Am I The Only One Who Thinks That Nightblood Sounds Smarter In Warbreaker Then In SA?

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

I put this in the Stormlight Archive Forum because most of where we see Nightblood, is on Roshar?

So, I'm going back through Warbreaker, and Nightblood sounds (at least to me) to be far more astute than they are in OB or RoW. Granted, Nightblood seems pretty interested in/distracted by Szeth (and Lift) so it could be that, but there are a *lot* more comments about Vasher from Nightblood in Warbreaker then there are about/to Szeth? They sort of, poke fun at him (Vasher)..or comment on hypocrisy and other complex thoughts, that I don't feel are represented in their dialogue in SA?

Am I missing something about this? I know from some WoB, that Nightblood is/has been maturing over the centuries that they've been alive as they absorb investiture, but their dialogue seems even more self-centered in SA then it is in SA, more juvenile maybe? At least to me. Thoughts? Illuminations? Reasons for this that I'm missing something obvious?

Edited May 10, 2023 by JohnnyKaizen
clarity

[RedBlue she/her]

I always saw Nightblood as very lacking in situational awareness, both in Warbreaker and in Stormlight. It just plays differently in scenes with Vasher and Vivenna, who are generally reasonable people and can act as the ‘sensible one’ for Nightblood to bounce off, than with Szeth, who is actively questioning his own sanity and can’t push back against Nightblood’s weirdness in the same way.

But I guess I might have missed something you’re picking up on?

Do you have any specific examples?

[Letryx13]

Nightblood is my favorite character ( if you can call him that) in Warbreaker. 
 

I loved the perky voice the audio books give him, and he does seem smarter, since he questions Vasher’s actions in nearly strangling a servant while sneaking into the palace. But then again, he was probably held by Vasher for many years before the events of WarBreaker happened, so they knew each other quite well. 

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Reasons for this that I'm missing something obvious?

Keep in mind that Vasher had centuries to develop the bond with Nightblood (not to mention being part of his Awakening). WoB

Spoiler

Argent (paraphrased)

How is it that Nightblood, who is merely a near-sentient awakened object, was able to read minds, something a Shard like Ruin was unable to do?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It requires bonding (with the person whose mind is to be read) to read minds.

It likely takes time for Nightblood to both know and assimilate information on the person carrying the sword. Combine that with the relative lack of scenes from Szeth's POV since he received the sword and there is much less opportunity to "hear" Nigthblood's remarks. (Warbreaker Spoilers)

Spoiler

Also note, he was less talkative with Vivenna than Vasher in the climax after she recovers him from Ol' Chaps.

Also, part of the difference was story Narrative - in that many of Vasher's viewpoints had Nightblood as the only source of dialog - which has not been consistently true with Szeth's scenes (but on the Purelake when it was just the two of them, Nightblood was the source of more dialog).

 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

22 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Do you have any specific examples?

Some examples are,

"Oh, no you don’t, Nightblood said. Don’t even start thinking about that. I’ve been locked away for too long.
What does it matter to you? Vasher thought.
I need fresh air, Nightblood said. And sunlight." (Page 58 Hardback)

-The simple fact that they attempt to give Vasher an order, seems like a big difference to me from SA Nightblood, who is (as far as I can remember) always asking/begging for things?

"You lost your temper in there for a bit, Nightblood said with a chastising tone. I thought you were going to work on that.
Guess I’m relapsing, Vasher thought.
Nightblood paused. I don’t think you ever really unlapsed in the first place.
That’s not a word, Vasher said, leaving the alley.
So? Nightblood said. You’re too worried about words. That priest—you spent all those words on him, then you just let him go. It’s not really how I would have handled the situation." (page 63 Hardback)

-This whole analysis of Vasher's actions by Nightblood seems far more mature than anything I hear them say to anyone on Roshar? They are clearly aware of Vasher's feelings through the bond they have, but being aware enough to offer valid criticism is surprising to me now (going back to Warbreaker after so long, and having read OB and RoW several times). 

And this is one that really struck me...

"Dramatic, Nightblood noted.
The sunset? Vasher asked.
Yes.
You can’t see it, he said to the sword.
But I can feel you seeing it. Crimson. Like blood in the air.
Vasher didn’t respond. The sword couldn’t see. But with its powerful, twisted BioChroma, it could sense life and people."

