Trusk'our Posted April 5, 2023 Report Share Posted April 5, 2023 We know that Kelsier is trapped on Scadrial due to his Connection. However, I think that if he were to use a Trellium spike on himself he might be able to Worldhop due to Autonomy's nature. After all, Trellium spikes try to repel other sources of Investiture making it seem likely that this is an inherent property of Autonomy's Investiture. In fact, I think that Autonomy's plan for dealing with Harmony was to Invest Scadrial heavily enough that her Investiture shoved Sazed out of the picture. In light of that, allowing a Sliver to travel off-world seems almost trivial by comparison. Beyond that... SA spoilers Spoiler perhaps this method could be used to allow Heralds and Radiant Spren to leave Roshar if they so desired. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted April 6, 2023 Report Share Posted April 6, 2023 I suppose that the connection-manipulating effects we saw with Bleeder could help somehow. Spiking out a strong connection to some other planet could also help. SA: Spoiler Spiking a spren’s connection to Roshar, for example, might allow Kelsier to get to that planet. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted April 6, 2023 Report Share Posted April 6, 2023 8 hours ago, Trusk'our said: We know that Kelsier is trapped on Scadrial due to his Connection. However, I think that if he were to use a Trellium spike on himself he might be able to Worldhop due to Autonomy's nature. After all, Trellium spikes try to repel other sources of Investiture making it seem likely that this is an inherent property of Autonomy's Investiture. In fact, I think that Autonomy's plan for dealing with Harmony was to Invest Scadrial heavily enough that her Investiture shoved Sazed out of the picture. In light of that, allowing a Sliver to travel off-world seems almost trivial by comparison. Beyond that... SA spoilers Hide contents perhaps this method could be used to allow Heralds and Radiant Spren to leave Roshar if they so desired. I doubt that for simple reason, Kelsier is Cognitive shadow made of Harmonies (or maybe Preservation's ) Investiture primarily. So the Investiture that is making him up is Connected to Scadrian system. So to do what you suggest is to suggest he basically completly remakes his soul. I doubt he could even spike himself with Trellium spike, since it would be repulsed from him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrcusOfUndeath Posted April 18, 2023 Report Share Posted April 18, 2023 (edited) On 4/6/2023 at 2:16 AM, Nameless* said: I suppose that the connection-manipulating effects we saw with Bleeder could help somehow. Spiking out a strong connection to some other planet could also help. SA: Hide contents Spiking a spren’s connection to Roshar, for example, might allow Kelsier to get to that planet. If you can do that, then the opposite must also be true for Kelsier Spoiler By this I mean spiking out a connection (as with a spren, only instead of spiking out the a connection to Roshar, you'd be spiking out a connection to Scadrial), as that's how Hemalurgy works, that which can go in, can also go out, which is what I think Kelsier is actually after, but as of Rhythm of War doesn't know how to or he knows, but doesn't want to as it takes a piece of soul with it (although he's very heavily invested, so I don't know if that's an actual problem). Edited April 18, 2023 by OrcusOfUndeath 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted April 18, 2023 Report Share Posted April 18, 2023 16 hours ago, OrcusOfUndeath said: If you can do that, then the opposite must also be true for Kelsier Reveal hidden contents By this I mean spiking out a connection (as with a spren, only instead of spiking out the a connection to Roshar, you'd be spiking out a connection to Scadrial), as that's how Hemalurgy works, that which can go in, can also go out, which is what I think Kelsier is actually after, but as of Rhythm of War doesn't know how to or he knows, but doesn't want to as it takes a piece of soul with it (although he's very heavily invested, so I don't know if that's an actual problem). I find it likely that with the current methods of hemalurgy, spiking put Kelsier’s connection to Scadrial would probably either kill him or leave his soul incredibly damaged. Perhaps the Set’s method of partial hemalurgy could be refined to allow for such a procedure to be done semi-safely. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underwater_Worldhopper Posted April 23, 2023 Report Share Posted April 23, 2023 Can a creature made purely of investiture even be spiked? All of this hinges on Kelsier being able to receive a spike, and I'm not sure he could. Hemalurgy works by excising and grafting pieces of people's spiritwebs, which are made out of Investiture. Kelsier and Spren are Investiture. If a charged spike could even be physically driven into Kelsier, considering he's made of Investiture (which repels other Investure, like trying to force two north poles of a magnet together), the added Investiture would probably warp his entire being. I suppose you could spike connection out of a Spren, but that would probably tear a chunk out of them, so you'd have to kill a spren in a horrific way to even initiate the process. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted April 23, 2023 Report Share Posted April 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Can a creature made purely of investiture even be spiked? Yes. Spren are made purely out of investiture, and they can be spiked. WoB, SA spoilers: Spoiler Mr. Suit Can spren - like Syl - be pierced by hemalurgic spike? Will it give some effect? Brandon Sanderson Yes. A spren can be pierced by Invested metal… Oversleep Could it be spiked? Brandon Sanderson Could a spike be used to give abilities to spren? That’s not going to work really well. Oversleep Could you steal from a spren? Brandon Sanderson Yes, you could steal the Investiture of a spren. Any Investiture can be used in a spike if you know what you’re doing. It’s actually not that hard to use one on a spren. Oversleep Because I thought you said Hemalurgy needs moving blood. Brandon Sanderson It needs, uh, yeah… there are places where spren have more physical form, more tangible form. Questioner Roshar? Brandon Sanderson No, no, no, not Roshar. Questioner The Cognitive Realm on Roshar? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, if you go to the Cognitive Realm on Roshar the spren act differently than they do. Oversleep So you could spike in the Cognitive Realm? Brandon Sanderson Yeah I’ll leave a RAFO with you on that. That’s your fifth one. So there are ways to get any Investiture into Hemalurgy if you know what you’re doing. But yeah this is not something that would be a common use for Hemalurgy. Let’s just say that. Oversleep We do not concern ourselves with common uses. Brandon Sanderson Yes, I know you don’t. But yeah Hemalurgy, when you’re spiking into somebody you… you’ll see when we get around to it. Kraków signing (March 21, 2017) 1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: All of this hinges on Kelsier being able to receive a spike, and I'm not sure he could. He does have a spike, steel spike connecting him to his body. You've seen it in BoM. His soul was attached to the body via Hemalurgy. But here is a problem (in my opinion), this connection is artificial. For Allomancy and Feruchemy you need a natural connection to the body. You need your own body. You burn metal in your body to get Allomantic powers, you touch your metalminds and store your physical attributes in them via the body in Feruchemy. Kelsier doesn't have that. It isn't his body. His soul is very likely attached to a Mistwraith who consumed his bones and took his form, and that's not his body. WoB with SA spoilers: Spoiler Questioner With regards to certain experiments, would it be fair to say Ishar and a certain Scadrian have similar goals? Brandon Sanderson *hesitation noises* I don't know that I would say that 100%. The certain Scadrian you reference has been able to achieve the goals that he wants. Let's see if I can circumlocute this: there's a certain set of bones floating around that already has a Connection to this individual, which was useful in achieving what he wanted to do, which is not a luxury that Ishar has. JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underwater_Worldhopper Posted April 23, 2023 Report Share Posted April 23, 2023 4 minutes ago, alder24 said: Yes. Spren are made purely out of investiture, and they can be spiked. WoB, SA spoilers: Hide contents Mr. Suit Can spren - like Syl - be pierced by hemalurgic spike? Will it give some effect? Brandon Sanderson Yes. A spren can be pierced by Invested metal… Oversleep Could it be spiked? Brandon Sanderson Could a spike be used to give abilities to spren? That’s not going to work really well. Oversleep Could you steal from a spren? Brandon Sanderson Yes, you could steal the Investiture of a spren. Any Investiture can be used in a spike if you know what you’re doing. It’s actually not that hard to use one on a spren. Oversleep Because I thought you said Hemalurgy needs moving blood. Brandon Sanderson It needs, uh, yeah… there are places where spren have more physical form, more tangible form. Questioner Roshar? Brandon Sanderson No, no, no, not Roshar. Questioner The Cognitive Realm on Roshar? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, if you go to the Cognitive Realm on Roshar the spren act differently than they do. Oversleep So you could spike in the Cognitive Realm? Brandon Sanderson Yeah I’ll leave a RAFO with you on that. That’s your fifth one. So there are ways to get any Investiture into Hemalurgy if you know what you’re doing. But yeah this is not something that would be a common use for Hemalurgy. Let’s just say that. Oversleep We do not concern ourselves with common uses. Brandon Sanderson Yes, I know you don’t. But yeah Hemalurgy, when you’re spiking into somebody you… you’ll see when we get around to it. Kraków signing (March 21, 2017) He does have a spike, steel spike connecting him to his body. You've seen it in BoM. His soul was attached to the body via Hemalurgy. But here is a problem (in my opinion), this connection is artificial. For Allomancy and Feruchemy you need a natural connection to the body. You need your own body. You burn metal in your body to get Allomantic powers, you touch your metalminds and store your physical attributes in them via the body in Feruchemy. Kelsier doesn't have that. It isn't his body. His soul is very likely attached to a Mistwraith who consumed his bones and took his form, and that's not his body. WoB with SA spoilers: Hide contents Questioner With regards to certain experiments, would it be fair to say Ishar and a certain Scadrian have similar goals? Brandon Sanderson *hesitation noises* I don't know that I would say that 100%. The certain Scadrian you reference has been able to achieve the goals that he wants. Let's see if I can circumlocute this: there's a certain set of bones floating around that already has a Connection to this individual, which was useful in achieving what he wanted to do, which is not a luxury that Ishar has. JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021) True, Kelsier's spirit was pinned to a body by a hemalurgic spike; However, that one always felt a bit off to me (as in it's a use of Hemalurgy we havent seen before), and I'm not sure it counts as piercing a Cognitive Shadow in the way that we're trying to. Really, it's a body being spiked in a way that allows Kelsier to puppet it around, not Kelsier himself being spiked (Although now that I think about it, could the way this was achieved have been to charge a spike with Kelsier (spike him in the Cognitive Realm with the intention of sucking his entire soul into the spike instead of tearing a specific chunk off), then put that spike into a body? If that's the case, that still doesn't provide a way for something to be spiked into kelsier's cognitive aspect). