[WoR Spoiler]Honorblade vs Shardblade

[Quiver]

So, my understanding of things is that, as a result of the Recreance, the spren took the form of Shardblades because the Nahel bond was an attempt by the spren to recreate the Heralds; since the Heralds had the Honorblades, that meant the Spren's 'default' form would be Shardblades.

 

And we kind of see that play out when, upon transforming into a weapon, Syl's first choice is a sword, before correcting herself and saying Kaladin probably wants a spear instead.

 

My question is... if the shardblades are "based" on the honorblades, why is there such a size discrepancy? The Shardblades are kind of oversized weapons, whereas the Honorblades (at least the ones we've seen) are smaller. Is there any realmantic reason for the size difference?

Edited July 10, 2014 by Quiver

[Moogle]

My question is... if the shardblades are "based" on the honorblades, why is there such a size discrepancy? The Shardblades are kind of oversized weapons, whereas the Honorblades (at least the ones we've seen) are smaller. Is there any realmantic reason for the size difference?

 

Shardblades (and most likely the Honorblades) change over time. If nothing else, Szeth's hatred of his Blade may have shrunk it, and it may also have removed the runes from it (as it was once described as being majestically crafted and quite ornate, whereas it's more utilitarian in modern days).

 

WoB:

Q:  Yeah, I noticed they do seem like advanced fabrials, because Adolin just keeps going on and on about how they're all interchangeable and how they all feel comfortable after a while, and it doesn't have the same kind of thing with the Shardblades.

A:  No, it doesn't. Though a Shardblade, used for a long time, will change shape slightly.

(source)

 

So there's two answers to this question I can think of:

• Jezrien's Honorblade was once the same size as most Shardblades, or
• a few thousand years of Alethi masculine sensibilities has increased the size of most every other Shardblade.

It seems to be very perception-based, much like the Returned's appearance.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Moogle

[Argent]

Perception, I believe, is the right answer here.

 

I should also note that Szeth's - Jezrien's - Honorblade might be an exception. When "Taln" shows up before the gates of Kholinar, for example, his Honorblade is described as massive. At the end of the day, we just haven't seen enough of those, but I have a good feeling about the sizes of both Shard- and Honorblades depending on their current (and past few, probably) wielder; I can't imagine Lyss wielding a massive Shardblade for some reason...

[Aleksiel]

Szeth's Honorblade probably adapt to him fighting humans and that's why it shrank. Though to be fair most Shardbearers also fight other people and their Blades stay huge, but are also dead which has damaged their ability to adapt, whereas the Honorblade is the same as always. Except for the fancy ornaments that are now missing...

 

It's interesting it changed that much, I wouldn't have expected for the inscribed glyphs and patters to disappear over time. However, I think they faded away before Szeth got it because no ornaments are mentioned in WoK prologue and he had just got it then.

[Argent]

Oh, and there is the thing that Szeth's highly mobile fighting style might work better with a thinner Shardblade - though without the weight restrictions normal weapons must be subject to, I don't know if a bigger Blade would hinder him.

[TheBrian]

 

 

So, my understanding of things is that, as a result of the Recreance, the spren took the form of Shardblades because the Nahel bond was an attempt by the spren to recreate the Heralds; since the Heralds had the Honorblades, that meant the Spren's 'default' form would be Shardblades.

 

From your quote, it sounds like you think the Knights Radiant began after the Recreance.  I think the actual timeline is this:

1. The Heralds originally fought in the Desolations almost solo, with their only assistance being from normal soldiers.
2. Spren figured out how to bond with humans and give them similar abilities to the Heralds.
3. Someone (Nahel?) changed the nature of the bond so that swearing oaths was necessary, as a control on the Knight's power.
4. Lots of Desolations happen with KR backing up the Heralds.
5. The Heralds cannot bear their punishment and so give up, telling everyone that they had won.
6. The Knights Radiant carry on, but without the Heralds to lead them their conflicting views on honor (as reflected in their oaths) cause serious problems, including wars with Radiants on each side.  Eventually, the Knights get trapped like Kaladin was when he was simultaneously sworn to protect Elhokar and keep the secret of a conspiracy against Elhokar's life.  So the Knights do the least dishonorable thing and walk away, killing their spren in the process.  This act becomes known as the Recreance.

[Moogle]

Perception, I believe, is the right answer here.

