Investiture, Longevity, and the Physical Realm

[Trusk'our he/him]

This is a follow up to my other post hypothesizing about the nature of Metalmind capacity and Investiture pushing into all three Realms (link here).

I've been stumped for a while on how it is that Bio-Chromatic Breaths seem to increase one's lifespan, but someone with quite a bit of Spiritually based Investiture didn't have such benefits (Rashek). But, I have an idea now.

My original hypothesis is that when enough Investiture in one Realm exists together, it pushes into the other two Realms; we see this with Shards creating Perpendicularities.

Here's my new hypothesis building on that idea; Breaths are mostly in the Physical Realm, which means that they saturate the body and help it run better. However, Allomantic (and Feruchemical) power is mostly in the Spiritual Realm, which keeps it away from the body, meaning that it can't help you stay young. Now, with enough Investiture in either case it would start to bleed into the other Realms (Breaths would leak into the Spiritual and the presence of Allomantic powers would physically manifest), but you would need a lot of it to see that happen at any scale that would help someone like Rashek live noticeably longer; he's strong, but not strong  enough to be naturally ageless since the majority of his Investiture resides in the Spiritual Realm.

What about Returned and their agelessness? Their Divine Breaths are mostly Spiritual, after all. They're already Cognitive Shadows, so they wouldn't age even without having the 5th Heightening. It's also worth noting that the Idrian royal line has fragments of Divine Breaths inside them, yet they do not have noticeably longer lives, which further supports the idea that Investiture in the SR doesn't help nearly as much as Investiture in the PR when it comes to longevity.

Another thing that comes into play here is Hemalurgy; Hemalurgic spikes have their Investiture exist mostly in the PR, which may extend one's life if enough Investiture could be obtained through this way. In fact, this may be why some Steel Inquisitors had longer lives than humans; the Investiture from their spikes increased their total lifespan (WoB).

So, what do you guys think?

 

One last afterthought; Breaths and Hemalurgic spikes are both tied to oneself; they are static Investiture that is an actual part of you in the PR, so they give you a boost to your health and longevity. Simply Compounding a bunch of Investiture into some Metalminds and implanting them into your body probably wouldn't work to extend your lifespan, as they aren't part of you (but I don't know, that's just a guess).

[alder24]

52 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Here's my new hypothesis building on that idea; Breaths are mostly in the Physical Realm, which means that they saturate the body and help it run better. However, Allomantic (and Feruchemical) power is mostly in the Spiritual Realm, which keeps it away from the body, meaning that it can't help you stay young. Now, with enough Investiture in either case it would start to bleed into the other Realms (Breaths would leak into the Spiritual and the presence of Allomantic powers would physically manifest), but you would need a lot of it to see that happen at any scale that would help someone like Rashek live noticeably longer; he's strong, but not strong  enough to be naturally ageless since the majority of his Investiture resides in the Spiritual Realm.

Or it's because Scadrial is a low invested world, and the amount of investiture Feruchemist and Allomancers deal with is miniscule compared to Awakeners. Even when Rashek was constantly burning metals and tapping metalminds, he still used less investiture than Awakener with hundreds of Breaths. While being a Fullborn did increase his lifespan, maybe by a few years or a decade, what is it compared to 1000 years that he lived for? Rashak isn't really a good example to look for natural life prolongation effects of investiture.

Spook would be better, but we know so little about him post-Catacendre. If he didn't do something weird he lived for more than 118 years just by being a Mistborn. But he could do something weird with himself. Spikes, cadmium bubbles, or feruchemy - we don't know. Secret History 2 we're waiting for you.

All investiture prolongs life, every person that is more invested would be healthier and live longer.

Spoiler

OrangeJedi

So if the skaa on Scadrial had gone out in the mists more often, would they have had a longer lifespan?

Brandon Sanderson

*Hesitant* The skaa lifespans are more related to their status in life than genetic predisposition. Going in the mists probably would not have changed that.

OrangeJedi

I didn't think of it that way, I thought of it more from a, "Oh, people on Roshar have a longer lifespan because of Investiture." Because the mists are Invested.

Brandon Sanderson

*Hesitant* Technically yes, but I think it's going to be pretty miniscule. Technically yes.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

So, what do you guys think?

Huh, I think this is a bad day for me to look at theories, because that's the 3rd one that I blasted today. I'm too skeptical today. Sorry 

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

One last afterthought; Breaths and Hemalurgic spikes are both tied to oneself; they are static Investiture that is an actual part of you in the PR, so they give you a boost to your health and longevity. Simply Compounding a bunch of Investiture into some Metalminds and implanting them into your body probably wouldn't work to extend your lifespan, as they aren't part of you (but I don't know, that's just a guess).

