discuss Awakening What-Ifs

[Duxredux he/him]

Had to related what-ifs that may be possible and I'm not sure yet on the scope of the ramifications.

What if Returned had a security phrase known to Endowment and anyone that she decided to divulge that information to?

What if Nightblood or Azure's sword had security phrases? What would or would not be possible? Did Shashara have more control over Nightblood as the Awakener, or did Nightblood operate about as we've always seen?

Thoughts?  If these are possible there could be some pretty terrifying reveals.

[alder24]

25 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Had to related what-ifs that may be possible and I'm not sure yet on the scope of the ramifications.

What if Returned had a security phrase known to Endowment and anyone that she decided to divulge that information to?

A security phrase for Returned? I don't think so. Why? How would it even work?

Endowment in some cases doesn't have a certain task in mind for Returned to perform when she is choosing who will Return, but she's looking for some things. She isn't good at understanding humans, likely because she isn't human herself (likely Sho Del, definitely not a dragon).

Spoiler

Trae

Previously, you've revealed that the mechanism that determines the Returned on Nalthis is a decision of a sapient entity... Is the determination by which the entity that selects the recipient of a Divine Breath to come back as a Returned predicated on that recipient fulfilling some purpose in the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

...Basically they are asking... "Why does the entity that picks who Returns, why did they pick who they did?" And, your question kind of implies there's, like, specific tasks to fulfill. I'm gonna say, there aren't specifics, but there are certain things this entity is looking for--

Trae

In the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. There are certain things that they are looking for. Now, sometimes-- let's just say this entity is not necessarily the most consistent of entities in the cosmere when it comes to making decisions like this. But there are certain things they are looking for.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Trae Cooper

In the past we deeply discussed the mechanism with which Breaths are decided to be doled out or endowed on Nalthis. And you said that there is an intellect that is doling them out, but that their intentions or that their goals are difficult to predict or nonstandard. And my question is: are they nonstandard because the base Vessel behind them does not have, at its core, a standard human psychology? 

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO! Good question. Excellent question. RAFO, I like the way you're theorizing. I have said before, that there are multiple nonhuman Vessels in the Cosmere. So, your theorizing perhaps is going to bear fruit. 

Did someone say "chulls"? No, it's not the chulls. There are no chulls that are holding Shards in the Cosmere. 

Footnote: The questioner is referring to this WoB.
JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

32 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

What if Nightblood or Azure's sword had security phrases? What would or would not be possible? Did Shashara have more control over Nightblood as the Awakener, or did Nightblood operate about as we've always seen?

I think there might be a one-use only security phrase. I personally believe, because of the way it was explained by Vasher in Warbreaker, that the creation of type 4 entities is similar to type 2 Lifeless. Firstly it requires a general command to Awaken them (which might include a security phrase) which grants them sentience, and then you insert the specific command like "destroy evil" which grants them personality. But this security phrase would be only used to insert the specific command, "destroy evil", and later it wouldn't work, because not even Susebron can break Nightblood's command, and if it was possible to use that phrase again, Vasher would do it, because he was with Shashara back then.

Warbreaker ch 51:

Quote

Nightblood should not be alive. And yet he was. [...] She had studied, experimented, practiced. And she’d done it. She’d learned to forge the Breath of a thousand people into a piece of steel, Awaken it to sentience, and give it a Command. That single Command took on immense power, providing a foundation for the personality of the object Awakened.

 

Spoiler

Storming Radiant

Can Susebron break Nightblood's commands?

Brandon Sanderson

Nope.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Susebron just isn't strong enough.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 17, 2019)

 

[Quantus he/him]

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

(likely Sho Del, definitely not a dragon).

 

What makes you discount dragon as a possibility?  

I agree that she doesnt seem to be the most understanding of people, but if she were Sho Dal or Dragon (either one) and she went and made a world, I would have expected Fain Life instead of a human population.  Though maybe she made it like a ant-farm, an outsider wanting to study them as pets.  

[alder24]

21 minutes ago, Quantus said:

What makes you discount dragon as a possibility?  

This:

Spoiler

Vetterlinj

Is there more than 1 dragon amongst the Shards? If so, how many are there?

Brandon Sanderson

Only 1 dragon right now as a Shard.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

And we know that is Koravellium Avast.

 

21 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I agree that she doesnt seem to be the most understanding of people, but if she were Sho Dal or Dragon (either one) and she went and made a world, I would have expected Fain Life instead of a human population.  Though maybe she made it like a ant-farm, an outsider wanting to study them as pets.  

