Patrick Star Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 One must unite them - Dalinar One must protect them - Kaladin One must lead them - ??? Who leads them? Not Szeth, Shallan, Eshonai, or Jasnah. Probably not Lift. A Herald, maybe? Oh... I know! THE LOPEN!!!
Ketek Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 I more or less agree with maxal - I see Kaladin as being the public face of the Knights Radiant, along with Dalinar, but true leadership will go to the latter. Kaladin's too emotional to lead. As for Szeth and redemption, logic dictates that he's beyond it - I genuinely cannot see how Szeth might go from villain to hero in the eyes others, but Sanderson has a fondness for characters that seem beyond redemption but end up obtaining it anyway. Hrathen, Aladar, Roion and to a lesser extent, Marsh and Vasher are examples of such. My prediction is that he'll end up being a rogue Surgebinder who follows the Skybreakers' ideals, but is not officially affiliated to the Knights Radiant, or that the Skybreakers will break off from the main body of Radiants and go their own way.
kari-no-sugata Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 I more or less agree with maxal - I see Kaladin as being the public face of the Knights Radiant, along with Dalinar, but true leadership will go to the latter. Kaladin's too emotional to lead. There's a point where Dalinar considers Kaladin's leadership abilities and how people like him often have a bumpy start - and that he had similar issues when younger. Maybe in 10 years As for Szeth and redemption, logic dictates that he's beyond it - I genuinely cannot see how Szeth might go from villain to hero in the eyes others, but Sanderson has a fondness for characters that seem beyond redemption but end up obtaining it anyway. Hrathen, Aladar, Roion and to a lesser extent, Marsh and Vasher are examples of such. I think they would find it far easier to trust Szeth if he was literally being compelled, rather than being compelled by his religion - kinda hard for people to take religions other than their own seriously. So even if they find out "why" he took those various actions the cultural divide would be a rather big hurdle. I think it would also depend on how much the Radiants come to trust their spren and their judgement - would they feel they should trust Szeth because a spren has chosen to trusts him? My prediction is that he'll end up being a rogue Surgebinder who follows the Skybreakers' ideals, but is not officially affiliated to the Knights Radiant, or that the Skybreakers will break off from the main body of Radiants and go their own way. Maybe. Could be fun to see Szeth walking around the world, taking action where he feels justice is needed...
Guest Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 There's a point where Dalinar considers Kaladin's leadership abilities and how people like him often have a bumpy start - and that he had similar issues when younger. Maybe in 10 years Kaladin is just not a good politician. It is not just about being liked, it is also about being able to maneuver within people who believes different things. Kaladin has a very limited understanding of society and when people try to explain things to him, he dismisses them because he thinks they are stupid. He fails to see how what he thinks is insignificant may matter to others and to truly lead, you need to understand that or else you will end up alienating yourself from half of the people. Kaladin would be a good leader of his faction, of the defense as a whole (I do see him leading the effort to protect the common people, the villagers), but I do not see him as the leader of all the Radiants. I do not see him evolve within court and amongst the high ranked people, talking their language and securing alliances. Dalinar for that matter is not a good politician either. I believe he can learn to be better, but for this, he'll need to learn humility and to trust other people's judgement. So far, he is our best bet as he is the only one commanding enough respect to achieve it. As for Szeth and redemption, logic dictates that he's beyond it - I genuinely cannot see how Szeth might go from villain to hero in the eyes others, but Sanderson has a fondness for characters that seem beyond redemption but end up obtaining it anyway. Hrathen, Aladar, Roion and to a lesser extent, Marsh and Vasher are examples of such. My prediction is that he'll end up being a rogue Surgebinder who follows the Skybreakers' ideals, but is not officially affiliated to the Knights Radiant, or that the Skybreakers will break off from the main body of Radiants and go their own way. Well, Marsh was a sympathetic antagonist... He was basically controlled, against his will, by Ruin and yet he did managed to do the right thing when it mattered the most. Szeth still has a long way to go... I do see him as a rogue surgebinder as well. I think this role would suit him best.
