Why Snapping is of Preservation

[Duxredux he/him]

I've read a few people talk about how Snapping seems weird and messed up and wanted to share my take on it. If you disagree feel free to share your views.

At the core, Snapping is about self-preservation. Nature in general and for the purpose of this thread humanity specifically can do amazing things when put under extreme conditions. Mental and physiological changes happen when people are in a survival scenario, where they not only learn that they can make themselves do things that they would never consider doing, but that they are physically able to do extraordinary things. Under specific conditions people can lift cars, survive in freezing water for hours, cut off their own arm, or live off of seals for months (yes I've heard stories of each of these). Narratives of these experiences not infrequently describe hidden reserves or wells of energy that the person didn't know that they had, and snapping might not be a bad term for suddenly deciding you need to cut your arm off to survive. This is much deeper than simple adrenaline.

In the Cosmere however, when the soul is reaching out to survive, a Shard responds. What Scadrians have that is different is the innate spark given to them by Preservation, sometimes the power of Preservation instilled in their bloodline, and with that Connection when they reach out instinctively in desperation to survive they gain access to Preservation's power. Allomancers get an even deeper Connection to this power. Harmony who has access to both Ruin's ability to crack souls and Preservation's ability to reinforce souls likely has options available to Snap new Allomancers that Preservation alone never had.

Like with many aspects of Allomancy in TFE, Snapping in of itself is not evil, but the conditions it sets on obtaining power lead to horrible things done by the likes of Straff Venture. The old mechanism of Snapping is probably still viable after the Catacendre though unnecessary for those with access to Allomancy and is likely the reason why the Set's non-lethal Hemalurgic spiking was more effective when the donor was tortured.

If you think about it, Allomancy doesn't restrict you at all from killing others, but it generally makes you better at surviving. Pewter, Iron, Steel, Copper, and Tin are the more obvious exanples, but even metals like brass help you survive as can be seen with Vin's "Luck". Perhaps even the seemingly useless Allomantic abilities will prove advantageous in the context of all the ways to get killed in the Cosmere on a physical, cognitive, or spiritual level.

How does this relate to Snapping in other magic systems? I'll let others discuss that as I'm nearing the end of my posting time.

[Quantus he/him]

Snapping is a little more cosmere-wide than just being "Of Preservation" persay, it has more to do with the realmics of it all and how the Spiritweb and Connections work.  Allomancer's were born with the allomantic potential (outside godmetal or Hemalurgy shenanigans) and the 'sector' of the spiritweb circuitry to accomplish it all, but to forge the actual power link Connnection to Preservatin that channels the Investiture, their spiritweb needs a Crack for the external Connection to latch on to. Until that happens they are a machine with no power cord attached.  

Stormlight Archive Spoiler: 

Spoiler

This is the same as when a person Bonds a Spren, the Investiture itself need the cracks in the Spiritweb to gain a foothold and form the Bond required.  

 

[Firesong she/her]

Just now, Quantus said:

Snapping is a little more cosmere-wide than just being "Of Preservation" persay, it has more to do with the realmics of it all and how the Spiritweb and Connections work.  Allomancer's were born with the allomantic potential (outside godmetal or Hemalurgy shenanigans) and the 'sector' of the spiritweb circuitry to accomplish it all, but to forge the actual power link Connnection to Preservatin that channels the Investiture, their spiritweb needs a Crack for the external Connection to latch on to. Until that happens they are a machine with no power cord attached.  

Stormlight Archive Spoiler: 

  Reveal hidden contents

This is the same as when a person Bonds a Spren, the Investiture itself need the cracks in the Spiritweb to gain a foothold and form the Bond required.  

 

The issue is that Snapping can kill you, which came from Ruin. Once Preservation and Ruin were brought under one Vessel (and Preservation stopped being held by a dying Vessel), Snapping became far safer. 

[therunner he/him]

4 hours ago, Firesong said:

The issue is that Snapping can kill you, which came from Ruin. Once Preservation and Ruin were brought under one Vessel (and Preservation stopped being held by a dying Vessel), Snapping became far safer. 