 

I should also note that Szeth's - Jezrien's - Honorblade might be an exception. When "Taln" shows up before the gates of Kholinar, for example, his Honorblade is described as massive. At the end of the day, we just haven't seen enough of those, but I have a good feeling about the sizes of both Shard- and Honorblades depending on their current (and past few, probably) wielder; I can't imagine Lyss wielding a massive Shardblade for some reason...

 

At the risk of derailing this topic, it is quite possible (likely, even) that "Taln's" Blade was not in fact an Honorblade. Szeth's changes his eyecolor whenever he summons it, and "Taln" had dark eyes.

 

Also (spoilers for Stones Unhallowed):

Kaladin's eyes change for hours (where they revert to brown) whenever he uses Stormlight or summons Syl, which seems similar to how Jezrien's Honorblade changes Szeth's eye color when summoned. So it seems to be a very general property of Honorblades that they change their wielder's eyecolor when summoned, further supporting my suspicion that "Taln's" Blade is not an Honorblade.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Moogle

[Quiver]

Shardblades (and most likely the Honorblades) change over time. If nothing else, Szeth's hatred of his Blade may have shrunk it, and it may also have removed the runes from it (as it was once described as being majestically crafted and quite ornate, whereas it's more utilitarian in modern days).

 

WoB:

 

So there's two answers to this question I can think of:

• Jezrien's Honorblade was once the same size as most Shardblades, or
• a few thousand years of Alethi masculine sensibilities has increased the size of most every other Shardblade.

It seems to be very perception-based, much like the Returned's appearance.

 

Ah... didn't realize Shardblade appearances changed over time, thanks for that. Hm... kind of makes me wonder if there is any kind of a link between the Heralds perceptions of themselves and the appearances of their blades...

 

Perception, I believe, is the right answer here.

 

I should also note that Szeth's - Jezrien's - Honorblade might be an exception. When "Taln" shows up before the gates of Kholinar, for example, his Honorblade is described as massive. At the end of the day, we just haven't seen enough of those, but I have a good feeling about the sizes of both Shard- and Honorblades depending on their current (and past few, probably) wielder; I can't imagine Lyss wielding a massive Shardblade for some reason...

With Taln, I thought his blade was noticably smaller, but that might have been my own mistake; I know it was described as being spike-like, rather than the cleaver-like blade Dalinar gets his hands on... so maybe I was confusing appearance with actual sizes. 

 

 

From your quote, it sounds like you think the Knights Radiant began after the Recreance.  I think the actual timeline is this:

1. The Heralds originally fought in the Desolations almost solo, with their only assistance being from normal soldiers.
2. Spren figured out how to bond with humans and give them similar abilities to the Heralds.
3. Someone (Nahel?) changed the nature of the bond so that swearing oaths was necessary, as a control on the Knight's power.
4. Lots of Desolations happen with KR backing up the Heralds.
5. The Heralds cannot bear their punishment and so give up, telling everyone that they had won.
6. The Knights Radiant carry on, but without the Heralds to lead them their conflicting views on honor (as reflected in their oaths) cause serious problems, including wars with Radiants on each side.  Eventually, the Knights get trapped like Kaladin was when he was simultaneously sworn to protect Elhokar and keep the secret of a conspiracy against Elhokar's life.  So the Knights do the least dishonorable thing and walk away, killing their spren in the process.  This act becomes known as the Recreance.

 

I might have phrased it wrong; I know that the Knights Radient existed prior to the Recreance. What I meant was that, thanks to Kaladin, we know Spren were able to take a variety of forms and weapons, but it seems like, once they betrayed their oaths, all the spren turned into Shardblades, rather than having some Shardspears, or Shardshields, or Shardaxes, or whatever an individuals preferred weapon might have been.

 

I'm assuming the form of a sword was taken as the default because the relationship between spren and KR was modelled on the relationship between Honor and the Heralds; the Heralds used Honorblades, so the default form for spren as Shardblade seemed reasonable.

[Argent]

Yes, Shardblades defaulted to a sword form because they were created to imitate the Honorblades. We have a WoB on that.

[kaellok]

We don't know if Honorblades can change their size and shape or not, but we do know that sprenblades can do so freely and Shardblades can do so incredibly slowly over long periods of time; it's not crazy to think that Honorblades can change size and shape as well.  I would posit that there is a maximum size that a Blade can be, and when the KR murdered their spren in the Recreace, the Blades 'defaulted' to this maximum size.  There is likely some advantage to having a Blade only 2/3 as long as it can be rather than it fullest size possible (If anyone has read I, Jedi then you should have some of the same ideas I do).