kari-no-sugata Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 Kaladin is just not a good politician. It is not just about being liked, it is also about being able to maneuver within people who believes different things. Kaladin has a very limited understanding of society and when people try to explain things to him, he dismisses them because he thinks they are stupid. He fails to see how what he thinks is insignificant may matter to others and to truly lead, you need to understand that or else you will end up alienating yourself from half of the people. Kaladin would be a good leader of his faction, of the defense as a whole (I do see him leading the effort to protect the common people, the villagers), but I do not see him as the leader of all the Radiants. I do not see him evolve within court and amongst the high ranked people, talking their language and securing alliances. Just to be clear, I was only considering his general leadership skills or for something along the lines of what he is doing currently. I don't know how much he'll change but yeah... at the moment he's poorly suited for a king-like role (which leader of the Radiants would be like in terms of responsibility). For the whole series, maybe Dalinar would have to survive for most of it unless there happens to be a good replacement candidate for Bondsmith around, which doesn't seem likely currently. So maybe it'll never become an issue. On the other hand, maybe part of the problem for them in the second 5 books is solving whatever problem they have specifically without a Bondsmith. (Just talking about Dalinar's chances of survival here) Dalinar for that matter is not a good politician either. I believe he can learn to be better, but for this, he'll need to learn humility and to trust other people's judgement. So far, he is our best bet as he is the only one commanding enough respect to achieve it. I don't think he really realises just how much he has to learn...
Guest Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 Just to be clear, I was only considering his general leadership skills or for something along the lines of what he is doing currently. I don't know how much he'll change but yeah... at the moment he's poorly suited for a king-like role (which leader of the Radiants would be like in terms of responsibility). Oh I definitely agree. He is good in his current role and I can see him taking a more advanced leadership role, but not taking the king-like position the leader of the Radiants will most likely assumed. He would need to change drastically to assume such a role, which is not impossible, but he is rather close-minded over such things at the moment. For the whole series, maybe Dalinar would have to survive for most of it unless there happens to be a good replacement candidate for Bondsmith around, which doesn't seem likely currently. So maybe it'll never become an issue. On the other hand, maybe part of the problem for them in the second 5 books is solving whatever problem they have specifically without a Bondsmith. (Just talking about Dalinar's chances of survival here) Yeah I agree we do not have any other prospect for the Bondsmith. However, it could be the role of the Bondsmith is to unite the Radiants, not lead them. It could be once this task is accomplished, the need for a Bondsmith for be so dire. Perhaps, the leader of the Radiants does not need to be a Bondsmith, perhaps it was just the most apt person, independently of his or her order. I don't think he really realises just how much he has to learn... True. I think the next books are going to allow a lot of growth for him.
kari-no-sugata Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 Yeah I agree we do not have any other prospect for the Bondsmith. However, it could be the role of the Bondsmith is to unite the Radiants, not lead them. It could be once this task is accomplished, the need for a Bondsmith for be so dire. Perhaps, the leader of the Radiants does not need to be a Bondsmith, perhaps it was just the most apt person, independently of his or her order. I dunno. I suggested in an earlier post that maybe a "rogue" Bondsmith caused the Recreance. It's just as possible that a lack of Bondsmiths (indirectly) lead to it. Not that I have any basis for this but if only a Bondsmith can unify them then probably only a Bondsmith can keep them unified...?
