JohnnyKaizen he/him Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 So I was just reading over a post in the Stormlight Archives section..here..and it got me to thinking something. Why could Ruin destroy Scadrial (Or at least do his best to try)? Is Odium the only Shard who can't wipe out civilizations? I thought all the Shards had some level of non-interference cooked into them from before the Shattering? I think I also just accepted Harmony's decreasing ability to act as, at least in part, a rule/prohibition on Shards from planetary/systemic destruction? Thoughts/Enlightenments? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 22 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said: So I was just reading over a post in the Stormlight Archives section..here..and it got me to thinking something. Why could Ruin destroy Scadrial (Or at least do his best to try)? Is Odium the only Shard who can't wipe out civilizations? I thought all the Shards had some level of non-interference cooked into them from before the Shattering? I think I also just accepted Harmony's decreasing ability to act as, at least in part, a rule/prohibition on Shards from planetary/systemic destruction? Thoughts/Enlightenments? Because Ruin created Scadrial, half of it is literally made out of his investiture, and thus he has far greater control over it than Odium who just recently invested in one place, that existed before Odium came to be. Spoiler Ravi If Odium were lured to Scadrial, would his physical body turn into a burnable metal? If so, could Harmony create an Odium-metal legion of Mistings to consume and burn it? Would that weaken him sufficiently enough to be killed or destroyed? Brandon Sanderson The difficulty here is, again, one of Identity. People born on Scadrial have an Identity tied to it and its magic. Odium would have to do certain things to make them able to use a magic he fuels. He has done these things on Roshar, so it's not impossible for him to manage it on Scadrial. /r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013) Spoiler Wolfbeckett Are things that are written by scholars on Roshar suspect? In Mistborn, Ruin could change anything that was written down, so can Odium do the same? Are written words on Roshar: untrustworthy, trustworthy because that ability was somehow limited to Ruin, or trustworthy because Odium COULD do it but just won't because it's not his style/he doesn't consider it? Brandon Sanderson Odium didn't have a hand in creating Roshar, and his essence doesn't permeate it in the same way as Ruin permeated Scadrial. This gave Ruin a great deal more power over things like this--except when he ran into metals, of course. Another difference is that Odium has a fully-living, fully-aware, and very powerful Shard opposing him. (Contrasted to one that was half-dead and going mad.) So yes, you can trust much of what was written. Odium can be subtle when he needs to be, but his primary avenue of attack has been along a different line than the one Ruin used. /r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 3, 2015) Spoiler Questioner If another Shard came to Scadrial, would that be enough to create a metal like atium, or...? Brandon Sanderson If another Shard just came to visit, probably not. Questioner If they brought a spren or-- Brandon Sanderson If they came and completely Invested the world, then things might start happening. But there's some special circumstances, remember. Ruin and Preservation created that planet. Specifically. And so there's some goofy things that happened because of that. For instance Roshar was not made by Honor, Cultivation, or Odium. That's one of the big differences about what's going on there. Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015) Spoiler zas678 (paraphrased) Can Odium influence people the same way that Ruin can? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Well, you see, the kandra and the koloss have a "hole" in them that allows Ruin to come in and take over. The Parshendi naturally are protected from this, but when they expose themselves to the storms, and the spren come in, many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them, and that's what allows Odium to take control of them. zas678 (paraphrased) No, I'm talking about how Ruin was able to push people, place things in their minds, stuff like that. Can Odium do the same thing? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Well, Odium wasn't around when those people were created, so it's a little different for him than Ruin. So if he influences people in that way, it's through the Unmade. Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong she/her Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 50 minutes ago, alder24 said: Because Ruin created Scadrial, half of it is literally made out of his investiture, and thus he has far greater control over it than Odium who just recently invested in one place, that existed before Odium came to be. I disagree, none of those established that Ruin could only potentially destroy Scadrial due to his connection to it and how it was made out of him. That mostly would limit his ability to do things like, how Ruin activated the Ashmounts, and such. Not his pure destructive capacity. Odium can destroy Roshar, they established that he could pretty easily when not restrained. The issue is that currently his full power is kept locked away, so he can't go full out and actually fight and cause mass devastation to his full extent. Think about it like this, @JohnnyKaizen, Ruin was unable to fully destroy Scadrial while he was sealed away in the Well of Ascension, he could effect Scadrial in many ways to a lesser extent, but was ultimately limited. Odium is a very similar situation, not exactly the same, but both ultimately have their full capacity limited. Harmony not being able to act easily is just due to the fact that it is two completely contradictory Intents. Stasis and Entropy are so completely and utterly at odds with one another that whatever he does would essentially be acting against one of his Intents. To try and keep things the same, he is going against Ruin, to try and bring change, he is going against Preservation. Thus, over time, this becomes stronger and stronger as he becomes more aligned with this self-contradicting Intent. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 1 hour ago, JohnnyKaizen said: So I was just reading over a post in the Stormlight Archives section..here..and it got me to thinking something. Why could Ruin destroy Scadrial (Or at least do his best to try)? Is Odium the only Shard who can't wipe out civilizations? I thought all the Shards had some level of non-interference cooked into them from before the Shattering? I think I also just accepted Harmony's decreasing ability to act as, at least in part, a rule/prohibition on Shards from planetary/systemic destruction? Thoughts/Enlightenments? The non-interference thing depends on how much of that particular Shard's Investiture is present, as well as if there are any Shards opposing them. Ruin and Preservation have extreme control over Scadrial because it's made from their power. But because they were usually opposing one another in what they were trying to do, they couldn't accomplish much. Compare that with Odium, who has been on Roshar for a shorter time than Honor and Cultivation, had Honor and Cultivation opposing him for a lot of the time and then got bound by Honor close to his death, and can't risk doing anything too dramatic without exposing himself to Cultivation's attacks, and is damaged from previous battles with other Shards. Sazed's decreasing ability to act is because though Harmony is now a single Shard, it is still fundamentally made of Ruin and Preservation, including their Intents, which are directly opposed to one another. He's constantly being pulled in two different directions, and whenever he tries to do something aligned with one of them, the other one protests. Compare this with Endowment, whose planet is probably made of her power, has no Shard to oppose her, and whose Intent does not inhibit her powers in almost any way (Unlike Ruin and Preservation, whose Intents don't allow for either one of them to create anything unaided). She could do virtually anything she wanted entirely unopposed. Luckily for the Nalthians, her Intent makes her predisposed to Selflessness, and her Vessel may have been kind as well. The only 'baked-in non-interference' in the Shards as of the Shattering is the loose pact they made to not interfere with each other, and the most that does is allow malicious Shards like Odium to attack and kill other Shards. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyKaizen he/him Posted August 28, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2023 On 8/25/2023 at 5:27 PM, alder24 said: Because Ruin created Scadrial, half of it is literally made out of his investiture, and thus he has far greater control over it than Odium who just recently invested in one place, that existed before Odium came to be. Reveal hidden contents Ravi If Odium were lured to Scadrial, would his physical body turn into a burnable metal? If so, could Harmony create an Odium-metal legion of Mistings to consume and burn it? Would that weaken him sufficiently enough to be killed or destroyed? Brandon Sanderson The difficulty here is, again, one of Identity. People born on Scadrial have an Identity tied to it and its magic. Odium would have to do certain things to make them able to use a magic he fuels. He has done these things on Roshar, so it's not impossible for him to manage it on Scadrial. /r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013) Reveal hidden contents Wolfbeckett Are things that are written by scholars on Roshar suspect? In Mistborn, Ruin could change anything that was written down, so can Odium do the same? Are written words on Roshar: untrustworthy, trustworthy because that ability was somehow limited to Ruin, or trustworthy because Odium COULD do it but just won't because it's not his style/he doesn't consider it? Brandon Sanderson Odium didn't have a hand in creating Roshar, and his essence doesn't permeate it in the same way as Ruin permeated Scadrial. This gave Ruin a great deal more power over things like this--except when he ran into metals, of course. Another difference is that