Yes, with this I agree. Static investiture isn't extending your lifespan (at least not in a short use, over long periods of time, being in an infested environment, like Roshar will increase your lifespan). What is working for your life is kinetic, but mostly innate investiture. And both spikes and Breaths are innate investiture.

[Trusk'our he/him]

21 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Or it's because Scadrial is a low invested world, and the amount of investiture Feruchemist and Allomancers deal with is miniscule compared to Awakeners. Even when Rashek was constantly burning metals and tapping metalminds, he still used less investiture than Awakener with hundreds of Breaths. While being a Fullborn did increase his lifespan, maybe by a few years or a decade, what is it compared to 1000 years that he lived for? Rashak isn't really a good example to look for natural life prolongation effects of investiture.

It's true that we don't really know just how Invested Rashek was; it could have been anywhere from a lower Heightening to Godking levels. What's more, his Investiture level's would certainly fluctuate, given that he could Compound and had extremely powerful Allomancy (though I'm not sure that the Kinetic Investiture gained through those would have been very useful for his longevity).

25 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Spook would be better, but we know so little about him post-Catacendre. If he didn't do something weird he lived for more than 118 years just by being a Mistborn. But he could do something weird with himself. Spikes, cadmium bubbles, or feruchemy - we don't know. Secret History 2 we're waiting for you.

I think that you may be right about Spook and Rashek; they aren't exactly your average person and they have multiple things going on with them that could meddle with things.

Also, I don't know that Spook did live 118 years; Marasi says he stepped down from his rule after a century, but we know that people tend to round numbers to a more concise whole.

The Well of Ascension was said to fill every one thousand years, but it was actually every one thousand twenty-four years (WoB).

Era three Mistborn is said in AoL to take place three centuries after the Catecandre, but it's actually three hundred and forty-one years PC (Coppermind Wiki).

With that in mind, it could be that Spook actually reigned somewhere between seventy-five to ninety years, meaning that he could have been significantly younger than 118 when he died. Not saying that he didn't, just that it isn't set in stone right now.

27 minutes ago, alder24 said:

All investiture prolongs life, every person that is more invested would be healthier and live longer.

  Reveal hidden contents

OrangeJedi

So if the skaa on Scadrial had gone out in the mists more often, would they have had a longer lifespan?

Brandon Sanderson

*Hesitant* The skaa lifespans are more related to their status in life than genetic predisposition. Going in the mists probably would not have changed that.

OrangeJedi

I didn't think of it that way, I thought of it more from a, "Oh, people on Roshar have a longer lifespan because of Investiture." Because the mists are Invested.

Brandon Sanderson

*Hesitant* Technically yes, but I think it's going to be pretty miniscule. Technically yes.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

I thought that the reason the Rosharans in the WoB would live longer because they have slightly more Innate Investiture in them (Innate Investiture is just another form of Static Investiture, but one that is part of a living thing) than the average Skaa.

But, I think that you may be right; an environment with more Static Investiture permeating it will allow someone to live longer in it, even if it isn't technically a part of them (it isn't Innate Investiture).

Wonder if someone could become functionally immortal by chilling inside a Perpendicularity jacuzzi? Would be a bit boring, but I guess you could have servants get stuff for you and exert your will on the world around you.

30 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, with this I agree. Static investiture isn't extending your lifespan (at least not in a short use, over long periods of time, being in an infested environment, like Roshar will increase your lifespan). What is working for your life is kinetic, but mostly innate investiture. And both spikes and Breaths are innate investiture.

I don't know about that; Static Investiture is what we see prolonging people's lives (Bio-Chromatic Breaths, Stormlight permeating Roshar's ecosystem, and potentially Hemalurgic spikes) while Kinetic Investiture doesn't (I also find it important to clarify that I think that Static Investiture and Innate Investiture are likely the same thing, the only difference being that Innate Investiture is actually part of someone while Static Investiture is a broader term for any Investiture that isn't currently doing any work and is just acting as a "lightbulb" to the Spiritual Realm).

Otherwise, I don't know that Rashek (yes, I know, not a perfect example, but we don't have many other ancient humans lying around) would have needed to Compound Atium- he'd have been able to Compound a decent amount of any other metal to slow aging.

52 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Huh, I think this is a bad day for me to look at theories, because that's the 3rd one that I blasted today. I'm too skeptical today. Sorry 

Better to build a house and shake it thoroughly to check if it's stable before you decide to sleep in it and have it potentially fall on your head (check your ideas before you set them in stone, basically).

