Thoughts on Shallan?

[Horatio Spifflewicket]

Hi IDK, to do spoilers, you just use [*spoiler] [*/spoiler] around your tags (only without the stars)

 

and you get this!

[Necromancer he/him]

I actually hated her in the audiobooks because Reading's statements ended with the inflections of a question sometimes. Once I read WoK hardcover, I realized she wasn't the Rosharian equivalent of a teenage girl with a smartphone. 

 

Anyway, I now love the character, third favorite to Kaladin and Szeth.

[Savanorn he/him]

My personal opinion is that the people who think that Shallan is a poorly written with no wit have no business reading this book.

 

Shallan is a deeply troubled and complex character. If you want to truely understand and apreciate a character you really must pay attention to what you are reading. Skimming this book (as many do with large books with big words) gives you no understanding of its contents.

Wise cracks and lies is all that she had to sunstain her and keep her from falling into madness. She is an extremely brave, intelligent, and endearing character. One of the best character developements I have ever read. She didn't whine HALF as much as Kaladin, she buckled down no matter what her issues and did what she could, and triumphed!

 

Glad to see pointlessly being exclusionary never goes out of style. 

 

I don't like Shallan, I don't dislike Shallan. She's a middle-tier for me. 

 

I get her tragic past, I get the mix of insecurity, immaturity and talent and compassion she has. I think some of it was compelling, some of it was...I don't know, not boring...I just didn't care. Sometimes she's funny, sometimes I think she tells a dad joke that flatlines. As a character, she definitely has her weak points, and she has her strong ones. 

 

The big thing is that she's a main character, and especially in WoR she's not just a main character she is the main one. I didn't mind with Kaladin, because...at least for me... the crushing despair of his situation and that he manages to dig hope out of (with help) is an engaging and inspiring arc. On top of that, I feel like Kaladin was dropped into a hopeless situation while Shallan has stuff happen, and a lot of it has higher stakes, but it seems more contrived, more artificial to me. 

[kari-no-sugata]

Thanks for the poll! Interesting results... It seems the more negative reactions to Shallan or more "annoyance", "frustration" or "disappointment" rather than "hate".
 
I've always enjoyed Shallan as a character but I also find I need to work harder to feel like I've properly understood her - there's been many cases where I only realised certain things after many re-reads. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. Can anyone thing of any other primary viewpoint character in a fantasy series that is like her? The closest I can think of is Moist von Lipwig from the Discworld novels and they're pretty different still.
 
One interesting thing about Shallan is that she has "learned how to learn" - she knows what she's good at and not so good at and is used to figuring out things by herself. This is not the fastest way to learn but it does give you a different approach and develops your problem solving skills, which is something that is always useful and something that's very hard to teach. This, combined with her natural intelligence, is why she can impress Jasnah, one of the smarted and most learned people around. This is also why she can figure out that Jasnah was a Soulcaster herself rather than simply using one.
 
Her general attitude and approach makes her a good pupil and she does a good job at applying what she learns from Jasnah and others - my favourite example being when (WoR):

She uses her research into Galivar's history, remembers what they did with Yenev and comes up with idea to take down Sadeas. This is taking Jasnah's lesson about learning from history and doing something with the knowledge.

 
 
Rest of this post is replies to other posters, but since it mostly references WoR I'll put it all in spoiler tags:

Shallan on the other hand is a sheltered young girl who quakes at the thought of conflict. She's been out of her manor after being abused by her father for years and years. A few months (? not sure on the timeline), and she's busy pulling fast ones on experienced conwomen, navigating dangerous secret societies with zero setbacks, and in general just has a grand old time succeeding at everything she does. Her competence comes out of nowhere, and it doesn't feel deserved.

 
How I see it: The part I found OTT was the day she reaches the warcamps and ends up face-to-face with a room of Highprinces. The rest I was okay with because we know she's good at observation, she's good at seeing things from other people's point of view, we see her encouraging her family in her flashbacks and so overall I find that her approach to be fairly consistent but that her skill level starts increasingly rapidly with her Lightweaving and general confidence. Shallan absolutely needed that talk on perception from Jasnah because she had been repressing herself for the last 6-7 years and doesn't have much confidence. After that talk she immediately practices on the ship captain - it's a situation in which she naturally has the upper hand since she is the customer. She then has more and more situations to develop her skills in with increasing levels of difficulty. Tyn she initially tricked by accident and then just went along with her assumptions.
 
She definitely has setbacks and failures. Like the whole stick scene. She has some minor failures with the slave trader and Bluth. She very nearly failed to persuade the deserters - she only won over their leader much later on. She never spotted the loophole in Adolin's challenge. She never got sound to work and struggled a lot to figure out some aspects of Lightweaving. She made two big mistakes on her second meeting with the Ghostbloods - she gave away too much of her drawing/memory skill and failed to protect the coach driver. The former lead to the Ghostbloods connecting Veil to Shallan which was the last thing she wanted.
 
Regarding timelines: at start of tWoK she's been chasing Jasnah for 6 months.
 
 

When she isn't using her powers, other people often pretend to be morons so Shallan can shine. I am most specifically talking about the highprince meeting and the Oathgate scenes in WoR, neither of which felt particularly realistic to me. I think Jasnah wasn't in the book much, because Shallan could never step out of her shadow.

 
 
With regards to the Highprinces, while I did find the scene to be OTT, I don't think they suddenly became stupid but that she was just too minor in importance - if she'd been more important (or well known) she would likely have been challenged more. Remember Tyn's talk about being unimportant having its uses? It's not quite the same thing but it's related.
 
With regards to the Oathgate, remember she succeeded only on the third attempt? I would have liked to see the other scholars provide more positive input too but I generally found their objections to be reasonable. Shallan does have several advantages: she's been immersed in this problem for a lot longer (it's not like the location of Stormseat was a big deal until the events of the book), she has all of Jasnah's notes, she believes in Jasnah's work, she knows Radiants exist and has a more positive view of them and she's more used to solving "real world" problems - Shallan was very happy with the work the scholars did on more normal scholarly stuff. Shallan and Jasnah have also regularly complained about the level of quality from other scholars.
 