We know Fainlife spreaded off Yolen, but we've never seen it for now (WoB). It could be very hard to create a Fainlife off-Yolen with the power of only 1 Shard - just like it was impossible for Ruin/Preservation to alone create Scadrial. Or the Fainlife is so invasive that them a full planet would be too dangerous. Their invasive nature might be opposed to Endowment Identity, preventing her from creating them (WoB). Or there is Fainlife on Nalthis, on some undiscovered continent. Or this particular Sho Del is intrigued by humans and that's why she created them. Too many options to choose from. 

[Quantus he/him]

14 minutes ago, alder24 said:

This:

  Hide contents

Vetterlinj

Is there more than 1 dragon amongst the Shards? If so, how many are there?

Brandon Sanderson

Only 1 dragon right now as a Shard.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

And we know that is Koravellium Avast.

Yup, that locks it. Cool, thanks.

14 minutes ago, alder24 said:

We know Fainlife spreaded off Yolen, but we've never seen it for now (WoB). It could be very hard to create a Fainlife off-Yolen with the power of only 1 Shard - just like it was impossible for Ruin/Preservation to alone create Scadrial. Or the Fainlife is so invasive that them a full planet would be too dangerous. Their invasive nature might be opposed to Endowment Identity, preventing her from creating them (WoB). Or there is Fainlife on Nalthis, on some undiscovered continent. Or this particular Sho Del is intrigued by humans and that's why she created them. Too many options to choose from. 

Damn, I was really getting excited by the idea that the Rosharan ecosystem is a variant Fainlife... 

[Spearguy]

2 hours ago, Duxredux said:

What if Returned had a security phrase known to Endowment and anyone that she decided to divulge that information to?

 

That doesn't seem to fit with Endowment's Intent, which is to give freely with no strings attached. BioChromatic breath is a reflection of that, once you give someone your breath it is their's truly and utterly 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

 

Quote

We know Fainlife spreaded off Yolen, but we've never seen it for now (WoB). It could be very hard to create a Fainlife off-Yolen with the power of only 1 Shard - just like it was impossible for Ruin/Preservation to alone create Scadrial. Or the Fainlife is so invasive that them a full planet would be too dangerous. Their invasive nature might be opposed to Endowment Identity, preventing her from creating them (WoB).

I think you're reading too much into its description as invasive. When you're talking about invasive in the context of ecology, it just means something foreign that harms the local ecosystem. You may be confusing invasive with parasytic, where an organism purposefully damages another organism for its own benefit on purpose. Invasive is just something that has so many advantages over the local ecosystem that it outcompetes everything else to dangerous levels. The only problem here would be if Endowment really cares about the local plants and doesn't want a Fainlife-only planet, or if she wants humans to be on Nalthis (since iirc Fainlife is dangerous to humans), and in that case it would be a choice not to create it. Just because they're detrimental to other types of ecosystems doesn't make them inherently evil or anything, which is what would have made it go against her Intent. In fact, for ecosystems that aren't very earth-like, like Roshar outside of Shinovar, Fainlife wouldn't be harmful.

Ruin and Preservation's Intents stop them from creating anything on their own, so they need to work together. Endowment's Intent has no such qualms, so she could create pretty much anything. The things impossible to her would be forcefully taking something from someone or greedily hoarding something.

Besides, we don't know that she created Nalthis and everything on it for sure, the only known Shard-made planet we know of so far is Scadrial. She could have just found a nice planet out of the way of the other Shards and decided to settle there, and humans happened to already be on it. Vasher's comment about Nalthis not being old enough to have fossils does cast some doubt on Nalthis having formed naturally, but not necessarily.

I had a quick look on the Arcanum for WoBs mentioning Fainlife, and nothing there suggests that Fainlife is hard for a Shard to create on their own.

Quote

Or there is Fainlife on Nalthis, on some undiscovered continent. Or this particular Sho Del is intrigued by humans and that's why she created them. Too many options to choose from. 

Again, humans could have predated Endowment's arrival, but that's also possible.  And Fainlife could totally exist on some random continent too.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Damn, I was really getting excited by the idea that the Rosharan ecosystem is a variant Fainlife... 

Well, I still think they can be related, but not the exact copy of fainlife, rather evolved one, cultivated, not so invasive, changed to live in harsher conditions. They might be evolved descendants of Fainlife or maybe Fainlife was a template for Adonalsium but he changed them a lot. 

 

1 minute ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Invasive is just something that has so many advantages over the local ecosystem that it outcompetes everything else to dangerous levels.

This's what I meant, that's how I interpreted this WoB. I think Fainlife was mentioned more than once to be invasive and deadly to humans in some way or something like that. 

