Relative timing of both secret projects

[+Oltux72]

It seems to me that Yumi and the Nightmare Painter predates Tress of the Emerald Sea because Hoid does not just teleport away using Aons.

But that is a very thin conclusion. Any other clues?

[NameIess]

Hoid probably wouldn’t be able to use Aons without access to the Dor. He might have had some purified Dor in his luggage, but we don’t know how much it would take to travel across planets.

I’m inclined to think it’s after Tress, considering Hoid has protections to stop people from messing with his soul. Admittedly, he could have deactivated those to allow the Sorceress to curse him for the sake of the bet, but it seems more likely that he put the protections in sometime after Tress.

[Argenti]

And presumably the memory loss is referring to RoW not tress

[NameIess]

Yes, either RoW or some other time that we haven’t seen yet.

[+Oltux72]

59 minutes ago, Nameless* said:

Yes, either RoW or some other time that we haven’t seen yet.

Well, but then we saw the protection backfiring, so the assumption would have to be that Hoid removed it and hence Tress of the Emmerald Sea is later.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, but then we saw the protection backfiring, so the assumption would have to be that Hoid removed it and hence Tress of the Emmerald Sea is later.

Possible.

[ftl]

Real hard to tell. There's spaceships in both. Hoid doesn't teleport with Aons, but then again maybe teleporting away from the planet with Aons requires more knowledge of exactly where/how to teleport than Hoid has, or maybe it requires a map of the area which Hoid doesn't have, or something else. There could be explanations either way.

[Argenti]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, but then we saw the protection backfiring, so the assumption would have to be that Hoid removed it and hence Tress of the Emmerald Sea is later.

He consented  to the curse.

[Firesong]

So, we know it is 1763 years after they discovered Awakening at absolute minimum. Likely more for them to make an advanced machine like that. (this is also probably Rosharan years as he used those in the book before, so maybe 1939 years)

Awakening was discovered 400 years before Warbreaker, which is "a few generations" before Stormlight. Let's just say 100 years. 

So, it would be at minimum 1263 years after the current books. But, the time that Awakening gets to Komashi is obviously going to be far later than the year Awakening is discovered. So it is likely going to be far later. But no matter what, it is going to be ~1263 or ~1439 (if 1763 is Rosharan scale) years at the absolute minimum. 

I am looking towards several hundred years after the minimum though, if not just more than 1763. 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Firesong

[Argenti]

13 minutes ago, Firesong said:

So, we know it is 1763 years after they discovered Awakening at absolute minimum. Likely more for them to make an advanced machine like that. (this is also probably Rosharan years as he used those in the book before, so maybe 1939 years)

Awakening was discovered 400 years before Warbreaker, which is "a few generations" before Stormlight. Let's just say 100 years. 

So, it would be at minimum 1263 years after the current books. But, the time that Awakening gets to Komashi is obviously going to be far later than the year Awakening is discovered. So it is likely going to be far later. But no matter what, it is going to be ~1263 or ~1439 (if 1763 is Rosharan scale) years at the absolute minimum. 

I am looking towards several hundred years after the minimum though, if not just more than 1763. 

I don't think it's Nalthian Awakening, any more than Shallan uses Yolish Lightweaving. 

[Firesong]

4 minutes ago, Argenti said:

I don't think it's Nalthian Awakening, any more than Shallan uses Yolish Lightweaving. 

I assumed it was as they talked about Commands, sentience, etc. All the stuff we associate with Nalthian Awakening. I don't think there was anything to imply it was a similar but different arte. But it is definitely a possibility. 

[Argenti]

Just now, Firesong said:

I assumed it was as they talked about Commands, sentience, etc. All the stuff we associate with Nalthian Awakening. I don't think there was anything to imply it was a similar but different arte. But it is definitely a possibility. 

I was guessing because it needed extra power, which traditional awakening shouldn't. (Unless the machine is weird, which is possible)

[Bremen]

28 minutes ago, Argenti said:

I was guessing because it needed extra power, which traditional awakening shouldn't. (Unless the machine is weird, which is possible)

It is similar to Nightblood in that they both turn souls into black smoke (midnight essence?), and both required quite a large amount of investiture turn on.

The stacking machine needed the extra power to maintain Hion Lines in line with it's command, and for occasional repair. Nightblood doesn't need to generate power to destroy evil (please nobody ever suggest this to them!), and they don't need repair either due to being so heavily invested. So either the machine is not as invested or due to differences in Nalthins/UTol awakening, or only it's central core/CPU is. That could be rather scary if the core of the machine survived...

