Jasnah's Future

[Aismeen]

I've been thinking of Jasnah's future in SA 5 and the second arc, and I've come up with two main possibilities:

1. As the Queen of Alethkar, Jasnah reforms Alethi society. She mentioned wanting to replace the current government with something else in RoW (a constitutional monarchy seems most likely) and instituting other changes like abolishing the nahn and dahn systems. After doing all this, she steps down and does something else, perhaps worldhopping, since the surge of Transportation would make that possible for her. She does seem like someone who would want to explore the greater cosmere, especially with what Hoid has told her so far.

2. Jasnah becomes Odium. This theory is a bit more farfetched, but I've seen other people talk about this both here and on Reddit. She's the last flashback character, which (presumably) means that she'll have a large part to play in the back half. Also, in a WoB, Brandon says:

Quote

Questioner

Would Jasnah be able to handle Odium's power with her experience handling strong emotions?

Brandon Sanderson

She would be a good candidate.

Questioner

Will she become Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh come on, now you're just fishing for RAFO cards!

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

Rayse says that Odium is more passion than hatred, and he gets consumed by that passion. However, Jasnah is shown to be stoic and levelheaded, with an iron grip on her emotions. This would make it much easier for her to tame Odium's Intent and use the passion for something that she has determined to be morally correct. Also, Ivory has said that she is more like a spren than a person and does not "change on simple whims," which might make her much more resistant to corruption under the influence of Odium.

Of course, it's not a perfect solution, but I think Hoid would be hesitant to solve the Odium problem by outright Splintering him, so this seems possible.

The two options are also not mutually exclusive---in the back half, Jasnah could reform Alethi society, step down, and then become Odium.

Also, someone mentioned Splinters of Honor combining with Odium to form some kind of dual shard, which could also be a solution, but I feel like that would be too similar to Harmony for Brandon to do.

What do you think?

 

[Stormgate he/him]

It's entirely possible, although I'm not sure how probable. I do think that a dual Shard of some sort may be coming, perhaps depending on how Sanderson wants to take the story of the Cosmere. Harmony is currently the most powerful entity in the Cosmere, but that has inherent issues. But Hoid is much more present here, and he might manipulate the situation into something less problematic. My thoughts go back to TWoK, where Hoid tries name dropping Adonalsium to Dalinar and covers by mentioning what would happen if you took a man apart, and then put him back together. Perhaps something like that is Hoid's endgame.

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ he/him]

26 minutes ago, Stormgate said:

It's entirely possible, although I'm not sure how probable. I do think that a dual Shard of some sort may be coming, perhaps depending on how Sanderson wants to take the story of the Cosmere. Harmony is currently the most powerful entity in the Cosmere, but that has inherent issues. But Hoid is much more present here, and he might manipulate the situation into something less problematic. My thoughts go back to TWoK, where Hoid tries name dropping Adonalsium to Dalinar and covers by mentioning what would happen if you took a man apart, and then put him back together. Perhaps something like that is Hoid's endgame.

My logical sense makes me think that this is more probable, but at the same time, we just saw this happen. And Brandon isn't just going to give us exactly what we expect. Also. Odium is one of the most powerful shards. Brandon says that he could defeat Harmony though not in power but also with experience. If he merged with another shard, he would be unstoppable. So i kind of do see something like this Jasnah theory happenning.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

I feel like #2 would, narratively speaking, be a huge disservice to the end of RoW if it came at any point earlier than book 10 or something

I feel like Jasnah will remain queen as long as Alethkar exists, which depending on how SA5 goes may or may not be a while!

 

[MistbornMathematician]

As far as what Jasnah wants, I wrote a post a while back about how I think it's quite likely she intends to consolidate power and enforce an extreme/fringe political ideology upon as much of Roshar as she can.

As far as Odium goes, Jasnah has displayed on several occasions that she is quite susceptible to losing her temper, especially when disagreed with or otherwise provoked. The most notable example is with Amaram, where she comments on how she's disappointed with herself for how she acted, but we also see this with Kaladin, the street thugs, and just about anyone that gets in her way. 

The combination of the two, though, makes me think that Jasnah getting Odium would be extremely dangerous. If the emotion that she has the most trouble controlling is anger, she probably should stay far, far away from that shard. 

[Aismeen]

2 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

 

I feel like #2 would, narratively speaking, be a huge disservice to the end of RoW if it came at any point earlier than book 10 or something

 

I agree. I was thinking that if #2 were to occur, it would be in SA 10 as a conclusion to the series. 

[alder24]

13 hours ago, Aismeen said:

2. Jasnah becomes Odium. This theory is a bit more farfetched, but I've seen other people talk about this both here and on Reddit. She's the last flashback character, which (presumably) means that she'll have a large part to play in the back half. Also, in a WoB, Brandon says:

I used to think that Jasnah replacing Odium could happen (unlikely but still could) but with the release of RoW and Taravangian Ascension, I doubt Brandon will switch Odium's Vessel again. What's likely is that Dual Shard is coming next, a combination of Honor and Odium. I don't think Jasnah will Ascend.

