Kandra and Feruchemical Gold

[Trusk'our he/him]

In most cases, Kandra really don't need Feruchemical gold; they already have a "cheaper" yet nearly as effective version of healing as part of their natural ability to change shape.

However, I had an interesting thought about F-gold and Kandra when I came up with a Kandra Warrior for a thought experiment. Basically, if a Kandra used self-perception in the right way, could they use F-gold to grow a larger body? For example, could they grow extra mass for creating bigger muscles using F-gold?

Another question that arises is, can Kandra fill a Goldmind better than a human? Their shape shifting probably doesn't directly count, but could they find a way to sculpt their body to be able to store more health at a given time?

[Elder]

For what it’s worth, they could fix broken bones with F-Gold.

I suppose the question is, what does a Kandra in poor health look like?

[Trusk'our he/him]

34 minutes ago, Elder said:

For what it’s worth, they could fix broken bones with F-Gold.

That's another question actually; can Kandra effect their bones with things like F-gold or A-pewter (the latter especially, since a super-strength Kandra would then be limited by their bone's natural strength)?

[Elder]

42 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

That's another question actually; can Kandra effect their bones with things like F-gold or A-pewter (the latter especially, since a super-strength Kandra would then be limited by their bone's natural strength)?

I imagine they already have a similar situation with the blessing of potency, referring to bone strength and pewter.  That said, Vin used duralumin and pewter to reinforce her bones and mitigate a strike from a thug in WoA, came out with cracked ribs instead of broken.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

However, I had an interesting thought about F-gold and Kandra when I came up with a Kandra Warrior for a thought experiment. Basically, if a Kandra used self-perception in the right way, could they use F-gold to grow a larger body? For example, could they grow extra mass for creating bigger muscles using F-gold?

There's no reason that I can think of for why they couldn't

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Another question that arises is, can Kandra fill a Goldmind better than a human? Their shape shifting probably doesn't directly count, but could they find a way to sculpt their body to be able to store more health at a given time?

Not unless they're very clever about it, because as far as I can tell, they don't have any form of natural healing, they just make their wounds close and heal via shapeshifting. Unless that counts as healing, in which case they could just leave some wounds open to store Health, then close them on their own without tapping their reserve, but that seems a bit too overpowered, so I doubt it.

7 hours ago, Elder said:

For what it’s worth, they could fix broken bones with F-Gold.

 

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

That's another question actually; can Kandra effect their bones with things like F-gold or A-pewter (the latter especially, since a super-strength Kandra would then be limited by their bone's natural strength)?

With the proper Self-Perception, I think they could. I actually think they could affect True Body bones like metal ones with F-Gold and A-Pewter too, Self-Perception should let them do it.

7 hours ago, Elder said:

I suppose the question is, what does a Kandra in poor health look like?

Probably something like the First Generation in HoA, droopy muscles, weak, etc.

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

In most cases, Kandra really don't need Feruchemical gold; they already have a "cheaper" yet nearly as effective version of healing as part of their natural ability to change shape.

However, I had an interesting thought about F-gold and Kandra when I came up with a Kandra Warrior for a thought experiment. Basically, if a Kandra used self-perception in the right way, could they use F-gold to grow a larger body? For example, could they grow extra mass for creating bigger muscles using F-gold?

Another question that arises is, can Kandra fill a Goldmind better than a human? Their shape shifting probably doesn't directly count, but could they find a way to sculpt their body to be able to store more health at a given time?

I would argue that they need gold - just look at TenSoon in HoA after being treated with acid - he lacked mass. This is something he could heal with F-gold. But I don't think kandra can "heal" themself to gain more mass than they normally have. In a human form, they will have as much mass as that human had, and F-gold won't help him to gain more - F-pewter will. Healing bones might be possible, but bones might not be part of Kandra, so it depends on self-perception. 

And they still need food to grow, they need mass to create more mass. They like rotten meat, in prison they have to be fed and otherwise they will lose mass. F-bendalloy would help achieve what you want, not F-gold.  Their shapeshifting ability doesn't heal them, they shift their body to close wounds, repair damaged structure, but not grow more in mass. 

