Cosmere Connections

[Havoc]

Looks like this book had fewer Cosmere connections as compared to Tress.

Here's what I could see

• Virtuosity is the 15th named Shard
• The world is shares and orbit with a planet populated by Shodel (UTol)
• Hoid & Design (duh!)
• Masaka/Hordeling stuff
• Was the Machine actually Awakened, or was it some kind of parallel equivalent arcana?
• The Cosmere has 'fay'. Is that different from 'fain life'?
• General realmantic stuff

Are we meant to know anything more about UTol than what has been revealed in this book?

[Guest]

Still on my 1st pass, but I think it important to include that Virtuosity Splintered HERSELF, making this the first Shard kill not caused by something external.

[Pagerunner]

I think the machine is truly Awakened, since that word gets used multiple times and capitalized, even by the scholars' shades (if I recall correctly). There is a little bit of funny business going on with how Hoid swaps some words like carnival around, but not to technical magical terminology. The spirits are always referred to as "spirits," even though the audience is Rosharan and Hoid could have been calling them "spren" the whole time, so I don't expect he'd switch to a foreign magic like Awakening as a close-but-not-quite explanation.

That being said, the line of "fay, seons, or spirits" technically makes it possible that the fay aren't a new kind of Invested entity, but merely a new term for the Rosharan variety. But I don't think so, I'm guessing they're like our mysterious brollins, located somewhere else that we haven't seen yet. Maybe UTol itself?

[Slink]

Do we think the audience is specifically Shin due to the use of 'nimi' as an honorific? It doesn't seem likely that they could have influenced the Shin given the time period. The only other explanation I can think of is that the Shin, or related peoples will later move to populate Komashi.

 

Speaking of timelines, though this seems to be pretty late in the cosmere, where does 1700 years prior fit in? It's such a large timescale that it could predate most of the cosmere, or it could come after everything we've seen so far. All we really know is that 1700 years later, Hoid has met design, but isn't tied up on Roshar and there seems to be a more standardized system of physical interplanetary travel.

[Inkspren_K]

4 hours ago, Slink said:

Do we think the audience is specifically Shin due to the use of 'nimi' as an honorific? It doesn't seem likely that they could have influenced the Shin given the time period. The only other explanation I can think of is that the Shin, or related peoples will later move to populate Komashi.

 

Speaking of timelines, though this seems to be pretty late in the cosmere, where does 1700 years prior fit in? It's such a large timescale that it could predate most of the cosmere, or it could come after everything we've seen so far. All we really know is that 1700 years later, Hoid has met design, but isn't tied up on Roshar and there seems to be a more standardized system of physical interplanetary travel.

It definitely seems like the audience is Rosharan. I'm not sure if they're specifically Shin or not, this is late enough in the Cosmere that Shin use of -nimi could have spread, at least easily to the rest of Roshar. 

I'm wondering if this is similar in time to Mistborn Era 3, with the existence of early space travel, tvs, limited phones, or at least this seems similar to the tech level we've been told see there. Not sure where 1700 years earlier put those events though. 

[RedBlue]

39 minutes ago, Inkspren_K said:

I'm wondering if this is similar in time to Mistborn Era 3, with the existence of early space travel, tvs, limited phones, or at least this seems similar to the tech level we've been told see there.

I got the impression that the (presumably Rosharan) audience has fairly advanced space travel, since Hoid talks casually about tourism to the planet at the end of the story. Not sure where this would put it in terms of Mistborn Eras, though. 

[Inkspren_K]

1 hour ago, RedBlue said:

I got the impression that the (presumably Rosharan) audience has fairly advanced space travel, since Hoid talks casually about tourism to the planet at the end of the story. Not sure where this would put it in terms of Mistborn Eras, though. 

I guess I was maybe thinking he was telling a space age audience a story that happened in more of a Era 3 time period. So I was referring the period it happens in, not the period that it's being told in of that makes a difference. 

[HavingTheHasHoidAPurpose?]

So at first I thought they are definitely not shin. The people of this world are quite clearly asian (culturally and in the artwork.) and the Shin are quite clearly the one not genetically asian group of humans on roshar.

On second thought however, it makes a lot of sense for shin linguistic customs to stick around if they merge with the other ethnicities around them, leading to (mostly) asians having shin honorifics like nimi

 

[RedBlue]

7 hours ago, Inkspren_K said:

I guess I was maybe thinking he was telling a space age audience a story that happened in more of an Era 3 time period. So I was referring the period it happens in, not the period that it's being told in of that makes a difference. 

Yumi and Painter are still alive and running the noodle shop at the time Hoid is telling the story, and there’s no reason to think either of them have longer than normal lifespans. So I don’t think there can be more than a few decades between the events of the story and Hoid’s telling. Maybe cosmere space travel goes from ‘first forays off planet’ to ‘interstellar tourism is normal’ within one lifetime, but it seems more likely to me that Komashi is behind the major players in terms of technological development. 

