Who is the God of Who (whom???) ~SA Spoilers~

[Nogo]

Ok, so I found another anomaly dealing with this subject at hand.  First, just as an appetizer, I want to highlight Raboniel's discussion about surges with Venli.  She highlights that all surges are functional from Honor and Cultivation and that the human's 10th surge isn't a true surge because that is only of Honor.

Main Course: "Radiants of the high oaths might be able to access their powers. And Honor’s Truest Surge, the Surge of Binding and Oaths, could still work." RoW pg 507.  This is Sibling talking to Navani just after the tower first gets corrupted.  If this surge is Honor and Honor's alone according to two separate and ancient sources...  Wouldn't it seem like Honor was involved with Ishar's initial Bondsmith powers on Ashyn.  I'm not an expert, but I believe that to make connections a Bondsmith has to use Adhesion and if Adhesion is only of Honor... then Honor was involved with humans on Ashyn.   That's my logic train.  

My head hurts again ~

[alder24]

44 minutes ago, Nogo said:

Ok, so I found another anomaly dealing with this subject at hand.  First, just as an appetizer, I want to highlight Raboniel's discussion about surges with Venli.  She highlights that all surges are functional from Honor and Cultivation and that the human's 10th surge isn't a true surge because that is only of Honor.

Main Course: "Radiants of the high oaths might be able to access their powers. And Honor’s Truest Surge, the Surge of Binding and Oaths, could still work." RoW pg 507.  This is Sibling talking to Navani just after the tower first gets corrupted.  If this surge is Honor and Honor's alone according to two separate and ancient sources...  Wouldn't it seem like Honor was involved with Ishar's initial Bondsmith powers on Ashyn.  I'm not an expert, but I believe that to make connections a Bondsmith has to use Adhesion and if Adhesion is only of Honor... then Honor was involved with humans on Ashyn.   That's my logic train.  

My head hurts again ~

Not really. Firstly, on Roshar people call anything that is connection manipulation Bondsmithing. Secondly, Raboniel is biased. But there is something going on there.

Spoiler

LettersWords

The Fused only use nine of the Surges (they don't use Adhesion), and Raboniel describes Adhesion as "not a true Surge." Does this mean, in its original form on Ashyn, Surgebinding had no equivalent to Adhesion, and it was created by Honor later?

Brandon Sanderson

That is a valid way of theorizing, and I would encourage you to go that direction. Raboniel is biased. So take those two sentences as separate things. Do be aware she is very, very biased, but also your theorizing could bear fruit going that direction.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Argent

In the Syl interlude in Rhythm of War, she is speaking with Dalinar about his powers and the things those powers have done in the past. And what she says is "a Bondsmith bound other Surges". First of all, what other Surges?

Brandon Sanderson

One potential interpretation for you on this, remember they use Surge and spren sometimes interchangeably in-world. Just making you aware of that.

Argent

Yeah I'm aware of that. Bound other Surges....

Brandon Sanderson

That might be what she's talking about. I'm not guaranteeing it.

Argent

Then the term Bondsmith. To me it seems like she's talking about Ishar and the Ashyn stuff. So would they use Bondsmith to describe him in that place?

Argent

And that would be maybe the power of Connection, the way Lightweaving is the power of illusion?

Brandon Sanderson

So one other thing to keep aware of in the cosmere - for instance they call "Lightweaving" any illusion-based magic working on the same fundamentals. And so you could argue - and people will use it that way in-world - that Bondsmithing is both an order [of Knights Radiant] and a power that exists outside the order.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. And for instance, there were not Elsecallers to get people between Ashyn and Roshar, but on Roshar they would explain what happened there as Elsecalling. Does that make sense?

Argent

I mean, as much as these things make sense, yes.

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

[Nogo]

I am going to guess that the bias is "Adhesion is not a true surge" and that it actually is a true surge regardless of Honor or not.  Which makes a lot of sense actually.

Argent's comment at the end "I mean, as much as these things make sense, yes."  Is hilarious btw.