Snapping did not become easier because Ruin and Preservation were united, but because Sazed chose to alter it to make it easier
 

Quote

Fyodor32768

In Alloy of Law, are people still Snapping?

Brandon Sanderson

Sazed chose to alter the way Snapping works. It bothered him. It does happen, but differently.

General Twitter 2011 (Nov. 14, 2011)

Quote

Questioner

The change in how the magic (on Scadrial) interact with each other, was that done by Sazed?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes it was. You will find a theme. The snapping in Mistborn is actually a repeated theme through a lot of the different magics. Um, but what I felt at the end of the day Sazed would do something about it. So, even though that is part of the magic system, he changed that. The change to Feruchemy is more a matter of other factors such as the large amount of interbreeding that happened following...and things like that. And so a lot of people with Feruchemy sDNA mixing with people with people with Allomantic sDNA has affected the way the magics blend, so to speak. That's not done by Sazed. That's just kind of an effect.

Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013)

Quote

 

KChan

How does Snapping work after Sazed changed it? If you don't want to reveal it all right now, are there any hints you can give us?

Brandon Sanderson

He couldn't get rid of this entirely. I don't want to spoil things, but Snapping was built into Allomancy primarily because of larger-scale magical issues. This is getting deep into the issue, but it has to do with a person's spiritual makeup and a 'wounded' spirit being easier to fill with something else, kind of like a cut would let something into the bloodstream. Sazed made this threshold on Scadrial much easier to obtain.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 25, 2012)

 

Open question is if there are side-effects to this lowered thershold or not.

[Firesong she/her]

Just now, therunner said:

Snapping did not become easier because Ruin and Preservation were united, but because Sazed chose to alter it to make it easier
 

Open question is if there are side-effects to this lowered thershold or not.

You are proving my point, he choose to because he could control Ruin. Not mad, but I am confused at how this is a rebuttal. 

[therunner he/him]

3 minutes ago, Firesong said:

You are proving my point, he choose to because he could control Ruin. Not mad, but I am confused at how this is a rebuttal. 

Because the way you wrote it, it sounded like inevitable effect of uniting Shards, which it is not.

Additionally, there is no evidence that he required both Shards under his control to do it, only volition from his end.
And since Allomancy is only Preservation's Invested Art, it makes little sense that Ruin would have any control over how it is accessed.

It is possible he simply altered it because he did not like it, using only Preservation, and Leras did not because he was
 

1. Too far gone mentally to do really much of anything for that millenium Allomancers existed in large numbers.
2. Too subsumed by Shard's intent to be willing to actually change something.

Edited August 14, 2023 by therunner

[Firesong she/her]

5 minutes ago, therunner said:

Because the way you wrote it, it sounded like inevitable effect of uniting Shards, which it is not.

Additionally, there is no evidence that he required both Shards under his control to do it, only volition from his end.
And since Allomancy is only Preservation's Invested Art, it makes little sense that Ruin would have any control over how it is accessed.

It is possible he simply altered it because he did not like it, using only Preservation, and Leras did not because he was
 

1. Too far gone mentally to do really much of anything for that millenium Allomancers existed in large numbers.
2. Too subsumed by Shard's intent to be willing to actually change something.

I remember it being stated that Snapping being deadly wasn't an intentional part of the arts, and was just Ruin's influence making it far deadlier. I have a rather vivid memory of this. And Allomancy isn't pure Preservation, just mostly Preservation. All 3 systems have aspects of both Shards. None of them are 100% one Shard and 0% the other. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Firesong

[Duxredux he/him]

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

I remember it being stated that Snapping being deadly wasn't an intentional part of the arts, and was just Ruin's influence making it far deadlier. I have a rather vivid memory of this. And Allomancy isn't pure Preservation, just mostly Preservation. All 3 systems have aspects of both Shards. None of them are 100% one Shard and 0% the other. 

