Literal Identity Theft

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

Just something that struck me while I was designing a magic system for my Mercy world on the Combined Shard names thread. let's say there is an Aluminum Ferring on Nalthis that has a lot of Breaths, called Joe Breath-Haver. If Joe so chooses, he can store away his Identity and then Awaken something, so that anyone who knows can take the Breaths from the Awakened Construct.

There exists also on Nalthis a Friend of Joe's, called Bob Stealsalot. Bob is very Realmatically knowledgeable and knows what Joe is doing. So Bob, who would like some Breaths, asks Joe to prove that he can create Awakened Constructs in a way so anyone can retrieve the Breaths. Joe obliges, but before he can Awaken anything, Bob slaps him in the face and says "Your Breath to mine". Since Joe's Breaths are currently Identitiless, they obey Bob's Command and all go to him. Bob then runs away cackling, having just committed literal Identity theft.

Is there anything stopping this from actually happening?

[Quantus he/him]

I dont think you need to go to that level of cross-magic effort with Breaths.  They are built to change Identity with the Commands already (it happens when they are passed, or when Lifeless are made, etc).  So Joe should be able to choose to store them in an Identity-less state that anyone could recover, as part of the Intent of the Storage Command. 

But separately, we have been told that you become Vulnerable to all kinds of things while you blank Identity. The question is whether blanking your own "active" identity via Feruchemy would be enough to Strip the Breaths Investing you of the Identity Encoding that keys them to you while they are elsewhere.  Because while they are still in Joe, they are investing his physical body and granting Heightenings and whatnot, they arent in a static storage state as they are in an object.  

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

I dont think you need to go to that level of cross-magic effort with Breaths.  They are built to change Identity with the Commands already (it happens when they are passed, or when Lifeless are made, etc).  So Joe should be able to choose to store them in an Identity-less state that anyone could recover, as part of the Intent of the Storage Command.

I suppose that's possible, but the only confirmed way we know that can happen is through Identity manipulation.

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But separately, we have been told that you become Vulnerable to all kinds of things while you blank Identity. The question is whether blanking your own "active" identity via Feruchemy would be enough to Strip the Breaths Investing you of the Identity Encoding that keys them to you while they are elsewhere.  Because while they are still in Joe, they are investing his physical body and granting Heightenings and whatnot, they arent in a static storage state as they are in an object.  

Stripping away your Identity is that dangerous precisely because they make every aspect of you lack that defense. Your physical body, your Spiritual Aspect, they all lose that Identity. Feruchemy often deals with turning physical things about you into Investiture and back, and we've already seen that lacking Identity can make those accessible to others. I kind of see it as the Spiritual Aspect's version of antigens. Identity keeps the soul and your Investiture separate from everything else and safeguards it from outside interference, such as locking Metalminds to other Feruchemists, preventing your Breaths from being taken by somebody else, possibly keeping a record of your self-perception and your ideal form, keeping track of what you, the person, the personality, the consciousness in your mind, are at any given moment (including what your history is, this is the stuff that rejects Soulstamps), etc. That's why it's dangerous to strip it all away. Yes, you could make cool things like Unkeyed Metalminds or Unkeyed ACs, but it could also mean that someone who knows what they're doing could steal your Breaths, or Soulstamp you in a much more effective, maybe permanent way. Identity probably also helps in part to make you resistant to being Soulcasted, and (this one is a bit more far-fetched) maybe even to Emotional Allomancy, all of which you would also become susceptible too.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[therunner he/him]

11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

There exists also on Nalthis a Friend of Joe's, called Bob Stealsalot. Bob is very Realmatically knowledgeable and knows what Joe is doing. So Bob, who would like some Breaths, asks Joe to prove that he can create Awakened Constructs in a way so anyone can retrieve the Breaths. Joe obliges, but before he can Awaken anything, Bob slaps him in the face and says "Your Breath to mine". Since Joe's Breaths are currently Identitiless, they obey Bob's Command and all go to him. Bob then runs away cackling, having just committed literal Identity theft.