Seems like the consensus is that Honor was not there on Ashyn.   Also seems like when people imply as such in WoB he shuts that down (obliquely) pretty well.   My remaining question/concern about this is.... where did the investiture come from on Ashyn?  

[alder24]

On 5.05.2023 at 9:47 PM, Nogo said:

I am going to guess that the bias is "Adhesion is not a true surge" and that it actually is a true surge regardless of Honor or not.  Which makes a lot of sense actually.

Argent's comment at the end "I mean, as much as these things make sense, yes."  Is hilarious btw.

Seems like the consensus is that Honor was not there on Ashyn.   Also seems like when people imply as such in WoB he shuts that down (obliquely) pretty well.   My remaining question/concern about this is.... where did the investiture come from on Ashyn?  

Here is the kicker. Honor kind of WAS there on Ashyn and is there today. The same as Cultivation and Odium. Shards are bound to the whole planetary system, not just one planet. That's why Odium is on Roshar today despite being bonded by Honor to Braize. Shard's presence is mostly focused on a single planet, Roshar, but their investiture and influence permeates the whole planetary system.

Investiture on Ashyn came from Shard of course. Which one we don't know, likely Odium. But currently Ashyn has a Cultivation-based magic system there, because Cultivation visited the planet at some point in the past personally (was it before Ashyn destruction or after, we don't know).

Spoiler

ZuperzubS

Hi Brandon, just to double check my understanding of things, Odium is still mostly bound on Braize right? Just that he can influence things on Roshar because of proximity?

Brandon Sanderson

I treat Braize, Ashyn, and Roshar as if they were almost one entity for a lot of Identity/Connection related issues. It's more than proximity, though proximity leads to it. We on Earth, I feel, would consider the moon and even Mars to be "ours" so to speak, part of our family of planets. Odium's binding, and that of the Heralds/Fused encompasses Roshar and Ashyn. There are some subtle distinctions, but for the most part, being bound on Braize is the same as being bound on Roshar.

mraize7

So Shadesmar is only from Roshar or from the three planets??

Brandon Sanderson

You can reach all three through Shadesmar, with a much shorter trip than to other systems. But the map we provide so far is only Roshar.

Phantine

Have you come up with a name for their star? It'd be easier to refer to all three by calling it the [???]ar/[sol]ar system instead of the Rosharan/[Earth]an system like we do now.

Brandon Sanderson

By people in world, it's being referred to as the Rosharan system. This is kind of confusing to us, because we focus on the suns to orient what makes a system. But in the cosmere, they travel directly to planets, and so the biggest trading planet becomes the source of naming conventions in most places. I agree it's a little confusing for us, but I believe it's the way it would naturally arise for them.

Uth-gnar

On the topic of the Rosharan solar system, do we get to learn about the significance of the 10 gas giants? We’re they there before the shards ever made their home there? Is that the ‘origin’ of the significance, in the context of the cosmere's natural laws?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, I'm afraid.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 7, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

You have talked about writing a book about Ashyn, the first planet in the Rosharan system. You said that they have a magic system based on disease, but they are currently without a Shard. Can you tell us what the source of that magic system is?

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of the magic systems in the cosmere, I kind of in my head differentiate kind of the primary worlds and the secondary worlds. And even on the secondary worlds, there is magic. And any place that a Shard has been in presence is gonna leave behind an aftereffect, but it's not always that. I would call most of the magic on Ashyn Cultivation-based, most likely. And Cultivation's in the system, but has only briefly been to that planet. But it doesn't mean that... basically, it's kind of the level of Investiture. If you go to Scadrial, on Scadrial, you're gonna have a high percentage of the population, cosmereologically, that are gonna have access to one of the Hemalurgic [Metallic] arts, right? Same thing on Roshar. And indeed, the people are going to be Invested on a level that is beyond the others. This is my in-world canon reason that people just don't come down with colds very often or have tooth decay very often, and things like that. On the primary Shardworlds, we're talking about people who are just naturally, highly Invested.