Arondell Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 I am not going to try and equate Dalinar and Szeth's actions, as I don't know enough about either. They've both done things they're not proud of, though I do note that Szeth at least feels sorrow for his actions whereas Dalinar has yet to remark on feeling bad about it. Your post here seems to be trying to exonerate Dalinar in a way you're not doing for Szeth, though, which I don't think we can do without knowing the whole story. Actually during the scene when Dalinar is helping to carve out the latrine he does express regret over the actions of his younger self. Stone could not be changed without pounding. Was it the same with a man like him? Was that why everything was so hard for him suddenly? But why him? Dalinar wasn’t a philosopher or idealist. He was a soldier. And—if he admitted the truth—in earlier years, he’d been a tyrant and a warmonger. Could twilight years spent pretending to follow the precepts of better men erase a lifetime of butchery? Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 416). Macmillan. Kindle Edition. He doesn't explicitly say "I regret" or "I'm sorry I did this." but the tone and phrasing imply, to me at least, a deep regret over his younger selfs actions. Also in words of Radiance there is the following quote. “This is unity?” Dalinar asked, waving a hand back toward the scattered remnants of the feast, the departing lighteyes. “No, Wit. We failed. We crushed, we killed, and we have failed miserably.” He looked up. “I receive, in Alethkar, only what I have demanded . In taking the throne by force, we implied— no we screamed—that strength is the right of rule. Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 798). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. So yeah...I think Dalinar regrets the actions of his younger self. His whole character arc has been about trying to find a better way of doing things. Given the state Alethi society has fallen too that is an uphill fight both with himself and all the other highprinces.
Guest Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 I dunno. I suggested in an earlier post that maybe a "rogue" Bondsmith caused the Recreance. It's just as possible that a lack of Bondsmiths (indirectly) lead to it. Not that I have any basis for this but if only a Bondsmith can unify them then probably only a Bondsmith can keep them unified...? I can agree with that, except do we really think Dalinar is the one to keep them united?
Guest Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 So yeah...I think Dalinar regrets the actions of his younger self. His whole character arc has been about trying to find a better way of doing things. Given the state Alethi society has fallen too that is an uphill fight both with himself and all the other highprinces. I think we can all agree Dalinar is trying to be a better person and he is trying very hard to raise his sons differently. Is it sufficient though? Can a life of butchery be erase by a few years spent trying to do the good thing? Moreover, can he really control the butcher in him? He was that man, the warmonger, he wanted to be this man: nobody forced him to it. He wanted this, he was not misguided. To what extant can he really change? Maybe he won't be the one to hold the sword and cut the heads off anymore, but is he still the Blackthorn?
Arondell Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 I think we can all agree Dalinar is trying to be a better person and he is trying very hard to raise his sons differently. Is it sufficient though? Can a life of butchery be erase by a few years spent trying to do the good thing? Moreover, can he really control the butcher in him? He was that man, the warmonger, he wanted to be this man: nobody forced him to it. He wanted this, he was not misguided. To what extant can he really change? Maybe he won't be the one to hold the sword and cut the heads off anymore, but is he still the Blackthorn? Erased? No. The actions he took when younger can never be erased. Nor should it be. GIven those are exactly the questions Dalinar is already asking himself I would say he is at least pointed in generally the right direction. Certainly swearing the first two oaths could be viewed as a positive step. I wonder if its a ten step program... 1
kari-no-sugata Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 I can agree with that, except do we really think Dalinar is the one to keep them united? Yes but with difficulty! At least for him in the early stages, the Radiants he'll be dealing with are people he already has a decent relationship with. btw, one thing I think we should consider in all this is the spren involved. Jasnah has already dropped hints about "spren politics". Syl describes Cryptics as a "revolting type" of spren and "but not evil, I don't think" - which implies a big gulf between those two spren types. I very much doubt this is an isolated case. The Nahel bond works both ways, so spren opinion and spren politics are going to have an influence on human opinion and politics. I doubt that the Stormfather is completely above politics but his opinion is going to count for an awful lot - though considering that Syl thinks of the Stormfather as being "broken" maybe one of Dalinar's side tasks is to help "fix" the Stormfather a bit I think we can all agree Dalinar is trying to be a better person and he is trying very hard to raise his sons differently. Is it sufficient though? Can a life of butchery be erase by a few years spent trying to do the good thing? Moreover, can he really control the butcher in him? He was that man, the warmonger, he wanted to be this man: nobody forced him to it. He wanted this, he was not misguided. To what extant can he really change? Maybe he won't be the one to hold the sword and cut the heads off anymore, but is he still the Blackthorn? Actually, I'm worried about the opposite problem - that he might be overcompensating and being too benevolent in some cases (eg with Amaram and Sadeas). I think the way he dealt with the Parshendi (storm-form ones and not) was fine though. I do think that his talk with Wit about how his achievements during his youth were flawed and helped create the current situation indicate that he has fully realised that "The Blackthorn" model of leadership is part of the problem not part of the solution.
