Hemalurgic linchpins and kandra?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

How many blessings do you think a kandra could sustain without a linchpin?  We know Tensoon has 2 but I don't think we have seen more than that.  

Are blessings treated differently from normal spikes for shardic control and allomantic control? 

Do you think a kandra could physically hold all 8 spikes required to make the 4 blessings we know about?  Or do you think 2 is a max?  Tensoon didn't seem to see any downside to using a second blessing and described himself as being the most powerful kandra once he got just a second blessing.  

Do you think tensoon having a second blessing made him more susceptible to hemalurgic control than he would have been with just 1 blessing whether it be shardic control or allomantic?  

[Quantus he/him]

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

How many blessings do you think a kandra could sustain without a linchpin?  We know Tensoon has 2 but I don't think we have seen more than that.  

I could be wrong but I didnt think he ever had both sets "plugged in" to his spiritweb at the same time.

Quote

Are blessings treated differently from normal spikes for shardic control and allomantic control? 

Yes and no.  Per WOB, Kandra are harder to control by virtue of typically having only the Two Blessing spikes (we've never seen a normal one use additional blessing pairs), while Koloss and Inquisitors by definition have at least 4, so it's a weird example.  But (at the level of Era2 understanding) it takes four Spikes for a human to be controlled, but is proven to only take two for a Kandra.  Inquisitors and Koloss are both considered physiologically distinct from Human, but both by definition have at least that 4-spike threshold.  

Quote

Do you think a kandra could physically hold all 8 spikes required to make the 4 blessings we know about?  Or do you think 2 is a max?  Tensoon didn't seem to see any downside to using a second blessing and described himself as being the most powerful kandra once he got just a second blessing.  

No, or at least I think it would create a whole new Hemalurgic Construct that is just Also made from a Mistwraith.  We dont know if they'd need a Lynchpin spike at 4 or some other level since they dont start human, but they'd need one.  And it wouldnt be internally moveable like Kandra spikes normally are, since they couldnt survive any transition blimp from moving it. 

But if you could pull it off, you'd make some Uber-Kandra with a whole weird grab-bag of powers and abilities.   It just would be a whole new classification of Construct with some combination of traits and limitations.  It may or may not even be capable of Kandra Shapeshifting. And we could be talking several variants: an overdeveloped Koloss made from a Mistwraith, as well as a Kandra-Inquisitor with a Lynchpin, etc.

Quote

Do you think tensoon having a second blessing made him more susceptible to hemalurgic control than he would have been with just 1 blessing whether it be shardic control or allomantic?  

Only if both are plugged in at the same time, but then definitely yes. Per This WOB it's having only two spikes that makes them harder to control than other constructs

Edited April 24, 2023 by Quantus

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

How many blessings do you think a kandra could sustain without a linchpin?  We know Tensoon has 2 but I don't think we have seen more than that.  

Interesting question! I don't know if Kandra could go without a Linchpin spike, though we do know that their Bindpoints are flexible due to their shapeshifting.

I don't know if that would let them bypass the need for Linchpin spikes, but perhaps if they clumped all their spikes in one part of their body it could be done, since the whole need for a Linchpin spike is to coordinate the Hemalurgic spikes in different sections of the body.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Are blessings treated differently from normal spikes for shardic control and allomantic control? 

As far as we know currently, no. We know that an old Inquisitor spike was used to open Paalm up to Harmony's control though, so I'd be willing to bet that all Hemalurgic spikes have the same kind of effect when cracking open a Spiritweb.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do you think a kandra could physically hold all 8 spikes required to make the 4 blessings we know about?  Or do you think 2 is a max?  Tensoon didn't seem to see any downside to using a second blessing and described himself as being the most powerful kandra once he got just a second blessing.  

Oh, absolutely I think Kandra could take all four Blessings known to exist at once. In fact, I bet that a Kandra could potentially handle more spikes than a human could, though they'd perhaps need to alter their form to handle them better.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do you think tensoon having a second blessing made him more susceptible to hemalurgic control than he would have been with just 1 blessing whether it be shardic control or allomantic?  

Yes, 100%, having two Blessings made him more susceptible to Ruin's control. The more spikes a being has, the more holes there are in their Spiritweb to be invaded by external forces.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Trusk'our

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

How many blessings do you think a kandra could sustain without a linchpin?  We know Tensoon has 2 but I don't think we have seen more than that.  

It seems like 7 spikes is minimum, Inquisitors had 9 spikes minimum and linchpin doesn't have to hold a power. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was like 6 spikes that necessitate the presence of the linchpin.

4 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Are blessings treated differently from normal spikes for shardic control and allomantic control? 

 

Each Blessing is counted as 2 Hemalurgic spikes.

4 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do you think a kandra could physically hold all 8 spikes required to make the 4 blessings we know about?  Or do you think 2 is a max?  Tensoon didn't seem to see any downside to using a second blessing and described himself as being the most powerful kandra once he got just a second blessing.  