But she will reform Alethkar, and later I think she might become a worldhopper or even Silverlight scholar - she wants to know, and there are worlds out there full of knowledge to discover. She might be important player in future Cosmere.

[Blackwarder]

Taravangian needed to be pure emotion for the shard of odium to embrace it, I doubt that Jasnah will be able to become odium.

My personal theory is that Lift will be the next ascendant shard holder and due to her boon would be able to remain impervious to the shard influance making her the ultimate odium.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

6 hours ago, Blackwarder said:

Taravangian needed to be pure emotion for the shard of odium to embrace it, I doubt that Jasnah will be able to become odium.

That's a good point, Jasnah doesn't put enough stock in her emotions to have the necessary Connection to Odium.

6 hours ago, Blackwarder said:

My personal theory is that Lift will be the next ascendant shard holder and due to her boon would be able to remain impervious to the shard influance making her the ultimate odium.

I don't know about that. Her boon wouldn't be strong enough to stop the influence of a Shard.

[alder24]

7 hours ago, Blackwarder said:

Taravangian needed to be pure emotion for the shard of odium to embrace it, I doubt that Jasnah will be able to become odium.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That's a good point, Jasnah doesn't put enough stock in her emotions to have the necessary Connection to Odium.

You don't need to be the embodiment of emotions to Ascend to Odium. You need to be sufficiently Connected and you need to understand the nature of the Shard to Ascend. Jasnah certainly had her emotional moments, especially with Amaram, which clearly included hatred - she still feels emotion, just doesn't show them or let them control her. That's different from not feeling anything at all. Connection to the Shard can be made with different means other than emotions, Bondsmith can forge/strengthen it for example.

7 hours ago, Blackwarder said:

My personal theory is that Lift will be the next ascendant shard holder and due to her boon would be able to remain impervious to the shard influance making her the ultimate odium.

What is her boon? How would it make her impervious to Shard's influence? She is changing and growing up. And I doubt a boon and curse is enough to resist the full power of the Shard. Taravangian certainly seemed to be extremely intelligent when he took the Shard, and that was on his day of passion - I think that proves boon and curse stops working after Ascension.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You don't need to be the embodiment of emotions to Ascend to Odium. You need to be sufficiently Connected and you need to understand the nature of the Shard to Ascend. Jasnah certainly had her emotional moments, especially with Amaram, which clearly included hatred - she still feels emotion, just doesn't show them or let them control her. That's different from not feeling anything at all.

That's the thing. Obviously, she has feelings and experiences emotions, but everyone does. That doesn't mean anyone could just Ascend to Odium. You'd need to be way more in tune with your emotions, or just feel them extremely intensely, to be able to Ascend with Odium. I don't think Jasnah fits that category, doesn't understand what the Shard of Odium represents sufficiently, to be able to Ascend.

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Connection to the Shard can be made with different means other than emotions, Bondsmith can forge/strengthen it for example.

So can the Ire Orb, but at that point, using artificial Connection, anyone could Ascend to the Shard. But this could make it possible for Jasnah to Ascend, yes, so long as she has Dalinar or Navani handy.

[Blackwarder]

On 25/08/2023 at 6:15 PM, alder24 said:

What is her boon? How would it make her impervious to Shard's influence? She is changing and growing up. And I doubt a boon and curse is enough to resist the full power of the Shard. Taravangian certainly seemed to be extremely intelligent when he took the Shard, and that was on his day of passion - I think that proves boon and curse stops working after Ascension.

She asked to still remain herself when all else is changing. In her mind it meant staying a little girl but we know that isn’t the case.

I’m thinking that what cultivation did was strengthen her spiritual web in such way that she can’t be influenced by outside forces, including shards. I also think that she didn’t received a boon and curse from the nightwatcher, she received something directly from cultivation, same as what happened to Dalinar and Taravangian.

 

I agree that there are ways for someone who isn’t fully compatible with a shard to bond it, but it doesn’t mean that it would be a good match just look at Kelsier and preservation. I don’t believe that Jasnah is a good candidate for the shard of pure hatred or passion, OTOH an Edgedancer who can’t be easily influenced but the shard would be a huge game changer. Enough so we will have to change the shards name.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Blackwarder

[alder24]

5 hours ago, Blackwarder said:

She asked to still remain herself when all else is changing. In her mind it meant staying a little girl but we know that isn’t the case.

Or it isn't working because Cultivation is all about change, not stasis. Or Lift asked for something else, just like Dalinar asked for forgiveness instead of taking away his pain, and the memory of this was taken away from her like from Dalinar and Taravangian.

5 hours ago, Blackwarder said:

I’m thinking that what cultivation did was strengthen her spiritual web in such way that she can’t be influenced by outside forces, including shards.

That wouldn't work like that. Investiture resist investiture, she would have to be massively invested to resist a Shard influence but all of that wouldn't matter anymore if she Ascend to a Shard. If it was like you're proposing then how is she changing then? Why was she able to bond a spren if she "can’t be influenced by outside forces"? Why did suppression fabrial partially work on her and she lost her powers?