Guest Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 I wonder if its a ten step program... LOL. We should submit as a therapy program for abusive, violent people prone to anger I give you my upvote for this Yes but with difficulty! At least for him in the early stages, the Radiants he'll be dealing with are people he already has a decent relationship with. btw, one thing I think we should consider in all this is the spren involved. Jasnah has already dropped hints about "spren politics". Syl describes Cryptics as a "revolting type" of spren and "but not evil, I don't think" - which implies a big gulf between those two spren types. I very much doubt this is an isolated case. The Nahel bond works both ways, so spren opinion and spren politics are going to have an influence on human opinion and politics. I doubt that the Stormfather is completely above politics but his opinion is going to count for an awful lot - though considering that Syl thinks of the Stormfather as being "broken" maybe one of Dalinar's side tasks is to help "fix" the Stormfather a bit The spren politics is a good point. I have overlooked it. It is true it may have an influence on who ends up taking the lead. So far, we know Cryptics have a lot of authority. We also know that Honorspren and the Stormfather walk hand in hand, but he also know the Honorsprens do not like the Highsprens (ie Windrunners and Skybreakers do not get along). Actually, I'm worried about the opposite problem - that he might be overcompensating and being too benevolent in some cases (eg with Amaram and Sadeas). I think the way he dealt with the Parshendi (storm-form ones and not) was fine though. I do think that his talk with Wit about how his achievements during his youth were flawed and helped create the current situation indicate that he has fully realised that "The Blackthorn" model of leadership is part of the problem not part of the solution. I think he is overcompensating. He is trying too hard to believe other people can make the same change as he did. He has failed to see into the failure and the madness of others (Sadeas, Amaram) and was reluctant to listen to those who saw through their games (Adolin). Actually, Adolin has been right so often in reading people's true intentions, it is a tragedy Dalinar does not take his word without a fault He knows. The talk with Wit is one indication. The speech he gave his son before going to get himself killed is another one. He basically told him to never be the Blackthorn, that no matter what happened never resort to act like he did, never, never, never. This is strong theme with Dalinar: how he regrets his days, how he sees the wrongness in his past behaviors and how he is trying to steer his son away from all this.
soulcastJam he/him Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 Back to Szeth... My personal concern with Szeth is the post-traumatic stress of murdering hundreds of people. His mind has obviously snapped somewhat as shown, for example, by his blaming people for their own deaths before killing them, and my question is if he can and will be able to overcome the mental stresses that he has gone through. It's less a question of whether he is worthy of some sort of redemption and more if he can overcome the mental trauma and the habits of hating people in general. And it's not like he will have therapy sessions. On that note, who would you like to see join the Murderers Anonymous group that Szeth would attend?
Ketek Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 Maybe. Could be fun to see Szeth walking around the world, taking action where he feels justice is needed... I do see him as a rogue surgebinder as well. I think this role would suit him best. Nananananananananana SZETH! Because he's the (anti) hero Roshar deserves, but not the one it needs right now. Back to Szeth... My personal concern with Szeth is the post-traumatic stress of murdering hundreds of people. His mind has obviously snapped somewhat as shown, for example, by his blaming people for their own deaths before killing them, and my question is if he can and will be able to overcome the mental stresses that he has gone through. It's less a question of whether he is worthy of some sort of redemption and more if he can overcome the mental trauma and the habits of hating people in general. And it's not like he will have therapy sessions. On that note, who would you like to see join the Murderers Anonymous group that Szeth would attend? The Steel Inquisitors, the koloss, Shallan, Adolin, Amaram, Vasher...
