The nature of Invested beings

[KnightoftheCosmere]

I was wondering would Mistborns and Radiants be considered to be highly Invested naturally? My interpretation is that they are not naturally Invested like the Returned but instead used lots of Investiture.  However, in Mistborn: Secret History Kelsier is able to stay in the cognitive realm longer becuase he was invested. This doesn't make sense to be because he wasn't actually Invested, he just used Investiture from the metals when he burned them.

[alder24]

48 minutes ago, KnightoftheCosmere said:

I was wondering would Mistborns and Radiants be considered to be highly Invested naturally? My interpretation is that they are not naturally Invested like the Returned but instead used lots of Investiture.  However, in Mistborn: Secret History Kelsier is able to stay in the cognitive realm longer becuase he was invested. This doesn't make sense to be because he wasn't actually Invested, he just used Investiture from the metals when he burned them.

Welcome to the Shard!

There are different levels and types of investment. Cognitive Shadows like Returned or Heralds are relatively high invested beings, Spren are even more invested. Normal people are low invested (compared to living, invested beings) but depending from where they are, some are slightly more or less invested - like people from Nalthis are more invested (because they have Breaths) than people from Scadrial, but Scadrian are more invested than Rosharan (because Scadrians has Preservation's fragment in them), but Rosharan are more invested than somebody from the First of the Sun (because the First of the Sun has no Shards while Roshar has 3) - what I'm describing is so called innate investiture, the additional part of the soul which is because of Shard's investment like Breaths, Preservation's fragment etc. 

Another important factor is all Connections that people have. For normal people it's relatively not much investiture (a soul is basically a web of Connections, Identity and investiture), but for somebody like a Mistborn, they have a very strong Connection to Preservation, which invests their soul more. That's why Kelsier was able to stay in CR for so long, because as a Mistbron he has this strong Connection to Preservation giving him powers and thus his soul is more invested than regular Scadrian soul. Elend, who became a Mistborn by burning Lerasium, had even stronger Connection to Preservation than Kelsier, and he was able to stay longer, if he wanted - he still would fade, unlike Vin (because she touched the power of Preservation directly and became a Sliver, she could stay forever).

Surgebinders like Radiants are similarly invested to Mistborn, as they have this strong bond to their spren, they would stay longer in CS as well, because of that bond.

Then there is additional investiture which also counts, like you suggested - if you die why having a lot of Breaths or having a lot of Stormlight, or burning metals as a Mistborn (keep in mind, a Mistborn burning metals provides low amounts of investiture, far lower than Stormlight or Breaths) you were more invested, therefore you will last a bit longer in CR. Spikes also count. Each spike is a fragment of a soul pinned into your soul, the more you have, the more invested you are, the longer you stay in CR - but if a part of your soul get stolen from you by a spike, you will fade quicker, as part of your investiture was taken away from you. 

Cognitive Shadows like Returned, Fused, Heralds or now Kelsier, are just on another level all together. They are so invested that they can fully resist the urge to fade into the Beyond. That's because their soul got overflown with Investiture when they've died - like Returned were given the Divine Breath, or Kelsier was invested by Preservation in the Well. They're different because of what happened after their death, but normally people don't experience such things.

Well I wrote a lot here. To summarize, Cognitive Shadows are far more invested than Surgebinders or Metalborns, but they are more invested than regular people because of their strong Connection granting them those powers. If they were holding a lot of investiture when they died, they would be able to stay longer before fading into the Beyond - what you said is true, but there is simply more to it.

WoBs on which I based this response:

Spoiler

Questioner

On all the cosmere worlds, it seem as if-- do all the humans have what you call innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's see...

*thinks*

I believe that they all do. I don't think that you've seen anyone without innate Investiture yet.

Questioner

Because when they don't have Breath anymore, they would get Drabs, and those don't have innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

They don't have innate Investiture. And on Scadrial they have the pieces of Ruin and Preservation in them. And they do have it on Roshar.

Questioner

Which Shard is that?

Brandon Sanderson

You'll have to read and find out. *gives card*

So yes, I don't think you've seen any worlds where they don't.