 

I also find her humor and wisecracks flat. Though I blame this one on Brandon, not on Shallan, if you get what I mean. He wanted to create an extremely witty character, but he pushed it too hard and it doesn't work well (at least for me). I can understand her childhood made her into someone who tries to make a joke out of everything and I am fine with this aspect. I'm not fine with everyone in the books praise Shallan's 'clever' tongue when she seldom says anything worthy of such recognition.

 
This last statement reads as hyperbole to me - praise for her wit is rare, considering the size of the books, and it's mostly from minor characters.
 
 

She was like the Mery Sue of WoR. Suddenly she could pull out anything just by thinking about it. If she wasn't presented in WoK as shy, scared and inexperienced in every possible way, it might have worked better. But she started with drawing skills then suddenly reading books and drawing the landscape made her incredibly competent in all sorts of areas. Brandon needed her to do too much in WoR without letting us see her improve before that.

 
This also reads as hyperbole to me. Consider that in tWoK Shallan figured out Jasnah's secret and forced her to admit it. WoR was as much about Shallan casting off the shackles that were holding her back as re-gaining her Radiant powers. I found a lot of what she did to be logical extensions of previous skills.
 
 

I have great trouble with her character representing the attribute of honesty. It doesn't work for me at all. She is not an honest person, nor does she try to be one. This is my biggest issue with her. We have plenty of other characters that are way more sincere than Shallan and yet she is the incarnation of divine’s honesty. Shallan simply isn't suited for this role.

 
This reads as strawman argument to me. Where is it stated that this is a requirement for someone in Shallan's position?
 
 
 

As for her as Miss Cleverboots, sometimes I found her pretty funny. It’s like she doesn’t know when to stop. The praise she gets for it…isn’t it more along the lines of “oh you cheeky little rapscallion, you’re a bold one for a little girl,” rather than “wow, you are so clever and smart?” Maybe its a bit of both, especially since she’s a Lighteyes. I really loved when Kaladin called her out on it in the chasms, though.

 
Heh. Though Shallan in the chasms was certainly not being her normal self - the way I see it, she was very nervous about the impending doom of the highstorm and also being around Kaladin (trained soldier who is much bigger than her who also hates lighteyes) which is why her wit went into overdrive. She uses humour for multiple reasons: a coping mechanism, to help cheer up / encourage others, to relieve tension etc. I'm pretty sure part of her humour in that scene was intended to be "gallows humour" and the joke about the axe and getting "ahead" was lampshading it.

 

Regarding how others see her wit, yeah I see it pretty similarly. In tWoK the sailors enjoyed her wit but Jasnah took a more critical approach and encouraged Shallan to sharpen her wit (to put more thought behind it rather than going for the "easy" option). In WoR, the deserters and Tyn enjoyed her wit though there was only brief references to it. Adolin and Selabrial made tiny references to her wit but for them it's more she's a breath of fresh air in staid court politics. Kaladin wasn't exactly complimentary but I think he was won over in the end

 

One interesting thing about her sense of humour is that she uses a lot of self-deprecating humour, particularly in WoR. I think this ties into her not having a particularly positive opinion of herself.

[Aleksiel]

This last statement reads as hyperbole to me - praise for her wit is rare, considering the size of the books, and it's mostly from minor characters.

 

Read this any way you want. It happened on several occasions and I thought she deserved none in all of them, so any praise of her wit was too much.

 

 

 

This also reads as hyperbole to me. Consider that in tWoK Shallan figured out Jasnah's secret and forced her to admit it. WoR was as much about Shallan casting off the shackles that were holding her back as re-gaining her Radiant powers. I found a lot of what she did to be logical extensions of previous skills.

 

Just because you found it to be ‘logical extension’ doesn't mean I did too. We’re two completely different people.

 

What has Shallan managed to do so far: became a ward, solved the mystery with Jasnah’s soulcaster, convinced slaver and deserters to join her, conned a conwoman, infiltrated the Ghostbloods, Amaram’s house and Taln’s chamber, found a way to deal with Sadeas, solved the mysteries of the Shattered Plains, opened the Gate.

 

How did she manage almost all of them? With Lightweaving. Her story would be non-existing if not for it. Dalinar’d still have a story, Kal’s surgebinding didn't really solve his problems, but Shallan Lightweaves and moves on to the next task. She supposedly forgot all she knew about it as a child, didn't even remember it for most of WoR, but she somehow managed to look like a queen and create noises (the sound of dying people screaming) for the deserters. After that, she is again incapable of such use of her powers. I generally enjoyed the scene but it was too soon and too much.

 

 

This reads as strawman argument to me. Where is it stated that this is a requirement for someone in Shallan's position?

 

I’m curious why you start your responds to my post with ‘this reads to me’. It's not a 'strawman argument', because I wasn't arguing, so there was no misinterpreting anyone's arguments. I'd appreciate it if you don't label my statements in future, because it's completely unnecessary.

 

Shallan is supposed to represent the divine attribute of honesty as a Lightweaver according to the Ars Arcanum, but this isn't a word I’d pick for her. Moogle made a good point the AA might be incorrect, which is something I haven't considered. Admittedly, the AA not being credible will annoy me even more.

 

edit: adding the spoiler tag

Edited July 21, 2014 by Aleksiel

[firstRainbowRose she/her]

Okay, just going to pop up here to request we keep the conversation civil. Right now, there's nothing too harsh, but I could see a couple of these conversations becoming very biting in the way the comments are traded. Please try to be careful about how you word your thoughts.

[Guest]

 

 

 

Just because you found it to be ‘logical extension’ doesn't mean I did too. We’re two completely different people.