[Argenti]

Just now, Bremen said:

It is similar to Nightblood in that they both turn souls into black smoke (midnight essence?), and both required quite a large amount of investiture turn on.

The stacking machine needed the extra power to maintain Hion Lines in line with it's command, and for occasional repair. Nightblood doesn't need to generate power to destroy evil (please nobody ever suggest this to them!), and they don't need repair either due to being so heavily invested. So either the machine is not as invested or due to differences in Nalthins/UTol awakening, or only it's central core/CPU is. That could be rather scary if the core of the machine survived...

THATS WHAT THE EVIL WAS ALL ALONG

/j

[Firesong]

4 hours ago, Bremen said:

It is similar to Nightblood in that they both turn souls into black smoke (midnight essence?), and both required quite a large amount of investiture turn on.

The stacking machine needed the extra power to maintain Hion Lines in line with it's command, and for occasional repair. Nightblood doesn't need to generate power to destroy evil (please nobody ever suggest this to them!), and they don't need repair either due to being so heavily invested. So either the machine is not as invested or due to differences in Nalthins/UTol awakening, or only it's central core/CPU is. That could be rather scary if the core of the machine survived...

How did I not make that connection with the souls being shredded into a black substance, it is indeed very close to what Nightblood does. That is so obvious but it somehow didn't occur to me. 

[+Oltux72]

12 hours ago, Firesong said:

I assumed it was as they talked about Commands, sentience, etc. All the stuff we associate with Nalthian Awakening. I don't think there was anything to imply it was a similar but different arte. But it is definitely a possibility. 

You also have to give the summoned spirits commands to tell them what to turn into.

And the ancient fabrials of Roshar had to be told at a minimum into a fabrial of which Surge they were to turn into. Just as Soulcasting requires commands. And just as you give your Shardblade a command to stay manifested to lend it to somebody or when you throw it. Commands are most prominent in Awakening but not limited to it.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

On 7/2/2023 at 11:37 PM, Argenti said:

I don't think it's Nalthian Awakening, any more than Shallan uses Yolish Lightweaving. 

I'm inclined to agree with this version, I don't think they actually used Nalthian Awakening. It could be called Awakening in that it's the same effect just achieved through different means. A construct powered by Investiture (in this case Hijo/souls instead of Breaths) and obeying Commands (in this case the coding of the machine rather than an actual, verbal Command). This is taking place after a decent amount of time into the future, enough so that the different populations of different planets know enough about other Invested Arts that they begin to conflate them by effect rather than method. An illusion is a Lightweaving, no matter whether it's been achieved through Rosharan Lightweaving, Yolish Lightweaving, or Aons. Similarly, Teleporting is Elsecalling, whether that's through the actual Surge of Transportation, through Aon Tia, or through a Dakhor sacrifice. Same effect, same name, regardless of how it's achieved.

[Werewolff Studios]

On 7/3/2023 at 8:37 AM, Argenti said:

I don't think it's Nalthian Awakening, any more than Shallan uses Yolish Lightweaving. 

I feel this is correct - it's an example of cosmere parallel, similar to Elsecalling as @Underwater_Worldhopper mentioned.

Initially I thought they were Nalthian. There is a bit in the book where Hwanji says the four scholars are unlike any other scholars she's known - mentioning 'they spend all day sneaking around. Shooting everyone dark glances.' This made me think they were worldhoppers; appearing like strangers to the local people.

However, the more I think of it, it's probably just descriptive character prose. When Yumi confronts them near the end of the book, one of them says "Our people became but memories." If they were worldhoppers, he probably would've said "Your people."

That doesn't rule out the potential of a different set of worldhoppers gifting these scholars with the understanding of how Awakening works, but I don't think that really changes the story. Would be kind of hilarious if it was the Five Scholars who told them about it though. 

[GoldMisting]

1 hour ago, Werewolff Studios said:

That doesn't rule out the potential of a different set of worldhoppers gifting these scholars with the understanding of how Awakening works, but I don't think that really changes the story. Would be kind of hilarious if it was the Five Scholars who told them about it though. 

Considering how the worldhoppers somehow went totally unnoticed in Painter's circle of acquaintances despite not attempting very hard or very well to fit in (even trying to out themselves repeatedly) in an era where people were actively aware of life on another planet, we may never know just how many world hoppers there were 1763 years and more ago.  It's possible no one really thought about it in a pre industrial society.  Then we got a literal dark age with people soup/god blood blotting out the sun and all kinds of PTSD being the oral record that survived

There's not a ton of space travel or astral projection science fiction (versus mythology or folklore with elements in common) written before the industrial revolution in our own world either