8 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Just because they're detrimental to other types of ecosystems doesn't make them inherently evil or anything, which is what would have made it go against her Intent.

I thought that if Fain ecosystem was about spreading and taking as much as it can, this might be too far from Endowment's intent to create them. Just a wild thought, a single possible explanation among many many others I've listed. Evil has nothing to do with it.

10 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Besides, we don't know that she created Nalthis and everything on it for sure, the only known Shard-made planet we know of so far is Scadrial. She could have just found a nice planet out of the way of the other Shards and decided to settle there, and humans happened to already be on it. Vasher's comment about Nalthis not being old enough to have fossils does cast some doubt on Nalthis having formed naturally, but not necessarily.

We don't know for sure, but it might be the case. This WoB suggests it too:

Spoiler

Questioner

Is there like a Cosmere-significant reason why, on Scadrial, the Investiture is hereditary, but that that doesn't really seem to be the case on any of the other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes there is, but it has to do more with the fact that on Scadrial, human beings were directly created by Ruin and Preservation. And most of the Cosmere worlds you've seen don't have that same sort of aspect. It is the case on Nalthis, but it's not the case on Roshar, it's not the case on Taldain, it's not the case on Sel. And so because of that instance, that's how I'm kind of working, that changed the way people interact with magic directly. But there is some wiggle room there for me. But that's your answer, that's the actual... there's.. I'm not hiding anything there, there is wiggle room. What I'm saying is don't extrapolate that that has to happen every time that the Shards were directly involved in the creation...

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Well, I still think they can be related, but not the exact copy of fainlife, rather evolved one, cultivated, not so invasive, changed to live in harsher conditions. They might be evolved descendants of Fainlife or maybe Fainlife was a template for Adonalsium but he changed them a lot. 

The evolved/cultivated Fainlife could always have arrived at some point after the Shattering; I believe there was a thread talking about the liklihood of cremlings having descended from Fainlife 

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

I thought that if Fain ecosystem was about spreading and taking as much as it can, this might be too far from Endowment's intent to create them. Just a wild thought, a single possible explanation among many many others I've listed. Evil has nothing to do with it.

I meant evil as in opposed to her Intent, but you're right that it's not the right word to use here. And again, Fainlife may not be about taking over other lifeforms, but it just naturally happens to work in ways that kills other plants. There's no conscious intent for an entire ecosystem, which is what would make it oppose Endowment's Intent. Other than that, we see with Ruin that he can 'create' things if it will eventually lead to net destruction, so things that are seemingly impossible for Shards to do can be achieved, which is what I believe the case is here, if the Intent even opposes the action, which I doubt.

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

We don't know for sure, but it might be the case. This WoB suggests it too:

  Hide contents

Questioner

Is there like a Cosmere-significant reason why, on Scadrial, the Investiture is hereditary, but that that doesn't really seem to be the case on any of the other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes there is, but it has to do more with the fact that on Scadrial, human beings were directly created by Ruin and Preservation. And most of the Cosmere worlds you've seen don't have that same sort of aspect. It is the case on Nalthis, but it's not the case on Roshar, it's not the case on Taldain, it's not the case on Sel. And so because of that instance, that's how I'm kind of working, that changed the way people interact with magic directly. But there is some wiggle room there for me. But that's your answer, that's the actual... there's.. I'm not hiding anything there, there is wiggle room. What I'm saying is don't extrapolate that that has to happen every time that the Shards were directly involved in the creation...

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

 

I haven't seen that one, that does make it seem likely. To be honest I didn't even realise Nalthis could've been artificial until I read that timeline thread. 

[Quantus he/him]

57 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I haven't seen that one, that does make it seem likely. To be honest I didn't even realise Nalthis could've been artificial until I read that timeline thread. 

To be fair, the WOB strongly implies that Endowment created the Population of Nalthis, but she may not have created the whole planet as was the case with P&R making Scadrial.  She might have just settled a barren planet with no life (hence the lack of a fossil record).  I lean toward thinking that she populated an existing world, just because it simplifies the  whole question of why Scadrial's creation took two Shards and a bargain.  

[Duxredux he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

A security phrase for Returned? I don't think so. Why? How would it even work?

Same way it does for a Lifeless. You say the security phrase, give the Returned an order and then its compelled to obey. Perhaps not too different than the backdoor Frava suggested that Shai build into Ashravan's soul.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

I think there might be a one-use only security phrase. I personally believe, because of the way it was explained by Vasher in Warbreaker, that the creation of type 4 entities is similar to type 2 Lifeless. Firstly it requires a general command to Awaken them (which might include a security phrase) which grants them sentience, and then you insert the specific command like "destroy evil" which grants them personality. But this security phrase would be only used to insert the specific command, "destroy evil", and later it wouldn't work, because not even Susebron can break Nightblood's command, and if it was possible to use that phrase again, Vasher would do it, because he was with Shashara back then.

