Building a mastermind

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

Trying to build a human calculator of a character with cosmere enhancements.  

Obvious choices would be zinc and copper compounding but it leads me to ask more questions.  

How do you think kandra blessings of stability and presence measure up in terms of enhanced intelligence and wisdom or wit?  

Are there other systems I am missing for augmenting brain power?  I know some systems perhaps offer a direct link to another brilliant entity (I assume Shallan could make an excellent chess player so long as she just listens to pattern as he plays the game for her unseen by her opponents).  

If you could only compound zinc or copper but were allowed a medallion with the other ability which do you think would be more powerful as a compounded metal or which do you think would play off of the other metal being compounded best? 

Copper compounder with F zinc 

Or 

Zinc compounder with F copper? 

[alder24]

6 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

How do you think kandra blessings of stability and presence measure up in terms of enhanced intelligence and wisdom or wit?  

Not much? Blessing of Stability gives only emotional stability and greater resistance against hemalurgic control. Blessing of presence gives increased mental capabilities - in this case it would help. How much? No idea. Likely something around 2x human abilities. 

6 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Are there other systems I am missing for augmenting brain power?  I know some systems perhaps offer a direct link to another brilliant entity (I assume Shallan could make an excellent chess player so long as she just listens to pattern as he plays the game for her unseen by her opponents).  

You can use Breaths to store memory, as they can work like Copperminds. Obviously Hemalurgy, just stealing mental attributes a few times, or few more F-zinc to increase your feruchemical strength, but when you're compounder it's better to take A-zinc few times instead, as this will increase you Allomantic strength, which fuels your compounding, which would give you much more feruchemical attribute. In this case it's better to take A-zinc than mental attributes. This also includes Blessings. When you are a zinc compounder your base mental capabilities are no longer important, as you have zinc. Increasing the amount of attributes gained by compounding is important, and this is dependent on your Allomantic strength. So taking Lerasium-zinc alloy would be far more beneficial than Lerasium bead of the same size. Then becoming a savant in F-zinc and zinc compounding would also help significantly.

6 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If you could only compound zinc or copper but were allowed a medallion with the other ability which do you think would be more powerful as a compounded metal or which do you think would play off of the other metal being compounded best? 

Zinc. No questions asked. Not every form of compounding does something spectacular, and based on BoM coin medallion, copper compounding likely duplicates memories. Useful for computing but far less than zinc.

Spoiler

Questioner

I was wondering what happens when you compound copper?

Brandon Sanderson

I will reveal this eventually. You're getting a RAFO. Do know that not all compounding does cool stuff. Not all of it does cool stuff, but a lot of it does cool stuff.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

Zinc is computing power, copper is harddrive. Your brain is already both of these, but it's far more useful to increase your computing power than memory space if you can't compute fast.

I don't think there is much more in the Cosmere that can make you into a biological computer. A-bendalloy will help, as combining it with F-zinc it will make computing happening dozens of times faster from the outside perspective. That's useful. Eventually you can use Forgery or some advance Aons as well.

[Trusk'our he/him]

10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Trying to build a human calculator of a character with cosmere enhancements.  

Obvious choices would be zinc and copper compounding but it leads me to ask more questions.  

How do you think kandra blessings of stability and presence measure up in terms of enhanced intelligence and wisdom or wit?  

Are there other systems I am missing for augmenting brain power?  I know some systems perhaps offer a direct link to another brilliant entity (I assume Shallan could make an excellent chess player so long as she just listens to pattern as he plays the game for her unseen by her opponents).  

Ooooo. Sounds like a fun challenge 

I'm going to start out with a disclaimer; I count "intelligence" as anything that acts as a tool to improve a being's cognitive flexibility or efficiency in some way; intelligence is like a toolbox for problem solving, not necessarily just thinking speed (that might already be obvious and that me explaining that proves my own lack of said intelligence, but I digress).

I'd say that the Blessing of Stability probably won't help with this much; from what we know, I think that it's likely it only helps protect you from external influences (such as Emotional Allomancy) more than it boosts your Cognitive functions.

The Blessing of Presence does grant some nice intelligence boosters however: You can focus and think at least somewhat despite pain or discomfort, you have sharpened memory, resistance to madness, and an inability to fall unconscious due to shock. Also, the Hemalurgy table mentions that it is supposed to increase "intelligence", likely meaning that your fluid intelligence is augmented at least a little as well (which is apparently different from F-zinc)

Quote

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 19, 2016)

Argent

Can tapping enough Feruchemical zinc allow one to match Taravangian's intellect on the day he created the Diagram? Or are the effects different somehow?