Moreover Taravangian didn't seem so dumb when he Ascended, he actually seemed awfully smart, as he immediately spotted a loophole in a contract. It looks like a bone and curse stop affecting him as soon as he Ascended, which makes sense, as a tiny fraction of Cultivation's power won't hold up against a full, infinite power of a Shard. 

I think Cultivation made Lift more susceptible to self-perception and gave her the ability to heal and generate Lifelight. Her appearance is now strongly filtered by her self-perception in the same way that's happening to some Cognitive Shadows, and she subconsciously heals herself to that self-image. She definitely can be influenced by other forces - a Nahel Bond is an outside influence, which changed her. 

5 hours ago, Blackwarder said:

I also think that she didn’t received a boon and curse from the nightwatcher, she received something directly from cultivation, same as what happened to Dalinar and Taravangian.

Both Dalinar and Taravangian did receive a curse - Dalinar's curse was that he will lose Evi but his memories will return one day. Taravangian’s one was that he can't have both intelligence and compassion together. I see no reason why Lift wouldn't have a curse as well - not as obvious like when other people met Nightwatcher, but still a curse. OB ch 114:

Quote

WHAT I TAKE FROM YOU WILL GROW BACK EVENTUALLY. THIS IS PART OF THE COST. [...]
A BOON AND A CURSE, the Mother said. THAT IS HOW IT IS DONE. I WILL TAKE THESE THINGS FROM YOUR MIND. AND WITH THEM, I TAKE HER. [...]
“You’ll take Evi from me?”
ALL MEMORIES OF HER. THIS IS THE COST. SHOULD I FORBEAR?

 

5 hours ago, Blackwarder said:

I agree that there are ways for someone who isn’t fully compatible with a shard to bond it, but it doesn’t mean that it would be a good match just look at: Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

Kelsier and preservation.

 

Please either delete spoilers from your post or put them in a spoiler box with a warning - this is a SA subforum only. No spoilers outside of SA are allowed here without a spoiler box.

Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

Yes, but the main problem of Kelsier was that he didn't understand what Preservation is all about. Jasnah can learn to understand the nature of Odium and be better fitted to it even with forced Connection.

Brandon did confirm that Jasnah would be a good candidate to control Odium - it might be hard for Jasnah to become Odium, but once she Ascends, she will control it, even with forced Connection. As we saw from Taravangian's Ascension, he was constantly overwhelmed by Odium's emotional urge to burn and destroy - he was able to control it and give himself a different purpose, so could Jasnah with her experience of controlling her emotions. Holding a Shard is a contest of wills, and both Jasnah and Taravangian have a really strong will. I'm not saying that she will Ascend to Odium, only that she would be able to control it well, just like the WoB said.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Shards and Shard intents: Holding a Shard is a contest of willpower against the Shard that, over time, is very hard to resist.

Shards affect you over time, but your mind will not leave a permanent effect on the Shard. A holder's [Vessel's] personality, however, does get to filter the Shard's intent, so to speak. However, if that holder [Vessel] no longer held that Shard, the Shard will not continue to be filtered by that person.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

 

5 hours ago, Blackwarder said:

I don’t believe that Jasnah is a good candidate for the shard of pure hatred or passion, OTOH an Edgedancer who can’t be easily influenced but the shard would be a huge game changer. Enough so we will have to change the shards name.

Why would an Edgedancer be a better candidate when they are all about compassion, not hatred? Keep in mind Rayse claimed to be Passion, that was his interpretation of Odium's intent, which the power resisted. Someone new can have a different, better interpretation of Shard's intent, which the power will accept. Just because Rayse called it Passion, doesn't mean that being passionate is necessary to Ascend and control the Shard. Mistborn spoiler WoB:

Spoiler

Ruin's intent was successfully shaped by Ati to represent entropy:

Spoiler

Alvaro Lopez

Why Odium is stronger and worst evil than Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

One reason is that Ruin had a person in control of it who, for many years, fought against the impulse to destroy--and in the end, channeled it toward entropy and decay, necessary elements of the universe. Odium represents something else entirely.

General Twitter 2018 (June 6, 2018)

 

 

[coolsnow7]

On 8/14/2023 at 6:51 PM, Stormgate said:

It's entirely possible, although I'm not sure how probable. I do think that a dual Shard of some sort may be coming, perhaps depending on how Sanderson wants to take the story of the Cosmere. Harmony is currently the most powerful entity in the Cosmere, but that has inherent issues. But Hoid is much more present here, and he might manipulate the situation into something less problematic. My thoughts go back to TWoK, where Hoid tries name dropping Adonalsium to Dalinar and covers by mentioning what would happen if you took a man apart, and then put him back together. Perhaps something like that is Hoid's endgame.

A shard of War that starts Cosmere War always made sense to me, but I don’t see enough other pieces lined up to have a concrete theory about it.