Firesong she/her Posted August 11, 2023 Report Share Posted August 11, 2023 I have a suggestion on something for various pages, and want to see how much people agree. What about adding a list of official translations for terms, situated in a table near the bottom, like what they have on the LotR Wiki. Like on the Stormlight page we would be like Spanish | Luz tormentosa Would be a neat way to show how other languages translate terms, it is always so fascinating. If not, I at least think it is a good idea to do it for translations of book titles, due to how they sometimes have completely different titles in different languages. Especially German and Japanese versions. So like: French | La Voie des Rois Polish | Droga Krolow etc and for the versions split into several books with different titles, we can spit it into a subtable of sorts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus he/him Posted August 11, 2023 Report Share Posted August 11, 2023 Definitely sounds interesting, I do always find it interesting to see how other languages translate the more esoteric fantasy terms. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted August 12, 2023 Report Share Posted August 12, 2023 (edited) Maybe a linked tangential page, the same way we have: <book>\Interioir Art <book>\Summary <book>\Epigraphs We could have <book>\Translations with a list of book versions and a glossary of translated terms for those versions. It could also link to teh appropriate Covvers for those translations. Edited August 12, 2023 by Treamayne SPAG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong she/her Posted August 12, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2023 (edited) I have included a test page for it on a user page, so people can see it and see what they think of the idea. https://coppermind.net/wiki/User:Firesong/Translations_page If it gets too long, well, the LotR wiki I am basing this idea on has the table be collapsible so it doesn't make the page too long unless you expand it. Edited August 12, 2023 by Firesong 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted August 13, 2023 Report Share Posted August 13, 2023 6 hours ago, Firesong said: I have included a test page for it on a user page, so people can see it and see what they think of the idea. https://coppermind.net/wiki/User:Firesong/Translations_page Here is a test page of the idea I was trying to describe. If there are enough languages, maybe divide the table by continent to make sure it is not too wide. My (long range) idea being that for each book there would be a translation page that would include the list of all languages into which the book has been published, a glossary of names (likely all cognates), and a linked list of keywords with their translation (as needed) Example: Spren would link to the spren page, the Spanish term would link to the spanish language spren page, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong she/her Posted August 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2023 Just now, Treamayne said: Here is a test page of the idea I was trying to describe. If there are enough languages, maybe divide the table by continent to make sure it is not too wide. My (long range) idea being that for each book there would be a translation page that would include the list of all languages into which the book has been published, a glossary of names (likely all cognates), and a linked list of keywords with their translation (as needed) Example: Spren would link to the spren page, the Spanish term would link to the spanish language spren page, etc. While it looks nice, that seems a bit more unwieldy than having the translation for terms be a bit more organized, it feels a bit odd to make it a list of unrelated terms put into one table. Another reason is, as you said, doing it like this quickly makes it way too wide. Just having 5 languages makes it take up the entire screen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted August 13, 2023 Report Share Posted August 13, 2023 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Firesong said: it feels a bit odd to make it a list of unrelated terms put into one table. Another reason is, as you said, doing it like this quickly makes it way too wide. Just having 5 languages makes it take up the entire screen. I agree - that was just a very quick cut/paste example - though they are not unrelated terms - they came from the category list for The Way of Kings (with all of the proper names removed) - then pared down to be an example. Original List: Spoiler Ardent Avramelon Axehind Axehound Backbreaker powder Bitterleaf Blackbane Bloodivy Bluebar Branzah Breachtree Brittel Chasmfiend Chasmfiends Chicken Chull Clema Cobwood Coracot Cordwood Cremling Crispmelon Crushkiller Crustspine Curnip Cussweed Dalewillow Darkeyes Darkwood Dawnchant Dawnshard Deadeye Dendrolith Diggerworm Dreamstorm Drop-dead Duluko Dysian Aimian Everstorm Fabrials Fathom tree Fingermoss Firemoss Fourleaf Frillbloom Fullnight Fused Gloomdancer Glyph Glyphward Grasper Greatshell Gulket Gumfrem Hasper Highspren Highstorm Honorspren I-nah Jella Khornak Knights Radiant Knobweed Kolgril Kurl Lancer Lanka Larkin Larkin Lavis Legger Lifelight