Hoid can't hurt people right??

[justice magician]

So recently I read Misborn Secret History, and the scene with Hoid and Kelsier at the Well of Ascension confused me. I had read on the Coppermind and here on the Shard that Hoid can't hurt people (due to some kind of "curse" thing?) so it surprised me when he fighting Kelsier. 

Does it not count because he did not draw blood? (I recall it was only a few punches)

Does the fact that he was in the cognitive realm change what he can and can't do?

Is this before the "no hurting people rule" came into affect timeline wise?

[Dunkum]

It's probably due to the fact that Kelsier is a Cognitive Shadow at the time, and not really alive. but you'll note that Hoid comments something to the effect that he is surprised he can actually punch Kelsier in that scene

[alder24]

20 minutes ago, Justice_Magician said:

So recently I read Misborn Secret History, and the scene with Hoid and Kelsier at the Well of Ascension confused me. I had read on the Coppermind and here on the Shard that Hoid can't hurt people (due to some kind of "curse" thing?) so it surprised me when he fighting Kelsier. 

Does it not count because he did not draw blood? (I recall it was only a few punches)

Does the fact that he was in the cognitive realm change what he can and can't do?

Is this before the "no hurting people rule" came into affect timeline wise?

Perception and the fact that Kelsier was dead, a mind separated from his body. He shouldn't have felt any pain, but his mind was telling him to feel it (which Hoid told him right after their fight). Hoid knew about this and he caused no real harm as Kelsier was already dead. Hoid also said that he didn't intend to cause any real harm to his soul. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Hoid's ability to hurt Kelsier, is that due to his perceptions and beliefs or those of an external entity?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to be a bit of both but more his perceptions and beliefs. This is how a lot of things work in the Cosmere, particularly if you're where they were.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

Spoiler

tututitlookslikerain

and the reason he (even still) cannot physically harm people

This point still confuses me. He quite handily puts Kelsier on his rear in The Well.

So he can harm someone if he's provoked? Or is it because he knows that regardless of what he does to Kelsier it won't actually harm him?

And a lot of "harm" is in the mind. Even without a corporeal body, it would still register as pain, thus harm?

And wouldn't it still be considered physical harm, if Hoid was there physically? Applying physical harm?

Brandon Sanderson

If you re-read that scene, Hoid himself is shocked he's able to do what he does there. Let's just say he himself doesn't quite understand the issue as much as he once assumed.

ice_royale

Can we assume he cannot harm a LIVING being, but Kelsier is at that point not a living being?

Brandon Sanderson

This is the conclusion Hoid came to, so it's a pretty solid assumption.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 9, 2020)

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by alder24

[Firesong]

We don't fully understand the exact rules of his curse (we mostly know larger ideas of "don't cause harm and don't eat meat", and the way it would work in specific circumstances. But a lot of it is still not exactly understood), but the main theory, which is the most supported, is just the fact that what he was doing wouldn't cause any actual harm to Kelsier, and he had no intention of causing harm, thus it didn't activate his curse. This is the one that I believe, as you could say he wasn't violating it as he wasn't really causing harm, the fact Kelsier felt pain more so came down to the fact he thought that he should, as he is used to a physical body that experiences pain normally. 

TLDR, he wasn't causing harm and had no intention to, therefore it let him. 

We will definitely be learning more as the cosmere goes on, and I believe it would come very soon. 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Firesong

[Quantus]

Corollary Questions:

As Cognitive Entities, can he harm a Spren?  Via Shardblade Attack?  Via Betraying his Ideals/Trruths?

Was this allowed because happened to a CS it qualified as a Cognitive Attack, equivalent to Emotional Allomancy?  Can he Snap somebody with extreme emotional allomancy?  Did it only work because they were in the Cognitive Realm, or can he punch any CS? Can he Punch a Lifeless?

Edited July 17, 2023 by Quantus

[Firesong]

25 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Corollary Questions:

As Cognitive Entities, can he harm a Spren?  Via Shardblade Attack?  Via Betraying his Ideals/Trruths?

Was this allowed because happened to a CS it qualified as a Cognitive Attack, equivalent to Emotional Allomancy?  Can he Snap somebody with extreme emotional allomancy?  Did it only work because they were in the Cognitive Realm, or can he punch any CS? Can he Punch a Lifeless?

As I said, we don't really know how far it extends. But the reason he could hurt Kelsier likely came down to it not actually being harm, Kelsier wasn't actually being hurt. His Cognitive Aspect was just responding with pain as it thought that that was what it was supposed to do. 

I am excited to learn more over time about all the exact rules of his curse. 

He likely can torment with emotional allomancy though, as he is allowed to hurt people emotionally. As you can see in his many appearances and in WoBs.  

Edited July 17, 2023 by Firesong

[alder24]

28 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Corollary Questions:

As Cognitive Entities, can he harm a Spren?  Via Shardblade Attack?  Via Betraying his Ideals/Trruths?

I think it's unlikely. Spren can still be hurt. Breaking oaths and deadeyeing his spren is the most extreme form of it, but just using a Shardblade to stab a spren from a PR (like Kal did) would likely be forbidden to him because it hurts both that spren and his Nahel spren too. Stormfather was hurt by Dalinar in OB too, Notum in RoW. 

31 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Was this allowed because happened to a CS it qualified as a Cognitive Attack, equivalent to Emotional Allomancy? 

This can be a likely explanation.

31 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Can he Snap somebody with extreme emotional allomancy?

Snapping creates cracks in a soul, he can't hurt a soul (or at least implies that in SH when he said to Kel that he didn't intend to hurt his soul), so he would be unable to snap via emotional Allomancy.

33 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Can he Punch a Lifeless?

Good question. Lifeless has a body, a soul made out of Breaths and a limited, but still has a self-aware mind. I don't think so,

Different question, can he punch Kandra who turned off their sensors of pain? I think it might be possible if he didn't punch hard enough to cause tissue damage, and if he knows about that kandra can't feel pain for now.

[Quantus]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Different question, can he punch Kandra who turned off their sensors of pain? I think it might be possible if he didn't punch hard enough to cause tissue damage, and if he knows about that kandra can't feel pain for now.

Probably.  At some point consent might matter too, since perception of pleasure vs pain can be pretty subjective.  But now we're on the road to asking what kinks are available to him, which is going to be weird ground...

[Firesong]

14 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Probably.  At some point consent might matter too, since perception of pleasure vs pain can be pretty subjective.  But now we're on the road to asking what kinks are available to him, which is going to be weird ground...

Brandon said yes, basically. 

Quote

Steven Peterson

Is Hoid's restriction on not hurting someone living absolute? Could he cause pain for pleasure situations?

Brandon Sanderson

It is not absolute; you've seen at least one loophole. The thing about is, this is Dawnshard-derived, and weird things happen with the Dawnshards.

 

[justice magician]

I completely forgot about Kelsier not having a physical body, thus not actually getting hurt.

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

Edited July 17, 2023 by Justice_Magician