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Probably something like the First Generation in HoA, droopy muscles, weak, etc.

They look like that because they’ve never experienced the life of Mistwraiths and don't have instincts on how to shape their body like Kandra, not because they're old/weak. They're far more human-like than the rest of Kandra.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

The First Generation Arrive

The First Generation are different from the other generations. Other kandra were born from mistwraiths that had bred true, becoming their own species. The Firsts, however, were humans who were changed directly into kandra. They aren't as good at holding their bodies together as creatures who were born first as mistwraiths. Someone like TenSoon carries with him a heritage of intuition and instinct gained by his previous life as a mistwraith.

The Firsts don't have that. They haven't practiced taking new bodies—in fact, only a couple of them have ever even done such a thing. They've spent their lives in the Homeland and don't know how to use their powers. The skin droops from their bones, and they look—and feel—old, something that doesn't happen to other kandra.

Here, oddly, is the first climax of the TenSoon chapters. He's not there to see it, but his words are what finally convinced the Firsts to come down from their alcoves and face the truth that the end has come.

Also, Moshe, I still think those should be podiums rather than lecterns.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (March 21, 2010)

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

I would argue that they need gold - just look at TenSoon in HoA after being treated with acid - he lacked mass. This is something he could heal with F-gold. But I don't think kandra can "heal" themself to gain more mass than they normally have. In a human form, they will have as much mass as that human had, and F-gold won't help him to gain more - F-pewter will. Healing bones might be possible, but bones might not be part of Kandra, so it depends on self-perception. 

And they still need food to grow, they need mass to create more mass. They like rotten meat, in prison they have to be fed and otherwise they will lose mass. F-bendalloy would help achieve what you want, not F-gold.  Their shapeshifting ability doesn't heal them, they shift their body to close wounds, repair damaged structure, but not grow more in mass.

 

You're thinking of it the wrong way. If a Bloodmaker, let's say Wayne, gets a chunk of their arm blown off, the Health in their Goldmind will regrow the muscle from nothing to match his Spiritual Ideal, which is filtered through his Cognitive Aspect. What Trusk'our is suggesting is that if they change their Cognitive Aspect to think they should have more mass than they do right now, could they trick the Health into creating more mass than its supposed to? F-Pewter would work as you're suggesting, and they could do it with F-Bendalloy the normal—if slow—way, but I think F-Gold could be utilised too, given the Kandra's Self-Perception hack

Edited April 29, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

You're thinking of it the wrong way. If a Bloodmaker, let's say Wayne, gets a chunk of their arm blown off, the Health int heir Goldmind will regrow the muscle from nothing to match his Spiritual Ideal, which is filtered through his Cognitive Aspect. What Trusk'ouris suggesting is that if they change their Cognitive Aspect to think they should have more mass than they do right now, could they trick the Health into creating more mass than its supposed to? F-Pewter would work as you're suggesting, and they could do it with F-Bendalloy the normal- if slow- way, but I think F-Gold could be utilised too, given the Kandra's Self-Perception hack

Right, I get it now. This might work, but in the same way it will work for any person who isn't a Kandra. A normal person also should grow muscles if he views himself as muscular, and have lots of health to draw. Kandra has an advantage over them, as he can think easier in that way, and can shape his body normally, but a regular person can still do that per WoBs below.

Warbreaker spoiler:

Spoiler

This is something that Returned do. The old ones are getting older, the beautiful are beautiful etc.