 

What has Shallan managed to do so far: became a ward, solved the mystery with Jasnah’s soulcaster, convinced slaver and deserters to join her, conned a conwoman, infiltrated the Ghostbloods, Amaram’s house and Taln’s chamber, found a way to deal with Sadeas, solved the mysteries of the Shattered Plains, opened the Gate.

 

How did she manage almost all of them? With Lightweaving. Her story would be non-existing if not for it. Dalinar’d still have a story, Kal’s surgebinding didn't really solve his problems, but Shallan Lightweaves and moves on to the next task. She supposedly forgot all she knew about it as a child, didn't even remember it for most of WoR, but she somehow managed to look like a queen and create noises (the sound of dying people screaming) for the deserters. After that, she is again incapable of such use of her powers. I generally enjoyed the scene but it was too soon and too much.

 

 

 

I understand what you mean Aleksiel.

 

I too have felt the same thing about Shallan. She does not seem to know failure, she uncovers too many mysteries and Lightweaving comes to her without too much work at all. It would have worked better if the team of scholars actually made a worthwhile contribution to help uncover of the oathgate, but no they were just overwhelmed.

 

However, I feel the same way about Kaladin as well, who had everything coming to him easily. His skill with the spear is supernatural, he masters surgebinding instantaneously, he slaughters a chasmfield on his own, he beasts Szeth easily despite Szeth having many more years of experience, he manages to equal Szeth in terms of swordsmanship when he had only a few lessons through which he sucked. I agree he had many set-backs and that makes his story plot more realistic, but in terms of fighting, the guy has yet to be defeated.

 

Basically, I guess I would like there two to be less successful. Shallan needs to get tangled in her multiple plots and make a few mistakes any inexperienced young girl would make. Kaladin needs to actually struggle a little to master his powers. It comes too easy for him, way to easy if I compare to the others, even when I compare to Shallan. I am not saying these two have not had challenges, but Kaladin being unbeatable and Shallan being super smart is getting old. I want variety.

 

Now for next book, we are getting Dalinar being over pious

[Curiosity he/him]

Thoughts in regards to Shallan's sudden jump in ability:

I think that it was in part fueled by her rejoining with Pattern. I think that the Nahel bond amplifies her natural abilities, but since the bond was suppressed, so were her abilities.

[Lightsworn Panda he/him]

Eh. Ever since she

bonded with Pattern,

she's become a much better and agreeable character. Not great, but agreeable.

[Chrono she/her]

To the best of my knowledge, everyone that doesn't like Shallan seems to think that she is pretty much a Mary Sue: she's perfect at everything she does, everything goes right for her, nothing bad happens, she doesn't fail at anything, characters instantly adore her. Based on those criteria alone, Shallan is most definitely not a Mary Sue. 

 

1. She's perfect at everything she does. 

Oh no, she most certainly is not. Similar to Kaladin, she can't even use one of her Surges effectively, and the other she can use with great skill, but only in a few areas (she can't make sounds, and she is restricted to drawing out almost all of her illusions, even a stone wall). One may argue that when she shipwrecked, she suddenly gained confidence, leadership abilities, etc. I argue that in every circumstance where she is in a position of leadership, she's basically imitating Jasnah. Her mannerisms, word choice, and even her thoughts mimic hers. There's even a scene where she specifically says she puts on her Jasnah face. And guess what? It doesn't work all the time. Tyn sees through it (she is a con woman, but she's trained to see past fronts like hers), and Vathah barely follows her orders for a good while. 

 

2. Everything goes right for her/nothing bad happens.

Again, no. One only needs to look at her backstory to see that her life has not been blossoms and cake. As for the first one, a lot of people point to Shallan being able to perform all of the missions of the Ghostbloods with no problems. Almost every mission, she's either nearly blown her cover or screwed up in some massive way and barely been able to save her hide. The only situation which she pulls off flawlessly is gaining Adolin's attraction, in my opinion. 

 

3. She doesn't fail at anything.

Shallan fails at a lot of things. She failed Soulcasting in a moment of dire need. She failed to become Jasnah's ward not once, but twice. However, she barely manages to scrape by more than she fails, which I admit can bother me sometimes. However, it certainly is not effortless or easy for her. And while she's succeeded in a lot of things, I believe she's failed in her most important goal: to find a healthy coping mechanism for her past. Even at the end of WoR, she hasn't managed to fully accept blame or responsibility for her actions: she blames Pattern for destroying her family and hates him. 

 

4. Everyone instantly adores her.

Kaladin hates her right off the bat (mainly because she's lighteyed, but that's his personal stigma), Jasnah seems to find her a waste of time at the beginning of WoK, and Vathah treats her like crap before he trusts her. Most characters who like her do so after they've known her for an extended period of time, except for Adolin, who likes her the second he sees her. 

 

Of course, most of these points can be contended. However, I find that Shallan is most definitely not a Mary Sue. Sure, I'd have liked it if she failed a little more, but she's certainly not a bad character.

[Aleksiel]

....

 

1.Oh, but she can Lightweave sound when convenient – see the deserters scene for reference. Then she became again incapable of creating sound. It felt like cheating.

 

I agree she was trying to imitate Jasnah, but she did it too well for someone who was trying for the first time such a thing. She got  quintuple win in a roll: the slavers, the deserters, Tyn (idk why you don’t count it as accomplishment, it was for me), Sebarial and the Ghostbloods. She even accomplished all assignments she was given by the latter.

 

2.All those bad things are in her past. Present day Shalan had several minor failures (like Vathah and Tyn not completely convinced by her) that caused her only inconveniences and some fright.

 

3.Shallan has no major fails in the present, she succeeds in all her main tasks.