Yes, they can.

4 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do you think tensoon having a second blessing made him more susceptible to hemalurgic control than he would have been with just 1 blessing whether it be shardic control or allomantic?  

Yes. He had 4 spikes. I wanted to note here, he was the only Kandra that was controlled by Ruin, and forced to kill Sazed, others were just standing around shocked. But earlier KanPaar was said to be fully controlled by Ruin in Vin's chapter. WoB below clarifies this.

 

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

I could be wrong but I didnt think he ever had both sets "plugged in" to his spiritweb at the same time.

He did had both of them, HoA ch 39:

Quote

TenSoon lay down, commanding the skin of his shoulder to part, and absorbed the spikes into his body. He moved them through muscles and ligaments— dissolving several organs, then re-forming them with the spikes piercing them.
Immediately, he felt power wash through him. His body became stronger. It was more than the simple adding of muscles—he could do that by re-forming his body. No, this gave each muscle an extra innate strength, making them work much better, much more powerfully, than they would have otherwise.

[...]

He now had four spikes, two Blessings, and was one of the most powerful kandra alive.

And WoB:

Spoiler

Dalenthas

Was TenSoon more susceptible to Ruin's powers than the other Kandra because he took OreSeur's Blessings?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, he was. However, the Blessing of Presence actually enhanced his mind to make him more resistant, so they balanced out.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

[Quantus he/him]

9 minutes ago, alder24 said:

He did had both of them, HoA ch 39:

And WoB:

  Hide contents

Dalenthas

Was TenSoon more susceptible to Ruin's powers than the other Kandra because he took OreSeur's Blessings?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, he was. However, the Blessing of Presence actually enhanced his mind to make him more resistant, so they balanced out.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

Fascinating on two fronts: the description of dissolving the organs and reforming them around the spike, rather than forming them and still physically inserting into a Bind Point. And the idea that any Kandra with the Blessing of Presence is innately more resistant to Shardic Influence.  I wonder if that's what MeLaan has (or any others we've seen, for that matter), could be useful.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

@Quantus @Trusk'our @alder24

Thanks for the replies.  

So more spikes = more control no matter what though blessing of presence seems to somewhat balance it when using 2 sets.  

For shardic control I am curious.  Is it only ruin and now harmony that can get in that easily due to it being their system?  How many spikes do you think would be needed before some other random shards could control the kandra?  Would more spikes make you more susceptible to all control and allomantic manipulation or just open you up to the gods?  

I am a huge blessing of presence nerd due to the whole "harder to control thing".  I have some serious issues with the idea that agency can be yoinked away from anyone at any time.  But I LOVE kandra.

What are your thoughts on a kandra made with blessing spikes of Lerasium?  

This would offer just 2 spikes like normal as well as the benefits of all of the blessings.  Probably a colossal waste of Lerasium but in terms of building some mega kandra that isn't 100% open to shardic control it might be helpful. 

 

[alder24]

8 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

For shardic control I am curious.  Is it only ruin and now harmony that can get in that easily due to it being their system?

Other Shards can do that as well.

Spoiler

Cadmium (paraphrased)

We've seen someone with a Hemalurgic spike communicate or under the control of Ruin or Harmony... Can other Shards communicate or control those individuals?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. Good Question. Yes...  They can certainly communicate...

Cadmium (paraphrased)

To what extent?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not to the extent that Ruin did. The others could communicate but it'd be vague or faint, not as direct as Ruin was. He connects to us, well, them through the little bit of Preservation that he had or could touch. Because the spike pierces the soul.

Cadmium (paraphrased)

What about on other planets than Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It'd work the same way. but again probably vaguer or fainter. Might go unnoticed.

Shadows of Self Houston signing (Oct. 7, 2015)

 

9 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Would more spikes make you more susceptible to all control and allomantic manipulation or just open you up to the gods?  

All control and Allomancy

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

The Resolution

TenSoon and the other kandra resist Ruin and are able to pull the spikes from their shoulders. There are a couple of reasons why they can do this.

The power that Allomancers have to take control of them is the same power Ruin has. That control is exerted in the form of mental pressure through emotional Allomancy. As can be seen from Marsh's viewpoint, it is more than simply forcing the body to act as Ruin wishes. The extreme pressure on emotions changes the very way the mind thinks, tricking it into doing exactly what Ruin wants. The flaw in Hemalurgists leaves them open to this kind of manipulation.

Kandra, who only have two spikes, are far more difficult to control than koloss or Inquisitors. Vin is able to control TenSoon with ease in book two, but that's partially because he wanted her to do so. He would have been able to resist her. If she'd continued to push, she could have broken him, but it would have taken time.