SA spoilers WoBs:

Spoiler

learhpa

Given that Stormlight healing matches to mental self-image (as shown by both the Lopen and by the Reshi monarch), could a really powerful hypnotist change someone's self-image in a way that would affect Stormlight healing? Could a powerful hypnotist use Stormlight healing to change a human into a listener?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically possible...to an extent. There is a limit to this, but the limitation is the amount of Investiture you have and access to Stormlight—or you know, Voidlight—can evidence this. Transformations that are happening in the storm to the listener forms are involved in this. That could theoretically happen to a human as well. But you would basically—what most likely would happen is it would have to involve a specific set of circumstances and then entering the storm, and then exiting as a listener—that could happen. You guys ask some farfetched things—that one's not so farfetched. It does require some specificity, but it could happen.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Krios (paraphrased)

If you have a form of manipulating your Identity and a form of healing, are you able to shapeshift or even evolve your body like growing wings?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You'd have to do some real work on your Spiritweb to make that work. It'd take more work than you're implying, but the [singers] for instance are doing this. It'll take a little more work, it's not just blanking your Identity. Hemalurgy would make it very easy, but also very evil. But what you want to achieve is possible.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Right, I get it now. This might work, but in the same way it will work for any person who isn't a Kandra. A normal person also should grow muscles if he views himself as muscular, and have lots of health to draw. Kandra has an advantage over them, as he can think easier in that way, and can shape his body normally, but a regular person can still do that per WoBs below.

Warbreaker spoiler:

  Reveal hidden contents

This is something that Returned do. The old ones are getting older, the beautiful are beautiful etc.

SA spoilers WoBs:

  Reveal hidden contents

learhpa

Given that Stormlight healing matches to mental self-image (as shown by both the Lopen and by the Reshi monarch), could a really powerful hypnotist change someone's self-image in a way that would affect Stormlight healing? Could a powerful hypnotist use Stormlight healing to change a human into a listener?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically possible...to an extent. There is a limit to this, but the limitation is the amount of Investiture you have and access to Stormlight—or you know, Voidlight—can evidence this. Transformations that are happening in the storm to the listener forms are involved in this. That could theoretically happen to a human as well. But you would basically—what most likely would happen is it would have to involve a specific set of circumstances and then entering the storm, and then exiting as a listener—that could happen. You guys ask some farfetched things—that one's not so farfetched. It does require some specificity, but it could happen.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Krios (paraphrased)

If you have a form of manipulating your Identity and a form of healing, are you able to shapeshift or even evolve your body like growing wings?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You'd have to do some real work on your Spiritweb to make that work. It'd take more work than you're implying, but the [singers] for instance are doing this. It'll take a little more work, it's not just blanking your Identity. Hemalurgy would make it very easy, but also very evil. But what you want to achieve is possible.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

Oh, that makes it a lot more flexible than I thought. If a Kandra changed their Self-Perception into an animal, could they just Tap F-Gold and become full on Shapeshifters (Beyond what they already are)?

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Oh, that makes it a lot more flexible than I thought. If a Kandra changed their Self-Perception into an animal, could they just Tap F-Gold and become full on Shapeshifters (Beyond what they already are)?

I don't know, WoBs say about "a specific set of circumstances" and "do some real work on your Spiritweb", so there might be something more to it than just self-perception and tons of health, or it is just very hard to have such different self-perception to turn into an animal or some hybrid. But with some less ambitious cases, this will work. Plus being highly invested would help with that too:

Spoiler

R'Shara

Would Stormlight healing, Progression, or Feruchemical gold healing count as some of the ways that a transgender person could change their body to match their identity?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Those would work. In fact, that's kind of the main way that you would make that happen. Injections of Investiture making the body match the Spiritual and Cognitive.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

SA spoilers WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

A character in The Stormlight Archive who eventually was able to heal of a wound. An old wound, and normally healing old wounds, with Regrowth, can't be healed.

Brandon Sanderson

This is a limitation of healing someone else, versus healing yourself. Healing someone else is a weaker method, at least as it's understood by the Radiants currently. Figuring out how to make Regrowth fix older wounds is more difficult. When you are highly Invested in such a way that you have a spren bond, then you are able to kind of rewrite your Spiritual self to better match your Cognitive self. Basically, what your soul is better comes to match your perception of your soul and who you are, and who you want to be becomes more important. And because of that, the Radiant bond is able to heal things and even change physiology that normal Regrowth wouldn't be capable of doing.

