Stormlight and physical strength

[therunner]

So, in the numerous vs. discussion one topic comes up repeatedly and that is Stormlight and its physical enhancements (most relevant in Radiant vs X discussions).
The typical line of argumentation is that Stormlight does not enhance strength, since it 'perfects' and most characters don't note increase in strength, counterarguments typically listing various feats that are beyond regular (as in, not holding Stormlight) abilities of the Radiant in question.

However, I think RoW pretty clearly proves that Stormlight does increase strength, and considerably even.

On pg. 542 Kaladin fights Stormform Regal, and the following happens:

Quote

The Regal leaped forward, swinging his axe.
And Kaladin stepped off the edge.
He shook free of his father's grip and shoved him backward with one hand, then caught the Regal's arm with his other before the axe could fall. 
...
Kaladin got his other hand up, preventing another punch while continuing to hold back the axe. The two struggled for a moment, then Kaladin managed to get the advantage...

He later on notes that Regal is stronger than him, however he still held back Regal swinging an axe at him, and Regal had to struggle to try and push it into him.

Note that Stormform are stronger than Warform, and Warform are already stronger then baseline humans. Warform jump across the chasms on Shattered planes, and Stormform do it without running start, and those chasms are around ~10 meters wide. I think this safely puts Stormform at 2x the Rosharan human at minimum.
(Sidenote: I think there was some mention that already Warform are about twice as strong as human, however I cannot find it. If so, it would put Stormform comfortably at 3x human strength).

So how to reconcile this with the statement that most Radiant don't feel increase in strength?
I would suggest it works exactly as stated i.e. it perfects, and human muscles can already allow for far greater strength, they just get damaged in the process. And since Stormlight can heal this damage as it happens (and also strengthens the body against damage a little bit), then it can let human body operate at that capacity.

So Radiant with Stormlight would not be 'stronger' in the sense of multiplier that A-pewter burner experiences, were their strength is actively increased, but instead Stormlight lets them reach higher highs than usual. Similar to hysterical strength, except without the damage

TLDR: Stormlight lets Radiant do feats comparable to hysterical strength, without incurring the damage. As a result, while not getting strength enhancement per se, their peak strength is in fact increased.
So basically their 'strength range' is extended higher, so they can exert themselves beyond their non-Invested peak. But same exertion still results in same strength as non-Invested.
Whereas A-pewter multiplies the range as whole, so same exertion leads to greater effect.

Edited April 5 by therunner

[StanLemon]

This is more or less how I've come to view Stormlight enhancements. Like a constant adrenaline fueled body allowing for the full expression of the body. But with the added advantages of limitless stamina and regeneration. Few if any expressions of strength have truly gone beyond what I could believably see a person doing and the only two examples that definitely stand out do seem to be exceptions rather than the rule. The first being Rock using a Shardbow which mystified Kaladin and Dalinar lifting a big rock but there is the implication that Tension can be used to increase strength 

Quote

TheDanfromSpace

Could Dalinar lift stones of equivalent weight to the statue [in Thaylen City]? Assuming enough Stormlight. Or was that extra strength part of his Surges?

Brandon Sanderson

You are correct--Dalinar could not lift stones of equivalent weight in other circumstances.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e13635

 

 

Brandon's wording makes it slightly unclear but using other factors from the books, particularly Kaladin's comment that Stormlight doesn't give great strength, it's probably safe to say Brandon was referring to Surges

Edited April 5 by StanLemon

[Quantus]

Correct, most of the Strength Augmentation of a Radiant comes through the Plate rather than directly from holding Stormlight.  

[therunner]

2 hours ago, StanLemon said:

.The first being Rock using a Shardbow which mystified Kaladin and Dalinar lifting a big rock but there is the implication that Tension can be used to increase strength

Yeah, those are beyond what is reasonable. Shardbow requires Plate, so at minimum something like 15x strength, and the rock Dalinar was lifting was something like a few tons or around that (someone did some math once).

Interestingly though, the 'adrenalin'-like effect then puts Radiant with Stormlight near A-Pewter who is not flaring, or possibly even one who is. IRL incidents are of people lifting ~1-1.5 tons at extreme ends, which is definitely in the ballpark of 3x strength.
A-pewter would still peak higher though, since they can get adrenaline rush on top of A-pewter.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

Just spit balling a bit here. 

The vs battles also have a tendency to assume power usage when it wasn't explicitly written out too.  Who is to say that Kaladin didn't lash his opponent in that instance as well?  Dalinar could have been using a surge in a way to help with the Boulder as well.  