All the other worlds, though, you're still gonna have the occasional pop-up of magic, here and there. You're still gonna have effects of being in the cosmere, and things like that. Just much smaller chances. And the magic's probably going to be less likely to be planet-destroying potential, and things like that, like happened on Ashyn.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 23, 2021)

 

If there is a system without any Shard's presence now or ever in the past, investiture can still manifest itself naturally as there are investiture remnants of Adonalsium - now splintered into 16 parts and associated with every Shard. Invested arts, magic systems, can still arise there naturally, but on a much smaller scale than on a major Shardwords like Roshar. Investiture there will still come from Spiritual Realm, very indirectly from Shards.

 

Edit:

@Nogo I've found the WoB about Heralds age:

Spoiler

Questioner

I have a bit of a problem with the first Desolation timeline. I'm wondering how old were the Heralds when they became Heralds.

Brandon Sanderson

The age that you would see them as when you met them. They basically are the age they look. When they became Heralds, they are the age that they appeared.

Questioner

So they were like in their younger middle age?

Brandon Sanderson

Some of them. I mean Ishar is older.

Questioner

So that means that the entire timeline of the first Desolation happened within a single lifetime?

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of the ancient chronologies are wrong and you won't get the actual answers until the Heralds themselves explain it in their flashback sequences in the back five. 

Questioner

You've said that the Heralds came over from Ashyn. 

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Okay. How old were they then?

Brandon Sanderson

Younger than they were when they became Heralds.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

It points more to the fact that Heralds weren't ageless nor immortal before becoming Heralds, that they did age. It suggests more that they could age normally. But tbf that isn't that strong proof - they might have achieved some level of agelessness that only slows down aging, and the statement "Younger than they were when they became Heralds." would still be true.

Spoiler

Dirigible (paraphrased)

Did Demoux achieve immortality by manipulating his Connection age?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Demoux uses the same method as most of the Seventeenth Shard. That method slows aging by a lot, but doesn't stop it completely.

Arcanum Unbounded Fort Collins signing (Nov. 29, 2016)

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by alder24

[cometaryorbit]

I agree that the events seem like they'd take more than one generation.

It seems like the Ashynite refugees arrived in pretty bad shape, and Shinovar is large. Occupying and using its resources enough for expansion beyond to make sense doesn't sound like a one-generation thing. Exploration, sure; actual settlement or conquest is another matter.

Plus, the spren had to get familiar with humans and start preferring them to singers.

Also, the Oathpact didn't start immediately upon the human-singer war: in OB Ch 38, the Stormfather says that it was because humans couldn't defeat the Fused being repeatedly reborn. So it had to be after the initial war, after the dead singers from that war became the Fused, and after the continuing Fused conflict went on long enough for it to become clear that humanity couldn't win the war unless something drastic changed.

Finally, the Oathpact was supposed to be permanent (no cyclical Desolations), so what were the Honorblades intended for?

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[alder24]

9 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Finally, the Oathpact was supposed to be permanent (no cyclical Desolations), so what were the Honorblades intended for?

Honorblades disappear with Heralds death or when they return to Braize. I think Honorblades were not only made to aid them in fights during First Desolation, but also for Heralds to fight with them in Braize. Shardblades can cut sprens (OB, Kholinar palace, Syl cut corrupted painspren), and spren can be hurt in CR (Notum, RoW). Also Vorin religion teaches about eternal fight to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls, I think there might me a grain of truth in that story - Heralds were meant to fight for eternity with Fused cognitive form and Honorblades were made for this. Only Heralds would have weapons on Braize, Fused and Voidspren would not have anything like that, nor access to their surges - they were binded in their cognitive form in CR and the planet itself is a barren wasteland with no life on it - which means no weapons to manifest in CR. Honorblades would have given Heralds a significant edge in fighting. But as it was proven, 10 people can’t fight a mob forever.

[Nogo]

14 hours ago, alder24 said:

Honorblades disappear with Heralds death or when they return to Braize. I think Honorblades were not only made to aid them in fights during First Desolation, but also for Heralds to fight with them in Braize. Shardblades can cut sprens (OB, Kholinar palace, Syl cut corrupted painspren), and spren can be hurt in CR (Notum, RoW). Also Vorin religion teaches about eternal fight to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls, I think there might me a grain of truth in that story - Heralds were meant to fight for eternity with Fused cognitive form and Honorblades were made for this. Only Heralds would have weapons on Braize, Fused and Voidspren would not have anything like that, nor access to their surges - they were binded in their cognitive form in CR and the planet itself is a barren wasteland with no life on it - which means no weapons to manifest in CR. Honorblades would have given Heralds a significant edge in fighting. But as it was proven, 10 people can’t fight a mob forever.