Odium has a fully-living, fully-aware, and very powerful Shard opposing him. (Contrasted to one that was half-dead and going mad.) So yes, you can trust much of what was written. Odium can be subtle when he needs to be, but his primary avenue of attack has been along a different line than the one Ruin used. /r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 3, 2015) Hide contents Questioner If another Shard came to Scadrial, would that be enough to create a metal like atium, or...? Brandon Sanderson If another Shard just came to visit, probably not. Questioner If they brought a spren or-- Brandon Sanderson If they came and completely Invested the world, then things might start happening. But there's some special circumstances, remember. Ruin and Preservation created that planet. Specifically. And so there's some goofy things that happened because of that. For instance Roshar was not made by Honor, Cultivation, or Odium. That's one of the big differences about what's going on there. Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015) Hide contents zas678 (paraphrased) Can Odium influence people the same way that Ruin can? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Well, you see, the kandra and the koloss have a "hole" in them that allows Ruin to come in and take over. The Parshendi naturally are protected from this, but when they expose themselves to the storms, and the spren come in, many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them, and that's what allows Odium to take control of them. zas678 (paraphrased) No, I'm talking about how Ruin was able to push people, place things in their minds, stuff like that. Can Odium do the same thing? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Well, Odium wasn't around when those people were created, so it's a little different for him than Ruin. So if he influences people in that way, it's through the Unmade. Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014) This clears up most of what was bugging me, thanks. The various WoB put together give me more context. @Underwater_Worldhopper you're making me wonder how the 16 made that deal and then Odium could go splinter shards anyway? Odium said if he breaks an oath, he'd open himself up to attack from Cultivation..but he's seemingly done that with his rampage across the Cosmere? Was the deal made pre-ascending maybe? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted August 28, 2023 Report Share Posted August 28, 2023 Just now, JohnnyKaizen said: @Underwater_Worldhopper you're making me wonder how the 16 made that deal and then Odium could go splinter shards anyway? Odium said if he breaks an oath, he'd open himself up to attack from Cultivation..but he's seemingly done that with his rampage across the Cosmere? Was the deal made pre-ascending maybe? That wasn't a binding oath, that was just an agreement or suggestion, they've made, but they weren't aware at that time that they need an oath to bind Shards. Odium still can exploit this agreement, but this isn't something like what Ruin and Preservation had made, before creating Scadrial: Spoiler Nameless36 All the Shards basically agreed not to settle on the same planet. Six of them - that we know of - immediately, basically broke that. Brandon Sanderson So... they did not make an oath to it. There was a suggestion made... and perhaps the people who made the suggestion did not understand that, if you want the Shards to do something, you need an actual Oath. And they did not get one. Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019) Spoiler Questioner It’s really heavily implied in the first Oathbringer letter that the Shards made a pact not to settle near each other. Given that a full half of the Shards ended up doing that, what is the cost for them breaking that oath? You implied earlier that there’s always a cost for Hoid, for taking his protections. Brandon Sanderson The wording of those things allows them to agree together, but it also gives them a little bit of power over one another, and you’ve seen the side effects of that on the planets where it’s happened. It has not gone well for any of them, if you kind of run the numbers on that. But the wording of it allows two, later on, to say, "Okay, we both agree." (If one said no and one said yes, then they were in trouble.) This should imply to you that Odium did get permission, as well. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong she/her Posted August 28, 2023 Report Share Posted August 28, 2023 (edited) 51 minutes ago, alder24 said: That wasn't a binding oath, that was just an agreement or suggestion, they've made, but they weren't aware at that time that they need an oath to bind Shards. Odium still can exploit this agreement, but this isn't something like what Ruin and Preservation had made, before creating Scadrial: Reveal hidden contents Nameless36 All the Shards basically agreed not to settle on the same planet. Six of them - that we know of - immediately, basically broke that. Brandon Sanderson So... they did not make an oath to it. There was a suggestion made... and perhaps the people who made the suggestion did not understand that, if you want the Shards to do something, you need an actual Oath. And they did not get one. Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019) Reveal hidden contents Questioner It’s really heavily implied in the first Oathbringer letter that the Shards made a pact not to settle near each other. Given that a full half of the Shards ended up doing that, what is the cost for them breaking that oath? You implied earlier that there’s always a cost for Hoid, for taking his protections. Brandon Sanderson The wording of those things allows them to agree together, but it also gives them a little bit of power over one another, and you’ve seen the side effects of that on the planets where it’s happened. It has not gone well for any of them, if you kind of run the numbers on that. But the wording of it allows two, later on, to say, "Okay, we both agree." (If one said no and one said yes, then they were in trouble.) This should imply to you that Odium did get permission, as well. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) Cosmere-wide spoilers Spoiler I just pieced something together. What if Ambition and Mercy were together and at one point inhabited the same planet? Odium seems to only go for Shards that cohabit a planet. First was Devotion and Dominion, then it was Ambition with Mercy also being there, then it was Honor and Cultivation. So, what if Mercy was there as Mercy cohabited with Ambition and thus opened them up to Odium's attack? I feel that would explain why Ambition is weird in being the only Shard he attacked that (as far as we know) wasn't cohabiting a planet with another Shard. I also wonder if Odium was going to attack Ruin and Preservation after he dealt with Honor and Cultivation. That would make sense with what his pattern of attack seems to be. Not exactly related, but found a funny WoB about Aona and Skai, and Mercy. Quote Chaos So Aona is a synonym for love, hmm? Is Charity the correct Shard name? Brandon Sanderson Not quite. I’m trying to remember what the guesses were for the other Shard on Sel. I may have dismissed them too quickly. Chaos How about Mercy for Aona, then? The guesses for Skai’s Shard include Devotion, Obedience, and Order Brandon Sanderson Okay, I was right, then. Ha There’s something very ironic in all of this. Edited August 28, 2023 by Firesong 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted August 28, 2023 Report Share Posted August 28, 2023 29 minutes ago, Firesong said: Cosmere spoilers: Spoiler I just pieced something together. What if Ambition and Mercy were together and at one point inhabited the same planet? Odium seems to only go for Shards that cohabit a planet. First was Devotion and Dominion, then it was Ambition with Mercy also being there, then it was Honor and Cultivation. Cosmere spoilers, because this is Mistborn sub-forum: Spoiler Yes, I thought about it too. It would make sense for Ambition and Mercy to settle together on Threnody. While I personally like the idea of Mercy “mercy-killing" Ambition and fighting on the side of Odium, this option makes a lot of sense. But Odium didn't simply go for those settling together, Ambition was the number 1 spot to kill, as she represented the force that was the biggest rival to him and Odium. If Odium was working with Mercy to Splinter Ambition, then there is no problem with any justification - they have numerical advantage. If Odium attacked both Mercy and Ambition which settled together, then he could use this "suggestion" they've made as a justification for his actions. We know Odium planned to backstab Autonomy, so Ambition being the only lonely Shard he attacked isn't that weird anymore. Spoiler graciemoo Did Mercy originally settle on Threnody? Brandon Sanderson RAFO! YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) Spoiler Valhalla (paraphrased) Did Odium Splinter all the Shards for the same reason? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) No. Some Shards he Splintered because he feared the Shard itself, and some Shards he targeted because he feared the Vessel. He was working his way down his list in order of the Shards and Vessels he felt would be most dangerous to his plans until he got stuck on Roshar. Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2016) Spoiler Double Rayse (Odium) was very methodical with the order in which he went after other Shards. Hypothetically if he'd visited the Rosharan system all those years ago but managed to avoid being trapped and was able to continue his mission right away, which of the known Shards would've been next up on Rayse's hit list? Brandon Sanderson He expected Ruin to implode. So he might have gone for Autonomy, double crossing them. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted August 28, 2023 Report Share Posted August 28, 2023 He also targeted Ambition's specifically because of her Intent. If anyone else was likely to start a crusade against the other Shards, it would be Ambition. Odium immediately began to search her out to kill her form the get-go, he just didn't end up finding her until after Devotion and Dominion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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