Brandon Sanderson

The effects are similar, but not exactly the same. Zinc is speed of thought specifically--while what happens to Taravangian increases multiple types of intelligence, not just raw 'processing power' so to speak.

What would be really cool to see is someone supercharge a Blessing of Presence by adding the Investiture of many people into a single spike. You may get things like: total control over your focus (so you can completely ignore distractions if you choose, such as pain), a photographic memory, great resistance to madness (would be helpful especially if the person or being you're boosting is going to live for thousands of years), and a sizable boost to fluid intelligence (ability to reason and think flexibly, and likely to learn new skills faster).

AonDor can utilize Aon Ene to produce "Light of the Mind", which causes anyone who touches it to memorize more quickly, reason more clearly, and stave off the mental-diminishing effects of illness or lack of sleep better.

Bio-Chromatic Breaths can be used to store one's memories like F-copper (Vasher teaching the one child in Warbreaker) or to boost their total memory capacity (Hoid in RoW).

Forgery can be used to rewrite your past to give you new knowledge and expertise in a given area, which would definitely improve your skill focus and mental flexibility if used in the correct situations. 

F-duralumin can be used to instantly understand the language of any land you visit and Bondsmithing can be used to understand the language of anyone you use it on.

F-electrum can increase "determination", though I'm not entirely certain of what that pertains it probably means that you "want" to work and accomplish more when you tap and are better able to resist distractions and discomforts.

Building on Forgery, it may be possible to use H-duralumin to steal someone else's Connections to their past and by extension take their skills in a given area, though not the memories themselves (memories aren't stealable by Hemalurgy, since they are from the CR and not the SR). Think of the Returned; they're able retain skills they had before they died, but don't have the actual memories of such things.

Aviar are supposed to primarily provide Cognitive powers, though admittedly we don't know a lot about this area yet.

Radiants have certain skills come more naturally to them due to their Nahel Bond (Kaladin is more talented with the spear, for example).

If you don't mind looking to direct Shardic intervention, we saw in TLM that Autonomy can increase one's ability to understand certain large-scale plans better and we see in SA that Cultivation can increase one's intelligence, though with a price attached (though Hemalurgy can be used to steal such Boons from others and even separate the Curse as well, which is a nice improvement).

When Allomancy of any type is used, it has a mental side-effect/improvement. This may also extend to other manifestations of Investiture; powers come hand-in-hand with the mental capacity to use them.

Quote

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Sept. 22, 2009)

Brandon Sanderson

Allomancy's Mental Effects

An interesting side note is to watch how Allomancy—all of its forms—enhances the mind in some way. Though the original concept for the magic system focused on different powers—some physical, some mental—the final product always had a mental component. Notice how, when burning tin, Spook is more able to focus on solitary conversations in the room. Or how his mind can filter out the mist or the cloth he wears. Burning pewter or tin will also make the mind more alert and awake. Burning atium not only lets one see a little bit into the future, but also lets one process that information in a useful way.

The mind is such a big part of what makes us who we are. I wanted Allomancy to impact the characters—to have an effect you could see on the minds of those using it. As I've stated, one of the places where books can outshine television or movies is in the ability to see exactly what is happening inside a character's thoughts and emotions. By adding a mental component to each of the Allomantic powers, my hope was to play off of this strength of the written form.

We know that the more Invested a being is, the better its memory (i.e., Shardic Vessels. Heralds are mentioned to be able to use Stormlight to increase memory in the RoW chapter headings). Beings with more Investiture also seem to understand certain things better, such as Awakeners being able to innately understand certain Commands at the sixth Heightening. 

I think it's likely that more Invested beings also have their general, fluid intelligence boosted somewhat as well (Shardic Vessels have this on a larger scale). Perhaps this was why Susebron was able to learn to read and write so quickly.

10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If you could only compound zinc or copper but were allowed a medallion with the other ability which do you think would be more powerful as a compounded metal or which do you think would play off of the other metal being compounded best? 

Copper compounder with F zinc 

Or 

Zinc compounder with F copper? 

I'm with @alder24 on this; F-zinc is far superior to F-copper if you want to solve a lot of problems quickly. I suppose that F-copper can be pretty useful for memorization, but in reality I don't think that it is as useful, since you could also write things down or practice with mnemonic devices (such as using acronyms, association, and chunking).