Is there anything stopping this from actually happening?

I think that would not work for the simple reason that the Breaths are still attached to Joe, and Bob has no way to manipulate any aspect of Joe. Physical contact would not make Bob part of Joe, even when Joe is identity-less.

Sure Joe is Identity less, but he is not awakened construct he is holding the Breaths.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

19 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think that would not work for the simple reason that the Breaths are still attached to Joe, and Bob has no way to manipulate any aspect of Joe. Physical contact would not make Bob part of Joe, even when Joe is identity-less.

Sure Joe is Identity less, but he is not awakened construct he is holding the Breaths.

I don't think that's necessary. The attachment is weak enough that the Awakeners Intent and Command can make the Breaths defy the attachment and leave. Breaths can be Commanded, Joe's Breaths lack Identity and so have no reason not to obey the Commands of others, so you could touch Joe and retrieve his Breaths just like you could take any Identitiless Breaths.

I'd argue that strength converted from literally someone's actual body would be more a part of them than Breaths (which are made to be easily given or taken), yet you can easily use someone else's strength if their Pewtermind is Unkeyed, so it follows that you should be able to take someone's Breath too, if it's all unkeyed and you have the right Intent and Command.

[therunner he/him]

2 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I don't think that's necessary. The attachment is weak enough that the Awakeners Intent and Command can make the Breaths defy the attachment and leave. Breaths can be Commanded, Joe's Breaths lack Identity and so have no reason not to obey the Commands of others, so you could touch Joe and retrieve his Breaths just like you could take any Identitiless Breaths.

Do the Breaths lack Identity? While attached to Joe, they are sufficiently separated that e.g. Odium could attack Hoid's Breaths despite being prohibited from harming Hoid himself.
That suggests that they are sufficiently separated that they don't count as part of the holder, and hence Feruchemy would not affect them.

They would still be 'Joe's' Breaths, just stuck in a body of someone who is nearly no-one. If he then used them to Awaken something, they would become re-keyed as usual. He could possibly use them since 1) You cannot store 100% of any attribute, so some Identity remains. 2) He has remaining Connection to those Breaths (even dying and Returning allows you to recall and use your previous Breaths).

Additionally, again you can retrieve Breathes from awakened non-sentient objects, and Awakeners holding Breathes are not that. I suspect there would be a difference. Even recalling Breaths from Lifeless is not possible.

2 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I'd argue that strength converted from literally someone's actual body would be more a part of them than Breaths (which are made to be easily given or taken), yet you can easily use someone else's strength if their Pewtermind is Unkeyed, so it follows that you should be able to take someone's Breath too, if it's all unkeyed and you have the right Intent and Command.

I don't agree. Strength is part of your spiritweb, Breaths are not. Hence there is a difference, and I don't think you can get unkeyed Breaths like this.

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by therunner

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

43 minutes ago, therunner said:

Do the Breaths lack Identity? While attached to Joe, they are sufficiently separated that e.g. Odium could attack Hoid's Breaths despite being prohibited from harming Hoid himself.
That suggests that they are sufficiently separated that they don't count as part of the holder, and hence Feruchemy would not affect them.

It depends on what the wording of the contract between them was. Hoid isn't harmed in any way by the loss of his Breaths, so maybe TOdium just found a loophole. It's insufficient knowledge to be able to confidently say that Breaths are that far separated from the holder.

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43 minutes ago, therunner said:

They would still be 'Joe's' Breaths, just stuck in a body of someone who is nearly no-one. If he then used them to Awaken something, they would become re-keyed as usual. He could possibly use them since 1) You cannot store 100% of any attribute, so some Identity remains. 2) He has remaining Connection to those Breaths (even dying and Returning allows you to recall and use your previous Breaths).