 

4.I can’t speak for everyone else, but I think you misunderstood this argument. At least for me it’s not that people like her, she’s likable enough. It’s all the undeserved praise her quips get. This comes to personal preferences and I speak only for myself when I say I found the scenes like when she was buying books in Kharbranth to be extremely annoying because of her behavior. Since such word games and the likes make a big deal of Shallan’s interactions and I do not enjoy them for the most part, naturally this reflects in a negative way on my overall opinion on her character.

 

I'd like to add two more things that aren't really on Shallan, but add to my opinion on her nonetheless:

 

I didn't like we didn't see the real beginning of her story before her mother's death. I understand this fits her character, but that doesn't mean I liked it. I felt an important part of her past wasn't revealed in her own book and that was a let down for me.

 

And I was disappointed she didn't reveal the truth of her mother's death in the chasms with Kaladin. By the time she remembered, it no longer triggered much of an emotional response from me - it was already obvious and my interest was focused on other things. The scene felt anti-climatic.

[Savanorn he/him]

To the best of my knowledge, everyone that doesn't like Shallan seems to think that she is pretty much a Mary Sue: she's perfect at everything she does, everything goes right for her, nothing bad happens, she doesn't fail at anything, characters instantly adore her. Based on those criteria alone, Shallan is most definitely not a Mary Sue. 

 

1. She's perfect at everything she does. 

Oh no, she most certainly is not. Similar to Kaladin, she can't even use one of her Surges effectively, and the other she can use with great skill, but only in a few areas (she can't make sounds, and she is restricted to drawing out almost all of her illusions, even a stone wall). One may argue that when she shipwrecked, she suddenly gained confidence, leadership abilities, etc. I argue that in every circumstance where she is in a position of leadership, she's basically imitating Jasnah. Her mannerisms, word choice, and even her thoughts mimic hers. There's even a scene where she specifically says she puts on her Jasnah face. And guess what? It doesn't work all the time. Tyn sees through it (she is a con woman, but she's trained to see past fronts like hers), and Vathah barely follows her orders for a good while. 

 

2. Everything goes right for her/nothing bad happens.

Again, no. One only needs to look at her backstory to see that her life has not been blossoms and cake. As for the first one, a lot of people point to Shallan being able to perform all of the missions of the Ghostbloods with no problems. Almost every mission, she's either nearly blown her cover or screwed up in some massive way and barely been able to save her hide. The only situation which she pulls off flawlessly is gaining Adolin's attraction, in my opinion. 

 

3. She doesn't fail at anything.

Shallan fails at a lot of things. She failed Soulcasting in a moment of dire need. She failed to become Jasnah's ward not once, but twice. However, she barely manages to scrape by more than she fails, which I admit can bother me sometimes. However, it certainly is not effortless or easy for her. And while she's succeeded in a lot of things, I believe she's failed in her most important goal: to find a healthy coping mechanism for her past. Even at the end of WoR, she hasn't managed to fully accept blame or responsibility for her actions: she blames Pattern for destroying her family and hates him. 

 

4. Everyone instantly adores her.

Kaladin hates her right off the bat (mainly because she's lighteyed, but that's his personal stigma), Jasnah seems to find her a waste of time at the beginning of WoK, and Vathah treats her like crap before he trusts her. Most characters who like her do so after they've known her for an extended period of time, except for Adolin, who likes her the second he sees her. 

 

Of course, most of these points can be contended. However, I find that Shallan is most definitely not a Mary Sue. Sure, I'd have liked it if she failed a little more, but she's certainly not a bad character.

 

Good evening, 

 

I debated a little with myself on whether I'd answer this, but I felt that I should even ahead of a backlogue of excellent other posters I owe a reply to. 

 

Firstly, Mary Sue or not? Well, there's not really a hard and fast rule here...and I don't particularly think Shallan is one (as I said, I'm in the moderate camp) but the traditional line is that it depends on the writing, and this is where personal preference comes in. In her defence, it's hard to have a character who's actually good at a thing, especially many things or very good, without someone saying Mary Sue. That said, I don't think your points refute the Mary Sue argument. . . especially as a lot of people feel that WoR Shallan is worse than WoK Shallan, for precisely the reason that in WoK Shallan had to fight a lot for progress. 

 

Without further ado....

 

EDIT: PLEASE NOTE. I REPEAT A LOT OF WHAT ALEK SAYS, AS HE WROTE HIS POST WHILE I MAS REPLYING. 

 

 

1. In the space of what is a couple of months, at most, she is able to pick up and apply skills that should take years to master.  In a way, the fact that she is imitating Jasnah makes it worse as she is able to mimic someone to such a high degree based on observation and a handful a tips alone. Sure, if Shallan was a trained assassin, actor, spy, or something to this effect it would be easy to swallow...but she's an inexperienced scion of a minor house whose main pursuits are drawing and self-guided scholarship with notably little practical application. Vathah doesn't trust her, he doesn't not see through her. 

 

2. Tragic backstory is actually generally a Mary Suish trait, indeed, dead or damaged family doubly so. "Nearly" and "Almost" are the key words here. I know, if she had failed the Ghostbloods they probably would have killed her...but she actually does such a good job she amazes everyone. I know, she takes risks and they pay off, I know, she's a set of fresh eyes, all that, but I can see the other side as well. When she's not out-spying spies, she's out-scholaring scholars. 

 

3. I think you are confusing 'doesn't fail at things' for 'does things easily.' Shallan does struggle, to varying degrees, but she rarely outright fails at...anything in WoR. I'd actually say her failures (such as the second soulcasting) are actually more notable than her successes (most of the rest.) But, as I said in the intro, it's hard to have a competent character who wins a lot. 

 

4. As far as this is concerned, I think it is not that everyone likes Shallan...it is that everyone speaks well of her. A wide range of people complement her wit, her looks, her character. For a reader it can get grating.  

 

 

As I said, I felt this needed to be replied to. Others may choose to as well, but I'm mainly trying to clarify the arguments against Shallan and note that they don't seem to be what you think they are...unless I'm mistaken which is always possible. 