So I'd say a zinc Compounder with a F-copper medallion would be a better deal, especially since with the medallion you might be able to directly share memories with other people, or they with you. And that could be a very useful way you could gather lots of information very quickly; have a group of people study and learn, then have them Feruchemically store the information and let you tap it. And if those people also have F-zinc... things start to speed up a lot.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

@alder24 @Trusk'our

I forgot about the storage of memories in breaths.  Do those breaths stay with the awakener and do you think the memories can be moved back and forth the same as copper?  I felt like the instance we saw he was using it to erase her memory.  If that breath was used up or remained to be used for other things or simply recover the memory later remains to be determined right?  

As far as coppermind storage.  We don't really have any way to tell how fast those memories can be filtered through right?  Is coppermind usage like flipping through a book or is it available for immediate recall?  

In a game of chess who do you think comes out on top?  F zinc with years of experience or F copper with a coppermind filled with every game ever played and all theories?  

How about for language?  Is duralumin just outright better for translation or would a coppermind with all known languages stored suffice just as well?  I know duralumin only works one way.

If a duralumin user were from scadrial and ended up on roshar trying to have a discussion with someone from nalthis would they be able to communicate?  I thought the medallion was location based? 

I agree zinc allows for far better calculation.  If C zinc is like the limitless pill it would appear to be better than even having F copper... in fact it might make F copper completely unnecessary unless you were specifically trying to transfer memories from one person to another and then forget them all together. (Feruchemical copper in specialty is going to be totally busted with the availability of medallion tech in the future).  

Side note - I watched a hilarious MAG YouTube episode where the copper ferring stored all of his memories of the way he betrayed this whole group and then the metalminds were lost.  They were in a position where punishment was necessary but the guilty party had no memories of his connection to them and just played off of this whole imprisonment as "I just don't understand why you are all so mad at me."  Totally pitiful and funny to see the quandary.  

 

Back on topic.  I totally see C zinc as being the superior however you have to have a background knowledge to use it.  It could be totally possible that zinc allows for near instant recall of all memories anyways. 

Unless.... 

I certainly have had moments where a song gets stuck in your head but for the life of you you cannot remember where it came from.  I have obsessed over things like this for unhealthy lengths of time in the past.  Would large amounts of zinc allow me to remember it easier or would it just burn through zinc to make it through hours of frustration not being able to remember in a few seconds?  

As for the other uses from other systems I like all of that feedback.  I agree and believe that someone invested with thousands of breaths likely does have a higher base intelligence at some level or another.  You can't be invested with that much power and not have some sort of enhanced mind.  

My guilty reason for this entire discussion?  

Kolossblooded chess hustler character. 

[alder24]

43 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I forgot about the storage of memories in breaths.  Do those breaths stay with the awakener and do you think the memories can be moved back and forth the same as copper?  I felt like the instance we saw he was using it to erase her memory.  If that breath was used up or remained to be used for other things or simply recover the memory later remains to be determined right?  

Breaths stay with Awakener. They can be moved back and forth (likely, otherwise why would Hoid be using them), memories stored in Breaths likely stays there undisturbed as they are tied to investiture, and Breaths are not used up, unless they were to be consumed by Nightblood or Returned.

45 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

As far as coppermind storage.  We don't really have any way to tell how fast those memories can be filtered through right?  Is coppermind usage like flipping through a book or is it available for immediate recall?  

Yes, it's like flipping through a book, Sazed is doing that, and he has a Table of Contents in every coppermind to help him know what's in there and where to find what he needs. This takes time. Zinc would speed up this process likely.

47 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

In a game of chess who do you think comes out on top?  F zinc with years of experience or F copper with a coppermind filled with every game ever played and all theories?  

Zinc, in chess game you need to watch your time, flipping through a copperminds during a game would take all your time. 

48 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

How about for language?  Is duralumin just outright better for translation or would a coppermind with all known languages stored suffice just as well?  I know duralumin only works one way.

Duralumin connects you to the land you're in, which translates the language for you, like you were born there. It's always better. This works like medallions or Dalinar. So when traveling use duralumin, when staying at home use copperminds.

51 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If a duralumin user were from scadrial and ended up on roshar trying to have a discussion with someone from nalthis would they be able to communicate?  I thought the medallion was location based? 

If Nalthians know Rosharan languages, they would, otherwise Feruchemist would speak with Rosharan while Naltian with Naltian.

52 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I agree zinc allows for far better calculation.  If C zinc is like the limitless pill it would appear to be better than even having F copper... in fact it might make F copper completely unnecessary unless you were specifically trying to transfer memories from one person to another and then forget them all together. (Feruchemical copper in specialty is going to be totally busted with the availability of medallion tech in the future).  