I have heard of things like "the mom lifted the car" or whatever but I am really interested in a legit documented case of an average person lifting a ton+  the WR deadlifts are just at that 500kg mark and that is still a far far cry from a ton.  

Rock is also another example of something else happening behind the scenes. Swimming in pools of God powers.... 

[StanLemon]

8 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I have heard of things like "the mom lifted the car" or whatever but I am really interested in a legit documented case of an average person lifting a ton+  the WR deadlifts are just at that 500kg mark and that is still a far far cry from a ton.  

There have been documented cases of lifting a car. But there is a big caveat to it, they are typically only lifting a portion of the car a couple of inches off the ground. When these events have happened they have only been lifting a fraction of the weight of the vehicle rather than the whole weight of the vehicle. 

8 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Rock is also another example of something else happening behind the scenes. Swimming in pools of God powers.... 

I have a feeling Rock is on his way to becoming a Stoneward...

[therunner]

21 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

The vs battles also have a tendency to assume power usage when it wasn't explicitly written out too.  Who is to say that Kaladin didn't lash his opponent in that instance as well?

Kaladin could not have used surge in that instance, as the suppressor fabrial was on. The only surge he could use was Adhesion, and that would just glue his hand to Fused, not hold him back. And in that section of RoW every single usage of Surge is described to us, because it is plot relevant (to understand how suppressor fabrial works).
Edit: Reverse lashing would also not help, since it would draw Fused towards Kaladin, something he was trying to stop in that instance.

This is pretty much as clear cut as it can get that Stormlight does enhance strength. Stormform are far stronger than humans, and yet Kaladin + Stormlight could hold him back and grapple. Stormform was still stronger, but not as far as 2-3x, because then Kaladin could not do what he did.

21 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I have heard of things like "the mom lifted the car" or whatever but I am really interested in a legit documented case of an average person lifting a ton+  the WR deadlifts are just at that 500kg mark and that is still a far far cry from a ton. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysterical_strength feel free to browse.
Arguments are that due to weight distribution, they are lifting just something around several hundred kg's not tons. Still more then they could do in ordinary situations (and the people are not trained worldclass deadlifters).

And Stormlight could probably let you push even further, since it heals the damage done. Ultimately though, hysterical strength was more of a illustration example, not a statement on limitations.

21 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

  Dalinar could have been using a surge in a way to help with the Boulder as well. 

Rock is also another example of something else happening behind the scenes. Swimming in pools of God powers.... 

Those two situations are definitely something else going on, and it was even directly stated by Brandon, and I acknowledge that above.

Edited April 6 by therunner

[Heilven]

On 4/5/2023 at 9:59 AM, therunner said:

TLDR: Stormlight lets Radiant do feats comparable to hysterical strength, without incurring the damage. As a result, while not getting strength enhancement per se, their peak strength is in fact increased.
So basically their 'strength range' is extended higher, so they can exert themselves beyond their non-Invested peak. But same exertion still results in same strength as non-Invested.
Whereas A-pewter multiplies the range as whole, so same exertion leads to greater effect.

I don't disagree with you, but I think the extra strength and such given by stormlight is an effect of having extra latent investiture, not necessarily a specific effect of stormlight. I'd compare it to being an elantrian, a returned, or even a high heightening awakener. All of these increase the size of your spirit web, and give passive benefits like healing and strength. In the case of Radiants, they can actively consume investiture to heal faster, something all the others don't have great access to (besides elantrians, but they still need an aon so it doesn't count).

So I think radiants probably have other passive benefits they haven't noticed, just like how holding extra breaths gives passive benefits. I think radiants don't hold as much latent investiture as several heightening's of course, so I would figure the benefits are more difficult to notice. If all colors around you became just 10% more vivid over the course of a year you probably wouldn't notice. I wonder if with how important tones are on roshar, it will actually come up that radiants have better pitch.

Mostly conjecture, but I think it connects a lot of dots

[therunner]

13 hours ago, Heilven said:

I don't disagree with you, but I think the extra strength and such given by stormlight is an effect of having extra latent investiture, not necessarily a specific effect of stormlight. I'd compare it to being an elantrian, a returned, or even a high heightening awakener. All of these increase the size of your spirit web, and give passive benefits like healing and strength. In the case of Radiants, they can actively consume investiture to heal faster, something all the others don't have great access to (besides elantrians, but they still need an aon so it doesn't count).

If it was latent benefit, they would notice it while not holding Stormlight, which they don't. The feats appear only after breathing in Stormlight, which is kinetic Investiture.

Additionally, both Elantrians and Returned require Investiture to remain functions (AonDor in Elantrian case, regular supply of breaths or other source for Returned), so they don't have just passive effects.
High Heigthenings are the only fully passive effect, and those don't grant neither healing nor strength, though they do get immunity to most toxins and illnesses.
 

