My favorite words in the cosmere vs my least favorite words in the cosmere.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

Forgive me as I am going to be paraphrasing here. 

Wax in flight vs Dumad:

"Suddenly his steel was gone" 

Wonderfully gripping and actually suspenseful.  Wax hundreds of feed in the air and now falling and needing to figure out how to get the steel to survive again.  

 

Kaladin in every fightscene:

"Then his stormlight ran out"

... and then he wins it anyway.  

 

What is the difference and why do I enjoy one vs the other?  Well magic made one possible to add suspense to a fun magic fueled fight.  The other is only there because without him running out we all know he is god who needs fear nothing but he still has nothing to fear because he is the poster child for stormlight and too valuable to die... 

I LOVE that nearly every system Brandon comes up with has the worlds economy and the magic availability tied together but there is something that is so much scarier and awesome about being leeched unexpectedly (even Lift vs Larkin) than simply writing the fight and then reverse engineering it so that the protagonist runs out at the perfect time for him to not look too op but still never be in danger of actually dying.  

[alder24]

43 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Kaladin in every fightscene:

"Then his stormlight ran out"

... and then he wins it anyway.  

What is the difference and why do I enjoy one vs the other?  Well magic made one possible to add suspense to a fun magic fueled fight.  The other is only there because without him running out we all know he is god who needs fear nothing but he still has nothing to fear because he is the poster child for stormlight and too valuable to die... 

For Kaladin the fight isn't about life or death, winning or losing, but about protecting people - in this field Kaladin was constantly failing. He failed Tien, Cenn, Dallet and his original squad, he failed so many in Bridge Four like Dunny, Maps, Jaks and others, slaves he tried to escape with, Singers he trained, Kholinar’s Wall Guard squad he was a part of - there is a whole list of people with which Kaladin constantly torture himself, especially when getting close to a new Ideal. And that's the struggle and battle Kaladin is facing - psychological one, not physical. In this battle Kaladin kept failing (in his own mind). And that is a perfect contrast to his unbelievable fighting skills - despite all of his powers, he can’t defeat his demons in his mind, he keeps failing where it is the most important to succeed. What does it matter what opponents will he defeat when there are more and more people close to him that died? That in his mind, he failed to protect, and descend further and further into the Darkness, that cannot be defeated with a Shardblade, nor Stormlight?

I understand what you are saying, for you fights lack tension, because you know Kaladin will always win. I'm not worried about Kaladin being killed by random Fused #123, but him finally surrendering in his mind. I know he won't die until the battle in his mind will be over, until he either surrenders to his demons and breaks, or finally defeats them fully. When this will happen, then I will fear for his life in every combat, but now I'm held in far greater tension, worrying about his mental state, tension that can't be delivered by even the best written fight sequence ever. And every physical fight where he loses another person close to him, might be the last one for Kaladin. 

SA is far more focused on psychological impacts on every individual character, with Oaths being literally their progression and therapy, rather than physical struggle with opponents on the battleground. Yes, having a fearsome opponent that actually poses a real threat to the character is cool, there are few in SA that Kaladin faced here and there, but even those fights are written from an internal perspective (more related to the psychological aspect of the fight) rather than physical. 

When Kaladin in WoK decided to go back and save Dalinar, it wasn't about Kaladin overcoming Parshendi and Eshonai in a fight, but Kaladin overcoming his own mental blockage, his fear that he will fail Bridge Four again, like he had failed the others. This battle was far more satisfying to see Kaladin win, than reading about him killing Parshendi #321.

Kaladin in the arena fight in WoR was a very cool, epic fight, but that again came mostly because he jumped in to protect Adolin, a noble, spoiled boy he almost hated and despised.

Kaladin fighting Szeth wasn't just about him defeating Szeth, from the very beginning it was clear this would happen, it was so satisfying to read because Kaladin made the right decision, saved Elhokar and embraced the third Ideal - winning another battle against the Darkness.

But in Kholinar in OB Kaladin failed, which hurt me immensely. Despite all his powers, Shardblade and Stormlight, he wasn't able to protect himself. But in his mind he failed to protect his Singer friends, his new Wall Guard squad, the king and his son and even Moash. That scene was a beautifully crafted failure.