Tor Instagram Livestream (Nov. 25, 2020)

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

26 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't know, WoBs say about "a specific set of circumstances" and "do some real work on your Spiritweb", so there might be something more to it than just self-perception and tons of health, or it is just very hard to have such different self-perception to turn into an animal or some hybrid. But with some less ambitious cases, this will work. Plus being highly invested would help with that too

I believe the specific set of circumstances are specifically about a human becoming a Singer, so it most likely doesn't apply to the Kandra Shapeshifting thing. As for the Spiritweb, I believe it doesnt apply to Kandra. They're essentially artificially evolved Mistwraiths, so their Spiritwebs are already fitted to extreme shapeshifting, and they have Hemalurgic spikes, which makes some holes in their Spiritwebs and makes them even more flexible. And on top of all that, they have extreme control on their Self-Perception, to the point where Brandon said somewhere that a Cognitive Shadow of a Kandra could basically free-form shapeshift because of it (that's actually where I learned about their malleable Self-Perception in the first place). I fully think they have the potential to instantly become other creatures through F-Gold or other Investiture healing. The only holdback I can imagine at the moment is that their Self-Perception is a bit too human-centric, but that can easily change if they start regularly using animal bodies. It really shouldn't be a problem, otherwise if Tensoon in a dog's body were to tap Healing, He'd instantly become a human, which I just can't see happening. As for being highly Invested, that's what the F-Gold is doing. Besides, they have two Hemalurgic spikes already, so they're more Invested than most other natural beings.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

And on top of all that, they have extreme control on their Self-Perception, to the point where Brandon said somewhere that a Cognitive Shadow of a Kandra could basically free-form shapeshift because of it (that's actually where I learned about their malleable Self-Perception in the first place).

Is that this WoB? It doesn't say that they can shapeshift at will, just that they would be better at being a Cognitive Shadow than humans (like Kel feeling pain, a Kandra would quickly stop perceive themself that way)

Spoiler

Questioner

What would a kandra look like in Shadesmar, and do they have any special abilities in the Cognitive or Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Not sure if I want to canonize what they would look like. I will RAFO what they look like. There is nothing that they would have as a special power over a human being in the Cognitive Realm, except for the fact that they are trained to think of themselves in certain ways. They have mental training, someone else could learn this, but they have over many centuries, this ability. And your ability to perceive yourself in certain ways is very powerful in the cosmere, and the kandra are very good at this.

Questioner

So it would less limiting than in the Physical Realm, where they have to adopt the bones and persona?

Brandon Sanderson

Here's the thing, if they went to the Cognitive Realm, they'd go there Physically, so they'd be under the same rules. There's a theoretical whatever out there that maybe, if they got killed, and their soul, and things like this, but in most cases, a kandra would go like a human would, and they'd be following the same rules. So if you got a kandra who somehow persisted as a Cognitive Shadow, they would have certain advantages over people who had not trained in perception the way they have.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

7 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I believe the specific set of circumstances are specifically about a human becoming a Singer, so it most likely doesn't apply to the Kandra Shapeshifting thing. As for the Spiritweb, I believe it doesnt apply to Kandra.

The same thing applies to Kandra. You need invested healing ability, a lot of investiture (that's why in the WoB it's about entering a Highstorm) and a specific self-perception, plus possibly something more, and this would change their body beyond what it is currently able to do.

10 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

they have Hemalurgic spikes, which makes some holes in their Spiritwebs and makes them even more flexible.

No? Why? Source?

14 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

The only holdback I can imagine at the moment is that their Self-Perception is a bit too human-centric, but that can easily change if they start regularly using animal bodies. It really shouldn't be a problem, otherwise if Tensoon in a dog's body were to tap Healing, He'd instantly become a human, which I just can't see happening.

That might be that “something else” - having bones to trick your mind into accepting a different self-perception. As long as TenSoon wears dog bones, he won't change into a human after tapping gold. And tbf what is an ideal physical form of Kandra? There isn't something like that, they're ideal form might be shifted to the bones they're wearing.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

38 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Is that this WoB? It doesn't say that they can shapeshift at will, just that they would be better at being a Cognitive Shadow than humans (like Kel feeling pain, a Kandra would quickly stop perceive themself that way)

I don't recall, but it most probably is. Looking at the WoB, I will admit that the Free-form shapeshifting is an extrapolation so it should be taken with a grain of salt, but I still think it should be possible.