Even Ruin's pressure wasn't enough to take control immediately. The kandra had a few moments during which they could overcome him and maintain their free will. Beyond that, they were in a cavern surrounded by metal ore in the walls, making it very difficult for Ruin to see what was going on and interfering with his ability to control them.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (May 13, 2010)

 

15 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I am a huge blessing of presence nerd due to the whole "harder to control thing".  I have some serious issues with the idea that agency can be yoinked away from anyone at any time.  But I LOVE kandra.

Modern Kandra have the Contract with Harmony, which prevents him from taking control unless some Kandra break the Contract. If Harmony breaks the Contract, it will make a hole in his spirit and leave him susceptible to attacks. Therefore it can't be "yoinked" anytime.

18 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

What are your thoughts on a kandra made with blessing spikes of Lerasium?  

Because Lerasium steals all attributes, it's likely that Lerasium Blessing would contain all Blessings in a single pair of spikes. And there are likely more than 4 Blessings, as ReLuur has pewter Blessings, which aren't standard.

 

[Quantus he/him]

 

2 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

 

What are your thoughts on a kandra made with blessing spikes of Lerasium?  

This would offer just 2 spikes like normal as well as the benefits of all of the blessings.  Probably a colossal waste of Lerasium but in terms of building some mega kandra that isn't 100% open to shardic control it might be helpful. 

 

Just for fun: Lerasium can be Any Blessing, but only one at a time and requires enough understanding for an Act of Intent to change between known effects: thematically a "Shapechanging" Blessing.  

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

17 minutes ago, Quantus said:

 

Just for fun: Lerasium can be Any Blessing, but only one at a time and requires enough understanding for an Act of Intent to change between known effects: thematically a "Shapechanging" Blessing.  

In the hemalurgic table it doesn't say any for Lerasium.  It states ALL.  Any is a thing for atium specifically.  I believe it would grant all known blessings and then some.  

27 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Other Shards can do that as well.

  Hide contents

Cadmium (paraphrased)

We've seen someone with a Hemalurgic spike communicate or under the control of Ruin or Harmony... Can other Shards communicate or control those individuals?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. Good Question. Yes...  They can certainly communicate...

Cadmium (paraphrased)

To what extent?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not to the extent that Ruin did. The others could communicate but it'd be vague or faint, not as direct as Ruin was. He connects to us, well, them through the little bit of Preservation that he had or could touch. Because the spike pierces the soul.

Cadmium (paraphrased)

What about on other planets than Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It'd work the same way. but again probably vaguer or fainter. Might go unnoticed.

Shadows of Self Houston signing (Oct. 7, 2015)

 

All control and Allomancy

  Hide contents

Brandon Sanderson

The Resolution

TenSoon and the other kandra resist Ruin and are able to pull the spikes from their shoulders. There are a couple of reasons why they can do this.

The power that Allomancers have to take control of them is the same power Ruin has. That control is exerted in the form of mental pressure through emotional Allomancy. As can be seen from Marsh's viewpoint, it is more than simply forcing the body to act as Ruin wishes. The extreme pressure on emotions changes the very way the mind thinks, tricking it into doing exactly what Ruin wants. The flaw in Hemalurgists leaves them open to this kind of manipulation.

Kandra, who only have two spikes, are far more difficult to control than koloss or Inquisitors. Vin is able to control TenSoon with ease in book two, but that's partially because he wanted her to do so. He would have been able to resist her. If she'd continued to push, she could have broken him, but it would have taken time.

Even Ruin's pressure wasn't enough to take control immediately. The kandra had a few moments during which they could overcome him and maintain their free will. Beyond that, they were in a cavern surrounded by metal ore in the walls, making it very difficult for Ruin to see what was going on and interfering with his ability to control them.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (May 13, 2010)

 

Modern Kandra have the Contract with Harmony, which prevents him from taking control unless some Kandra break the Contract. If Harmony breaks the Contract, it will make a hole in his spirit and leave him susceptible to attacks. Therefore it can't be "yoinked" anytime.

Because Lerasium steals all attributes, it's likely that Lerasium Blessing would contain all Blessings in a single pair of spikes. And there are likely more than 4 Blessings, as ReLuur has pewter Blessings, which aren't standard.

 

I am certainly interested in what a pewter blessing might look like.  Pewter steals physical feruchemy.  Is it possible ReLuur had metalminds in his truebody hidden and his blessing is composed of multiple feruchemical abilities?  

That said I feel like steel sight is granted specifically.  Does Kelsier retain steel allomancy or just the vision of the gods with that sike?  

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

That said I feel like steel sight is granted specifically.  Does Kelsier retain steel allomancy or just the vision of the gods with that sike?  

No Allomancy, just steelsight. 

2 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Is it possible ReLuur had metalminds in his truebody hidden and his blessing is composed of multiple feruchemical abilities?  

I think it's very unlikely. Blessings are made differently than normal spikes, and Kandra still don't know how to make them.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No Allomancy, just steelsight. 