And he falled again, unable to say the 4th Ideal in OB finale. And he failed again, in the fight against Amaram and Yelig-Nar. He was saved no by his skill, but by his friend, Rock, who broke rules of his people. Did Kaladin win against Amaram? Is that the win in your mind?

 

I got a bit overboard, I didn't have to write a whole essay at midnight, but it somehow happened. In conclusion, it's not during physical fights you should be worried, it's in physiological fights tension is rising. You could have both, it would be fantastic to have both, in some cases this is happening in SA, but SA works perfectly heavily relying on psychological struggle, not physical fights. A different kind of tension and suspense. But of course, you're free to have your own, different opinion - we all love Brandon's books for different reasons and all reasons are perfectly valid.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

For Kaladin the fight isn't about life or death, winning or losing, but about protecting people - in this field Kaladin was constantly failing. He failed Tien, Cenn, Dallet and his original squad, he failed so many in Bridge Four like Dunny, Maps, Jaks and others, slaves he tried to escape with, Singers he trained, Kholinar’s Wall Guard squad he was a part of - there is a whole list of people with which Kaladin constantly torture himself, especially when getting close to a new Ideal. And that's the struggle and battle Kaladin is facing - psychological one, not physical. In this battle Kaladin kept failing (in his own mind). And that is a perfect contrast to his unbelievable fighting skills - despite all of his powers, he can’t defeat his demons in his mind, he keeps failing where it is the most important to succeed. What does it matter what opponents will he defeat when there are more and more people close to him that died? That in his mind, he failed to protect, and descend further and further into the Darkness, that cannot be defeated with a Shardblade, nor Stormlight?

I understand what you are saying, for you fights lack tension, because you know Kaladin will always win. I'm not worried about Kaladin being killed by random Fused #123, but him finally surrendering in his mind. I know he won't die until the battle in his mind will be over, until he either surrenders to his demons and breaks, or finally defeats them fully. When this will happen, then I will fear for his life in every combat, but now I'm held in far greater tension, worrying about his mental state, tension that can't be delivered by even the best written fight sequence ever. And every physical fight where he loses another person close to him, might be the last one for Kaladin. 

SA is far more focused on psychological impacts on every individual character, with Oaths being literally their progression and therapy, rather than physical struggle with opponents on the battleground. Yes, having a fearsome opponent that actually poses a real threat to the character is cool, there are few in SA that Kaladin faced here and there, but even those fights are written from an internal perspective (more related to the psychological aspect of the fight) rather than physical. 

When Kaladin in WoK decided to go back and save Dalinar, it wasn't about Kaladin overcoming Parshendi and Eshonai in a fight, but Kaladin overcoming his own mental blockage, his fear that he will fail Bridge Four again, like he had failed the others. This battle was far more satisfying to see Kaladin win, than reading about him killing Parshendi #321.

Kaladin in the arena fight in WoR was a very cool, epic fight, but that again came mostly because he jumped in to protect Adolin, a noble, spoiled boy he almost hated and despised.

Kaladin fighting Szeth wasn't just about him defeating Szeth, from the very beginning it was clear this would happen, it was so satisfying to read because Kaladin made the right decision, saved Elhokar and embraced the third Ideal - winning another battle against the Darkness.

But in Kholinar in OB Kaladin failed, which hurt me immensely. Despite all his powers, Shardblade and Stormlight, he wasn't able to protect himself. But in his mind he failed to protect his Singer friends, his new Wall Guard squad, the king and his son and even Moash. That scene was a beautifully crafted failure.

And he falled again, unable to say the 4th Ideal in OB finale. And he failed again, in the fight against Amaram and Yelig-Nar. He was saved no by his skill, but by his friend, Rock, who broke rules of his people. Did Kaladin win against Amaram? Is that the win in your mind?

 

I got a bit overboard, I didn't have to write a whole essay at midnight, but it somehow happened. In conclusion, it's not during physical fights you should be worried, it's in physiological fights tension is rising. You could have both, it would be fantastic to have both, in some cases this is happening in SA, but SA works perfectly heavily relying on psychological struggle, not physical fights. A different kind of tension and suspense. But of course, you're free to have your own, different opinion - we all love Brandon's books for different reasons and all reasons are perfectly valid.