If I remember right, it wasn't Snapping that was deadly, it was the Mists that had been left to their own devices once Preservation gave up his mind, and those Mists are what Ruin enhanced to become more deadly. Is this what you were remembering?

Quote

Snapping has always been the dark side of Allomancy. A person's genetic endowment may make them a potential Allomancer, but in order for the power to manifest, the body must be put through extraordinary trauma. Though Elend spoke of how terrible his beating was, during our day, unlocking Allomancy in a person was easier than it had once been, for we had the infusion of Preservation's power into the human bloodlines via the nuggets granted to nobility by the Lord Ruler. When Preservation set up the mists, he was afraid of Ruin escaping his prison. In those early days, before the Ascension, the mists began to Snap people as they did during our time—but this action of the mists was one of the only ways to awaken Allomancy in a person, for the genetic attributes were buried too deeply to be brought out by a simple beating. The mists of that day created Mistings only, of course—there were no Mistborn until the Lord Ruler made use of the nuggets. The people misinterpreted the mists' intent, as the process of Snapping Allomancers caused some—particularly the young and the old—to die. This hadn't been Preservation's desire, but he'd given up most of his consciousness to form Ruin's prison, and the mists had to be left to work as best they could without specific direction. Ruin, subtle as ever, knew that he couldn't stop the mists from doing their work. However, he could do the unexpected and encourage them. And so, he helped make them stronger. That brought death to the plants of the world, and created the threat that became known as the Deepness. -Hero of Ages Epigraph 81

It's the trauma to the soul that allows a person to Snap. Snapping itself is not a trauma-causing phenomenon. The mists caused sickness and trauma to activate powers, but were not the direct mechanism that allowed a person to manifest Allomancy.

[Lockheart]

So, warning... Long road ahead. My thoughts are sincere, and I'm team Roshar here. I probably will have tons of grammar, spelling, and structural mistakes that I don't care enough to go back and fix like the grammar natsoc I normally am. Because this device is poo, and my back hurts, and I'm old, and you kids don't know how good you have it these days, I need a nap. 

 

I've seen the idea on a few threads lately that Preservation was a big ol jerkface because snapping is like super not nice... And it bugged me enough to pop in to opine. Also, I haven't seen what to me seems like a pretty logical point expressed, so sorry... You're stuck with me, and my crummy "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" point of view.

 

Era 1 Mistborn... Mistborn have been around what, 1000 years by the time Kel is seen smiling in the field? I'm sure someone can tap in with the precise timeframe, but you get the gist regardless. 

 

From TLR taking the power at the well and giving his closest homies that little bead of magic mojo metal, how many generations do you think it took for Early Mistborn and noble families to understand that trauma potentially (but not always)=not being judged for drinking Goldschlager at 8:17 in the morning? Let's be conservative and say it took 5 generations, or about 100 years for them to realize when the awkward kid at the mansion three manors down got kicked in the dome by a horse, he not only didn't die, but was fine and had a whole new swagger about him?

 

So, from that point, to the takedown of TLR, 900 years has gone by. Where over time people have forgotten "mistsickness" because superstition and ignorance kept people locked inside away from the mist which caused the mechanism of mist snapping to disappear from memory. Only to be replaced by "welp, the heir hasn't snapped yet, hold this belt and give me a bat" being essentially the only known viable way to unlock that conduit. 

 

Preservation didn't have a dark side (in this respect anyway...), the lust for power, positioning, court advantages, favor with TLR, and the fundamental ignorance of the latter generations caused a cultural decay to fester. 

 

Think about the concept this way. How many of you guys have a friend that when a mechanism, or remote, or phone, etc doesn't work after a try or two they don't sit back, reevaluate, ask themselves what could they possibly getting wrong, but instead the mash the button again, just harder this time. Harder than that the next. After the finger reaches maximum button press power level, they start yelling at or cursing said device upon each unsuccessful attempt.

 

When all they had to do was take that nanosecond and say "oh crud, this door opens out instead of pushing in". 