Guest Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 The Steel Inquisitors, the koloss, Shallan, Adolin, Amaram, Vasher... And today, our invited speaker is Highprince Dalinar Kohlin who will lecture who on how faith in a book written thousand of years ago has helped him moved passed a life of gruesome bloody wars. - Highprince Dalinar, welcome. Now, please tell us how you manage to look at yourself in the mirror each day knowing you beheaded all of these innocent people? - .....
Patrick Star Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 - Highprince Dalinar, welcome. Now, please tell us how you manage to look at yourself in the mirror each day knowing you beheaded all of these innocent people? I don't. Problem solved. 2
kaellok he/him Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 Is redemption possible for Szeth? No. In life, there is one absolute evil that reigns above and informs all others--the forcible submission of someone else's free will. Szeth's free will was not forcibly taken from him, he gave it away without regard. His life was not threatened, nor were his loved ones or family or friends (that we are aware of). Someone literally said, "I have a rock. You must do whatever someone says when they hold this rock," and Szeth responded "That sounds like a lovely idea." Szeth willingly abandoned the most beautiful and wonderful part of life, all while performing acts that he knew to be incredibly evil. There can be no redemption.
Ketek Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 And today, our invited speaker is Highprince Dalinar Kohlin who will lecture who on how faith in a book written thousand of years ago has helped him moved passed a life of gruesome bloody wars. - Highprince Dalinar, welcome. Now, please tell us how you manage to look at yourself in the mirror each day knowing you beheaded all of these innocent people? - ..... That's assuming his enemies were all innocent, which I highly doubt considering that the highprinces were generally [insert Cosmere curse] No. In life, there is one absolute evil that reigns above and informs all others--the forcible submission of someone else's free will. Szeth's free will was not forcibly taken from him, he gave it away without regard. His life was not threatened, nor were his loved ones or family or friends (that we are aware of). Someone literally said, "I have a rock. You must do whatever someone says when they hold this rock," and Szeth responded "That sounds like a lovely idea." Szeth willingly abandoned the most beautiful and wonderful part of life, all while performing acts that he knew to be incredibly evil. There can be no redemption. That's a very simplistic view; we simply don't enough about Shin culture to claim that Szeth is beyond redemption. It's all too easy to stand on the other side of the fence and condemn others, but we need the proper context before doing so. We don't know whether his life was threatened, whether his loved ones were used against him or not, and we don't know how much Shin culture perpetuates a paradigm of unquestioning obedience and loyalty. When we know all this, we can judge whether Szeth is genuinely a horrible person, or whether he isn't. Right now, it's all up in the air.
hoser he/him Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 That's... That's a very simplistic view; we simply don't enough about Shin culture to claim that Szeth is beyond redemption. It's all too easy to stand on the other side of the fence and condemn others, but we need the proper context before doing so. We don't know whether his life was threatened, whether his loved ones were used against him or not, and we don't know how much Shin culture perpetuates a paradigm of unquestioning obedience and loyalty. When we know all this, we can judge whether Szeth is genuinely a horrible person, or whether he isn't. Right now, it's all up in the air. He tells us in his internal dialog what is at stake. He specifically says that if he follows the terms of his punishment, his soul will reside in the stone. If not, he believes his soul will be annihilated. He doesn't talk about punishments for family members or his life when he talks about why he obeys. He is doing all these evil actions to maintain the post-life existence of his soul, which he tells us clearly. I think that if you want to judge him on a subjective basis, you can talk about Shin societal values and insanity and give him an easy pass. If there is a significant objective component to the judgement, it seems hard to pass him. He knows that the foundation of Shin society may be wrong. That is why he is being punished. If he is in doubt, he should resolve his questions before meekly submitting to a possibly flawed sentence. 1
Patrick Star Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 Hoser, I think that you've hit the nail on the head. Now, I just wish that somebody would hit Szeth on the head. Maybe that will help (I just want to see Szeth get hit on the head). 1
Guest Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 Kaellok adn Hoser, you nailed it, I think. Your comments illustrate perfectly well why I just can't feel any sympathy for Szeth. I feel, just like you, that he gave up his free will in exchange for his soul's well being, which would not be so crazy if only he was convinced it was the case... I would like his character better if he actually reasons other than religion to turn into a puppet. On the other hand, our world offer many examples of people being mislead in such ways, so maybe it is not so far-fetched.