This feels (at least to me) to be far more contemplative and creative, poetic even, of Nightblood over anything I see in SA. 
There are other examples, but I think this shows what I'm getting at, for the purposes of this post.
 

17 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Keep in mind that Vasher had centuries to develop the bond with Nightblood (not to mention being part of his Awakening).

I do feel that Treamayne is on to something here. It could be that because Nightblood has been bonded to, just Vasher, for hundred of years...that Nightblood is more in tune with his thoughts, feelings, attitudes, etc? And I don't know how long Nightblood has been on Roshar, or how long they were with Nale? If it was a long time...that might explain Nightblood's tendency towards sounding a bit unstable? That is making me think that there is a lot more to the bond between Nightblood and their barer, than I had ever really given consideration to? But I should have been, because the nature of bonds between the radiants, Adolin and Maya...and now that I'm realizing it...Nightblood and Szeth, is a huge theme of OB and RoW. So, thanks for that Treamayne

Edited May 10, 2023 by JohnnyKaizen

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 5/10/2023 at 10:50 AM, JohnnyKaizen said:

I do feel that Treamayne is on to something here. It could be that because Nightblood has been bonded to, just Vasher, for hundred of years...that Nightblood is more in tune with his thoughts, feelings, attitudes, etc? And I don't know how long Nightblood has been on Roshar, or how long they were with Nale? If it was a long time...that might explain Nightblood's tendency towards sounding a bit unstable? That is making me think that there is a lot more to the bond between Nightblood and their barer, than I had ever really given consideration to? But I should have been, because the nature of bonds between the radiants, Adolin and Maya...and now that I'm realizing it...Nightblood and Szeth, is a huge theme of OB and RoW. So, thanks for that Treamayne

 

On 5/9/2023 at 10:35 PM, Treamayne said:

Keep in mind that Vasher had centuries to develop the bond with Nightblood (not to mention being part of his Awakening). WoB

  Reveal hidden contents

Argent (paraphrased)

How is it that Nightblood, who is merely a near-sentient awakened object, was able to read minds, something a Shard like Ruin was unable to do?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It requires bonding (with the person whose mind is to be read) to read minds.

It likely takes time for Nightblood to both know and assimilate information on the person carrying the sword. Combine that with the relative lack of scenes from Szeth's POV since he received the sword and there is much less opportunity to "hear" Nigthblood's remarks. (Warbreaker Spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

Also note, he was less talkative with Vivenna than Vasher in the climax after she recovers him from Ol' Chaps.

Also, part of the difference was story Narrative - in that many of Vasher's viewpoints had Nightblood as the only source of dialog - which has not been consistently true with Szeth's scenes (but on the Purelake when it was just the two of them, Nightblood was the source of more dialog).

 

Interesting thoughts. One other thing to consider between Nightblood and Szeth is that their Intents are matched in such a way that they don't "react" as much. Perhaps this could be part of the reason Nightblood isn't as talkative in SA?

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/484/#e15920

Travis Gafford

End of [Words of Radiance], Szeth meets Nightblood. Nightblood normally makes people feel very sick as a test. He does not have this. And I'm curious if there's a reason for that other than you didn't want to end your book with Szeth puking in a corner.

Brandon Sanderson

What happens when you take Nightblood is based entirely on what your desire on how to use Nightblood is. If your intent does not align with Nightblood's created Intent, which is kind of a deep, Cosmere sort of thing. But, basically, if you want Nightblood because you can then destroy all of your enemies, you're not gonna match to that Intent. If your desire to use Nightblood is either: "I don't even want to use Nightblood," you're actually gonna be fine; or if your desire to Nightblood is matching what Nightblood's view is... And Szeth is, like, the perfect person, because Szeth only wants to do what he's told, and Nightblood kind of only wants to do what he's told. So there's, like, a perfect alignment. They're both messed up in the same way, and they both view the world in the same way, and it's hard to find a more perfect alignment than those two. And so, because of that, there was just no reaction. And that should be something that I wanted people to pick up on.