Words of Radiance San Francisco signing (March 6, 2014)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

In the last panel we talked a lot about people from different planets using magic systems on other planets, one of the things I've been thinking about, we've been thinking about, talking about Breath, and people being born with Breath, is that something specific to Nalthis or do, technically, other people on other planets have a Breath as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question and that is a Nalthian thing. Now, everyone in the cosmere to an extent has Investiture, the Nalthian Breath is part what everyone has and then a little extra, plus the ability to share it around. So a person who gives up their Breath on Nalthis is actually going below what a normal person has. But a normal person on Nalthis has more than somebody-- So if you were for instance to pick a world like Sixth of the Dusk, where there's not a Shard in residence, and you compared them to a Nalthian, Nalthian has an Investiture advantage over them. When they've given up their Breath, they have an Investiture disadvantage.

Bystander

So we're not Drabs?

Brandon Sanderson

So we're not Drabs. That's exactly it. We're not Drabs.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Blightsong

Would it be harder for Jasnah to Soulcast a Knight Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Would it be harder for her to Soulcast a Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Investiture resists Investiture. It's harder for her to even Soulcast a person than a rock, right?

Questioner

Is a Mistborn Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

The Mistborn, while they're burning the metal. They are not specifically Invested when they are not burning. When the Investiture becomes active, then yes. Before, no.

Blightsong

So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was Invested, but because he had the potential to use Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Over time using the magic will Invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either [he cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought] so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the Mistborn are as Invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority, bulk, of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the Spiritweb. Investing the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the Spiritual Realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them is harder.

Questioner

Would they be harder with more Stormlight or metals burning?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing Shardplate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yeah. The problem is like, Invested is the wrong term for that, their Spiritweb is connected in different ways.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Trae Cooper (paraphrased)

Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question.

1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture.

2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul.

This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm.

3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades.

Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate.

DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012)

 

Spoiler

Questioner (on behalf of Yata)

When someone is spiked, and dies, does that affect the time they spend in the Cognitive?

Brandon Sanderson

If they are spiked, yes because if you are extra Invested, which spiking technically does, if you have a spike stapling a bit of someone else's soul to yours--

Questioner

The other way. Someone spikes through you and you die--

Brandon Sanderson

Ohhhhh, oh okay, no, that might make you go faster.

Questioner

Is that why Harmony doesn’t know who's spiking people? Or--

Brandon Sanderson

Hmm. Yeah. Okay. I had not considered that. But yeah, sure. *laughter* Suuureee. You added to the canon. I mean, the actual answer was, when you're spiking somebody, you're ripping of the soul, so kind of, there's not enough left to talk. I mean, you're ripping off enough of the soul, so it's a bad thing. It's a very bad thing. So you go "Who killed you?" and it's just somebody who is essentially-- But yes, they would go faster too.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

[Firesong]

6 hours ago, KnightoftheCosmere said:

I was wondering would Mistborns and Radiants be considered to be highly Invested naturally? My interpretation is that they are not naturally Invested like the Returned but instead used lots of Investiture.  However, in Mistborn: Secret History Kelsier is able to stay in the cognitive realm longer becuase he was invested. This doesn't make sense to be because he wasn't actually Invested, he just used Investiture from the metals when he burned them.

Keep in mind this, he was flaring a metal right as he died, thus, he was current inundated with a large amount of Investiture. Mistborn and Mistings aren't normally highly Invested, he just died while heavily Invested.

[Treamayne]

8 hours ago, KnightoftheCosmere said:

This doesn't make sense to be because he wasn't actually Invested

There a multiple ways and terms to "be invested." Allomancers, by definition are Invested (by the definition of "Spirit Web that has access to investiture") due to Snapping. In Stormlight terms, for example, Kaladin is still invested (due to the Nahel Bond) even when he has no Stormlight. Really the "definition" of "invested" is just slightly different for each of the Spiritual, Cognitive, and Physical realms. So, Kelsier already would have lingered because he was a Mistborn (Spiritually invested - much as Elend did) - and he lingered a bit longer because he was also Physically Invested (actively drawing on Investiture by burning and flaring metals).