Copperminds are still useful, zinc doesn't improve your memory. 

53 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Back on topic.  I totally see C zinc as being the superior however you have to have a background knowledge to use it.  It could be totally possible that zinc allows for near instant recall of all memories anyways. 

No, zinc speeds up processing speeds of your brain, not gives you perfect memory. Copper is useful.

55 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I certainly have had moments where a song gets stuck in your head but for the life of you you cannot remember where it came from.  I have obsessed over things like this for unhealthy lengths of time in the past.  Would large amounts of zinc allow me to remember it easier or would it just burn through zinc to make it through hours of frustration not being able to remember in a few seconds?  

Zinc makes you think faster, it doesn't make you remember better. If you still have a slight memory of the song's title, you might be able to come up with this name faster using zinc, but if you totally forgot it, it won't help you

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

@alder24 @Trusk'our

I forgot about the storage of memories in breaths.  Do those breaths stay with the awakener and do you think the memories can be moved back and forth the same as copper?  I felt like the instance we saw he was using it to erase her memory.  If that breath was used up or remained to be used for other things or simply recover the memory later remains to be determined right?  

I think that Breaths are actually better than Copperminds for total memory capacity (otherwise Odium excising some of Hoid's Breath wouldn't have made him forget their conversation), but Copperminds may be superior if you want to remember a specific thing instantly. However, Vasher's technique does seem to make you forget entirely, suggesting that Breaths can be made to function more like a Coppermind; it likely depends on how the practitioner wants to use the Breaths and their level of knowledge and skill.

I'm not sure if you could use Breaths to do something like Awaken, then recover the Breaths later and retrieve your lost memories. It might be interesting to Awaken a Lifeless with a Breath that contained some memories (and being Identity Blanked) and see if said Lifeless's personality (assuming you can get it to take on one in the first place) was shaped around those memories, similar to how Nightblood's personality seems to have been shaped around it's first few hours of "life".

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

In a game of chess who do you think comes out on top?  F zinc with years of experience or F copper with a coppermind filled with every game ever played and all theories?  

How about for language?  Is duralumin just outright better for translation or would a coppermind with all known languages stored suffice just as well?  I know duralumin only works one way.

If a duralumin user were from scadrial and ended up on roshar trying to have a discussion with someone from nalthis would they be able to communicate?  I thought the medallion was location based? 

In chess a Sparker comes out on top since they have practiced with their knowledge and have more capacity to think and foresee than the Archivist. Copper Ferring doesn't have actual skill from their memories, so even if they "knew" what to do in a given situation, they'd need time to process and take that action; they don't have the neural pathways formed to quickly take advantage of the knowledge they possess while the zinc Ferring has spent years building those pathways even without the aid of their Investiture.

Language wise F-duralumin would likely be better, since F-copper would be more like being able to quickly and easily sight a language guide; it doesn't come naturally to the person tapping the Coppermind, while Connection can be used to "trick" the Cognitive aspect into changing to understand the foreign language as if the person had grown up with it (very similar to Forgery).

In the scenario of a Scadrien and Nalthian traveling to Roshar, they'd both need to tap Blank Connection from Duraluminmind or they wouldn't share a common language in which to communicate.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I agree zinc allows for far better calculation.  If C zinc is like the limitless pill it would appear to be better than even having F copper... in fact it might make F copper completely unnecessary unless you were specifically trying to transfer memories from one person to another and then forget them all together. (Feruchemical copper in specialty is going to be totally busted with the availability of medallion tech in the future).  

I certainly have had moments where a song gets stuck in your head but for the life of you you cannot remember where it came from.  I have obsessed over things like this for unhealthy lengths of time in the past.  Would large amounts of zinc allow me to remember it easier or would it just burn through zinc to make it through hours of frustration not being able to remember in a few seconds?  

Feruchemical zinc might be able to help you recall information you already had, but if so it wouldn't be easier- you'd have to put in the same amount of effort, you'd just have more "time" to do so as your mind speeds up. So F-copper still has its uses in this regard.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

As for the other uses from other systems I like all of that feedback.  I agree and believe that someone invested with thousands of breaths likely does have a higher base intelligence at some level or another.  You can't be invested with that much power and not have some sort of enhanced mind.  

Yeah, the Heightenings are basically just a much, much lower level of Shardic Ascension, so I think it's pretty reasonable to connect the dots between the two of them.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

My guilty reason for this entire discussion?  

Kolossblooded chess hustler character. 

Lol, nice. Brains and brawn together in one character is pretty neat.