[Savanorn]

At the risk of derailing this topic, it is quite possible (likely, even) that "Taln's" Blade was not in fact an Honorblade. Szeth's changes his eyecolor whenever he summons it, and "Taln" had dark eyes.

 

Also (spoilers for Stones Unhallowed):

Kaladin's eyes change for hours (where they revert to brown) whenever he uses Stormlight or summons Syl, which seems similar to how Jezrien's Honorblade changes Szeth's eye color when summoned. So it seems to be a very general property of Honorblades that they change their wielder's eyecolor when summoned, further supporting my suspicion that "Taln's" Blade is not an Honorblade.

 

Interesting, but it is the same...or at least described similarly...to the spike-like blade. 

 

Could it be that he had managed to unbond it? (or it wasn't really Taln, wielding but not bonding Taln's blade)

 

As a side note, I believe honorblades are referred to as being more powerful than sprenblades, anyone have thoughts on this?

Edited July 11, 2014 by Savanorn

[Aleksiel]

As a side note, I believe honorblades are referred to as being more powerful than sprenblades, anyone have thoughts on this?

 

This is likely because Honorblades grant surgebinding powers, whereas Shardblade doesn't.

[Moogle]

Interesting, but it is the same...or at least described similarly...to the spike-like blade. 

 

Could it be that he had managed to unbond it? (or it wasn't really Taln, wielding but not bonding Taln's blade)

 

As a side note, I believe honorblades are referred to as being more powerful than sprenblades, anyone have thoughts on this?

 

Honorblades consume Investiture, which is why Szeth is less efficient than Kaladin. They can probably use that consumed Investiture to do some interesting things, along the lines of what Nightblood does.

 

This is likely because Honorblades grant surgebinding powers, whereas Shardblade doesn't.

 

Sprenblades do grant Surgebinding abilities, they just don't if you use a dead spren. Honorblades really are amazingly similar to Shardblades.

[Aleksiel]

Sprenblades do grant Surgebinding abilities, they just don't if you use a dead spren. Honorblades really are amazingly similar to Shardblades.

 

I meant you get a Blade as a result of having advanced surgebinding abilities, but you don't get surgebinding by bonding a random Blade.

[Moogle]

I meant you get a Blade as a result of having advanced surgebinding abilities, but you don't get surgebinding by bonding a random Blade.

 

This is going to sound really pedantic (sorry), but I don't see the difference between the two. Spren are the Shardblades. By bonding a live spren (which is a Blade when pulled into the Physical), you get Surgebinding abilities, even if you can't quite pull the spren into the Physical enough to see them as a Blade.

 

So I don't think it's fair to say that the Honorblades are more powerful than Shardblades because of how they grant Surgebinding like you're saying. I'd argue that Shardblades give the same abilities, since they are live spren. Honorblades probably do something different than yon regular sprenbond, and the major difference I can see is that Honorblades use Investiture for something.

[Aleksiel]

This is going to sound really pedantic (sorry), but I don't see the difference between the two. Spren are the Shardblades. By bonding a live spren (which is a Blade when pulled into the Physical), you get Surgebinding abilities, even if you can't quite pull the spren into the Physical enough to see them as a Blade.

 

So I don't think it's fair to say that the Honorblades are more powerful than Shardblades because of how they grant Surgebinding like you're saying. I'd argue that Shardblades give the same abilities, since they are live spren. Honorblades probably do something different than yon regular sprenbond, and the major difference I can see is that Honorblades use Investiture for something.

 

I was merely guessing why someone would say Honorblades are more powerful. Also, when I said 'bond a Shardblade' I meant a dead spren, so no surgebinding. Spren themselves aren't limited to Sharblades when alive, so it's incorrect in my mind to consider these two words synonyms.

[Moogle]

I was merely guessing why someone would say Honorblades are more powerful. Also, when I said 'bond a Shardblade' I meant a dead spren, so no surgebinding. Spren themselves aren't limited to Sharblades when alive, so it's incorrect in my mind to consider these two words synonyms.

 

Okay, but Kalak, when he says Honorblades are weapons of power "beyond even Shardblades", is looking at Radiants with live spren as he says that, so I'm still not quite convinced that it's about the Surgebinding power it grants.

 

I'll concede the point on Shardblades being the same as live spren. I can see your arguments, it just doesn't seem right to me to say they're different. It's all semantics and kinda unimportant, so I'm going to leave it there.