 

Good evening. 

Edited July 23, 2014 by Savanorn

[kari-no-sugata]

I've spent a while going through WoR to cover one particular aspect of her growth, to help argue that it's pretty natural.

Lightweaving. I chose this since it's less subjective than something like 'confidence'.

• Chapter 6, on ship - turns the deck green unintentionally - prompted by Pattern.
• Chapter 7, during attack - with prompt from old memory, sucks in Stormlight and shapes it into something vaguely humanoid. Enough to distract the attackers
• Chapter 15, with Tvlakv the slaver - unintentionally uses Stormlight to make her clothes look better. Is able to make it fade.
• Chapter 17, manages to consciously breathe in Stormlight for the first time. Tries to do Lightweaving but fails. Notices that the Stormlight is healing her.
• Chapter 20, with deserters - makes herself look like a queen, probably using the drawings she did earlier in the day as a reference. Fails to win over Vathah and he orders her captured but the others don't obey and instead run off to help. Seems clear that holding Stormlight helps propel her to action and feel more confident - the more the better. Not clear if she had any effect on sounds - the battle could still be heard after her Stormlight ran out.
• Chapter 34, when Tyn attacks her she creates a brief diversion - the diversion worked but actual Lightweaving was poor. Shallan does not yet know how to reliably form images.
• Chapter 36, while on the way to the king, Shallan sketches a specific vision of herself as someone strong enough to face Dalinar and co. Doesn't attempt actual Lightweaving.
• Chapter 38, while with the Highprinces creates and older better looking version of herself, presumably based on the sketch she does in chapter 36. Oddly, we don't specifically see when to started/ended the Lightweaving - only Sebarial's comment later suggests that she was.
• Chapter 42, sketches "Veil" and immediately uses Lightweaving from it to create her disguise. This is the first time we see a direct connection between her drawings and Lightweaving and also first time we see her creating something different rather than just enhanced. Shallan was a bit surprised it worked and it had a small defect on her nose.
• Chapter 43, sketches a wall and uses Lightweaving of that to hide herself from Iyatil.
• Chapter 47, attempts to change her hair colour with Lighteaving only using a mental image - fails. Sketches herself and this time it works. Pattern doesn't know why she needs to draw the images - it shouldn't be a requirement. Tries to make the Lightweaving vanish deliberately and fails. Sketches Sebarial from a Memory and creates fully realistic but entirely static Lightweaving of him. Figures out she can suck the Stormlight back in while touching the Lightweaving.
• Chapter 52, Shallan has determined via testing that her sketches are useful for Lightweaving for at least half a day and over a day tends to fail. She infiltrates Amaram's area with a messenger boy disguise then as a maid. Creates a Lightweaving of Amaram with Pattern providing audio.
• Chapter 54, visits Ghostbloods as Veil. Disguises herself as a rock to hide from them.
• Chapter 60, creates image of how she thinks she would be without lies - doesn't need sketch because she feels she knows it so well. Tries for hour to make sound work - fails. Finds out that if she separates too far from an image that it weakens and that Pattern's proximity helps, that she can transfer Stormlight to Pattern to keep the image sharp and that she can attach an image to move with Pattern, though not realistically - so she starts to think about solving that.
• Chapter 63, makes a shed appear larger than it is to hide herself for hours. Attaches a Lightweaving of Veil to Pattern, which has an animation sequence - though it has a fixed pattern. Dons Veil disguise. Uses quick removal and re-application of disguise to get past guards without Iyatil noticing. Creates ardent disguise from a quick sketch.
• Chapter 64, turns herself entirely black to hide from Amaram - she didn't have time to create a false wall. Dons Veil disguise again on returning to Iyatil.
• Chapter 72, while turning herself black to hide creates remote image of herself then Kaladin to distract the chasamfiend.
• Chapter 78, Lightweaves small image of Jasnah from recent sketch for Dalinar.
• Chapter 88, at Pattern's forcing Shallan makes Lightweaving of when her mother died.

Phew. Long list.

 

It would be very interesting to know if Shallan did use her Transformation Surge on the deserters - or herself, since I find the "coldness of clarity" mode to be suspicious, among other things. It may be that Shallan can do something a bit similar to emotional Allomancy and can even do it on herself.

 

Looking through the list above, the thing that stands out to me is that much of it is "more of the same" or incremental improvement. For example, her unintentional Lightweaving with Tvlakv is repeated with the deserters and Highprinces - she's doing something she knows she can already do, though more skilfully each time. When she distracts Tyn with a light projection it does its job (she just needed a few seconds) but from a skill point of view it's not much better than what she did on the ship. The big breakthrough is realising how closely her Lightweaving ties into her drawing, though she had been doing it for a while. It's interesting that she "shouldn't" need to sketch first - I guess that's something she'll have to figure out in later books since it's quite a big limitation.

 

I do feel that there is a slight disconnect when she creates Veil - I think this more a matter of perception since from a skill point of view it is not really "new", just a variation. What feels new is the direct connection between her drawings and Lightweaving - not direct in the sense of immediacy but making practical usage of Lightweaving. Later on we see that her drawings are good for Lightweavings for up to a day so her previous successes and failures make more sense - the connection between her drawings and Lightweaving was already there but it just wasn't obvious until later.

 

I think it's right that her failures with Lightweaving all come when she is practising - apart from the first 3 items in the list above the things she does "in the field" are all things she's done before or something similar before. It would be too much to say that they're all tried and tested techniques when used in the field but they're not far off. Maybe creating the wall to hide from Iyatil is the biggest leap of faith but since her first Lightweaving in the book was abstract (green colour) it's not surprising that it works. I like it that in item 14 that her progress in the end comes from discovering a limitation and trying to work around that limitation. It does feel a bit too easy that she can stick Stormlight into Pattern on the first try though.