[+Oltux72]

20 hours ago, Havoc said:

• Was the Machine actually Awakened, or was it some kind of parallel equivalent arcana?

It seems the latter. An actually Awakened machine would be powered by its Breaths.

20 hours ago, Havoc said:

Looks like this book had fewer Cosmere connections as compared to Tress.

• Dragons like steak
• Hoid owns a fabrial that can do at least half a Bondsmith's job and it is a recent invention
• Giving spren bodies ended badly
• Elantrians are more invested than Returned
• a Rosharan audience knows rice. That implies that interstellar trade has become cheap
• there is a reguarly, though not frequently, scheduled service for interstellar travel
• Threnody was still odd by the time Design got off Roshar
• Rosarans know about allomantic tin. Either madaillions are exported or there is rather frequent contact

14 hours ago, Slink said:

Speaking of timelines, though this seems to be pretty late in the cosmere, where does 1700 years prior fit in? It's such a large timescale that it could predate most of the cosmere, or it could come after everything we've seen so far. All we really know is that 1700 years later, Hoid has met design, but isn't tied up on Roshar and there seems to be a more standardized system of physical interplanetary travel.

We may note that Harmony did not mention Virtuosity. But that amounts to drawing conclusions from a negative. She may just have been a hermit, as few met her standards.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Oltux72
forgot tin

[The flying spider]

Do you think the 4 scholars who created the machine are from nalthis?

Share your opinions.

 

 

[RedBlue]

57 minutes ago, Awakened rock stacker said:

Do you think the 4 scholars who created the machine are from nalthis?

I don’t think so. They don’t say or do anything that suggests they’re worldhoppers. They have some knowledge of an Invested Art analogous to Awakening, but they seem to have discovered that independently. 

[redshadow310]

14 hours ago, RedBlue said:

I got the impression that the (presumably Rosharan) audience has fairly advanced space travel, since Hoid talks casually about tourism to the planet at the end of the story. Not sure where this would put it in terms of Mistborn Eras, though. 

My guess is that Yumi and Painter's story takes place in late 3 or early 4 era when space travel is somewhat uncommon as Design mentions the next ship coming to the planet isn't for 3 years. Hoid however, is probably telling this to someone in or close to era 5 however, when space travel is much more common.

[+Oltux72]

8 minutes ago, redshadow310 said:

My guess is that Yumi and Painter's story takes place in late 3 or early 4 era when space travel is somewhat uncommon as Design mentions the next ship coming to the planet isn't for 3 years. Hoid however, is probably telling this to someone in or close to era 5 however, when space travel is much more common.

That planet is an uncontacted backwater with a tiny population. Frankly, it is odd that it gets regular, albeit infrequent service at all.

[ftl]

It could be a special service hoid arranged rather than a normal thing - "drop me off on this planet, check back on me in 5 years and then in 10", something like that.

[Frogs]

In the second epilogue, Hoid mentions a time when he had his memories stolen. I think the only time we've seen that is at the end of RoW when Taravangian messes with his Breath. I think it's likely it's a reference to that and he eventually finds out what happened to him, though it could also be another event that we don't know about.

[Storm-It]

I saw strong parallels between the hion lines and the source of investiture that the Ire use in their fortress. I don't know what to call the investiture on Komashi, but of course it has got to have differences with the Dor.

[Firesong]

5 minutes ago, Storm-It said:

I saw strong parallels between the hion lines and the source of investiture that the Ire use in their fortress. I don't know what to call the investiture on Komashi, but of course it has got to have differences with the Dor.

Eh, the pipes used for the Ire were more like transport pipes for Dor Investiture. But I guess Hion Lines are also essentially wires. But I feel that the similarities are pretty vague. 

[Kaladong Stormguy]

On the topic of when this story is being told, I definitely think it's around Era 4 Mistborn. If I'm not mistaken, Era 3 will be early space exploration (like the Space Race during the Cold War) and it's not till Era 4 that Scadrians have at the very least started regular interplanetary travel. Since Design mentions "Iron Seven Waystation" in the second prologue, it sounds like Scadrians are not only exploring space, but are the ones who are actively running space travel (at least in some sectors). It sounds like we're in deep space age Cosmere.

[Dunkum]

On 7/2/2023 at 7:15 AM, RedBlue said:

Yumi and Painter are still alive and running the noodle shop at the time Hoid is telling the story, and there’s no reason to think either of them have longer than normal lifespans. So I don’t think there can be more than a few decades between the events of the story and Hoid’s telling. Maybe cosmere space travel goes from ‘first forays off planet’ to ‘interstellar tourism is normal’ within one lifetime, but it seems more likely to me that Komashi is behind the major players in terms of technological development. 

given that Yumi is (or at least was? not clear whether she still is a the end) more invested than a returned, and given her lifetime is already centuries, she definitely could live beyond a normal lifespan. Painter, on the other hand, is standard human

[RedBlue]

21 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

given that Yumi is (or at least was? not clear whether she still is a the end) more invested than a returned, and given her lifetime is already centuries, she definitely could live beyond a normal lifespan.

