Are the nightmares cognitive shadows?

[Stormlightsong]

The nightmares are, presumably, spirits of the dead tied to the cognitive and physical realm. But what are they tied with?

We know from the scholars and hoid that the machine harvested the spirits of the dead before summoning any spirits. Usually you need a splinter to make a cognitive shadow but the machine didn’t have any splinters at first so how did it sustain the dead’s spirits?

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, Stormlightsong said:

The nightmares are, presumably, spirits of the dead tied to the cognitive and physical realm. But what are they tied with?

We know from the scholars and hoid that the machine harvested the spirits of the dead before summoning any spirits.

From the Coppermind:

Spoiler

Nightmares are a type of Cognitive Shadow native to Komashi which emerge from the shroud to feed on the minds of people while they sleep. They are formed by the souls of dead Komashi people killed by the father machine, and made into its servants.

Quote

Usually you need a splinter to make a cognitive shadow but the machine didn’t have any splinters at first so how did it sustain the dead’s spirits?

From what source do you get that? Cognitive Shadows do not necessaily require a Splinter (that's more of a Returned thing with Divine Breath) - you just need enough investiture to imprint (e.g. Kelsier did not bond a splinter - just touching the investiture at the well was enough to keep him "Preserved"). On Torio, there was so much investiture released when Father Machine activated that many souls were trapped in the Shroud. Possibly similar to the process that makes Threnodite Shades.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Stormlightsong]

Thanks for the info. I guess my main question is how did it get enough power to create cognitive shadows if it’s still didn’t have enough power to summon spirits?

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Stormlightsong said:

Thanks for the info. I guess my main question is how did it get enough power to create cognitive shadows if it’s still didn’t have enough power to summon spirits?

My inderstanding is not that it "had enough power to create cognitive shadows;" - rather - it needed power to start operations and wiped the whole population at once to get access to investiture. Like Nightblood leaking smoke because he is super-saturated, the side effect of releasing all of that investiture at once without a Command to control the outcome just resulted in the shroud. The result of the shroud's formation at the moment when everybody died was that the loose investiture saturated thier cognitive aspects before they could move to the Beyond. Since the Shroud was Connected to the Father Machine, and the people were Connected to the Shroud - Father Machine found that it could exert some measure of control over the form(s) those trapped souls were allowed to take (and when Father Machine's control weakened, they made their own Nightmare bodies and went Hunting for their "true" form - humanity).

Compare to how Inquisitors regained some measure of control when Ruin's attention was elsewhere or when their emotions were strong enough to "blot out" his control.

Hope that helps.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

18 hours ago, Stormlightsong said:

The nightmares are, presumably, spirits of the dead tied to the cognitive and physical realm. But what are they tied with?

We know from the scholars and hoid that the machine harvested the spirits of the dead before summoning any spirits. Usually you need a splinter to make a cognitive shadow but the machine didn’t have any splinters at first so how did it sustain the dead’s spirits?

11 hours ago, Stormlightsong said:

Thanks for the info. I guess my main question is how did it get enough power to create cognitive shadows if it’s still didn’t have enough power to summon spirits?

I think the answer to why they are Cognitive Shadow is a bit technical. To add to Treamayne's response, for a CS to exist they need to be anchored to all realms. And this connection was granted by the Father Machine. As soon as it was destroyed, this connection was severed and all CS quickly faded into the Beyond. 

Because each Nightmare had to feed 13 times or so to become really dangerous, I think that normal, unfed Nightmares were relatively low invested, possibly even below Returned. Only the machine kept them as CS.

RoW ch 92 epigraph:

Spoiler

Quote

"The bond is what keeps us alive. You sever that, and we will slowly decompose into ordinary souls—with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms. Capture one of us with your knives, and you won’t be left with a spren in a jar, foolish ones. You’ll be left with a being that eventually fades away into the Beyond."

 

 

[Treamayne]

18 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 for a CS to exist they need to be anchored to all realms.

Thanks for the reference, though I will note that the RoW Epigraph specifically uses "Or" because a CS needs a connection to either Physical or Spiritual (but can be both). Mistborn, Threnody Spoilers:

Spoiler

See Secret History - where Kelsier specifically has no "string" to the Physical. 

So, a Cognitive Shadow is an invested Cognitive Aspect that maintains at least one more connection to the Spiritual or Physical - but may be tied to all three realms. Which is likely the problem with Nightmares and Shades, as they have their link to the physical (and can partially manifest - becoming more physcial in certain situations/conditions) but lack (or damaged) a valid connection back to their original Spiritweb. . .  at least that's my current theory.

 

[alder24]

40 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Thanks for the reference, though I will note that the RoW Epigraph specifically uses "Or" because a CS needs a connection to either Physical or Spiritual (but can be both). Mistborn, Threnody Spoilers:

  Hide contents

See Secret History - where Kelsier specifically has no "string" to the Physical. 

So, a Cognitive Shadow is an invested Cognitive Aspect that maintains at least one more connection to the Spiritual or Physical - but may be tied to all three realms. Which is likely the problem with Nightmares and Shades, as they have their link to the physical (and can partially manifest - becoming more physcial in certain situations/conditions) but lack (or damaged) a valid connection back to their original Spiritweb. . .  at least that's my current theory.

 

Right, I've misread it. I agree with that theory, but don't have rep to give you anymore. I dislike this rep limit so much! Every time I read a book that was already out for a few months in English I have dozens of posts to give rep to but can give only 20 per day! It runs out so fast.

[Treamayne]

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Right, I've misread it. I agree with that theory, but don't have rep to give you anymore. I dislike this rep limit so much! Every time I read a book that was already out for a few months in English I have dozens of posts to give rep to but can give only 20 per day! It runs out so fast.

Precisely please see my comments on this thread:

Spoiler

I've noticed the main time I have hit the rep limit is SP release weeks. So many new posts all in a day or three (or more if my reading was delayed and I am trying to catch up on the spoiler discussions that went on during release week).

Probably difficult-to-impossible to implement, but I would love to see a running total system where is it 20/day - and on any day that you use less than 10, your total is now +1. That builds until <new max> or the first time you use them all (which resets to max=20) - that way we could "bank" some extra rep before a release (or other anticipatory event) without skewing the daily factor of everybody having "all the rep" to give. So, for example, ten days of < 10/day would yield one day of 30 max.