I think it's very unlikely. Blessings are made differently than normal spikes, and Kandra still don't know how to make them.

So a steel spike can steel just the steelsight without the need to burn steel.  That is fascinating.  

I have wondered about awakening a lot and how so much of what we see awakened seems to be based on what the scholars saw off planet in attempts to duplicate other systems.  

I wonder if you had given a scholar bead of atium and allowed them to see that.  If it would have given them enough idea for a picture in their mind to awaken a glass eye or something that granted atium vision.  

Now I wonder if there is a hemalurgic bind point that can steel and grant future sight like atium. Or if it would be more of a spiritual sight like the way everything has an atium shadow but not everything moves. 

The possibilities only get bigger and better.  

[Quantus he/him]

9 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

In the hemalurgic table it doesn't say any for Lerasium.  It states ALL.  Any is a thing for atium specifically.  I believe it would grant all known blessings and then some.  

Well, that chart refers to making Inquisitors, specifically, so I was just idly speculating on what such a set of God-blessings might do for a Kandra.  Even then, the chart says it can "Steal All Attributes" but doesnt go into how those Abilities might be accessed later.  Steelsight is a good example of the hemalurgic usage not matching what it was stolen from, as an example.  Since WOB says Kandra can do more than most with Hemalurgy because they can reshuffle their Bind Points, a set of Lerasium Blessings would be the only way to charge a single spike set with the Abilities of multiple Blessings without taking on the Spiritweb instability issues that would come with 8 or more spikes. 

 

1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So a steel spike can steel just the steelsight without the need to burn steel.  That is fascinating.  

Inquisitors had to sleep more than normal, I suspect that's to supplement Investiture going to support the ongoing effects like that permanent steel-sight.  

 

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So a steel spike can steel just the steelsight without the need to burn steel.  That is fascinating.  

No stealing, it just replaces his eye, changing his body around the spike and the way he perceives the world. The spike staples his soul to the body, that's likely all what it does.

Spoiler

Questioner

In Bands of Mourning, we learned that the Sovereign, who they confused as being the Lord Ruler, came after the Catacendre. [He] was their god, was their king and god. And then Kelsier looking for a string. Is the spike somehow connecting Kelsier's soul to Spook's body.

Brandon Sanderson

No, good question. It is connecting his soul with his body, his current body, but it is not Spook's body. That's a great theory.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

9 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I wonder if you had given a scholar bead of atium and allowed them to see that.  If it would have given them enough idea for a picture in their mind to awaken a glass eye or something that granted atium vision.  

Hard to say. Returned already "peek" into the Spiritual Realm and see the future, but in a very limited way. I think at best you could replicate this, but it would require massive amounts of Breaths, and a type 4 object.

11 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Now I wonder if there is a hemalurgic bind point that can steel and grant future sight like atium. Or if it would be more of a spiritual sight like the way everything has an atium shadow but not everything moves. 

Stealing Atium future sight? No, but stealing Atium allomancy? Yes. There is Fortune, which you can steal. Most future sight are working based on Fortune, which can be stolen with chromium. Every person has the attribute of Fortune. So yes, you can steal fortune from people, but it won't give you Atium future sight, it will give you permanent F-chromium (which is Fortune storing). Keep in mind, Fortune that people have access to is more like a gut feeling, not a real future sight.

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No stealing, it just replaces his eye, changing his body around the spike and the way he perceives the world. The spike staples his soul to the body, that's likely all what it does.

  Hide contents

Questioner

In Bands of Mourning, we learned that the Sovereign, who they confused as being the Lord Ruler, came after the Catacendre. [He] was their god, was their king and god. And then Kelsier looking for a string. Is the spike somehow connecting Kelsier's soul to Spook's body.

Brandon Sanderson

No, good question. It is connecting his soul with his body, his current body, but it is not Spook's body. That's a great theory.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

Hard to say. Returned already "peek" into the Spiritual Realm and see the future, but in a very limited way. I think at best you could replicate this, but it would require massive amounts of Breaths, and a type 4 object.

Stealing Atium future sight? No, but stealing Atium allomancy? Yes. There is Fortune, which you can steal. Most future sight are working based on Fortune, which can be stolen with chromium. Every person has the attribute of Fortune. So yes, you can steal fortune from people, but it won't give you Atium future sight, it will give you permanent F-chromium (which is Fortune storing). Keep in mind, Fortune that people have access to is more like a gut feeling, not a real future sight.

 

No stealing?  Is the spike charged with anything?  Just a steel spike used on a random person?   

I know the answer is that we don't know.  I just like speculation.  

 

As far as the chromium and fortune you totally inspired me to make a home brew for a chromium blessing for Kandra.  

[alder24]

18 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

No stealing?  Is the spike charged with anything?  Just a steel spike used on a random person?   

