Is redemption possible for Szeth?

[Djerf]

Szeths dilemma is one that have is far common in religions with an absolute moral, he knows that what he does is wrong, he feels it. But at the end of the day, disobeying the orders given to him is a far worse evil than killing and walking on stone. Szeths actions are to his mind the lesser of two evils which is why he continues to suffer as he does. At the end of WoR Szeth simply exchanged one set of flawed external morals for another and I would be surprised to see him getting better while still serving under Nalan.

 

Szeths way to redemption in my mind is one where he forsake any kind of religion and outside moral and do what he knows to be good. This could redeem him in the large scheme of things, if he can be redeemed in the eyes of the other characters we love is another question.

 

I like Szeth and i think it would be awesome if Sanderson chose to show the way a persons religion can be evil if misinterpreted.

[kaellok]

 

That is why I used the term 'simplistic'. It's all too easy to project one's own values onto Szeth. If anything, this only shows just how blank a character he is, bereft of an actual story. We need that before we can render judgment. 

Of course I'm using my own values to judge whether Szeth can be redeemed.  I interpreted the question as "Do you think Szeth can be redeemed?"  My viewpoint of the world and life is going to judge whether I feel he has been redeemed or not.  We don't need to know more about his background or culture to "render judgment" because he has already done so; he point-blank tells us, in his viewpoint chapters, that what he is doing is wrong.  He knows he is doing wrong, and does it anyway.  He knows he is doing evil, but does it anyway.  He knows what some of the possible repercussions are going to be, on a global scale, but does them anyway.

 

Taking those actions, and his feelings, into account--I find any possibility of redemption for him to be so close to impossible to not need any qualifier.  I'm not Shin, or of his culture, so those words are only how I will see his character.  He may find himself redeemed and such while I still view him as a villain--and there's nothing wrong with that.  That's why I say that my view is hardly simplistic; just because I think his past is irrelevant doesn't mean that I didn't consider whether it might alter my perception of him.  Learning more about him may allow me to understand why he did it, but that understanding doesn't equal forgiveness or absolution.  I can understand why many monsters throughout history have acted the way that they did, but that doesn't make them any less monstrous.  My own value system demands that what he has done is unforgivable, to me, regardless of who he is or his value system or what he believes. 

 

You can wait to decide for yourself, and have your own opinion entirely--and we'll both be right.  But the importance of free will and responsibility for your actions is far too great to me to be able to successfully imagine even the possibility of him becoming some kind of redeemed hero. 

 

tl;dr: Other value systems exist that can see what Szeth has done and find forgiveness for him, and that is fine; but for me, there can be none.

[Ketek]

Of course I'm using my own values to judge whether Szeth can be redeemed.  I interpreted the question as "Do you think Szeth can be redeemed?"  My viewpoint of the world and life is going to judge whether I feel he has been redeemed or not.  We don't need to know more about his background or culture to "render judgment" because he has already done so; he point-blank tells us, in his viewpoint chapters, that what he is doing is wrong.  He knows he is doing wrong, and does it anyway.  He knows he is doing evil, but does it anyway.  He knows what some of the possible repercussions are going to be, on a global scale, but does them anyway.

 

Taking those actions, and his feelings, into account--I find any possibility of redemption for him to be so close to impossible to not need any qualifier.  I'm not Shin, or of his culture, so those words are only how I will see his character.  He may find himself redeemed and such while I still view him as a villain--and there's nothing wrong with that.  That's why I say that my view is hardly simplistic; just because I think his past is irrelevant doesn't mean that I didn't consider whether it might alter my perception of him.  Learning more about him may allow me to understand why he did it, but that understanding doesn't equal forgiveness or absolution.  I can understand why many monsters throughout history have acted the way that they did, but that doesn't make them any less monstrous.  My own value system demands that what he has done is unforgivable, to me, regardless of who he is or his value system or what he believes. 

 

You can wait to decide for yourself, and have your own opinion entirely--and we'll both be right.  But the importance of free will and responsibility for your actions is far too great to me to be able to successfully imagine even the possibility of him becoming some kind of redeemed hero. 

 

tl;dr: Other value systems exist that can see what Szeth has done and find forgiveness for him, and that is fine; but for me, there can be none.

 

That's perfectly fine with me. My disagreements with you mainly stem from how you seemed to be projecting, but if that's the case I'll agree to disagree. Until Stones Unhallowed/Skybreaker comes out, that is...

[nimvin]

I will be upfront and say I'm withholding judgment on redemption. That said let me stir the pot some more.

Personal kills for Szeth are probably somewhere between 75 and 200. If I was in vegas id say 133. Confirmed kills in text off the top of my head 2 prime viziers, 2 guards dead 1 maimed going for dalinar 1st time, Highprince Roion 2nd Dalinar attempt, 2 guards plus Gavilar, the 2 dozen or so when he went after the Highprince with the half-shards.

When he recieves the list we get no number of targets just Szeth's shock at the bloodbath. Vorin culture being what it is knock off the top two in any vorin kingdom and I see things get bloody real fast. Now for all the deaths in Jah keved is he to blame. Vorin culture reacted the way Mr.T knew it would. Did szeth "know" this war would be the outcome. Maybe he is responsible for those deaths.

My next statement may anger some and that is not my intent. I like playing devils advocate and making people think. Does anyone think Oliver North or Reagan is to blame for 9-11? We knew the Afghani rebels did not share our beliefs but we ascribed to the "enemy of our enemy" belief and provided arms, training, and funding to not just them but Osama bin Laden himself. The law of unintended consequences rears its head everywhere all the time.

I personally absolve him of guilt for any death in regards to the vengeance pact AFTER the firsr gemheart was found. Everyone still wanted to kill parshendi but only on the way to a gemheart.

Tl:dr I reserve judgement lol.