I do like it when people agree with me, but I understand that when people challenge my ideas it lets me see things with new perspectives and with a more open mind. In short, thank you for disagreeing with me and thereby giving me the opportunity to grow. I sincerely appreciate it  

(plus, I like to ramble on a LOT in case you couldn't tell, and this gives me the excuse to do so )

[alder24]

26 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

The Well of Ascension was said to fill every one thousand years, but it was actually every one thousand twenty-four years (WoB).

That's a small rounding

26 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Era three Mistborn is said in AoL to take place three centuries after the Catecandre, but it's actually three hundred and forty-one years PC (Coppermind Wiki).

The statement is true. Only 3 whole centuries have passed when AoL took place, that's not a rounding, that's just using bigger units. If they said 300 years, not centuries, that would be a big rounding. Like you just rounded era 2 to era 3.

28 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

With that in mind, it could be that Spook actually reigned somewhere between seventy-five to ninety years, meaning that he could have been significantly younger than 118 when he died. Not saying that he didn't, just that it isn't set in stone right now.

I would say that because she said "after a century of rule" at least 100 years had passed before Spook gave up his power. Full century. But I admit your line of reasoning is valid as well.

30 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Wonder if someone could become functionally immortal by chilling inside a Perpendicularity jacuzzi? Would be a bit boring, but I guess you could have servants get stuff for you and exert your will on the world around you.

Kelsier did that. But in slightly different circumstances. But I doubt it would be that easy.

32 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I don't know about that; Static Investiture is what we see prolonging people's lives (Bio-Chromatic Breaths [...] and potentially Hemalurgic spikes

 

Breaths are innate. Spikes hold a portion of a soul, that's technically innate investiture in my opinion.

34 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

(I also find it important to clarify that I think that Static Investiture and Innate Investiture are likely the same thing, the only difference being that Innate Investiture is actually part of someone while Static Investiture is a broader term for any Investiture that isn't currently doing any work and is just acting as a "lightbulb" to the Spiritual Realm).

Static is not part of your soul, while innate is. That's the difference. 

35 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Otherwise, I don't know that Rashek (yes, I know, not a perfect example, but we don't have many other ancient humans lying around) would have needed to Compound Atium- he'd have been able to Compound a decent amount of any other metal to slow aging.

He would need Atium. That's the whole idea of Atium compounding. To extend his life in opposition to his spiritual age. If normal compounding was enough, his spiritual age would be extended instead.

37 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Better to build a house and shake it thoroughly to check if it's stable before you decide to sleep in it and have it potentially fall on your head 

Shaking a... house? Ok, I don't even need to comment on that theory for you to know that's impossible  

38 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I do like it when people agree with me, but I understand that when people challenge my ideas it lets me see things with new perspectives and with a more open mind. In short, thank you for disagreeing with me and thereby giving me the opportunity to grow. I sincerely appreciate it  

(plus, I like to ramble on a LOT in case you couldn't tell, and this gives me the excuse to do so )

I like to argue provoke fruitful discussions.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

Static is not part of your soul, while innate is. That's the difference. 

Yup. Pretty much.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

Breaths are innate. Spikes hold a portion of a soul, that's technically innate investiture in my opinion.

I agree with this; they are both "permanent" parts of a being, so they count as Innate Investiture.

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I would say that because she said "after a century of rule" at least 100 years had passed before Spook gave up his power. Full century. But I admit your line of reasoning is valid as well.

That's a pretty logical conclusion. I just want to keep an open mind in case that turns out to not be how it works out.

Quote

Kelsier did that. But in slightly different circumstances. But I doubt it would be that easy.

Yeah, he was a Cognitive Shadow at the time, which fiddles with things a bit.

Actually, maybe this is how the 17th Shard slows the aging of its mortal members? They occasionally visit a place with a high concentration of Investiture to "boost" their health and youth?

Quote

He would need Atium. That's the whole idea of Atium compounding. To extend his life in opposition to his spiritual age. If normal compounding was enough, his spiritual age would be extended instead.

Yeah, and he likely would have known that such a thing was a possibility as well, since he had the in-depth knowledge granted by the Well of Ascension. Therefore, Kinetic Investiture probably isn't a good way to extend your lifespan unless it's directly programmed to do so, such as with Atium Compounding.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

Shaking a... house? Ok, I don't even need to comment on that theory for you to know that's impossible  

Eh, I couldn't make a better analogy for needing to test your ideas out with other's viewpoints at the time, but clearly its humorous value was still present 

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

I like to argue provoke fruitful discussions.  