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted April 23, 2023 Report Share Posted April 23, 2023 3 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Really, it's a body being spiked in a way that allows Kelsier to puppet it around That can't be the case. Single spike doesn't even allow for a Shard to take full control. Kel's soul is spiked, but instead of stealing something from it, this spike staples his soul to that body, connecting them together. Intent matters. Misborn only WoBs: Spoiler rxience (paraphrased) Would a single spike be sufficient to staple a Cognitive Shadow to a mistwraith? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes, that could happen. rxience (paraphrased) Did that happen in the past? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. Who are you thinking about? rxience (paraphrased) Kelsier of course! Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Well, he is somehow in the Physical Realm. And he does look like himself, doesn't he? Berlin signing (May 14, 2019) Spoiler Questioner In Bands of Mourning, we learned that the Sovereign, who they confused as being the Lord Ruler, came after the Catacendre. [He] was their god, was their king and god. And then Kelsier looking for a string. Is the spike somehow connecting Kelsier's soul to Spook's body. Brandon Sanderson No, good question. It is connecting his soul with his body, his current body, but it is not Spook's body. That's a great theory. Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016) 6 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: (Although now that I think about it, could the way this was achieved have been to charge a spike with Kelsier (spike him in the Cognitive Realm with the intention of sucking his entire soul into the spike instead of tearing a specific chunk off), then put that spike into a body? This might be true, but I doubt a single spike can hold the Sliver amount of investiture. And his spike is made out of steel (I can't find a source now) not nicrosil which steals investiture. If that was the case, nicrosil spike should be used. 11 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: If that's the case, that still doesn't provide a way for something to be spiked into kelsier's cognitive aspect). It's the other way around. Kelsier was spiked into the body. Likely. What I think happened is, with the right intent and mindset, somebody in Physical Realm (Spook) pushed a spike into a body, and this spike passed through Kelsier, who was standing right in front of that body in Cognitive Realm, and because of the intent, the spike hit his soul and attached it to the body behind him. Which was a mistwraith holding his bones. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underwater_Worldhopper Posted April 23, 2023 Report Share Posted April 23, 2023 2 minutes ago, alder24 said: That can't be the case. Single spike doesn't even allow for a Shard to take full control. Kel's soul is spiked, but instead of stealing something from it, this spike staples his soul to that body, connecting them together. Intent matters. Misborn only WoBs: Hide contents rxience (paraphrased) Would a single spike be sufficient to staple a Cognitive Shadow to a mistwraith? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes, that could happen. rxience (paraphrased) Did that happen in the past? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. Who are you thinking about? rxience (paraphrased) Kelsier of course! Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Well, he is somehow in the Physical Realm. And he does look like himself, doesn't he? Berlin signing (May 14, 2019) Reveal hidden contents Questioner In Bands of Mourning, we learned that the Sovereign, who they confused as being the Lord Ruler, came after the Catacendre. [He] was their god, was their king and god. And then Kelsier looking for a string. Is the spike somehow connecting Kelsier's soul to Spook's body. Brandon Sanderson No, good question. It is connecting his soul with his body, his current body, but it is not Spook's body. That's a great theory. Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016) This might be true, but I doubt a single spike can hold the Sliver amount of investiture. And his spike is made out of steel (I can't find a source now) not nicrosil which steals investiture. If that was the case, nicrosil spike should be used. It's the other way around. Kelsier was spiked into the body. Likely. What I think happened is, with the right intent and mindset, somebody in Physical Realm (Spook) pushed a spike into a body, and this spike passed through Kelsier, who was standing right in front of that body in Cognitive Realm, and because of the intent, the spike hit his soul and attached it to the body behind him. Which was a mistwraith holding his bones. Ah, that makes more sense! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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