I appreciate that point of view.  The psychological battle is a good point. I haven't really read it and looked at it that way.  I am just a world building nut and read for the magic systems and their interactions.  I actually think that the oaths are a really cool weakness and when Kaladin pulled away from Syl in WoR the 3rd oath was epic and awesome.  

I've probably beat a dead horse with my opinions on stormlight as a it pertains to the magic system and the fact that I think its raw power is a negative for the cosmere... but getting leeched is cool... running out of stormlight lacks a lot.  When Vin burnt aluminum it was epic.  When pewter just runs out mid fight to add tension it isn't nearly as fun to read.  

You did point the psychological battles out and I appreciate that. I am not a feelings oriented person and the mental health crisis just has never really hit me before. 

I had a discussion with someone once that ended with them telling me I could choose to be happy and I flipped a switch that day and just chose to be happy.  Of course we all have bad days and good days... but keeping a change of clean fresh socks to swap out has always been a bit of a lifesaver for me.  Swap my socks out and be happy.  

After listening to Alcatraz vs evil librarians dramatized audio book I would say I am much more a grandpa Smedry more than an Alcatraz or Bastille.  Grandpa Smedry and his arriving late to everything is my cosmere spirit animal.  

 Anyways.  I will try to appreciate the battles in SA that aren't magically driven more.  

 

[Duxredux]

I second @alder24's post. My comments are regarding storytelling and stray towards a "how the sausage is made" type of explanation and is based on how I've heard Brandon talk about the books and his writing process, and unlike alder24, this one feels like an essay is coming on, so if you keep reading to the end, you have been warned. There will be a tl;dr at the bottom.

The Wax and Wayne books are a slightly different genre to the Stormlight Archive, despite both falling under fantasy. Wax's books are meant to be similar in feel to the pulp fiction genre, those stories being the ones that were bite-sized thrillers originally serially published in magazines back when Brandon was growing up, reading the genre, and trying to break in as a writer. Brandon pays homage to the original format in the book's newspaper clippings with the stories of Nicky Sauvage and Allomancer Jak. Brandon intentionally keeps the Wax books shorter because he need faster pacing for the genre, adding elements of thriller books that you sit down, ones that you read in one sitting as the tension pulls you to the end. This is why the books' word counts are only around 90,000 - 100,000. They are designed to have that kind of tension, and once the major conflict starts with the wedding party and Steris's kidnapping, the rest of the events in Alloy of Law span a few days at most. Most of the books fit this format, once the inciting event happens, the whole thing gets wrapped up in a matter of days. The Bands of Mourning is the exception with the additional travel time, and the tension overall dropping a bit as the characters themselves get a breather. There's real tension for the characters as Wax and Wayne are outnumbered or otherwise outgunned in nearly every fight they are in, of course as Wax takes heavy injuries, from getting blown up all the way to dying. Because the characters feel tension the reader feels tension. We're supposed to be worried that Wax is going to be shot or blown up - again - because the format of the story including length supports that in addition to Brandon not telling us up front how many books are left in the series. Incidentally, I generally enjoy the Wax and Wayne books and reread them far more than the Stormlight Archive in part because I often am in the mood for that kind of humorous romp than I am in a deep lore dive.