 

On the topic of failure, maybe her various failings with Lightweaving don't stick (boom boom) in the memory so well since they're all abstract. If Kaladin fails a particular Surge usage it tends to be more visceral.

 

Overall, the actual technical skill in Shallan's Lightweaving to date doesn't seem that high, except perhaps for the animated version of Veil. It's more like she's taking some basic magic skills and managing to accomplish a lot with them by using them cleverly. It would be interesting to know if she has surpassed her childhood self overall yet, in Lightweaving.

[Chrono she/her]

Good evening, 

 

I debated a little with myself on whether I'd answer this, but I felt that I should even ahead of a backlogue of excellent other posters I owe a reply to. 

 

Firstly, Mary Sue or not? Well, there's not really a hard and fast rule here...and I don't particularly think Shallan is one (as I said, I'm in the moderate camp) but the traditional line is that it depends on the writing, and this is where personal preference comes in. In her defence, it's hard to have a character who's actually good at a thing, especially many things or very good, without someone saying Mary Sue. That said, I don't think your points refute the Mary Sue argument. . . especially as a lot of people feel that WoR Shallan is worse than WoK Shallan, for precisely the reason that in WoK Shallan had to fight a lot for progress. 

 

Without further ado....

 

EDIT: PLEASE NOTE. I REPEAT A LOT OF WHAT ALEK SAYS, AS HE WROTE HIS POST WHILE I MAS REPLYING. 

 

 

1. In the space of what is a couple of months, at most, she is able to pick up and apply skills that should take years to master.  In a way, the fact that she is imitating Jasnah makes it worse as she is able to mimic someone to such a high degree based on observation and a handful a tips alone. Sure, if Shallan was a trained assassin, actor, spy, or something to this effect it would be easy to swallow...but she's an inexperienced scion of a minor house whose main pursuits are drawing and self-guided scholarship with notably little practical application. Vathah doesn't trust her, he doesn't not see through her. 

 

2. Tragic backstory is actually generally a Mary Suish trait, indeed, dead or damaged family doubly so. "Nearly" and "Almost" are the key words here. I know, if she had failed the Ghostbloods they probably would have killed her...but she actually does such a good job she amazes everyone. I know, she takes risks and they pay off, I know, she's a set of fresh eyes, all that, but I can see the other side as well. When she's not out-spying spies, she's out-scholaring scholars. 

 

3. I think you are confusing 'doesn't fail at things' for 'does things easily.' Shallan does struggle, to varying degrees, but she rarely outright fails at...anything in WoR. I'd actually say her failures (such as the second soulcasting) are actually more notable than her successes (most of the rest.) But, as I said in the intro, it's hard to have a competent character who wins a lot. 

 

4. As far as this is concerned, I think it is not that everyone likes Shallan...it is that everyone speaks well of her. A wide range of people complement her wit, her looks, her character. For a reader it can get grating.  

 

 

As I said, I felt this needed to be replied to. Others may choose to as well, but I'm mainly trying to clarify the arguments against Shallan and note that they don't seem to be what you think they are...unless I'm mistaken which is always possible. 

 

Good evening. 

 

Thanks for responding! You make awesome points, and I agree with you that a lot of people when they see a character never fail instantly scream "Mary Sue!" My post was intended to show that this is not so with Shallan. You make very good arguments at portraying the other side. I figure a response is in order, just for the sake of defending my points.

 

1. Shallan has been with Jasnah for months now. She's been able to study and form opinions on her in a way that very few people can, because she's been so close to her and knows her fairly well. Shallan's main skill seems to be with Lightweaving -- crafting lies, if you will. She's excelled at this since childhood, as vague hints from Pattern suggest. Imitation is a form of deceit, especially in her case. If I knew a person for a few months, especially if I spent time exclusively with them every day, learning from them, I could at least impersonate them. Sure, I might not be accurate, but I'd be close enough to be humorous.

 

2. Tragic backstory can be a Mary Sue trait, but I believe that it was masterfully done in the book. Also, in every single one of her missions, she mainly accomplishes everything she can through Lightweaving. That's her only trick that she can really do, besides impersonation and basic distraction techniques. Main thing that comes to my mind is Amaram: if she hadn't lightweaved herself to look like the servant then him, there would be no way that she could carry it out. She uses it like a crutch, and I believe it will seriously hamper her skills. Lightweaving is very applicable, but when you are restricted to sketching out everything you Lightweave, that can be a huge limitation. It's a miracle (or author's saving throw) that she wasn't caught already. 

Almost is a very big distinction. However, I would be complaining much more if she suddenly could do everything without Lightweaving or fumbling in some way.

 

3. This is very much an opinion point. I see Shallan as a failure for not being able to even acknowledge the truth about her past and living a lie for so long. Others see her as someone who wins at everything too easily. I agree that it is very hard to have a competent character who wins a lot. However, Shallan has skills that other people don't. She has resources (Pattern, Jasnah's notes) that other people don't. She's got a massive headstart on all of them with those two resources alone. 

 

4. I admit, this can grate on nerves significantly. However, I honestly didn't notice this on any of my readthroughs, and most compliments seem to focus on her awesome drawing ability, which is actually a spectacular thing.

 

Address and rip apart as needed.

[Guest]

I'll respond briefly by a few toughs of my own.

 

1. Yes she masters many abilities in a short lapse of time. It is annoying, but the same could be said about Kal who masters BOTH his surges in a few weeks. A couple of trainings down in the chasm and he is at Szeth's level who had years to practice. With Shallan, at least, Brandon had the decency to make her fail at Soulcasting. As for her other abilities, I felt she was more on the verge of panic most of the time and got through by seer luck. The Ghostbloods? They should have eaten her alive, in fact, they did, but she got lucky which made her appear skillful.