Being heavily Invested does not, in and of itself, slow or stop aging. Other Invested people (eg Radiants, mistborn, etc) age normally — the people who have extra long lifespans have some other effect going on.

Yumi didn’t age during the 1700 years she was trapped by the machine because she didn’t have a physical body. Now that she has regained a physical form, there’s no particular reason to believe her lifespan will be unusually long.

[Bremen]

1 hour ago, RedBlue said:

Being heavily Invested does not, in and of itself, slow or stop aging.

I've long thought that was the general consensus...

1 hour ago, RedBlue said:

Other Invested people (eg Radiants, mistborn, etc) age normally

Radiants/Mistborn are not heavily invested, they can access large amounts of investiture, but it is not native to them.

[Dunkum]

9 minutes ago, Bremen said:

I've long thought that was the general consensus...

Radiants/Mistborn are not heavily invested, they can access large amounts of investiture, but it is not native to them.

exactly the point I was going to make. Elantrians and 5+ heightening Nalthians are the best counterparts we have to Yumi, in terms of raw investiture that is retained, and both of those effectively stop aging.

1 hour ago, RedBlue said:

Yumi didn’t age during the 1700 years she was trapped by the machine because she didn’t have a physical body. Now that she has regained a physical form, there’s no particular reason to believe her lifespan will be unusually long.

Her situation definitely is a bit unique, but I think she did have a physical body, just not necessarily her original one. all of the events take place in the physical realm, and besides, how could Painter inhabit her body if it wasn't physical?

[Werewolff Studios]

8 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

Her situation definitely is a bit unique, but I think she did have a physical body, just not necessarily her original one. all of the events take place in the physical realm, and besides, how could Painter inhabit her body if it wasn't physical?

I agree in the sense that she had a physical body, but I don't know if it was fully 'hers' or something created by the machine. It's only near the end of the book when she realizes the power she has to warp it through her Cognitive perception.

Another thing to consider is that souls/ the spiritual aspects in the cosmere know how old they are. This is kind of why the Lord Ruler and the Herald's immortality is flawed - their Spiritual and Physical selves are out of alignment.

The way that I see it (though I could be wrong) is that Yumi's Cognitive and Spiritual aspects were 'stuck' at nineteen years old during those 1700 years. She never really aged until her Connection with Painter was established.

Also, I feel that her final body was created via the two of them, and part of that was Nikaro's Intent to create a flesh and blood form, along with all the Connection flying about. That made that final body more permanent. And, once it was completed, all three of her aspects were in full alignment and awareness, no longer stuck. And likely able to age normally again.

15 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

exactly the point I was going to make. Elantrians and 5+ heightening Nalthians are the best counterparts we have to Yumi, in terms of raw investiture that is retained, and both of those effectively stop aging.

This is a fair point to consider. One thing worth mentioning is that Yumi never talks about the other yoki-hijo having unnaturally long lives during her conversations in the book. They all seemed to live (according to memories prior to the machine) a fairly typical live span. Maybe it's due to their Invested nature manifesting kind of like a Nahel Bond - ie, the spirits gift a portion of their strength to the yoki-hijo at birth, suffusing their spiritweb. It's just a lot more Investiture than the likes of a Radiant. Only a theory though. 

One point about Elantrians is that they are constantly renewed by the Dor, so the Investiture needed for their longevity is pumped into them. Maybe this is what was happening to Yumi too; she was constantly being renewed by the shroud during the last few centuries. With that gone, she's not got that source of Investiture to draw from anymore.

5+ Heightening Nalthians make for a better argument. It's hard to say exactly what effect it has when conflicting with their Cognitive and Spiritual aspects though, as I don't think we've seen anyone at that Heightening that wasn't also a Returned (unless you count Hoid, but he's weird).

But still, this is a solid point to draw from. Would be a good question to ask Brandon. 

[RedBlue]

1 hour ago, Bremen said:

Radiants/Mistborn are not heavily invested, they can access large amounts of investiture, but it is not native to them.

They are definitely more Invested than baseline in addition to being able to use Investiture. That’s why Kelsier was able to stick around long enough to become a Cognitive Shadow.

It’s true that Elantrians and Nalthians with lots of Breath are longer lived, but that’s an effect of the specific type of Investiture they have.

 

I’ve just remembered this exchange from chapter 22:

Quote

“The others…retire?” Yumi asked. “I was told…this wasn’t possible. That they have to work even when infirm.”
“They insist on being finished at age seventy,” Hwanji said as Painter repeated Yumi’s words.

Which implies normal yoki-hijo, who are presumably just as Invested as Yumi, have normal life spans.