Lighteyes Limafruit Listener Lobberbeast Longroot Lurg Lurnip Makam Mandra Markel Methi Mistspren Mossvine Narbin Oathgate Old Magic Order of Windrunners Order of Skybreakers Order of Dustbringers Order of Edgedancers Order of Truthwatchers Order of Lightweavers Order of Elsecallers Order of Willshapers Order of Stonewards Order of Bondsmiths Palafruit Peakspren Pilevine Plytree Prickletac Reacher Redwater Regal Relu-na Ridgebark Rockbud Rocklily Ryshadium Ryshadium Santhid Sarpenthyn Scalespray Scragglebark Sea hag Sellafruit Shalebark Shallowcrab Shanay-im Shardblades Shardplate Shum (plant) Siah Aimian Siah Aimian Simberry Singer Singer Skrip Skyeel Sleepless Sleepless Snarlbrush Songling Sphere Spikemane Spray Spren Staccato Stagm Stormlight Stumpweight Stumpy cort Surgebinding Tai-na Tallew Telm Tenem Thunderclast Towerlight Treb Truthberry Unmade Vengeance Vinebud Vivim Voidbinding Voidlight Voidspren Vorinism Warlight Whispermill Whitespine Winterwort Women's script Yu-nerig I made some last-minute changes (like Fused instead of Ardent) because alder24 included the later in his list. Quote While it looks nice, that seems a bit more unwieldy than having the translation for terms be a bit more organized, More organized? How can you get more organized than an itemized list that matches the category, links to relevant pages and includes the wikitable sort function so it can be sorted by whatever field the user needs? Sorry, I don't mean to be argumentative, but I am very confused by this feedback. (unless maybe it doesnt; display correctly for everybody else?). . . Edited August 13, 2023 by Treamayne SPAG 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong she/her Posted August 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2023 1 minute ago, Treamayne said: I agree - that was just a very quick cut/pastes example - though they are not unrelated terms - they came from the category list for The Way of Kings (with all of the proper names removed) - then pared down to be an example. Original List: Reveal hidden contents Ardent Avramelon Axehind Axehound Backbreaker powder Bitterleaf Blackbane Bloodivy Bluebar Branzah Breachtree Brittel Chasmfiend Chasmfiends Chicken Chull Clema Cobwood Coracot Cordwood Cremling Crispmelon Crushkiller Crustspine Curnip Cussweed Dalewillow Darkeyes Darkwood Dawnchant Dawnshard Deadeye Dendrolith Diggerworm Dreamstorm Drop-dead Duluko Dysian Aimian Everstorm Fabrials Fathom tree Fingermoss Firemoss Fourleaf Frillbloom Fullnight Fused Gloomdancer Glyph Glyphward Grasper Greatshell Gulket Gumfrem Hasper Highspren Highstorm Honorspren I-nah Jella Khornak Knights Radiant Knobweed Kolgril Kurl Lancer Lanka Larkin Larkin Lavis Legger Lifelight Lighteyes Limafruit Listener Lobberbeast Longroot Lurg Lurnip Makam Mandra Markel Methi Mistspren Mossvine Narbin Oathgate Old Magic Order of Windrunners Order of Skybreakers Order of Dustbringers Order of Edgedancers Order of Truthwatchers Order of Lightweavers Order of Elsecallers Order of Willshapers Order of Stonewards Order of Bondsmiths Palafruit Peakspren Pilevine Plytree Prickletac Reacher Redwater Regal Relu-na Ridgebark Rockbud Rocklily Ryshadium Ryshadium Santhid Sarpenthyn Scalespray Scragglebark Sea hag Sellafruit Shalebark Shallowcrab Shanay-im Shardblades Shardplate Shum (plant) Siah Aimian Siah Aimian Simberry Singer Singer Skrip Skyeel Sleepless Sleepless Snarlbrush Songling Sphere Spikemane Spray Spren Staccato Stagm Stormlight Stumpweight Stumpy cort Surgebinding Tai-na Tallew Telm Tenem Thunderclast Towerlight Treb Truthberry Unmade Vengeance Vinebud Vivim Voidbinding Voidlight Voidspren Vorinism Warlight Whispermill Whitespine Winterwort Women's script Yu-nerig I made some last-minute changes (liek Fused instead of Ardent) because alder24 included the later in his list. More organized? How can you get more organized than an itemized list that matches the category, links to relevant pages and includes the wikitable sort function so it can be sorted by whatever field the user needs? Sorry, I don't mean to be argumentative, but I am very confused by this feedback. (unless maybe it doesnt; display correctly for everybody else?). . . Because placing it all in one place makes one have to go far more out of their way to get the translation of one term, as they would have to find that page and then scroll down a big list of countless terms in order to find it. It just makes it more steps and it takes longer. When it would be far quicker to find one term if it is just placed as a list on the page. Like, you aren't looking for every translation, you are looking for the translation of a specific term. This would only help for like, translators that need quick access to every term at once, and not normal people that are just like "I wonder what the translations for Dustbringer" are. I am just not a fan of the "lets bunch everything together in one place" type of approach to this. It would get especially confusing as you seem to want to make a separate list for each book, which would only increase the difficulty in finding what you want. It all just seems to be sacrificing accessibility and efficiency for the sake of putting it all in one place. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted August 13, 2023 Report Share Posted August 13, 2023 12 minutes ago, Firesong said: Because placing it all in one place makes one have to go far more out of their way to get the translation of one term, as they would have to find that page and then scroll down a big list of countless terms in order to find it. It just makes it more steps and it takes longer. When it would be far quicker to find one term if it is just placed as a list on the page. Like, you aren't looking for every translation, you are looking for the translation of a specific term. This would only help for like, translators that need quick access to every term at once, and not normal people that are just like "I wonder what the translations for Dustbringer" are. I am just not a fan of the "lets bunch everything together in one place" type of approach to this. It would get especially confusing as you seem to want to make a separate list for each book, which would only increase the difficulty in finding what you want. It all just seems to be sacrificing accessibility and efficiency for the sake of putting it all in one place. OIC, your idea makes more sense now. It's not so much what I want, so much as I was tryig to help brainstorm possible ideas. I love the Categories pages, and while I doubt I am the only one; I also recognize that not everbody uses them. To me, it's far easier to see a "glossary of <language> terms for Roshar than to go term by term (oh, that's Windrunners? WHat's Dustbringer? <click link>, okay how about edgedances? <click link>, etc.) Honestly though, why not both? If the work has already done to find the terms (by stalwart translators), then an "index" translation of something like SA Categories would have all terms for a single related series in one spot - cross linked by each language into which that series has been translated - and - on given term's pages that term's tranlations can be found in a translation subheading. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong she/her Posted August 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2023 4 minutes ago, Treamayne said: OIC, your idea makes more sense now. It's not so much what I want, so much as I was tryig to help brainstorm possible ideas. I love the Categories pages, and while I doubt I am the only one; I also recognize that not everbody uses them. To me, it's far easier to see a "glossary of <language> terms for Roshar than to go term by term (oh, that's Windrunners? WHat's Dustbringer? <click link>, okay how about edgedances? <click link>, etc.) Honestly though, why not both? If the work has already done to find the terms (by stalwart translators), then an "index" translation of something like SA Categories would have all terms for a single related series in one spot - cross linked by each language into which that series has been translated - and - on given term's pages that term's tranlations can be found in a translation subheading. Hmm... that would make sense to have both. I just feel that the big category page shouldn't be the only way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted August 13, 2023 Report Share Posted August 13, 2023 1 minute ago, Firesong said: Hmm... that would make sense to have both. I just feel that the big category page shouldn't be the only way. Concur. I just misunderstood what you were trying to describe at first. Though, I would say that your example probably needs a third column (alder24's example for polish Stormlight was a literal translation "Storm Light," but if your example page were one of the Orders (e.g. Windrunners then it would be: Polski | Wiatrowi | People of the wind)) since part of the enjoyment is seeing how the translation may adjust meaning/implication. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starwatcher Posted August 13, 2023 Report Share Posted August 13, 2023 A couple of comments: On 8/11/2023 at 1:39 PM, Firesong said: If not, I at least think it is a good idea to do it for translations of book titles, due to how they sometimes have completely different titles in different languages. Especially German and Japanese versions. There actually was a conversation about international book titles specifically about a month ago: Book non english releases; I'm not sure what @T.rue's plans for working on that are at the moment. Someone also asked about collecting these translations more broadly on Discord back in late April (more specifically, the suggestion was for the sort of format Firesong is talking about, where, e.g., the Shard page would list all the different translations of that term); we couldn't really settle on a specific approach that we liked (basically, collapsible elements do not currently work on mobile and there were dueling concerns that either we don't end up with a lot of actual entries and it's best to just keep the info in Trivia or maybe a new section at the bottom of the page or we do get a lot of entries and we maybe decide to split it off to a subpage). Ultimately, we agreed it could just go in the Trivia section for now and created an {{interlang}} template to keep track of things, provide some very basic formatting for now, and make it easier to expand on the formatting