 

2. Her missions nearly all failed. As I said, she was lucky most of the time, just like Kaladin is lucky most of the time. Adolin? Again, luck. She woes him with a joke about him pooping in his armor, on purpose, during battle. Nearly all other young men would have been completely turned down,  humiliated and horrified by this. Turns out Adolin likes a good banter and is not afraid of looking silly. She could not have known this in advance. She was lucky. Wasn't Mr T looking for people who were too lucky? Who survived against all odds? Could it be all Radiants are inherently lucky?

 

As for her tragic past, all Radiants have one. You need to have one to become a Radiant. Not everyone can be given such great powers, you need to prove your capable of embracing your order's attribute at all times, no matter what happens. Shallan survived her tragic childhood by developing her creativity and by creating lies for her brothers. I could never read that as Mary Sue.... I read it as this is how a Radiant is born.

 

However, I was disturbed by the relative easiness with which she solved the mystery of the oathgate. It seemed too much of a task to be accomplish by one person only. I would have enjoy this plot better if some other character had actually made a significant contribution.

 

3. I agree we have not seen many failure on her parts in WoR. She mainly succeeded at everything she tried, much like Kaladin for that matter. I for one am wishing to see a more "human" Shallan in the next book, ie one that makes mistakes, real ones.

 

4. I didn't get that everyone likes her on the first day. They are curious about her, but like her? Dalinar is suspicious of her and tolerates her only because Adolin seems fond of her. Navani does not want to have anything to do with her for weeks as she blames her for Jasnah. In the end, however, mother hen decides to be put amongst her chicks. I liked that. It was cute. Sebrarial is a strange one, known to gather strays and dating a darkeyed woman. He likes her because she is refreshing and clever, something he appreciates. Kaladin outright hates her and needs to be trap in a chasm with her to start seeing her under a better light. Adolin, yes Adolin likes her right away. She is cute and she made a joke about his hair, a sensitive subject as Adolin has been commenting on hair in WoK stating how he fond it stupid everyone desired dark hair so badly. She made him laugh on their first date, so yeah Adolin is quite under the charm, but he is pretty much the only one.

[Savanorn he/him]

Thanks for responding! You make awesome points, and I agree with you that a lot of people when they see a character never fail instantly scream "Mary Sue!" My post was intended to show that this is not so with Shallan. You make very good arguments at portraying the other side. I figure a response is in order, just for the sake of defending my points.

 

1. Shallan has been with Jasnah for months now. She's been able to study and form opinions on her in a way that very few people can, because she's been so close to her and knows her fairly well. Shallan's main skill seems to be with Lightweaving -- crafting lies, if you will. She's excelled at this since childhood, as vague hints from Pattern suggest. Imitation is a form of deceit, especially in her case. If I knew a person for a few months, especially if I spent time exclusively with them every day, learning from them, I could at least impersonate them. Sure, I might not be accurate, but I'd be close enough to be humorous.

 

2. Tragic backstory can be a Mary Sue trait, but I believe that it was masterfully done in the book. Also, in every single one of her missions, she mainly accomplishes everything she can through Lightweaving. That's her only trick that she can really do, besides impersonation and basic distraction techniques. Main thing that comes to my mind is Amaram: if she hadn't lightweaved herself to look like the servant then him, there would be no way that she could carry it out. She uses it like a crutch, and I believe it will seriously hamper her skills. Lightweaving is very applicable, but when you are restricted to sketching out everything you Lightweave, that can be a huge limitation. It's a miracle (or author's saving throw) that she wasn't caught already. 

Almost is a very big distinction. However, I would be complaining much more if she suddenly could do everything without Lightweaving or fumbling in some way.

 

3. This is very much an opinion point. I see Shallan as a failure for not being able to even acknowledge the truth about her past and living a lie for so long. Others see her as someone who wins at everything too easily. I agree that it is very hard to have a competent character who wins a lot. However, Shallan has skills that other people don't. She has resources (Pattern, Jasnah's notes) that other people don't. She's got a massive headstart on all of them with those two resources alone. 

 

4. I admit, this can grate on nerves significantly. However, I honestly didn't notice this on any of my readthroughs, and most compliments seem to focus on her awesome drawing ability, which is actually a spectacular thing.

 

Address and rip apart as needed.

 

 

Good afternoon, 

 

Oh yes, I was more arguing the technicals. Anything can really be a Mary Sue, because Mary Sue is a broad range of negative classification, I don't think either of us are of the opinion she is one. For me, as with you I think, this is because of writing, but should you care to make the argument again or in another place, I think it is important to address the issues I previously did.

 

Basically, your overall argument is good, I just disputed some of the points.

 

That said, if we rephrase it into what some people don't like rather than indicators of Mary Suism it can be a little more accurate.  

 

 

1. But, that's the thing. Being able to do a humorous impression is one thing, you only really needs to skim the surface of that. Being able to step up and embody the core strength of another person, Jasnah's authority for instance, is another. Considering Shallan has little experience in this, and indeed at this stage has forgotten (or is just starting to remember) a great deal of what she once knew about lightweaving it seems a bit of a leap. It's the same thing with Tyn. 

It seems like Shallan picks up too much, too fast and needs only a single shot or less to get it right. If you want to argue the Radiant angle, this is fine as well...but as a Radiant she already gets outstanding visual memory and drawing skills.   

That said, I don't really mind this as much. I mean, Shallan was scared and fighting for her life. I liked this mini-arc about how giving people something to aspire to can make them better people. But, as I also said, I can see why it'd be grating.

 

2. We're of the same opinion then RE:Suism. I was more pointing out that of the two, a tragic backstory generally supports rather than opposes Suism.

That's a second argument that people put forward with Shallan though; that as a character she is defined too much by her powers. Of course, I think that's kind of the point. A Radiant Surge like Lightweaving, as well as a Spren, can make up for an incredible difference is skills, talents or experience.