All this.  And most likely the Honorblades were bestowed before the Oathpact.   My reasoning here is that the Heralds claim that they were not Radiant (and by the I make the presumption that they never bonded spren, Nale's future notwithstanding) but yet Ishar could make the Oathpact.  That leads me to think that the Heralds were granted Honorblades to fight the OG war against the singers.  Which then makes me wonder if perhaps more people had Honorblades but they were mortal and their blades disappeared after their deaths.... random brain wandering, sorry.

I just finished up RoW again and throughout the story there are tangent references to Ashyn and the "Gods" etc etc.  But they are all based on perception.  There's no real solid statement in there (at least that I saw) that wasn't biased or at least very potentially biased in such a way that we could find the real truth.   Even when Odium claims to be the human's god on Ashyn... there is nothing to say that our above general consensus of Odium providing power but not being worshipped isn't the case.  RoW has so much cosmere stuff floating around in it.  It's a lot to sort through.

[Treamayne]

On 5/7/2023 at 9:33 PM, cometaryorbit said:

It seems like the Ashynite refugees arrived in pretty bad shape, and Shinovar is large.

Well, on a 0.7 cosmere standard diameter planet, is one country really large enough to hold a significant portion of the population of a planet? Even if Ashyn had experienced >70% death from <whatever happened> (comparable to those killed in HoA by Ruin's antics), I can guess that 30% the population of (for example) Asia wouldn't fit on Madagascar (possibly comparably sized country - by eyeball not math). Also we don't know how many different peoples and cultures were among the refugees - which would increase the natural inclination to "spread out." ("<Nationality/Culture> destroyed our planet - I'm moving over the mountains to get away from those crazy people")

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Nogo said:

My reasoning here is that the Heralds claim that they were not Radiant (and by the I make the presumption that they never bonded spren, Nale's future notwithstanding) but yet Ishar could make the Oathpact.

Yes, except for Nale, none of them joined Radiant orders. But Radiants and spren bonding humans granting them Surges came after Oathpact was made. 

9 hours ago, Nogo said:

Which then makes me wonder if perhaps more people had Honorblades but they were mortal and their blades disappeared after their deaths.... random brain wandering, sorry.

Very highly unlikely. Honorblade are different and are said to have powers beyond that of a Shardblade. There is something more going on with Honorblades that we don't know about yet.

 

5 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Well, on a 0.7 cosmere standard diameter planet, is one country really large enough to hold a significant portion of the population of a planet? Even if Ashyn had experienced >70% death from <whatever happened> (comparable to those killed in HoA by Ruin's antics), I can guess that 30% the population of (for example) Asia wouldn't fit on Madagascar (possibly comparably sized country - by eyeball not math). Also we don't know how many different peoples and cultures were among the refugees - which would increase the natural inclination to "spread out." ("<Nationality/Culture> destroyed our planet - I'm moving over the mountains to get away from those crazy people")

Yes, and who said that they didn't come with weapons and technology surpassing that of Singers? Ancient Singers looked quite peaceful in Venli's vision, living in harmony with the planet, shaping their tool from stone, not metal, they might not know the art of war and quickly get overrun by overly aggressive humans, who came with steel.

[cometaryorbit]

.

8 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Well, on a 0.7 cosmere standard diameter planet, is one country really large enough to hold a significant portion of the population of a planet? Even if Ashyn had experienced >70% death from <whatever happened> (comparable to those killed in HoA by Ruin's antics), I can guess that 30% the population of (for example) Asia wouldn't fit on Madagascar (possibly comparably sized country - by eyeball not math). Also we don't know how many different peoples and cultures were among the refugees - which would increase the natural inclination to "spread out." ("<Nationality/Culture> destroyed our planet - I'm moving over the mountains to get away from those crazy people")

Hmmm. I wasn't thinking the refugees were "a significant portion", I was thinking things were far worse.