 

If you haven't the faintest idea what I mean or can't think of a single person in your orbit who does that I hate to break it to you, but you're the extra hard 8th attempt and yelling friend that your buddies enjoy watching melt down. 

 

Pulling back on track here, 900 years of "beat the kid harder. He'll either snap or die, I'll just make another" is what people SHOULD be upset over. That lust for the edge over your rivals pushing you to murdering your own offspring is not only brutal, it's disgusting and speaks volumes about human nature. 

 

The brutality is in the less than perfect construct, not the creator. 

 

Now, where have we seen other magic systems where the "snap" to make the connection hasn't been referred to as brutal (yet, that ive noticed and feel is far far worse)? 

Stormlight spoilers:
 

Spoiler

 

Roshar. Tien, as a child love his big bro so deep, it HAD to have put the kind of psychological stress on a boy not yet 10 that would crush most people. 

 

How about Kaladin? Seeing his little bro stolen away from the security of home, out of some arrogant highlords need for petty revenge... Instinctively volunteering to go to war, after spending your life balanced between two worlds, knowing it will take a toll on your parents. 

 

You think maybe Tien had a split second to muddle over the brutality of his death in that moment he saw death coming down? Shucks, it would have been gee golly neato if the scare alone would have snapped him up to KR lvl II like a Scadrian gut punch on a 6 year old.

 

Now consider Kals POV to that same 5 second snippet of his young life. 

I could go on, but I think y'all get it eh?

 

Im of the opinion the snap involved in SA is leaps and bounds more brutal than pops and his brothers laying down a whooping in Mistborn. The difference? Rosharans don't go throwing their children to the wolves to gain them a ghosty imaginaryish buddy and mystical wicked awesome magic. 

 

I wonder if anyone has done the math on 1000 years of noble children who died of their failed snap attempts (and to add insult to injury, how many of them died because the parent doing the beating didn't take it quite far enough to get that oh so slim Jim like snap before escalating the situation to a fatal strike perhaps with a weapon in the single breath it took to take that step) vs current timeline SA not quite radiant but certainly dead folk that died during their conduit opening experience. (Thinking emoji) Considering the population differences, the magic user ratios on each planet, and heck, any factors of ones chosing, I'd have to believe that in the few years we've been visiting Roshar, more "stretch out thy ha.... Crud nevermind" type folks were brutaled to death before getting their floating, talking, tamagachi things which would have kept them alive next to them pansies on Scadrial who couldn't take the backhand poppa threw.

Roshar wins for brutality. And for being a completely underwater ecosystem without water everywhere... But my brain does it's thinking thing and now I believe that Roshar IS a completely flooded planet that experiences weather, has bodies of water, moving water, etc. I mean if SpongeBob gets hellawicked water in water world building, then so does Roshar. 

 

That's my rant. Any spelling or continuity errors can be blamed solely on this junk phone and it's inability to keep up with my key strokes. Phones fault! Hindsight being 2020, I should have outlined this, bullet pointing each section summary, then spoilering the meat and potatoes of each point I incomprehensibly made, keeping my thoughts and their articulation need and orderly. But I'm more of an organized chaos personality. Without the organization. So... Chaos. That's what it's called. If I was a nice dude, I'd go back and do that now... But I'm tired and it's time for breakfast. 

 

(PS, I'm clear minded and level headed, no need to have me sent back to the place with the flavored wallpaper). Enjoy your day folks, I'll post again in another 3 to 5 years or so. Hopefully one or two of you chuckled.

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Chaos
edited for a few reasons including to add a spoiler box

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Lockheart said:

I've seen the idea on a few threads lately that Preservation was a big ol jerkface because snapping is like super not nice... And it bugged me enough to pop in to opine. Also, I haven't seen what to me seems like a pretty logical point expressed, so sorry... You're stuck with me, and my crummy "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" point of view.