13 hours ago, Heilven said:

So I think radiants probably have other passive benefits they haven't noticed, just like how holding extra breaths gives passive benefits. I think radiants don't hold as much latent investiture as several heightening's of course, so I would figure the benefits are more difficult to notice. If all colors around you became just 10% more vivid over the course of a year you probably wouldn't notice. I wonder if with how important tones are on roshar, it will actually come up that radiants have better pitch.

It appears that there can be similarities, as Riino originally thought Kaladin attained Heightenings (but was not specific about it), before realizing he is Surgebinder.

Passively though, Surgebinders are still regular humans, just their spiritweb started merging with spiritweb of Spren. So if we consider them to be fully merged, the effect would be somewhere below First Heightening I think, at most 2nd.  So they don't really have that much Investiture by themselves, see this WoB

Spoiler

 

tskyeguye

From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects?

Brandon Sanderson

The latter.

Skrimyt

Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be?

Brandon Sanderson

Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy.

But RAFO to specifics.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

 

[Heilven]

12 hours ago, therunner said:

If it was latent benefit, they would notice it while not holding Stormlight, which they don't. The feats appear only after breathing in Stormlight, which is kinetic Investiture.

Additionally, both Elantrians and Returned require Investiture to remain functions (AonDor in Elantrian case, regular supply of breaths or other source for Returned), so they don't have just passive effects

This is actually kinda my point, that their strength does come from stormlight, but their ability to become strong using stormlight has more to do with having a larger spirit web. I think that all kinds of investiture likely give all benefits, but specific coded types give more of some than others (just like how all shards can see the future, but some are better than others). So stormlight gives you better reactions, healing, and strength, but isn't great at letting you see colors or hear tones. Something that seriously hurts my argument is how few examples we have, I'm fully willing to believe that.

I'm essentially trying to argue that the "passive" (not passive, but passive so long as you hold stormlight) benefits of being a radiant are more about being a person with extra latent investiture than a specific effect of the nahel bond. I don't think they are on the order of high tier awakeners or elantrians, but that it's a similar source.

Additionally I might argue that if vasher became a radiant, he might gain far more benefit out of the stormlight because of his already existing latent investiture. But that's speculation.

12 hours ago, therunner said:

Passively though, Surgebinders are still regular humans, just their spiritweb started merging with spiritweb of Spren. So if we consider them to be fully merged, the effect would be somewhere below First Heightening I think, at most 2nd.  So they don't really have that much Investiture by themselves, see this WoB

I totally get that, I think the thing is that spren have very large spirit webs, and expand the spirit web of a radiant significantly. Obviously this is only true of higher ideal radiants, but we know the benefits like healing get better when you are at higher ideals. So I think the reason we see such powerful healing with a comparatively smaller spirit web is due to the coding of stormlight giving those effects. I don't think radiants would see benefits like perfect pitch or perfect color, perhaps just, better.

I also think rosharans have better pitch in general due to constantly being around investiture and the presence of the rhythms, so the benefit might not be mentionable. This is also more of a speculative theory than truly evidence based.

[Duxredux]

Quote

TheDanfromSpace

Could Dalinar lift stones of equivalent weight to the statue [in Thaylen City]? Assuming enough Stormlight. Or was that extra strength part of his Surges?

Brandon Sanderson

You are correct--Dalinar could not lift stones of equivalent weight in other circumstances.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e1363

For this WoB at least there has been debate on the Bondsmith Coppermind article. A while back the article stated that Bondsmiths at times had supernatural strength referencing this WoB. It has since been removed.

My take on Dalinar lifting and repairing those pieces of statue and architecture is that he was using Spiritual Adhesion, creating an attractive force pulling the stone fragments together and that did most of the work for him.

Two thoughts on Rock using a Shardbow. First, Cord makes a remark about spren strengthening his arm when he drew the Bow of Hours, so Brandon has a possible / partial explanation. Second, I learned from an archery class that a large part of the difficulty in drawing a bow can be in how much the string cuts into your fingers (at least without a mechanical release or finger guard) and the potential damage to the ligaments in the hand from the stress. If Rock is healing fast enough that he doesn't feel pain, he should be able to draw a far higher poundage bow than he normally could. For reference, the Guiness world record longbow draw is 200 lb (90 kg). 

I haven't looked at the other cases too closely, but strength comparisons in combat can be dependent on how long the engagement is. Unless I'm mistaken, Stormlight allows someone to operate at peak capacity for as long as they are invested. It's possible that some of these feats are done by an infused Radiant fighting someone worn out from combat.