Kind of like HoA, yes... but that wasn't a 70% death rate, it was >99.8% at least in the North (Final Empire population was on the order of 100 million; 1/5 of the Originators were Terris and we know there were 40,000 Terris partway through HoA ... minus however many died before the Catacendre. So 200,000 max.)

The Ashyn refugees arrived with ash around them and actually burned, both them and their livestock. To me that sounds like they barely escaped - it doesnt sound like they had a lot of time to set it up (and WoB makes it sound like it was one super big Elsecalling). So I doubt they had 100 million, or even 10 million, people all nicely lined up for one big Elsecalling.

Also, Shinovar is large. 1.4 million square kilometers according to https://www.17thshard.com/forum/blogs/entry/634-roshar-physical-characteristics-and-areas/ .

And it's not just large, it's vastly more suitable to humans than the rest of Roshar. The rest of Roshar is not very attractive to expand into. This is another reason this feels like more than one generation to me - humans would need time to learn how to live in non-Shinovar Roshar before they could effectively invade it. If humans just swept over the continent starting from an Earthlike environment, they'd just get destroyed by the weather in Eastern Roshar. I think it can't have been one big invasion but a much slower process.

I actually kind of think the invasion wasn't the initiating incident at all - the characters in OB just assume that because they are all concerned with the coalition and so the Alethi history of invasions is front and center in all their minds. I think it's much more likely that the 'spren/singer betrayal' happened first, the singers turned to Odium in response to that, humans chose Honor or vice versa in response to that, and the human invasion of Roshar was actually part of a Honor/Odium proxy conflict (and that the supercontinent of Roshar was probably actually settled by humans over a pretty long time, maybe even centuries, after the imprisonment of the Fused had destroyed the singers' cohesion - giving humans time to learn how to build and farm and survive in Eastern Roshar.)

Edited May 9, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Treamayne]

It would really be ice to get some data on the Ashyn refugees. Even something like "tens of thousands" or "less than a million." I had the impression that Ashyn was 70-80% population lost and about half of the survivors emigrated (escaped) to Roshar. But even 10% of the planet's population would be significant numbers (also dependent on Ashyn's tech level at the time of the devastation; 10% of Earth's population in 1000 and 2000 are very different numbers)

6 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Also, Shinovar is large.

Yeah, I was not expecting it to be Peru-sized (wiki: Peru has a total land area of 1,379,999 km² and a total water area of 5,000 km²) and they are also probably similar in Habitable land (both have lots of tall mountains in the East).

Until we get more data, conjecture is fairly moot. Maybe I'm just too cynical to think it would take more than few decades for Humanity to pull a Dalinar (OB Ch 19)

Spoiler

 “Why are we at war, Brother?”

“This again?” Dalinar said. “Look, it’s not so complicated. Can’t you remember how it was back when we started?”

“Remind me.”

“Well,” Dalinar said, wagging his bent knife. “We looked at this place here, this kingdom, and we realized, ‘Hey, all these people have stuff .’ And we figured … hey, maybe we should have that stuff. So we took it.”

“Oh Dalinar,” Sadeas said, chuckling. “You are a gem.”

[cometaryorbit]

On 5/9/2023 at 8:51 PM, Treamayne said:

It would really be ice to get some data on the Ashyn refugees. Even something like "tens of thousands" or "less than a million." I had the impression that Ashyn was 70-80% population lost and about half of the survivors emigrated (escaped) to Roshar. But even 10% of the planet's population would be significant numbers (also dependent on Ashyn's tech level at the time of the devastation; 10% of Earth's population in 1000 and 2000 are very different numbers)

Yeah, I was not expecting it to be Peru-sized (wiki: Peru has a total land area of 1,379,999 km² and a total water area of 5,000 km²) and they are also probably similar in Habitable land (both have lots of tall mountains in the East).