In contrast is the 400,000+ word count per book epic fantasy known as the Stormlight Archive, and we're just 40% through the story and we know it. Brandon wants his own, really his own, Wheel of Time that he wrote entirely himself before he bestows the RAFO on the next to take the reigns of behemoth epic fantasy as he was given the RAFO by Robert Jordan's wife and editor. We already know the characters that are planned to have viewpoints for the rest of the series. Sure he's had a posthumous viewpoint, but we're not worried that all those character are going to die before they get their book. In essence, because of the length of the story as a whole and the enormous length of each book, if Brandon were to keep the tension as high as he does for the Wax books, he would have readers burning out all over the place. He's also depicting a longterm war which means lots and lots of battles. It's not so much as each individual battle so much as it the long-term effects of war on a person, as Dalinar explains when he relieves Kaladin of active duty, and all of the reasons that alder24 said. In essence, by necessity of the booklength, this story must have clear signposted indicators of when we should be feeling high tension, which is usually at the Sanderlanche at the end - Kaladin returning to save Dalinar, fighting Szeth, fighting Amaram, and when he ultimately jumps off the tower in a suicide attempt (at the end when he can get away with killing a character and have the readers adjust to their absence between books, like Elhokar, Sadeas, and Amaram, whose deaths feel bigger than say, Ialai Sadeas). The rest of Kaladin's fights need to not have as much immediate tension because readers need to not burn out as fast as an actual wartime combatant, even though there still needs to be accurate depictions of the scrambling, regrouping, and general complications in any battle. Stormlight-based healing both before and after the fight reduce that tension - but raises the longterm tension of Kaladin building a dependency on Stormlight as he unconsciously uses it to try to self-medicate his depression and anxiety over his friends. Again, as alder24 noted.

And to finish with a lengthy conclusion, perhaps it's good to sit back and watch for the overarching conflicts rather than the small altercations in SA, because it's meant to be a long-form story. Honestly, I'm glad for all of the signposting that Brandon does in the Stormlight Archive, including when I need to be on edge, like listing which viewpoints we will get in each of the five parts to each book, or telling me ahead of time who the viewpoint characters will be so I can mentally set my expectations. I've tried to read the Wheel of Time on 4 separate attempts and I've bounced off every single time around books 7-9. This is in part because I'm trying to read them back to back so I can try to retain the plot lines in my head, in part because I'm not in the middle of the phenomenon that was the Wheel of Time when you had the rampant theory crafting and discussions - what we basically have on the 17th Shard. A lot of my friends have read Sanderson, so each new book gives us something to talk about and go over our favorite scenes, but I don't have that with Wheel of Time - either they have not read it or have read the whole thing and already know the answers to everything. Wheel of Time's pacing and story structure as it sits in its complete form just didn't work for me, and there isn't anything wrong with the books, but there is a necessary buy-in and commitment to this type of story that is a bigger ask than something like Alloy of Law. I guess this is also my suggestion to everyone who has loved every book of the Stormlight Archive and has been trying for years to get their friends to read it - give them a chance to absorb each book in its entirety before handing them the next one, unless of course they just immediately ask for the next installment. Try to give them a bit of the same discussion and theory crafting experience that you had when waiting 3 years between books, it will help them retain the important elements and can get a chance to discuss anything confusing (and if they are genuinely confused or missing something important and shouldn't have, be wise when you RAFO them). Yes, you want to show them Dalinar at the end of Oathbringer or Maya at the trial, and yes you want them to be up to speed so you can discuss everything with them, but 1.5 million words to read before you discuss it with them is a big ask (and discuss it beyond - oooh, wait until ___). Journey before destination, don't rush them to your favorite parts, let them enjoy the ride. I highly support and praise all the 17th Sharders who support and discuss with people who post their reactions in the various threads as they share their first reading experience. I'll get off my soap box now.

tl;dr from a storytelling design perspective, Mistborn Era 2 books need different tension in their fights compared to SA based on the length of each book and the promised length of the series.

[Spearguy]

I totally agree with alder24 as well, with Kaladin the point of the fight isn't to beat his opponent, its about protecting those he cares about. This is one of the best ways to balance a powerful character in a story, give them more to handle, another amazing example of this in pop culture is superman, when superman is fighting it's not his own safety that matters but civilian casualties (at least that's how its supposed to play out). Kaladin is like this, all of his most impressive fights are against wildly stronger opponents such as a shardbearer or a fused but Kaladin wins because victory is more important to him, his purpose is saving others and it always has been.

[cometaryorbit]

Yes, I agree with all this - Stormlight Archive is more psychological focused than the other series, and that's why its main characters can be so nearly unkillable.

I do think there's some grounds for concern once worlds start crossing over more heavily, though. Stormlight works in Stormlight and Mistborn works in Mistborn, but once powers become more mechanical and transferable...