[Aleksiel]

Okay, but Kalak, when he says Honorblades are weapons of power "beyond even Shardblades", is looking at Radiants with live spren as he says that, so I'm still not quite convinced that it's about the Surgebinding power it grants.

 

Hmm, I've forgotten it was Kalak who said that. May be because they use less stormlight and change shape to anything very fast, though there might be more to it. 

 

edit:  I got it wrong and thought Shardblades being better   Sorry about that. Well, I have no idea why Honorblades should be considered more powerful if we count Sharblades as granting surgebinding. 

Edited July 11, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Shaggai]

At the risk of derailing this topic, it is quite possible (likely, even) that "Taln's" Blade was not in fact an Honorblade. Szeth's changes his eyecolor whenever he summons it, and "Taln" had dark eyes.

 

Also (spoilers for Stones Unhallowed):

Kaladin's eyes change for hours (where they revert to brown) whenever he uses Stormlight or summons Syl, which seems similar to how Jezrien's Honorblade changes Szeth's eye color when summoned. So it seems to be a very general property of Honorblades that they change their wielder's eyecolor when summoned, further supporting my suspicion that "Taln's" Blade is not an Honorblade.

If it's not an Honorblade, why would someone go to the trouble of switching it out for a different Shardblade? It's also possible that there was some weird stuff with Szeth and the Honorblade. For example, it's supposedly impossible to bond Honorblades. But then how did Szeth summon it? Was it some property of the Oathstone? Either way, there are probably some different mechanics going on here compared to an Honorblade straight from the hands of a Herald. The light eyes might be a related effect.

[Moogle]

If it's not an Honorblade, why would someone go to the trouble of switching it out for a different Shardblade? It's also possible that there was some weird stuff with Szeth and the Honorblade. For example, it's supposedly impossible to bond Honorblades. But then how did Szeth summon it? Was it some property of the Oathstone? Either way, there are probably some different mechanics going on here compared to an Honorblade straight from the hands of a Herald. The light eyes might be a related effect.

 

I don't know the answers to why the Shardblade was swapped, which makes me uncertain on the whole thing, but I've been looking at eye color and trying to figure out theories on it for months. The world works much more smoothly if what "Taln" had was not an Honorblade he was bonded to, because otherwise there are exceptions in the mechanics of eye color being changed. The mechanics of magic are consistent and predictable, but the actions of people are not.

 

As to Honorblades, they can be bonded. The WoB on that was mistaken, and was later rectified. Unless the first WoB was right and the second was wrong. :/

 

.

[hoser]

In tWoK, Kalak describes the seven blades in a circle.  He doesn't describe his own or Jezrien's.  After describing the other swords, he narrates that Jezrien sticks his in the circle. 

So, ...

My question is... if the shardblades are "based" on the honorblades, why is there such a size discrepancy? The Shardblades are kind of oversized weapons, whereas the Honorblades (at least the ones we've seen) are smaller. Is there any realmantic reason for the size difference?

 

 

Shardblades (and most likely the Honorblades) change over time. If nothing else, Szeth's hatred of his Blade may have shrunk it, and it may also have removed the runes from it (as it was once described as being majestically crafted and quite ornate, whereas it's more utilitarian in modern days).

 

WoB:

 

So there's two answers to this question I can think of:

• Jezrien's Honorblade was once the same size as most Shardblades, or
• a few thousand years of Alethi masculine sensibilities has increased the size of most every other Shardblade.

It seems to be very perception-based, much like the Returned's appearance.

Another possibility is that Jezrien's sword was always smaller.  Szeth describes it as "smaller (not shorter) than most others".  So it is not even uniquely small. 

Edited July 11, 2014 by hoser

[Shaggai]

I don't know the answers to why the Shardblade was swapped, which makes me uncertain on the whole thing, but I've been looking at eye color and trying to figure out theories on it for months. The world works much more smoothly if what "Taln" had was not an Honorblade he was bonded to, because otherwise there are exceptions in the mechanics of eye color being changed. The mechanics of magic are consistent and predictable, but the actions of people are not.

 

As to Honorblades, they can be bonded. The WoB on that was mistaken, and was later rectified. Unless the first WoB was right and the second was wrong. :/

 

.

Maybe the Heralds, being appointed directly by Honor, have some sort of other connection to their Honorblades, that other people don't have? Or maybe the Honorblade has to be rebonded each time it arrives on Roshar, and Taln didn't have time.

 

Ah, okay. I guess I've just never seen the second WoB.