Until we get more data, conjecture is fairly moot. Maybe I'm just too cynical to think it would take more than few decades for Humanity to pull a Dalinar (OB Ch 19)

Numbers would be great. I just have a hard time seeing it as being in the tens of millions or more, if it was sufficiently last-minute that they arrived with burns and ash still in the air.

Ashyn's tech level couldn't have been very high.

(White Sand/Mistborn)

Spoiler

Taldain and Scadrial are the most advanced cosmere worlds. They were hitting early industrial or nearly industrial a very long time before "current" (White Sand / Alendi) but still thousands of years after the Ashyn events.

There might have been large cities, but more like Ancient Rome than anything modern.

Re cynical: it's not about intent, but capability. The human societies we see on Roshar have had a long time to learn how to live with the highstorm cycle - not just city placement and building design, but how to farm Rosharan plants, which are very different from ours and presumably Shinovar's. Roshar just isn't very habitable to humans who don't have that accumulated knowledge. And fighting a war against singers who are well adapted to that landscape and do have thousands of years of accumulated knowledge on living there... I don't think that would end well, even with a massive tech advantage.

Settling an area the size of Roshar, with this harsh of conditions, would probably take more than a few decades even with no opposition. No further help or population could be coming from the homeland, unlike the British Empire in Australia or North America. And the Roshar supercontinent is larger than either - it's more Asia sized.

[Treamayne]

3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Settling an area the size of Roshar, with this harsh of conditions, would probably take more than a few decades even with no opposition. No further help or population could be coming from the homeland, unlike the British Empire in Australia or North America. And the Roshar supercontinent is larger than either - it's more Asia sized.

Concur - very true.

But I was not alluding that Humans settled all of non-Shin Roshar within a generation (and we have no indications that the early "desolations" were continent-wide either). I mean that, to me, I would have expected humans to start crossing the mountains to "find new frontiers to settle" within a few decades of arrival. We only "know" that the desolations involved all of humanity - but if all the humans were within, say, 50 miles of the land granted to them (whatever the size of that was - probably not the same borders as "modern" Shinovar) then the first desolation could very well have been the same "scale" as an Alethi-Herdaz border skirmish. 

This would also explain the Eila Stele - survivors from the Singer "tribe" that first warred with humans leaving their assigned territory wrote it as a warrning to other tribes of Singers across the continent.

Then, with each Desolation, the Humans had taken more area (and lost more tech) until eventually humanity had covered the continent. 

It may also explain the strata in Urithiru if the tower was a singer construction - even the Oathgates could have been in place before humanity covered Roshar. 

[Nogo]

27 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

This would also explain the Eila Stele - survivors from the Singer "tribe" that first warred with humans leaving their assigned territory wrote it as a warrning to other tribes of Singers across the continent.

I like this thought and definitely got a very personal vibe out of the Elia Stele vs a large encompassing historical document.

29 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

But I was not alluding that Humans settled all of non-Shin Roshar within a generation (and we have no indications that the early "desolations" were continent-wide either). I mean that, to me, I would have expected humans to start crossing the mountains to "find new frontiers to settle" within a few decades of arrival. We only "know" that the desolations involved all of humanity - but if all the humans were within, say, 50 miles of the land granted to them (whatever the size of that was - probably not the same borders as "modern" Shinovar) then the first desolation could very well have been the same "scale" as an Alethi-Herdaz border skirmish. 

This makes sense... but we do know that the fuzed were created at generally all the same time.  If the fuzed were really the "lighteyes" of singer civilization... I think the border war theory would be too small to fill the ranks of the fuzed.  Honestly, I don't think you're wrong with your theory here... it seems weird to have the huge continent of Roshar all fighting (pre-oathgates) within a couple generations of the Ashyn migration.  Idk, I'm having a hard time meshing the information we have on hand right now.  There are a lot of fuzed and it seems unlikely they were just a small section of signer society 7000 years ago.  Or maybe that makes sense and the fuzed are the survivors of the first tribes of singers that humans bulldozed over on in their ever expanding sense of worldly entitlement... So my overall thesis here is... idk, but I like these ideas and thinkings.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Nogo said:

This makes sense... but we do know that the fuzed were created at generally all the same time.  If the fuzed were really the "lighteyes" of singer civilization... I think the border war theory would be too small to fill the ranks of the fuzed.  Honestly, I don't think you're wrong with your theory here... it seems weird to have the huge continent of Roshar all fighting (pre-oathgates) within a couple generations of the Ashyn migration.  Idk, I'm having a hard time meshing the information we have on hand right now.  There are a lot of fuzed and it seems unlikely they were just a small section of signer society 7000 years ago.  Or maybe that makes sense and the fuzed are the survivors of the first tribes of singers that humans bulldozed over on in their ever expanding sense of worldly entitlement... So my overall thesis here is... idk, but I like these ideas and thinkings.

Based on this summary and our theorizing, my current head-canon (pending new information) looks a bit like this:

Spoiler

• Humans arrive on Roshar from Ashyn
• Decades pass
• Humans decide to expand beyond the borders they were granted
  • First Desolation
• Humans defeat the nearby tribe(s) and expand their borders
  • Eile Stele is written as a warning to other singer tribes
• Humans expand more, coming into conflict with other singer tribe(s)
  • Singers forge pact with Odium to become Fused
    • Possibly only a few at the start, adding more with each Desolation cycle
  • Second Desolation starts (also called "The Endless War")
• Time passes in constant intermittent Conflict
  • Ishar creates the Oathpact with Honor
  • Heralds bind the Fused to Braize
• Humanity continues to spread (since long periods separated the early desolations - but not the first and second, I think)
  • Fused realize the loophole and torture Heralds to return to Roshar
  • Humanity possibly comes to have settlements in most regions of Roshar during this period (if it lasted long enough)
• Third Desolation starts 
  • Spren begin to mimic the Honorblades, beginning to form the Radiants
• The rest of the cycles are as we know them - Desolations lasting 10-15 yrs each with an ever-decreasing period in between for humanity to recover and grow

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[cometaryorbit]

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Concur - very true.

But I was not alluding that Humans settled all of non-Shin Roshar within a generation (and we have no indications that the early "desolations" were continent-wide either). I mean that, to me, I would have expected humans to start crossing the mountains to "find new frontiers to settle" within a few decades of arrival. We only "know" that the desolations involved all of humanity - but if all the humans were within, say, 50 miles of the land granted to them (whatever the size of that was - probably not the same borders as "modern" Shinovar) then the first desolation could very well have been the same "scale" as an Alethi-Herdaz border skirmish.

Hm. That's possible, too. Still pretty different from the implied picture we get, but sounds more plausible.

There's still a possible problem, though. Stormfather in Ch 38 OB says that the Fused didn't originally "command the Surges", they were just unbeatable because they kept reincarnating. The Fused don't seem that numerous, so I think to be a civilization threat without Surgebinding, they must have commanded a pretty large and organized Singer effort. Otherwise they would just have been a continuous small-scale border conflict, not a real threat - they'd just constantly reincarnate and constantly get killed. (Assuming the human population was large enough that expansion outside Shinovar made sense.)

I think the borders would have to be the same as modern Shinovar - they're not just political borders, it's an area terraformed for humans as part of the initial bargain (or maybe literally teleported from Ashyn ... I used to think that, but the reference to burns and ash now makes me doubt that ... but either way it's been sharply distinct from the rest of Roshar since the time of the original arrival).

I wonder what the area right on the other side of the mountains from Shinovar is like. If it's drastically milder, maybe people would find reasons to expand before Shinovar became densely populated.

One obvious reason would be gemhearts, but if the land was as harsh for unprepared humans as I'm thinking, I don't think that would lead to full scale settlement - more like the first few decades of French efforts in Canada, which were more about fur trade than permanent settlement or conquest. Sure, that eventually led to colonization, but it took more than a generation. Also, a lot of European efforts to settle & maintain claims to the less obviously economically useful parts of the New World were driven by strategic competition with other European nations. Finally, Atlantic Canada was a lot less alien to France than Roshar would be to the Ashynite/proto-Shin humans.

Edited May 16, 2023 by cometaryorbit