture. Although perhaps it is the role that would serve him best: hunting real criminals and coming forward to help only when the need arises.

 

 

As to the modernity of disobeying evil masters, I would argue that it is not modern at all.  While I don't know Roman or Greek literature very well, there are many examples that predate the Holocaust.  Here are just a few:

• Exodus 23:2 You shall not follow a multitude to do evil. 
• Early quakers believed in a majority of one, meaning that one has a responsibility to stand for what is right, even alone. This would have been in the late 17th century. 
• In the US, the Boston Tea Party was a notable protest in the 18th century. 

 

Given that he knew that what he was doing was harming people and, in his own thoughts, he was doing it out of a selfish desire to avoid his soul being annihilated, I can't see his heart as being in the right place. 

 

Great examples. There has always been, throughout history, dissidents willing to risk everything in order to stand for what they believe in. However, I would add that, until modern times, such positions were highly discouraged and often end up in persecution of many kinds. We are fortunate to live in an era that encourages people to speak out their minds even if it clashes with the mainstreamed opinion.

 

In the case of Szeth, it may be he does not have what it takes to truly stand out for his beliefs and for himself. Perhaps it is part of his path to radianhood as he will have to learn to be his own man and stop being controlled by others who think they know best. Bottom line, he has to learn to follow his heart more as opposed to his mind. Based on other conversations we have had lately, I would say the Skybreakers are probably one of the most rational orders around as they follow the law to a fault. Their second attribute of confidence would attenuate this as if one is confident enough in its rightness, then it can go against an unjust law.

[hoser]

Well, ...

 

In the case of Szeth, it may be he does not have what it takes to truly stand out for his beliefs and for himself. Perhaps it is part of his path to radianhood as he will have to learn to be his own man and stop being controlled by others who think they know best. Bottom line, he has to learn to follow his heart more as opposed to his mind. Based on other conversations we have had lately, I would say the Skybreakers are probably one of the most rational orders around as they follow the law to a fault. Their second attribute of confidence would attenuate this as if one is confident enough in its rightness, then it can go against an unjust law.

As for Szeth, I just don't get it.

 

He questioned foundational beliefs of the Shamans with such forcefulness that he was punished horribly.  But then he meekly decides that he was wrong and accepts the punishment.  If he is weak, he doesn't do the former.  If he is strong, he doesn't do the latter. 

 

He does horrible things that he hates to follow his punishment.  His explanation is that he is trying to maintain the existence of his soul.  If he is strong, he doesn't do the former.  If he is weak, he doesn't do the latter. 

 

The existence of Radiants or voidbringers proves his punishment false.  He has multiple encounters with a Radiant and he arrives in the middle of a war zone with thousands of voidbringers calling the Everstorm in the middle of the weeping (when there could be neither highstorm nor everstorm).  He continues to follow his evil orders. 

 

I expect Brandon will come up with something brilliant to cover what appear to me to be inconsistencies.  And I guess "madness" allows you to make a character do anything.  At the least, it allows Brandon to tell this amazing story.  

[kari-no-sugata]

Regarding Bondsmiths...

 

My feeling is that they hold some kind of unique special power that gives them influence over all Radiants - I doubt it's unrelated that Ishar is the Herald with the same Surges as Bondsmiths and he effectively founded the Radiants. So I can totally see Bondsmiths having some kind of natural leadership/authority position. I even had an idea that a Bondsmith going bad could have caused the Recreance... or could have enforced the "solution".

 

To some degree, what happened in the past doesn't matter too much for the current story since they only have limited knowledge of what went on before - they're kinda like "wilders" to use a term from The Wheel of Time. To use more modern terminology they're like a "reboot" of the Radiants not simply a reformation - they can do things differently if they want. But Dalinar wants to be the head Radiant and I doubt any of the others want to so he'll get the position by default

[maxal]

 But Dalinar wants to be the head Radiant and I doubt any of the others want to so he'll get the position by default

 

One of Dalinar's calling was leadership now wasn't it? As Sadeas pointed out, he has always been jealous of Galivar and had always wished it were him in his place. I think not only Dalinar will seize power, he won't let anyone contest it. It helps that one else would do so anyway or would be fitted for the position.

[AerionBFII]

I think Kaladin will be leading the KR by the end of the series. He is a Windrunner who were based off the Herald Jezrien and he practices the attributes of Protecting and Leading.

[maxal]

I think Kaladin will be leading the KR by the end of the series. He is a Windrunner who were based off the Herald Jezrien and he practices the attributes of Protecting and Leading.

 

I just do not see Kaladin taking up that role. He is so taken up on protecting people, he makes bad decision on the battle field. His main objective has never been to strike a hit, but to avoid any members of his team being killed, which is why I do no think he'll never make a good tactical leader.

 

He also is a very weak politician (in my opinion) and he does not understand the working of the Game most prominent people in his world are playing. He thinks everyone should have the same priorities as him and has issues seeing the big picture. He also has shown himself to grow jealous of the privilege others have been born to and tend to hold it against them, even if they are not to be individually blame for the working of his society. He has issues understanding other people's position and take on things when they differ from his.

 

Not to forget that Kal is not a very likeable person as a whole and a good leader needs to have people's skills and intuition, things who are not among Kal's strengths. Kal is a grumpy fellow who expresses a certain animosity towards most people who are not his crew. Therefore, unless you are part of his close-up people, he just comes out as unlikeable.

 

I see more Kal as an inspiring guy who helps people becoming better by following his example. This is how I see leadership being apply for Windrunners: lead by example. I also believe the role of bodyguard he is currently occupying fits him like a glove.

 

Dalinar is a tyrant, but at least, he understand the water he is dwelling in and he is a good tactical leader. What he misses is people's skills and intuition as he misreads people more often than not.

Edited August 3, 2014 by maxal