Obedience to a security phrase does not equate difficulty in breaking the Command. We don't know the full story of Vasher's falling out with his wife, and it's possible Shashara changed the security phrase without Vasher's knowledge. I could even see discovering that the security phrase had changed kicking off Shashara's death. As it is a lost security phrase is theoretical for Nightblood but not Azure's sword, so perhaps not a moot question, even in terms of ability in Command Breaking.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

24 minutes ago, Quantus said:

To be fair, the WOB strongly implies that Endowment created the Population of Nalthis, but she may not have created the whole planet as was the case with P&R making Scadrial.  She might have just settled a barren planet with no life (hence the lack of a fossil record).  I lean toward thinking that she populated an existing world, just because it simplifies the  whole question of why Scadrial's creation took two Shards and a bargain.  

You're totally right, she could have just created life on Nalthis instead of the whole planet herself. I don't think P&R's bargain is that complicated though. They decided for some reason to create a planet instead of settling on one somewhere, and because their Intents uniquely make them unable to create anything on their own, they had to work together to create Scadrial. The bargain came later, in regard to Humans. Preservation wasn't satisfied with life that wasn't very cognizant or sentient, and Ruin couldn't destroy everything. So, they made a deal: Preservation would give up a piece of himself to create sapient life, the humans, and that would result in Preservation's power becoming weaker than that of Ruin. After a little while, Ruin would then exploit this power imbalance to end everything, and the two would presumably start over or do something else. However, as soon as Preservation got to make humans, he double-crossed Ruin and trapped him, creating the Well, Mists, and Pits, and from there we go to the events of Era 1.

The fact that the two could have just chosen to settle somewhere or even go their separate ways but didn't has spawned off all sorts of theories, such as Ati and Leras being lovers or best friends or something of that ilk. That does seem to be the case, though eventually, their extremely opposing Intents seemed to have driven them apart, all the way to actively hating one another by the end of Era 1.

[alder24]

21 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Same way it does for a Lifeless. You say the security phrase, give the Returned an order and then its compelled to obey. Perhaps not too different than the backdoor Frava suggested that Shai build into Ashravan's soul.

There is a problem - Returned has a free will and can choose not to fulfill his purpose or that command. He can also choose not to Return - Lightsong was given a choice. The whole reason for his Return is shown to him after his death, and that's what he will see in his dreams later. Lifeless doesn't have a choice, nor does it have any predetermined purpose.

24 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Obedience to a security phrase does not equate difficulty in breaking the Command. We don't know the full story of Vasher's falling out with his wife, and it's possible Shashara changed the security phrase without Vasher's knowledge. I could even see discovering that the security phrase had changed kicking off Shashara's death. As it is a lost security phrase is theoretical for Nightblood but not Azure's sword, so perhaps not a moot question, even in terms of ability in Command Breaking.

A security phrase is to give a new Commend. Without the possibility to give any new Command, without the possibility to change existing Command, a security phrase can't work, as it can't do the only thing it was meant to do - and that's the case with Nightblood.. Everybody can give new Commands to Lifeless, if they know its security phrase, so identity isn't blocking them from doing that. Breaking Command is all about breaking through that security phrase in Lifeless. And because it can't be done with Nightblood, there is no way for him to be influenced by a security phrase after his command to destroy evil was given to him. 

I can't see it working the way you want it to work. Returned and type 4 entities aren't Lifeless - they have their own will and can make choices, or have such strong Command that it's impossible to break. Type 3 objects don't have any security phrase, so not everything in Awakening has to have a security phrase. 

[Argenti he/him]

4 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

The fact that the two could have just chosen to settle somewhere or even go their separate ways but didn't has spawned off all sorts of theories, such as Ati and Leras being lovers or best friends or something of that ilk. That does seem to be the case, though eventually, their extremely opposing Intents seemed to have driven them apart, all the way to actively hating one another by the end of Era 1.

I could have sworn it said they were brothers somewhere, but I checked the Coppermind, and nothing! They don't even look alike! I have no idea where I got that from.

[Duxredux he/him]

On 6/13/2023 at 3:47 PM, alder24 said:

There is a problem - Returned has a free will and can choose not to fulfill his purpose or that command. He can also choose not to Return - Lightsong was given a choice. The whole reason for his Return is shown to him after his death, and that's what he will see in his dreams later. Lifeless doesn't have a choice, nor does it have any predetermined purpose.