I think the big problem is that Shallan's character is tied to her surges and Radiant gifts more closely, than, say, Kaladin. We see Kaladin win over Hobber by saving his life, we see him use a pretty straightforward plot to harvest reeds and gather antiseptic...to get spheres to buy stew and win the Bridge over to him, Syl helps (arguably immensely) but it doesn't feel like it...whereas Shallan has Pattern tell her she's being followed and lightweaves a wall.

She lightweaves a range of disguises and breaks in to Amaram's, then uses Memory to gather intel and Pattern to get out of it.

Now, I don't really mind this much...and I don't think Kaladin and Shallan are that comparable (different orders, different focuses, different kind of characters) but it's kinda nice to see Shallan as a counter to Kaladin; active, useful intelligent spren as opposed to moral compass spren, free use of powers to gain status and achieve goals as opposed to Kaladin restricting his usage and actively avoiding using it in public. But, as I said, I can see why this'd be annoying. 

But, I agree. Had Shallan easily done everything it would be worse. It would have been nice to see her struggle a little more, or outright fail and suffer setbacks.  

 

3. It's definitely an opinion-heavy point. But I'd say that this is probably where it is also the most realistic failure that Shallan has. It's why she's cracked, not broken. Shallan deals with it in the only way she can; by not engaging. I'm not sure it's even really a failure though. I do agree that Shallan has some immense resources that no one else has. Especially with Pattern, as for instance,  pre-Dalinar no one could even translate Dawnchant. 

 

4. I noticed it more on the second reading, since I read Way of Kings -> Elantris -> Mistborn -> Warbreaker -> WoR. I didn't remember much about Dalinar, Adolin, Shallan or Kaladin by the time of WoR, 

That said, I know that second readings are generally more critical, and I also know that some people probably would have caught on or realised it more. I know by the end of WoR it did irk me. 

I think the drawing is impressive no matter what, especially as she can make such high quality drawings so quickly, the compliments there are valid. I think wit is the main other thing she gets, I agree on this much less. 

 

 

Thank you, well argued, and good afternoon. 

[Chrono she/her]

So basically, we're pretty much on the same page. Always nice to know. Well argued, and good afternoon to you as well. 

[Quiver he/him]

'Love' is a bit of a strong word; I enjoy the character, and Shallan was my favourite plot line in Way of Kings. I admit, my interest in her kind of dived a little bit with Words of Radance, because I felt like she was overly successful, particularly in comparison to Kaladin in WoK... but I suppose that's person preference.

 

I have to admit though, I am fascinated at seeing how the whole Veil/Shallan thing works out. I love questions of identity, duality etcetera, and I admit; I'd be totally on-board with it if Shallan ended up completing her 'apprenticeship' under the Ghostbloods and became an antagonist. I don't think it will happen... but I imagine there will be some conflict between who Shallan is and the face she puts on, whether that is in front of the Radiants, the Ghostbloods, or both. 

[Pringles he/him]

She's cool, *even* though she killed her parents. She's had (in my mind) the most interesting journey of all the characters. Also, I didn't expect to root for her and Adolin's relationship (even though I hate romance), and she has the two best characters in the book as friends (Pattern and Stick).

[Voidus]

She's cool, *even* though she killed her parents. She's had (in my mind) the most interesting journey of all the characters. Also, I didn't expect to root for her and Adolin's relationship (even though I hate romance), and she has the two best characters in the book as friends (Pattern and Stick).

This, she's the only character to have heard the wisdom of the almighty stick!!!

[cem he/him]

It seems rather questionable to me that she does not lose her Radiant powers because of her absolute denial of the Truths/Oaths she would later swear.

Kaladin lost his when he disobeyed his unsworn Third Oath for a much much shorter amount of time.

 

Otherwise, she is a well-written character, though not one of a personality type that I particularly enjoy. Her wittiness is probably keyed to Brandon's sense of humor, which pretty much every characters share but I do not. Thus, I find many of the character's reactions to her supposed wittiness to be unrealistic.

She does actually lose her powers.

 

Remember that Syl broke because she fed Kaladin Stormlight from a too tenuous link. Before that she just was more stupid than usual. And when Kaladin swore the Third Ideal, the bond and Syl were restored. The same happened with Pattern and Shallan, when her mother died, too. Then Cryptics manipulated her to speak a Truth, and Pattern came back a few days later.

[kadolin]

Didn't like her in The Way of Kings but I like her alot now after Words of Radiance. I might also like Pattern more than her lol.

 

Some of the story parts that made me like her more as follows

- Her flashbacks reveal much about her love for her family, how she tries so hard to pull her brothers out of the darkness while suffering herself. Well she didnt talk for quite some time for awhile but she snapped out of it and tried to make things better for her family.

 

-  Her chasm adventure where she revealed her abilities to save Kal even though she was out of harm's way and choose not to abandon him. 

[Hello]

She's innocent, that's for sure

[WaxnWayne]

Found her a grind at times in WOK but found her much more enjoyable in WOR but that could be down to me not enjoying the large section of mopey Kaladin. I know that both have probably been the two main characters so far but Adolin was my favourite, just because of his relationship with Kaladin like Arthur and Merlin in the Merlin TV show.

 

Back on Shallan

- I do enjoy her interactions with characters, Jasnah, Pattern, Adolin, etc.

- She can be a bit grating with some of humour/condescending comments towards people.

 

Has anyone else noticed that there is a scholarly/Morgan Freeman character in each series to kind of explain everything at the end?

[Hearthebeard]

Here's my deal with Shallan. I don't get too enamored with her as a character, she's somewhat self-absorbed but not in a way that's written as a flaw to deepen her character but more in an aloof/naive the world is her playpen style. To me this doesn't jive with the tragedy in her past.

However, I love her chapters because she's an analyst. In her chapters we get details and revelations that the other characters simply walk past or would never think about. I think I have learned more about Roshar from Shallan's chapters than the rest combined. Which is fantastic, because I always read fantasy series for the world more than the characters.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Hearthebeard