I doubt it holds any charge. What I think happened is, with the right intent and mindset, somebody in Physical Realm (Spook) pushed a spike into a body, and this spike passed through Kelsier, who was standing right in front of that body in Cognitive Realm, and because of the intent, the spike hit his soul and attached it to the body behind him. Which was a mistwraith holding his bones.

Spoiler

rxience (paraphrased)

Would a single spike be sufficient to staple a Cognitive Shadow to a mistwraith?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that could happen.

rxience (paraphrased)

Did that happen in the past?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. Who are you thinking about?

rxience (paraphrased)

Kelsier of course!

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, he is somehow in the Physical Realm. And he does look like himself, doesn't he?

Berlin signing (May 14, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

With regards to certain experiments, would it be fair to say Ishar and a certain Scadrian have similar goals? 

Brandon Sanderson

*hesitation noises* I don't know that I would say that 100%. The certain Scadrian you reference has been able to achieve the goals that he wants. Let's see if I can circumlocute this: there's a certain set of bones floating around that already has a Connection to this individual, which was useful in achieving what he wanted to do, which is not a luxury that Ishar has. 

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 4/24/2023 at 4:22 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

@Quantus @Trusk'our @alder24

Thanks for the replies.  

You're most very welcome, it was enjoyable 

On 4/24/2023 at 4:22 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So more spikes = more control no matter what though blessing of presence seems to somewhat balance it when using 2 sets.  

For shardic control I am curious.  Is it only ruin and now harmony that can get in that easily due to it being their system?  How many spikes do you think would be needed before some other random shards could control the kandra?  Would more spikes make you more susceptible to all control and allomantic manipulation or just open you up to the gods?  

More spikes always means more vulnerability to being controlled unless you have some other way of reducing outside influence, such as Trellium or a strengthened mind.

On 4/24/2023 at 4:22 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I am a huge blessing of presence nerd due to the whole "harder to control thing".  I have some serious issues with the idea that agency can be yoinked away from anyone at any time.  But I LOVE kandra.

Honestly the Blessing of Presence is my favorite Kandra Blessing.

The resistance to Shardic control is pretty nice, but where it really shines for me is the intelligence boost. I'd really like to see someone hack Hemalurgy in such a way as to allow humans to have Kandra Blessings. That would be something neat.

On 4/24/2023 at 4:22 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

What are your thoughts on a kandra made with blessing spikes of Lerasium?  

I think that @Quantus had a pretty interesting point, one that I hadn't considered before; even if Lerasium spikes allow one to take all human attributes in one go, it may not be possible to actually benefit from all of them at once. 

I suppose it would depend on whether the Bindpoints matter too much for Lerasium Hemalurgy- other spikes can't be placed anywhere you want, position matters.

A Kandra might be able to fit a pair of spikes through multiple Bindpoints due to their flexible anatomy. Though, because the spike is piercing multiple Bindpoints, it may just cause the same amount of damage to the Spiritweb of the Kandra but provide less Investiture than four pairs of normal Blessings.

At the very least, a Kandra could move their Lerasium Blessings around without suffering Hemalurgic decay to benefit from different parts of their spikes at different times, which certainly could be useful.

On 4/24/2023 at 4:22 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

For shardic control I am curious.  Is it only ruin and now harmony that can get in that easily due to it being their system?  How many spikes do you think would be needed before some other random shards could control the kandra?  Would more spikes make you more susceptible to all control and allomantic manipulation or just open you up to the gods?  

As @alder24 mentioned, other Shards can control Kandra and others pierced sufficiently by Hemalurgy. 

However, I think that it requires a sufficient Connection in place. The reason Ruin and Harmony can so easily control Kandra, Koloss, Inquisitors etc. is because their spikes not only crack open their Spiritweb, but it also Connects them to Ruin, creating a bridge between the two beings. That bridge can be used to take control of the Hemalurgic creature.

Shards need this Connection, since they exist primarily in the Spiritual Realm, meaning that they can't "touch" or even "see" something they don't have a sufficient Connection to. There are some workarounds for this- such as when Sazed could see what was around Wax, even though he couldn't see anything else due to Autonomy's influence- but direct action seems to require sufficient Connection.

Soothers/Rioters and Connector Ferrings just force a Connection to exist if they push hard enough with Emotional Allomancy or Feruchemical duralumin. However, they have much less power, and are therefore easier to resist.

Basically, for example, if a Kandra traveled to Roshar and managed to anger Odium, Odium wouldn't be able to take control of the Kandra unless they were to have a sufficient Connection to said Kandra. A random Soother of sufficient power could control that Kandra though, as they don't need a pr-existing Connection.

On 4/24/2023 at 4:02 PM, alder24 said:

And WoB:

  Hide contents

Dalenthas

Was TenSoon more susceptible to Ruin's powers than the other Kandra because he took OreSeur's Blessings?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, he was. However, the Blessing of Presence actually enhanced his mind to make him more resistant, so they balanced out.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

Interesting. This WoB suggests that the Blessing of Presence helps a lot more than I had previously assumed. I used to think that it was a minor benefit, barely of consequence really.