It's a good thing I enjoy indulging in them as well then 

[Duxredux he/him]

14 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I've been stumped for a while on how it is that Bio-Chromatic Breaths seem to increase one's lifespan, but someone with quite a bit of Spiritually based Investiture didn't have such benefits (Rashek). But, I have an idea now.

From the OP, my assumpion was always that life extension was just an intrinsic aspect of Breath, particularly Breath donation. It's BioChroma, the power that is the pattern of life. It literally creates zombies by Commanding the dead to live. The Command to give another person Breath is an actual Command related to life, not just handing over a sack of cash or a sphere: "My life to yours, my Breath become yours." 5th Heightening is approximately 2,000 people Commanding their life unto someone else or 1 Shard replacing your soul with the actual power of life.

I'm not sure if I follow the main concepts of the Realmatic Theory right now when I'm this tired, but Breath looks like it has a lot going for life extension that could make it a major exception for theory crafting. I'll look more closely at the rest later.

[alder24]

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Yeah, he was a Cognitive Shadow at the time, which fiddles with things a bit.

Actually, maybe this is how the 17th Shard slows the aging of its mortal members? They occasionally visit a place with a high concentration of Investiture to "boost" their health and youth?

While that's possible it's very impractical. They would have to go out of their way to find perpendicularity and "bath" in it for an extended period of time. If this was that easy perpendicularities would be swarming with people trying to extend their life - which is not happening.

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Eh, I couldn't make a better analogy for needing to test your ideas out with other's viewpoints at the time, but clearly its humorous value was still present 

It was a good one and funny one too.

5 hours ago, Duxredux said:

From the OP, my assumpion was always that life extension was just an intrinsic aspect of Breath, particularly Breath donation. It's BioChroma, the power that is the pattern of life. It literally creates zombies by Commanding the dead to live. The Command to give another person Breath is an actual Command related to life, not just handing over a sack of cash or a sphere: "My life to yours, my Breath become yours." 5th Heightening is approximately 2,000 people Commanding their life unto someone else or 1 Shard replacing your soul with the actual power of life.

Yes, that's a valid point. It ties up to the theory once proposed that you can give more than life with a proper command. Your strength, memories and stuff like this. This particular wording of the command might be the reason why Breaths extend life in large quantities.

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

While that's possible it's very impractical. They would have to go out of their way to find perpendicularity and "bath" in it for an extended period of time. If this was that easy perpendicularities would be swarming with people trying to extend their life - which is not happening.

What if knowledge of such life extension is kept secret for that very reason? Those that want to extend their lives know that if the secret gets out they'll have a lot of competition, so they keep it secret.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

It was a good one and funny one too.

Thanks! 

[Duxredux he/him]

I will point out that if a population is generally healthier due to environmental Investiture, like Roshar, on average the lifespan will be longer just due to less diseases killing people, even if there is nothing that specific addresses aging.

 

I thought about it, and immortality seems like it would intrinsically be difficult to measure or validate. Immortality versus 1,000 - 2,000 year lifespan for someone that is carrying around "giftable" everlasting life (and there's been threads looking at obtaining said everlasting life through... nefarious means), may be difficult to differentiate. And yet somehow they have a method to measure it in some level of granularity:

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At the Fifth Heightening, an Awakener’s resistance to aging and disease reaches its maximum strength. These persons are immune to most toxins, including the effects of alcohol, and most physical ailments. (Such as headaches, diseases, and organ failure.) The person no longer ages, and becomes functionally immortal.

What exactly are they measuring here? What is this "resistance to aging"? Presumably they don't just have upper Heightening individuals drop by a clinic for a physical every decade or century. The fact that Silverlight has a metric to measure this presumably means it has to make a impact on something that can be identified physiologically that confirms that an individual is functionally immortal and does not age versus ages really, really slowly. Knowing the items (characteristics? Not sure on the right term) they measure to draw this conclusion would give a big leap towards understanding what enables resistance to aging. I don't think it's general Investiture in the body or environment, I think there has to be something that specifically addresses the Spiritweb's "internal clock", whatever that is, that determines the Spiritual ideal age for a person, and that whatever it is can be measured by someone with Silverlight's knowledge and resources.

[cometaryorbit]

That is an extremely good point. Awakening has only been known for about 400 years as of Warbreaker, so how do they know that it's literal agelessness as opposed to "age 1 year for every 500 years that pass"? Vivenna with maybe 800ish? Breaths is already said to be almost ageless.