It was literally explained in this topic and few others. Quoting from other topic: 

Spoiler

Unfortunately, to form Connection with Preservation, you need cracks in the soul - that's what snapping does, makes cracks in the soul that are filled with Connection to Preservation, making a person into Misting/Mistborn. However snapping being deadly is the effect of Ruin's influence - Preservation wasn't in control at this time - he set up the system to work autonomously, as his mind was almost used up. Ruin however was able to slightly mess up the system, causing it to become more violent than it needed to be. HoA ch 81:

Quote

Snapping has always been the dark side of Allomancy. A person's genetic endowment may make them a potential Allomancer, but in order for the power to manifest, the body must be put through extraordinary trauma. Though Elend spoke of how terrible his beating was, during our day, unlocking Allomancy in a person was easier than it had once been, for we had the infusion of Preservation's power into the human bloodlines via the nuggets granted to nobility by the Lord Ruler.

When Preservation set up the mists, he was afraid of Ruin escaping his prison. In those early days, before the Ascension, the mists began to Snap people as they did during our time—but this action of the mists was one of the only ways to awaken Allomancy in a person, for the genetic attributes were buried too deeply to be brought out by a simple beating. The mists of that day created Mistings only, of course—there were no Mistborn until the Lord Ruler made use of the nuggets.

The people misinterpreted the mists' intent, as the process of Snapping Allomancers caused some—particularly the young and the old—to die. This hadn't been Preservation's desire, but he'd given up most of his consciousness to form Ruin's prison, and the mists had to be left to work as best they could without specific direction.

Ruin, subtle as ever, knew that he couldn't stop the mists from doing their work. However, he could do the unexpected and encourage them. And so, he helped make them stronger. That brought death to the plants of the world, and created the threat that became known as the Deepness.

WoB:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Seventy

The Reason for the Mistsickness

So, it finally comes out. I wonder at this numbers plot, as I think many readers will glaze over it and ignore it. I think others will read into it and figure out what it means very quickly, then feel that the reveal here isn't much of a revelation. Hopefully I'll get a majority in the middle who read the clues, don't know what they mean, but are happily surprised when it comes together. That's a difficult line to walk sometimes.

What is going on here is that the mists are awakening the Allomantic potential inside of people. It's very rough on a person for that to come out, and can cause death. Preservation set this all up before he gave his consciousness to imprison Ruin, so it's not a perfect system. It's like a machine left behind by its creator. The catalyst is the return of the power to the Well of Ascension. As soon as that power becomes full, it sets the mists to begin Snapping those who have the potential for Allomancy buried within them.

Many of these people won't be very strong Allomancers. Their abilities were buried too deeply to have come out without the mists' intervention. Others will have a more typical level of power; they might have Snapped earlier, had they gone through enough anguish to bring the power out.

My idea on this is that Allomantic potential is a little like a supersaturated solution. You can suspend a great deal of something like sugar in a liquid when it is hot, then cool it down and the sugar remains suspended. Drop one bit of sugar in there as a catalyst, however, and the rest will fall out as a precipitate.

Allomancy is the same. It's in there, but it takes a reaction—in this case, physical anguish—to trigger it and bring it out. That's because the Allomantic power comes from the extra bit of Preservation inside of humans, that same extra bit that gives us free will. This bit is trapped between the opposing forces of Preservation and Ruin, and to come out and allow it the power to access metals and draw forth energy, it needs to fight its way through the piece of Ruin that is also there inside.

As has been established, Ruin's control over creatures—and, indeed, an Allomancer's control over them—grows weaker when that creature is going through some extreme emotions. (Like the koloss blood frenzy.) This has to do with the relationship between the Cognitive Realm, the Physical Realm, and the Spiritual Realm—of which I don't have time to speak right now.

Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn't happen as frequently and is more difficult to control.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (March 30, 2010)

 

 

2 hours ago, Lockheart said:

From TLR taking the power at the well and giving his closest homies that little bead of magic mojo metal, how many generations do you think it took for Early Mistborn and noble families to understand that trauma potentially (but not always)=not being judged for drinking Goldschlager at 8:17 in the morning? Let's be conservative and say it took 5 generations, or about 100 years for them to realize when the awkward kid at the mansion three manors down got kicked in the dome by a horse, he not only didn't die, but was fine and had a whole new swagger about him?