However, if Tensoon had his Spiritweb cracked open twice as much as the other Kandra yet was only about as susceptible as they were... this means that strength of mind matters a whole lot more than I had thought, even when resisting Shardic control.

I suppose that it does make some sense though; Koloss are very easy to control compared to Kandra and Inquisitors.

Perhaps Shards can't even breach the Spiritweb of a Hemalurgic construct's mind if that mind is strong enough, so that creature could handle more spikes before they became susceptible to control.

Supercharged Blessing of Presence seems even more appealing now. Perhaps a Kandra with it would be effectively immune to Shardic control, assuming they don't give themselves too many spikes on top of it.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

22 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Supercharged Blessing of Presence seems even more appealing now. Perhaps a Kandra with it would be effectively immune to Shardic control, assuming they don't give themselves too many spikes on top of it.

I was just wondering a bit about that myself.  Do you think that the investiture amount in a spike has any effect on the size of the hole it is making in the spiritweb? Do you think a spike packed with breaths would be so invested as to help counteract the vulnerability to allomantic pushes or shardic control? 

I do think you could get some supercharged spikes out of mixing the systems. How supercharged I don't know. I am not sure how I would house rules that for a MAG champaign or anything. Maybe just double the bonuses from the spikes.  

 

This takes me to another question though. 

On the coppermind it says that the blessing of presence makes it harder for shardic control. However it tips the hat to the blessing of stability for increased resilence to emotional magic control. I always pictured those being the same things but perhaps there is something different about the two or perhaps the two blessings both work to resist things in different ways?

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

19 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I was just wondering a bit about that myself.  Do you think that the investiture amount in a spike has any effect on the size of the hole it is making in the spiritweb? Do you think a spike packed with breaths would be so invested as to help counteract the vulnerability to allomantic pushes or shardic control? 

I, personally, don't think that the amount of Investiture inside a Hemalurgic spike makes the individual who bears it more vulnerable to control. Otherwise, Wax's earring shouldn't have been able to make Bleeder vulnerable to Harmony as there was basically nothing left in the spike. 

The more Invested the spike, the more it would resist Allomantic pushing and pulling, so a supercharged spike would be basically immune to direct Allomantic manipulation for all practical purposes.

I think that the Blessing of Presensce and Blessing of Stability would help counteract Hemalurgic weakness due to their specific enhancements, though due to this WoB talking about Susebron being potentially immune to Rashek's Soothing suggests that if you Invested a spike enough that it would help the bearer be more resistant to control due to their sheer amount of Investiture. 

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/367/#e11830

Questioner

God-King versus God-King. Susebron versus Rashek, who comes out on top?

Brandon Sanderson

Rashek, probably.

Questioner

By a lot or a little?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, here's the thing. I think Susebron is at the disadvantage in almost every situation.

Questioner

Okay. How so?

Brandon Sanderson

Rashek has been alive longer. Rashek knows what he's doing. Rashek has martial training. Rashek has killed a lot of people, Susebron never has. Fewer scruples. His magic is way more combat-oriented. He can get out of range a lot easier. He has power emotional Allomancy, which Susebron would *inaudible*.

Granted, he's got so much investiture, he may be able to shrug that off. But still, I would put Rashek at the advantage.

So basically, yes, I think that if you Invested a Hemalurgic spike more it could make the bearer more resistant to Shardic control, probably by "crowding out" any other Investiture that tried to enter through the holes the spikes made, or at least the spikes would Invest their bearer enough to tough out the intruding Investiture.

It would probably have to be a lot of extra Investiture added to the spikes to make a noticeable difference though.

19 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This takes me to another question though. 

On the coppermind it says that the blessing of presence makes it harder for shardic control. However it tips the hat to the blessing of stability for increased resilence to emotional magic control. I always pictured those being the same things but perhaps there is something different about the two or perhaps the two blessings both work to resist things in different ways?

Honestly, I'm not sure. Based on the fact that the Blessing of Stability seems to be doing less "work" than the Blessing of Presence (from what we know, it only protects from outside influences. Presence has to boost multiple other cognitive factors), a Blessing of Stability with the same amount of Investiture as a Blessing of Presence would probably shield more its bearer more.

Also, it may be that both work in a different way, though I don't know if there is any proof for that. It could be that they boost different parts of the mind; they enhance different aspects, but the end result for protection is the same.

It also could be that the protection they provide is using the same mechanism, though Presence is dispersed across more things than Stability, probably making it comparatively weaker.