in the future. No one ever actually started working on it, but, if you wanted to start putting this in Trivia sections (probably as an indented list?), that should be fine; once we have more of a sense of the scale we can revisit formatting. As a general note, indices tend to take a lot of work to keep up-to-date, so I'm not sure how much support there would be for having two separate versions (unless we could find a way to sync one from the other) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong she/her Posted August 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2023 Not fully related, but I do have a question due to the lack of a translation of one term. But it would require SA5 Prologue spoilers for context: Spoiler So, the SA5 prologue basically confirmed Shallan's mother is Chana. When the book comes out (if it is correct, of course), would it be okay to refer to her and Dalinar's relationship as that of sympatheroi? With her as his sympathera? It could also work to describe Lin. It is a greek word, but it perfectly describes the relationship, as it means "one's child's spouse's parent", which is a bit cumbersome to communicate in English. So I just wanted to see if the use of this word is fine due to how it perfectly describes it. I don't think it is too big a deal, but I did want to at least ask first. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starwatcher Posted August 14, 2023 Report Share Posted August 14, 2023 Spoiler I think it'd be okay to use that word; whether we should use it without explaining that it means "one's child-in-law's parent" (not sure if that's what you're asking?) is a harder question, I think. If we don't explain, it'd be good to at least have a link to some sort of English-language reliable source, but I don't know what that would be. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos he/him Posted August 14, 2023 Report Share Posted August 14, 2023 18 hours ago, Firesong said: Not fully related, but I do have a question due to the lack of a translation of one term. But it would require SA5 Prologue spoilers for context: Reveal hidden contents So, the SA5 prologue basically confirmed Shallan's mother is Chana. When the book comes out (if it is correct, of course), would it be okay to refer to her and Dalinar's relationship as that of sympatheroi? With her as his sympathera? It could also work to describe Lin. It is a greek word, but it perfectly describes the relationship, as it means "one's child's spouse's parent", which is a bit cumbersome to communicate in English. So I just wanted to see if the use of this word is fine due to how it perfectly describes it. I don't think it is too big a deal, but I did want to at least ask first. I'm a bit confused what the relevance of this is to the wiki? Where would this be? I'm a bit confused. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong she/her Posted August 14, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2023 Just now, Chaos said: I'm a bit confused what the relevance of this is to the wiki? Where would this be? I'm a bit confused. Just listing family relationships, I feel it is relevant for a few familial relationships. Is what I was thinking. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos he/him Posted August 14, 2023 Report Share Posted August 14, 2023 1 hour ago, Firesong said: Just listing family relationships, I feel it is relevant for a few familial relationships. Is what I was thinking. I think the part that is confusing me is, are we making a list of translations of article titles? That was my impression of what you were saying, so I'm not really sure how this question relates to that. Are you talking about a general Greek translation? I'm just very confused where this would go, so I don't really understand how it's coming up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong she/her Posted August 14, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2023 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Chaos said: I think the part that is confusing me is, are we making a list of translations of article titles? That was my impression of what you were saying, so I'm not really sure how this question relates to that. Are you talking about a general Greek translation? I'm just very confused where this would go, so I don't really understand how it's coming up. Because I thought of this separately, and it had to do with different languages, and I didn't want to make an entirely new forum just for this one topic that would have just been a quick Boolean yes or no answer. I felt it was to small a thing to make an entirely new thread about. On the main topic of the thread, yeah, it was about translations of article titles in the articles themselves. Like a list of what different languages translate Stormlight as. Edited August 14, 2023 by Firesong 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos he/him Posted August 14, 2023 Report Share Posted August 14, 2023 I see. I hope you can see why I am confused. I have no expertise with the other question so I cannot say anything with any degree of confidence. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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