38 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The same thing applies to Kandra. You need invested healing ability, a lot of investiture (that's why in the WoB it's about entering a Highstorm) and a specific self-perception, plus possibly something more, and this would change their body beyond what it is currently able to do.

They already have all three, in F-Gold, a lot of Health stored up in a Goldmind, and a specific Self-Perception. I understood the "specific set of circumstances" to mean the 'possible something more' you're talking about, which given the context Brandon said it in is most likely to do with a Human becoming a Singer, and that is what I was saying probably doesn't apply to what we're trying to see if the Kandra can do.

38 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No? Why? Source?

 

Spoiler

Krios (paraphrased)

If you have a form of manipulating your Identity and a form of healing, are you able to shapeshift or even evolve your body like growing wings?

 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You'd have to do some real work on your Spiritweb to make that work. It'd take more work than you're implying, but the [singers] for instance are doing this. It'll take a little more work, it's not just blanking your Identity. Hemalurgy would make it very easy, but also very evil. But what you want to achieve is possible.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/390/#e12722

 

38 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That might be that “something else” - having bones to trick your mind into accepting a different self-perception. As long as TenSoon wears dog bones, he won't change into a human after tapping gold. And tbf what is an ideal physical form of Kandra? There isn't something like that, they're ideal form might be shifted to the bones they're wearing.

I can't imagine something so Psychological as an 'Ideal Self' to be tied to your body so specifically, especially for beings who can change bodies as easily as clothes. And Brandon says it should give them a unique edge as Cognitive Shadows, where they wouldn't have access to bones. He also says someone else could learn it, so it can't be tied to changing bodies at all. The Ideal Self is a Spiritual attribute that has to be filtered through the mind to affect the body, I think centuries' worth of practice being other people while also mainting a true identity the entire time should let them change their Self-Perception as they please, and therefore affect their Ideal Self

Edited April 29, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

 

  Hide contents

Krios (paraphrased)

If you have a form of manipulating your Identity and a form of healing, are you able to shapeshift or even evolve your body like growing wings?

 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You'd have to do some real work on your Spiritweb to make that work. It'd take more work than you're implying, but the [singers] for instance are doing this. It'll take a little more work, it's not just blanking your Identity. Hemalurgy would make it very easy, but also very evil. But what you want to achieve is possible.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/390/#e12722

 

That's not about hemalurgic spikes being flexible, that's about the fact that you can steal certain traits from animals/people and spike them into an individual to make him change the form into something animal-like - likely what Chimeras are. Having Hemalurgic spikes shouldn't just give your soul flexibility - your soul is damaged now and pierced in all 3 realms. Take a fabric and stretch it, then nail that fabric and stretch it again - the holes made by nails will now widen and damage the fabric more and nails themself will limit the way fabric can be stretched.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

They already have all three, in F-Gold, a lot of Health stored up in a Goldmind, and a specific Self-Perception. I understood the "specific set of circumstances" to mean the 'possible something more' you're talking about, which given the context Brandon said it in is most likely to do with a Human becoming a Singer, and that is what I was saying probably doesn't apply to what we're trying to see if the Kandra can do.

Yes, the "specific set of circumstances" is about a person becoming a Singer. But this has wider consequences - it's about a person changing their form beyond what their current form is capable of. Human changing into a singer is almost equally as hard as Kandra changing into a dog while having human bones. Kandra's form is tied to the bones they wear. That's why I said this also applies to Kandra. While the "specific set of circumstances" might mean a very hard to achieve levels of self-perception (plus stuff like attracting spren, hearing rhythms in the case of human changing into a singer, which doesn't matter in our case of Kandra) or might be something a bit more - what? I don't know. But Kandra normally can't shapeshift to a dog form while wearing human bones, giving him healing might overcome that, or something else might be needed. Both options are possible.