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

13 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

 

Interesting thoughts. One other thing to consider between Nightblood and Szeth is that their Intents are matched in such a way that they don't "react" as much. Perhaps this could be part of the reason Nightblood isn't as talkative in SA?

 

I really like that thought.  I miss the chatty Nightblood of Warbreaker but I can definately see a different dynamic between the two relationships.  Vasher didn't want to use Nightblood ever and doesn't enjoy what Nightblood is.  Szeth is a bit different.  Not trying to hold Nightblood back but making him wait his turn.  I am sure Nightblood can feel the difference. 

[Nogo]

I have noticed this phenomenon as well and like pretty much everything written above.   Really digging the connection comments between Nightblood and its holder as well as the whole intent thing which, in Szeth's case, is potentially super scary if fully unleashed (Shinovar... you poor poor people, maybe).  

I really do miss Nightblood's banter from Warbreaker.  Yeah, its SA banter still makes me giggle sometimes and the like, but its just not as good.  If you sit and think about it though, Vasher is a deep thinking scholarly individual who is (until he Monks out) constantly on the move trying to achieve huge, planet altering ends.   Szeth, on the other hand, has spent his time with Nightblood doing very little on a day to day basis.  So even though there has been some things to discuss (Nale, becoming a Skybreaker, a couple battles) Nightblood has not been part of any strategic things.  Even the whole Taravangian thing was done without Szeth or Nightblood being involved intellectually.  I really think that, because of Szeth's quiet, stoic nature (at least now days) Nightblood has devolved somewhat to match and we, the reader, get shorter, less involved narrative from Nightblood.  I imagine that when we have an independent Szeth (something we haven't ever seen) joined up with Kaladin, Nightblood might just perk up and be more like its old pre-Rosharian self.  Especially is Kaladin is involved with the conversations like Vivienna was for the last half of Warbreaker.  

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

9 minutes ago, Nogo said:

(Shinovar... you poor poor people, maybe)

Maybe I should start a whole different thread, but I am looking forward to some justice being doled out in Shinovar. I am not particularly blood thirsty, but if the situation was as cut and dry as, "Szeth tried to warn his superiors of imminent danger, and they decided to reject him in such a way as to force him to be one of Roshar's most prolific murderers" ...Well, some folks would need to answer for that.

I also realize that we know next to nothing about Shinovar..their Culture..what knowledge they retain that most of Roshar doesn't..what specifically Szeth did, and specifically what the response to that was, and why? All that stuff is in the dark. But damnation, somebody needs to be held accountable to some extent.

I also say all of this, fully expecting for BS to turn all of my expectations on their heads about 7 pages into Szeth and Kaladin getting to Shinovar. So, there's that as well.

[Nogo]

23 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Maybe I should start a whole different thread, but I am looking forward to some justice being doled out in Shinovar. I am not particularly blood thirsty, but if the situation was as cut and dry as, "Szeth tried to warn his superiors of imminent danger, and they decided to reject him in such a way as to force him to be one of Roshar's most prolific murderers" ...Well, some folks would need to answer for that.

I also realize that we know next to nothing about Shinovar..their Culture..what knowledge they retain that most of Roshar doesn't..what specifically Szeth did, and specifically what the response to that was, and why? All that stuff is in the dark. But damnation, somebody needs to be held accountable to some extent.

I also say all of this, fully expecting for BS to turn all of my expectations on their heads about 7 pages into Szeth and Kaladin getting to Shinovar. So, there's that as well.

I am also very excited for the trip to Shinovar.  I dunno about doling out justice... but I'm just excited to see pissed off Szeth, Nightblood, and Kaladin rampaging around Shinovar.  Like throwing a torch into a powder keg.  No way that story is less than amazing.  Plus, like you say, we FINALLY might get some answers about Shinovar and the Shin.  We know nothing!

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 5/16/2023 at 11:59 AM, Nogo said:

I am also very excited for the trip to Shinovar.  I dunno about doling out justice... but I'm just excited to see pissed off Szeth, Nightblood, and Kaladin rampaging around Shinovar.  Like throwing a torch into a powder keg.  No way that story is less than amazing. 

Personally, I'm really excited to see Kaladin and Szeth have to hang around each other for a while. With Kaladin beginning to look into helping those with mental illness, it would be good to see the two of them become friends