A security phrase is to give a new Commend. Without the possibility to give any new Command, without the possibility to change existing Command, a security phrase can't work, as it can't do the only thing it was meant to do - and that's the case with Nightblood.. Everybody can give new Commands to Lifeless, if they know its security phrase, so identity isn't blocking them from doing that. Breaking Command is all about breaking through that security phrase in Lifeless. And because it can't be done with Nightblood, there is no way for him to be influenced by a security phrase after his command to destroy evil was given to him. 

I can't see it working the way you want it to work. Returned and type 4 entities aren't Lifeless - they have their own will and can make choices, or have such strong Command that it's impossible to break. Type 3 objects don't have any security phrase, so not everything in Awakening has to have a security phrase. 

This makes sense logically, but I'm trying to think of supporting evidence in either direction that this is how security phrases fundamentally work. Do you have WoBs for some of these details? I didn't see many WoBs that deal with security phrases, and Awakening is a relatively new and nuanced Art, and one that has not progressed particularly fast because most Awakeners keep newly invented Command phrases to themselves. Not that I can think of specifics to support this what-if which is why I posted it as such rather than as a hypothesis.

It does make me wonder if extremely limited security phrases are possible for Type 3 entities (and we know that there are core phrases and delegated limited use phrases). Basically letting someone else activate the preprogrammed Command in the object, like Vasher's rope that responds to tapped sequences. Most people probably wouldn't trust others with something that valuable and any solo Awakener wouldn't bother because the Breaths are Identity-keyed to them, but there's a big gap between impossible and rarely done. Actually... there's that Awakened lock in TLM which seems too mundane to blow the Breaths for a Type 4 Awakening so it's probably a Type 3. The question then is whether that spoken password constitutes a security phrase, and if they've simply progressed security phrases to filter out passcodes given under duress. That makes sense to me as a logical extension of existing mechanics though it could just be a really cleverly worded Command. Though maaaybe that lock just has a Lifeless beetle that crawls around and moves the mechanism, but there's gotta be something that physically prevents someone from just cutting through the door, stamping a new door, or picking the lock with Rosite.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Duxredux
clarity

[alder24]

25 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

This makes sense logically, but I'm trying to think of supporting evidence in either direction that this is how security phrases fundamentally work. Do you have WoBs for some of these details? I didn't see many WoBs that deal with security phrases

I based in on Warbreaker. It's the way I understand it based on how it was explained in books.

 

32 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Actually... there's that Awakened lock in TLM which seems too mundane to blow the Breaths for a Type 4 Awakening so it's probably a Type 3. The question then is whether that spoken password constitutes a security phrase, and if they've simply progressed security phrases to filter out passcodes given under duress.

That's a good point. That password isn't a security phrase, but one might be used to set a new password. There might be a way to make a type 3 entity with a security phrase. Or that lock's visualization included a way to change a password only for a person owning/connected to this lock, which wouldn't require any security phrase.

[Duxredux he/him]

43 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I based in on Warbreaker. It's the way I understand it based on how it was explained in books.

 

That's a good point. That password isn't a security phrase, but one might be used to set a new password. There might be a way to make a type 3 entity with a security phrase. Or that lock's visualization included a way to change a password only for a person owning/connected to this lock, which wouldn't require any security phrase.

The only explanation we get on how security phrases work is a little bit of Vasher's thought process as he Awakens a squirrel and from Denth talking to Vivenna, and we know Denth lies to Vivenna about Awakening. Lightsong uses security phrases but he could have information kept from him as easily as Vivenna, though Llarimar wouldn't lie to him.

My reading on security phrases is that they are a backdoor given to the Breaths at the instant of the initial Awakening that is perhaps as fundamental as the initial Command of the Lifeless to "live at my Command and my word". The security phrases makes the Awakened entity impressionable to new Commands, nothing about forcibly breaking a previous Command. The difficulty of giving new orders for Vasher had no relation to the torture involving Breaths that Lightsong's priests did to the squirrel to break its Command and instill a new security phrase.

Basically I think we've made assumptions about security phrases and Brandon has enough wiggle room to do a lot with them. It's a what-if because even if Returned and Nightblood had security phrases, that would only ever be relevant if Endowment or another decided to divulge the information. It's of no general application. Awakened objects could end up serving pretty cool roles in city infrastructure, particularly if they could be utilized but not easily stolen. No saying that Nalthis would do this, but there's lots of reasons to trust someone with your Awakened stuff but not actually give them your Breaths. If a security phrase on a Type 4 entity let you iterate through different versions of a Command, that could be really valuable and could help them become more prevalent.