They wouldn't be re-keyed through normal Awakening, the Breaths remain keyed to the original holder. We know that they can be taken by anyone from the AC, so they must be Identitiless even while in the person. I think they must count enough as part of them for their Identity to be drained from the Breaths. As for not being able to store 100% of your Identity, It hasn't been confirmed. You can't store all of some things like weight (which has been confirmed) and others like strength because it would straight up kill you, but blanking Identity seems like one that you could safely get rid of completely for a while. Connection isn't confirmed to be needed to Command the Breaths at all, and the Returned keep their Identity.

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Additionally, again you can retrieve Breathes from awakened non-sentient objects, and Awakeners holding Breathes are not that. I suspect there would be a difference. Even recalling Breaths from Lifeless is not possible.

You can't take a Breath away from a Lifeless, but you can plainly detach them from someone living, so I think that's the deciding factor that makes a difference here.

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I don't agree. Strength is part of your spiritweb, Breaths are not. Hence there is a difference, and I don't think you can get unkeyed Breaths like this.

They're still attached to your soul, and they get unkeyed once you store Identity, so I think you could. You might to check out this thread:

 

[alder24]

19 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Just something that struck me while I was designing a magic system for my Mercy world on the Combined Shard names thread. let's say there is an Aluminum Ferring on Nalthis that has a lot of Breaths, called Joe Breath-Haver. If Joe so chooses, he can store away his Identity and then Awaken something, so that anyone who knows can take the Breaths from the Awakened Construct.

There exists also on Nalthis a Friend of Joe's, called Bob Stealsalot. Bob is very Realmatically knowledgeable and knows what Joe is doing. So Bob, who would like some Breaths, asks Joe to prove that he can create Awakened Constructs in a way so anyone can retrieve the Breaths. Joe obliges, but before he can Awaken anything, Bob slaps him in the face and says "Your Breath to mine". Since Joe's Breaths are currently Identitiless, they obey Bob's Command and all go to him. Bob then runs away cackling, having just committed literal Identity theft.

Is there anything stopping this from actually happening?

I really have to think a lot to find a reason why this won't be possible. Breaths in objects are likely in a static investiture state, in a person that's innate investiture, part of their soul. While they aren't keyed they are still part of them, and I think only the other part of the soul can command them like that. I mean Intent needs to come from the person holding those Breaths - it's the rule of Awakening, you can't force Breaths out of somebody, they have to be given to you.

Now if both Bob and Joe were blanked, this might allow Bob to steal Joe's Breaths. Being blanked and using blanked investiture is easier. Might, I don't know. You make my brain hurt. 

Another option is that when Joe is blanked, this might change into a Command breaking situation, where Bob has to Break command of Joe's Breaths to command them to become his. But that would only be because they are in a person, not in an object.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You make my brain hurt. 

Revenge >:)

What you're saying makes sense. It would be way easier if both were blanked. I don't know about the Command-Breaking part, unless you're breaking the "Your Breath to Mine/ My (not Joe) life to yours, my Breath become yours" Command that tied the breath to them. I don't think that'd be necessary. You don't have to break that Command to Awaken something, and you don't have to break the Command you give to an AC to retrieve the Breaths. They allow for Commands of their owner to overrule whatever else they're currently doing. And once they aren't keyed to anyone, they can be Commanded by everyone, including a "Your Breath to mine" Command from someone else.

 

[alder24]

23 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Revenge >:)

What you're saying makes sense. It would be way easier if both were blanked. I don't know about the Command-Breaking part, unless you're breaking the "Your Breath to Mine/ My (not Joe) life to yours, my Breath become yours" Command that tied the breath to them. I don't think that'd be necessary. You don't have to break that Command to Awaken something, and you don't have to break the Command you give to an AC to retrieve the Breaths. They allow for Commands of their owner to overrule whatever else they're currently doing. And once they aren't keyed to anyone, they can be Commanded by everyone, including a "Your Breath to mine" Command from someone else.

I wasn't thinking of literally breaking "your Breath to mine" command or the other, rather that the mechanism of taking control over Joe's unkeyed Breaths might be similar to command breaking, just like Unmaking is similar to it. Therefore being skillful in command breaking would be required.