26 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

 And Brandon says it should give them a unique edge as Cognitive Shadows, where they wouldn't have access to bones.

You've already admitted that Brandon didn't say that, and that's extrapolation on your part. The unique edge is about self-perception, which Cognitive Shadows suffers a lot from, as they are susceptible to not only their self-perception, but also perception of other people - like Kelsier feeling pain because he thinks that's what he should feel, or sprens/Returned being influenced by thoughts of other people. Kandra would be better at adapting to this environment, not necessarily changing shape at will, but this will help them shapeshifting as well.

32 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I can't imagine something so Psychological as an 'Ideal Self' to be tied to your body so specifically, especially for beings who can change bodies as easily as clothes. And Brandon says it should give them a unique edge as Cognitive Shadows, where they wouldn't have access to bones. He also says someone else could learn it, so it can't be tied to changing bodies at all. The Ideal Self is a Spiritual attribute that has to be filtered through the mind to affect the body, I think centuries' worth of practice being other people while also mainting a true identity the entire time should let them change their Self-Perception as they please, and therefore affect their Ideal Self

The best way to explain what Brandon was meaning about "mental training, someone else could learn this" is Warbreaker spoiler WoB:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher Explains Some Things, but Leaves Some Things Hidden

I'm worried about leaving Vivenna's two questions unanswered. One is pretty obvious—how Vasher can hide how he looks—but the other is unintuitive. I wish I could explain better in the book, as I said above, but I decided in the end to just leave it hanging. It's a bit of a violation of Sanderson's First Law, but not a big one. The reason I feel I can get away with it is because Vasher didn't use his nature as a Returned to solve any problems. It is more a flavoring for his character than it is important to him getting out of danger or fixing things. He could have done everything he needed to in this book without being Returned. So I feel it's okay not to explain why he can be Returned and not die when he gives away his Breaths.

Can Vivenna change her appearance more? She can indeed. She could actually stoke that fragment of a divine Breath inside of her and start glowing like a Returned. She can't change her physical features to look like someone else, but she can change her age, her height (within reason), and her body shape (to an extent). It takes practice.

And yes, the scraggly miscreant is how Vasher sees himself. Not noble and Returned, which is part of how he suppresses his divine Breath.

Events in the second book may change that.

Warbreaker Annotations (Aug. 1, 2011)

This is what people can achieve (with the use of some investiture - not healing). Not changing shapes to look like someone else, but looking a bit taller, older, different hair color, but they are always themself. Hoid does it. But normally, people can't just become someone else. Kandra are better at it - they can change bones and look like someone else. Kandra has mental training on self-perception that hardly any can rival.

Now add healing to a person who is already a master of self-perception. If mastering your self-perception is the "a specific set of circumstances" and "do some real work on your Spiritweb", then you can do a lot with healing. Kandra has much easier to become masters of self-perception, because of their nature, and they would be able to do even more with their body - like changing into an animal form while having human bones.

But if this is not it and there is something else needed for very drastic changes to the body, which I'm talking about (not simply gaining more muscles), then I don't know what it can be. I don't even arguing that this is the case, I'm just presenting different possibilities as they are, to make discussion more interesting.

Remember, Kandra can't shapeshift at will, they need bones. It might be another option to consider, because bones have different identity and connections than Kandra, self-perception doesn't work on them, and Kandra can't include them as part of themself, and you can't "heal" them into bones of someone else, or something else (like changing bones of a human into bones of some animal). Identity might prevent it. A person wanting to change his form into a Singer form can do it, because his bones are his. But this is another option to consider. It might not be the case because of transplantation and healing:

Spoiler

Kurkistan

How does Feruchemical gold interact with organ transplants?

Brandon Sanderson

In an interesting way.

Kurkistan

In a good interesting or bad interesting?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on the situation.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

I believe "the situation" mentioned in the WoB is if the person views the transplanted organ as a part of his body, or sees it as someone else's body - which would mean Kandra can perceive bones they're wearing as part of themself and change form into an animal one with lots of healing (which would change their bones as well).