Talking about this actually makes me think of Allomantic pewter; the Blessing of Presence seems to be doing a lot of things in one, and in that respect it's kind of like the cognitive version of A-pewter.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Trusk'our

[alder24]

34 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

On the coppermind it says that the blessing of presence makes it harder for shardic control. However it tips the hat to the blessing of stability for increased resilence to emotional magic control. I always pictured those being the same things but perhaps there is something different about the two or perhaps the two blessings both work to resist things in different ways?

I believe they achieve the same thing, resisting Hemalurgic control, by different means. The Blessing of Presence makes the mind stronger. It gives resistance to madness (which is important as insanity alone cracks the soul) and improves the way the mind works, so you can mentally resist control.

Blessing of Stability gives Kandra emotional stability. It makes them in control of their own emotions (more or less).

Because Hemalurgic control, both imposed by Shards and Misting/Mistborn, works by manipulating emotions, someone who is in control of their own emotions is better in resisting their control, as emotional Allomancy can't create emotions that target doesn't feel. And If Kandra don't feel those emotions, it's harder to control them. On the other hand, stronger mind, given by the Blessing of Presence, grants willingness and strength to resist that control.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

The Resolution

TenSoon and the other kandra resist Ruin and are able to pull the spikes from their shoulders. There are a couple of reasons why they can do this.

The power that Allomancers have to take control of them is the same power Ruin has. That control is exerted in the form of mental pressure through emotional Allomancy. As can be seen from Marsh's viewpoint, it is more than simply forcing the body to act as Ruin wishes. The extreme pressure on emotions changes the very way the mind thinks, tricking it into doing exactly what Ruin wants. The flaw in Hemalurgists leaves them open to this kind of manipulation.

Kandra, who only have two spikes, are far more difficult to control than koloss or Inquisitors. Vin is able to control TenSoon with ease in book two, but that's partially because he wanted her to do so. He would have been able to resist her. If she'd continued to push, she could have broken him, but it would have taken time.

Even Ruin's pressure wasn't enough to take control immediately. The kandra had a few moments during which they could overcome him and maintain their free will. Beyond that, they were in a cavern surrounded by metal ore in the walls, making it very difficult for Ruin to see what was going on and interfering with his ability to control them.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (May 13, 2010)

 

43 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I was just wondering a bit about that myself.  Do you think that the investiture amount in a spike has any effect on the size of the hole it is making in the spiritweb?

I believe it does matter, but it doesn't scale up normally. Spike containing 4 powers will create a larger hole in the recipient's soul, to fit all those spirit web parts into his soul. That hole would be larger than made by 1 spike containing 1 power, but smaller than 4 separate spikes containing 1 power each. Each new spike rips a new hole in the recipient's spirit web, but the more invested the spike is, the bigger the hole, because the more investiture you need to "hot wire" into the recipient's spirit web. For me that's just logical.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I believe they achieve the same thing, resisting Hemalurgic control, by different means. The Blessing of Presence makes the mind stronger. It gives resistance to madness (which is important as insanity alone cracks the soul) and improves the way the mind works, so you can mentally resist control.

Blessing of Stability gives Kandra emotional stability. It makes them in control of their own emotions (more or less).

Because Hemalurgic control, both imposed by Shards and Misting/Mistborn, works by manipulating emotions, someone who is in control of their own emotions is better in resisting their control, as emotional Allomancy can't create emotions that target doesn't feel. And If Kandra don't feel those emotions, it's harder to control them. On the other hand, stronger mind, given by the Blessing of Presence, grants willingness and strength to resist that control.

  Hide contents

Brandon Sanderson

The Resolution

TenSoon and the other kandra resist Ruin and are able to pull the spikes from their shoulders. There are a couple of reasons why they can do this.

The power that Allomancers have to take control of them is the same power Ruin has. That control is exerted in the form of mental pressure through emotional Allomancy. As can be seen from Marsh's viewpoint, it is more than simply forcing the body to act as Ruin wishes. The extreme pressure on emotions changes the very way the mind thinks, tricking it into doing exactly what Ruin wants. The flaw in Hemalurgists leaves them open to this kind of manipulation.

Kandra, who only have two spikes, are far more difficult to control than koloss or Inquisitors. Vin is able to control TenSoon with ease in book two, but that's partially because he wanted her to do so. He would have been able to resist her. If she'd continued to push, she could have broken him, but it would have taken time.

Even Ruin's pressure wasn't enough to take control immediately. The kandra had a few moments during which they could overcome him and maintain their free will. Beyond that, they were in a cavern surrounded by metal ore in the walls, making it very difficult for Ruin to see what was going on and interfering with his ability to control them.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (May 13, 2010)

 

I believe it does matter, but it doesn't scale up normally. Spike containing 4 powers will create a larger hole in the recipient's soul, to fit all those spirit web parts into his soul. That hole would be larger than made by 1 spike containing 1 power, but smaller than 4 separate spikes containing 1 power each. Each new spike rips a new hole in the recipient's spirit web, but the more invested the spike is, the bigger the hole, because the more investiture you need to "hot wire" into the recipient's spirit web. For me that's just logical.