0 - Rashek gained detailed understanding of Allomancy when he held the power of the Well - he would simply told kings about Snapping. 

2 hours ago, Lockheart said:

So, from that point, to the takedown of TLR, 900 years has gone by. Where over time people have forgotten "mistsickness" because superstition and ignorance kept people locked inside away from the mist which caused the mechanism of mist snapping to disappear from memory. Only to be replaced by "welp, the heir hasn't snapped yet, hold this belt and give me a bat" being essentially the only known viable way to unlock that conduit. 

Snapping caused by Mists was activated when the Well was getting almost full, when the Well was used by Rasher, Mists stopped snapping people, as the danger was averted. Plus before Rashek's Ascension people didn't know they were turned into Allomancers by Mists - even Alendi who heard the pulses of the Well because he was a Seeker, didn't know that at all. Allomancy was almost fully unknown before Rashek's Ascension. It's easy to froget when poeple didn't know it in the first place. 

2 hours ago, Lockheart said:

Pulling back on track here, 900 years of "beat the kid harder. He'll either snap or die, I'll just make another" is what people SHOULD be upset over. That lust for the edge over your rivals pushing you to murdering your own offspring is not only brutal, it's disgusting and speaks volumes about human nature. 

Yes.

2 hours ago, Lockheart said:

Now, where have we seen other magic systems where the "snap" to make the connection hasn't been referred to as brutal (yet, that ive noticed and feel is far far worse)? 

Roshar.

SA spoilers:

Spoiler

 

 

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2 hours ago, Lockheart said:

Spoiler

Roshar. Tien, as a child love his big bro so deep, it HAD to have put the kind of psychological stress on a boy not yet 10 that would crush most people. 

How about Kaladin? Seeing his little bro stolen away from the security of home, out of some arrogant highlords need for petty revenge... Instinctively volunteering to go to war, after spending your life balanced between two worlds, knowing it will take a toll on your parents. 

You think maybe Tien had a split second to muddle over the brutality of his death in that moment he saw death coming down? Shucks, it would have been gee golly neato if the scare alone would have snapped him up to KR lvl II like a Scadrian gut punch on a 6 year old.

Now consider Kals POV to that same 5 second snippet of his young life. 

I could go on, but I think y'all get it eh?

 

SA spoilers:

Spoiler

Yes, and no. The thing is, on Roshar spren are involved and they are making a conscious decision to bond - you need to convince spren to bond you. Being snapped certainly helps as it makes investiture easier to get into your soul but isn't a necessity. Not everyone was broken that hard as Kaladin. 

Spoiler

Questioner

So there’s Snapping on Scadrial, where an event happens and then you can use the magic.  Is there something like Snapping on Roshar, where...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes and no.  They’re working under the same sort of assumption, the spren are just looking for a specific thing that is similar to what Snapping does.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

How come on Sel and Scadrial the people get their powers like in a rush either overnight or by snapping, while on Roshar it's very slow and subtle.

Brandon Sanderson

On Roshar there is another participant involved, since you're making a bond with a spren, and that has a big effect on it. You also have some very odd things happening on Sel that are causing a lot of oddity in the way that the magic works. I would call it mostly just a flavor of the different styles of magic and what's going on, but the way that flavor works involves the spren and involves how the Dor is on Sel.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

If someone out of Roshar knows the Immortal Words, and he's, for example, a kandra, can he become a Knight?

Brandon Sanderson

So, becoming a Knight Radiant is up to the spren, right? Saying the Ideals, swearing the oaths, these sorts of things, you have to convince a piece of sapient Investiture that you deserve it, and that's the main thing.

Questioner

And the kandra?

Brandon Sanderson

So, the kandra would have to lots of fast talking, and there are a few more difficulties involved, but this is theoretically possible. For instance, taking some pieces of Investiture offworld are difficult.

Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

 

 

That was certainly an interesting opinion of yours. I've enjoyed reading it. 

Edited August 18, 2023 by alder24