Now I'm realizing that when I was writing this: 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't know, WoBs say about "a specific set of circumstances" and "do some real work on your Spiritweb", so there might be something more to it than just self-perception and tons of health, or it is just very hard to have such different self-perception to turn into an animal or some hybrid. But with some less ambitious cases, this will work. Plus being highly invested would help with that too:

I literally thought that you want a Kandra to turn into an animal, like a dog, not just in the physical form they have, but mentally and spiritually as well. Just fully turning into a dog. I should stop and think if that even makes sense. My brain doesn't work today...

Now I don't really have any point to show, it just fun discussion, so I'm arguing for the sake of arguing right now  

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I literally thought that you want a Kandra to turn into an animal, like a dog, not just in the physical form they have, but mentally and spiritually as well. Just fully turning into a dog.

I was just about to say, what you said about a Human becoming a Singer needing specific circumstances also affecting this thought experiment, the Kandra isn't actually becoming a dog and losing the ability to shapeshift and such, just that if they changed their Self-Perception and tapped Gold, they could instantly become a dog physically. I was literally coming up with the argument as I was reading your response, how funny that we both ended up on the same point.

You did however make some very strong points that are still applicable, like the bones having prior Connections and Identity which could mess up the process. I suggest going through your previous arguments and seeing which still apply, so we can focus on those. I'd do it myself, but I've had a LONG day and the last thing I want to do right now is comb through our discussion of the past several hours. I'd still like to theorise what could be possible for a Kandra with Investiture Healing though (Should we switch the discussion to a Kandra Radiant who has access to Dalinar so we don't have to worry about giving the Kandra F-Gold and how they'd get so much Health stored up and can just talk about how the mechanics of this would work, and then work backwards to apply to it to Feruchemy?)

[cometaryorbit]

I don't think that this sort of thing is anywhere near as easy as it sounds - otherwise everyone with f-Gold would end up taller / stronger / more attractive etc. It's not enough to want to be some way, it requires self-perception as actually already being that way.

This could have some very weird interactions with kandra. If they get too deep into their roles, could they start to lose their kandra traits and become human (or whatever they're imitating)?

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

26 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

This could have some very weird interactions with kandra. If they get too deep into their roles, could they start to lose their kandra traits and become human (or whatever they're imitating)?

That's exactly what we're trying to figure out if they can do deliberately

[cometaryorbit]

12 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That's exactly what we're trying to figure out if they can do deliberately

See, I kind of think that you can't do any of this deliberately ... almost by definition.

Because if you are trying to change into X, you are necessarily acknowledging that your self-identity currently isn't X.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

50 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

See, I kind of think that you can't do any of this deliberately ... almost by definition.

Because if you are trying to change into X, you are necessarily acknowledging that your self-identity currently isn't X.

You have a point. I'm starting to wonder if a Kandra could just fully become human that way, internalising the character they're playing so hard that they become an actual bona-fide human, like you said. Seems plausible, to be honest. 

[cometaryorbit]

45 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

You have a point. I'm starting to wonder if a Kandra could just fully become human that way, internalising the character they're playing so hard that they become an actual bona-fide human, like you said. Seems plausible, to be honest. 

I think it's entirely possible in theory but not in practice. You'd need a deep "method actor" kandra keeping one human role for a very long time in the Era 1 style - rather than the briefer taking of roles we see in Era 2 - who also had access to f-Gold... which wasn't available then (or, really, even in Era 2 - there don't seem to be f-Gold medallions, so you'd need Paalm's special Hemalurgy knowledge, and Trell talking to you would probably prevent you from seeing yourself as just a normal human).

And even the Era 1 long term kandra were very Contract focused... wouldn't they have to give that up to really see themselves as human?

The only way I could see it happening is if this kandra who somehow had f-Gold took a human role, and then developed deeper and deeper emotional bonds (fell in love or adopted a child or something) and spent years or decades thinking of their real kandra-identity less and less, slowly becoming the identity they'd assumed.