 

37 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I, personally, don't think that the amount of Investiture inside a Hemalurgic spike makes the individual who bears it more vulnerable to control. Otherwise, Wax's earring shouldn't have been able to make Bleeder vulnerable to Harmony as there was basically nothing left in the spike. 

The more Invested the spike, the more it would resist Allomantic pushing and pulling, so a supercharged spike would be basically immune to direct Allomantic manipulation for all practical purposes.

I think that the Blessing of Presensce and Blessing of Stability would help counteract Hemalurgic weakness due to their specific enhancements, though due to this WoB talking about Susebron being potentially immune to Rashek's Soothing suggests that if you Invested a spike enough that it would help the bearer be more resistant to control due to their sheer amount of Investiture. 

So basically, yes, I think that if you Invested a Hemalurgic spike more it could make the bearer more resistant to Shardic control, probably by "crowding out" any other Investiture that tried to enter through the holes the spikes made, or at least the spikes would Invest their bearer enough to tough out the intruding Investiture.

It would probably have to be a lot of extra Investiture added to the spikes to make a noticeable difference though.

Honestly, I'm not sure. Based on the fact that the Blessing of Stability seems to be doing less "work" than the Blessing of Presence (from what we know, it only protects from outside influences. Presence has to boost multiple other cognitive factors), a Blessing of Stability with the same amount of Investiture as a Blessing of Presence would probably shield more its bearer more.

Also, it may be that both work in a different way, though I don't know if there is any proof for that. It could be that they boost different parts of the mind; they enhance different aspects, but the end result for protection is the same.

It also could be that the protection they provide is using the same mechanism, though Presence is dispersed across more things than Stability, probably making it comparatively weaker.

Talking about this actually makes me think of Allomantic pewter; the Blessing of Presence seems to be doing a lot of things in one, and in that respect it's kind of like the cognitive version of A-pewter.

In terms of spikes and holes in the spirit web.  

We know that the Nehel bond sort of uses those as a way to hold on and patches them up.  

Spoiler

Do you think some aetherbound bonds would patch those holes and plug them causing it to be harder to be controlled as well? 

(Not sure this needs to be spoiler tagged anymore) 

 

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

We know that the Nehel bond sort of uses those as a way to hold on and patches them up.  

Possibly, bonds and investiture tend to fill the cracks in soul, so it's likely that in Aetherbound potential cracks are filled with Prime Aether's investiture. Their body literally has cracks filled with Aether. And this would likely make them harder to control.

You don't have to worry about spoiler tags. TLM is out of spoiler period, you can write about it without spoiler tag, but I think it's still nice to spoiler tag some big things, but I don't even do it every time myself.

[Elder]

On 4/24/2023 at 2:15 PM, alder24 said:

No Allomancy, just steelsight. 

I think it's very unlikely. Blessings are made differently than normal spikes, and Kandra still don't know how to make them.

Theory: Pa’alm did know how to make the spikes.  The only alternative is that Autonomy knew.  I couldn’t tell you which possibility is more likely.

Unrelated theory: Bands of Mourning indicates that Kandra can’t just use each other’s Blessing Willy Nilly.  Even Pa’alm’s bullet spike had to be made special.  So, I wonder: was Ten’soon able to use Or’Seur’s because TenSoon ate Ore’Seur?  Ore’Seur was tortured to death.  If Ten’Soon had used acid, you’d think there’d be a very inconvenient mess.

[Trusk'our he/him]

5 hours ago, Elder said:

Unrelated theory: Bands of Mourning indicates that Kandra can’t just use each other’s Blessing Willy Nilly.  Even Pa’alm’s bullet spike had to be made special.  So, I wonder: was Ten’soon able to use Or’Seur’s because TenSoon ate Ore’Seur?  Ore’Seur was tortured to death.  If Ten’Soon had used acid, you’d think there’d be a very inconvenient mess.

I think that you can use any Hemalurgic spike to open a being to being controlled, including Kandra; Bleeder didn't need a specially made spike to open her to Harmony's direct action as they didn't want to grant her more sapience, they just wanted to crack open her Spiritweb.

As for Tensoon with Ore'Seur's Blessing, I think that he could do that is because Tensoon already had his Blessing in place, so he was stable enough to handle another Blessing (this is along the lines of what they say in BoM).

5 hours ago, Elder said:

Theory: Pa’alm did know how to make the spikes.  The only alternative is that Autonomy knew.  I couldn’t tell you which possibility is more likely.

I think that it's very possible that Paalm knew how to create Blessings, as she was more familiar with the workings of Hemalurgy than any other Kandra alive.

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, Paalm was TLR's personal agent, so I think it's very likely she knew the secrets of Blessings - or at least part of them. But Trellium Hemalurgy wouldn’t have been part of that knowledge base, so I think Autonomy was also heavily involved.