Shaggai Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 He tells us in his internal dialog what is at stake. He specifically says that if he follows the terms of his punishment, his soul will reside in the stone. If not, he believes his soul will be annihilated. He doesn't talk about punishments for family members or his life when he talks about why he obeys. He is doing all these evil actions to maintain the post-life existence of his soul, which he tells us clearly. I think that if you want to judge him on a subjective basis, you can talk about Shin societal values and insanity and give him an easy pass. If there is a significant objective component to the judgement, it seems hard to pass him. He knows that the foundation of Shin society may be wrong. That is why he is being punished. If he is in doubt, he should resolve his questions before meekly submitting to a possibly flawed sentence. When he becomes Truthless, he still believes that Shin society is correct. He accepts his punishment, and believes that he was wrong about the Radiants. Later, when he has evidence that he was right, he's beyond the point of no return. His entire reality is based around his status as Truthless. It's somewhat reminiscent of the practice, among certain organizations which use child soldiers, of making said child soldiers complicit in war crimes as a method of ensuring loyalty. It's absolutely horrific, but the children (and, in this case, Szeth) are victims as well. 2
Ketek Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 When he becomes Truthless, he still believes that Shin society is correct. He accepts his punishment, and believes that he was wrong about the Radiants. Later, when he has evidence that he was right, he's beyond the point of no return. His entire reality is based around his status as Truthless. It's somewhat reminiscent of the practice, among certain organizations which use child soldiers, of making said child soldiers complicit in war crimes as a method of ensuring loyalty. It's absolutely horrific, but the children (and, in this case, Szeth) are victims as well. Exactly. Remember, cultural influences can be very pervasive; like I said, it's easy to condemn Szeth, but we don't have the context for it. The man is totally stormed up - if anything, I'd say the stone shamans are far worse, knowing that they've subjugated a man, given him Surgebinding powers and (arguably) a blade that once belonged to their gods, or holy figures, and then let him loose to do as others wish of him. He tells us in his internal dialog what is at stake. He specifically says that if he follows the terms of his punishment, his soul will reside in the stone. If not, he believes his soul will be annihilated. He doesn't talk about punishments for family members or his life when he talks about why he obeys. He is doing all these evil actions to maintain the post-life existence of his soul, which he tells us clearly. I think that if you want to judge him on a subjective basis, you can talk about Shin societal values and insanity and give him an easy pass. If there is a significant objective component to the judgement, it seems hard to pass him. He knows that the foundation of Shin society may be wrong. That is why he is being punished. If he is in doubt, he should resolve his questions before meekly submitting to a possibly flawed sentence. Again, this is far too simplistic a judgment. We don't know if he 'meekly' submitted; for all we know the stone shamans may have coerced him with Surgebinding or some other magical ability yet to be revealed. Right now, all we know is that he was made Truthless for declaring that the Voidbringers had returned. Until the third SA book comes out, there's really no way of telling whether Szeth is deserving of redemption. 2
Arondell Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 One of the subjects I'm looking forward too in book three is more insight into the Shin culture. Specifically the consequences to the Shin leadership for declaring someone a truthless in error. Ok yeah Szeth showing up with Nightblood is going to be one of them but I'm curious more on a societal level. Since all the death and destruction that Szeth caused can ultimately be placed at their feet.
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