Out of curiosity, do they favor one over the other? Do they use their heightened intelligence to the best of its ability or does their natural strength cause them to neglect it or vice versa?

Might be some interesting character development opportunities to be had there 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

33 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Lol, nice. Brains and brawn together in one character is pretty neat.

Out of curiosity, do they favor one over the other? Do they use their heightened intelligence to the best of its ability or does their natural strength cause them to neglect it or vice versa?

Might be some interesting character development opportunities to be had there 

I just wanted to mash a bunch of my favorite characters together.  The natural strength of a koloss blooded was just for flavor.  I wasn't planning on him being a trained fighter but due to what he naturally is being larger and more capable than the normal human. 

Really I like the concierge of crime feel.  A little Red Redington with a little Wilson Fisk.  In the game tapping lots of zinc allows you to choose what you do after your enemies have stated their intentions and also allows you to perform the action you will take at any point in the combat sequence that you choose.  Add on some not too overpowered kolossblooded flavoring and it would make for some neat scenes.  RDJ in the 2009 Sherlock Holmes pit fight type of feel from a combat perspective.  Zinc making you hungry is a nice addition as I can totally see a big dude (like some worlds strongest man contenders) playing a game of chess with little pieces and needing to chow down some massive 10000 calories of food for the day or whatever.  

 

Its a total hodgepodge and more made to be an NPC than a player character.  Not a total brute and not a total slimy mastermind.  Just a big dude with a bigger brain and his own agenda.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

13 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Its a total hodgepodge and more made to be an NPC than a player character.  Not a total brute and not a total slimy mastermind.  Just a big dude with a bigger brain and his own agenda.  

To be fair, I actually really like building unique NPC's for D&d, even though I almost never employ them in actual gameplay.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

To be fair, I actually really like building unique NPC's for D&d, even though I almost never employ them in actual gameplay.

My job has never let me have a steady enough schedule to play a character other than the NPC.  Any time I would play online or whatever I would just set up side gigs with guilds or groups in MMOs or over roll20.  Offering quests or story for people who wanted a 1 shot or whatever.  One of my favorites was a bee keeper in ESO who was a thieves guild contact and surgeon for anyone who wanted to work into and through the rift. Just a normal vendor type of NPC playing through Rift related events but his house had a cave entrance hidden behind a wall and he would patch up and hide the folks who would pay for it.  

 

This Kolossblooded would likely be some hustler in the park making bets and playing while storing then when its rematch time ramp up with some zinc tappage. It would take a special type of person to want to call out a massive koloss blooded in some nice slacks with a blazer that is ready to tear at the seams.  If he needed to exist in a game as a deadly threat toss a gold spike into him for F gold and ramp up his influence and resources with a few goons of his own... make him some casino running mobster or whatever. 

 

I saw this short on YouTube where the guy said something along the lines of "Don't talk when you are the smartest guy in the room because you don't want to give away all of your secrets.  And don't talk when you aren't the smartest guy in the room because you want to listen and learn what everyone else knows." 

Again it can totally exist as a hodgepodge of a character.  Depending on threat level (a tool used in the MAG to build NPCs) you can titration the character from basic kolossblooded with no powers but higher wits up to kolossblooded twinborn with a spike or medallion and a following of goons.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

My job has never let me have a steady enough schedule to play a character other than the NPC.  Any time I would play online or whatever I would just set up side gigs with guilds or groups in MMOs or over roll20.  Offering quests or story for people who wanted a 1 shot or whatever.  One of my favorites was a bee keeper in ESO who was a thieves guild contact and surgeon for anyone who wanted to work into and through the rift. Just a normal vendor type of NPC playing through Rift related events but his house had a cave entrance hidden behind a wall and he would patch up and hide the folks who would pay for it.  

Sorry to hear that. I haven't gotten a lot of time for RPGs a while either.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This Kolossblooded would likely be some hustler in the park making bets and playing while storing then when its rematch time ramp up with some zinc tappage. It would take a special type of person to want to call out a massive koloss blooded in some nice slacks with a blazer that is ready to tear at the seams.  If he needed to exist in a game as a deadly threat toss a gold spike into him for F gold and ramp up his influence and resources with a few goons of his own... make him some casino running mobster or whatever. 

I saw this short on YouTube where the guy said something along the lines of "Don't talk when you are the smartest guy in the room because you don't want to give away all of your secrets.  And don't talk when you aren't the smartest guy in the room because you want to listen and learn what everyone else knows." 

Again it can totally exist as a hodgepodge of a character.  Depending on threat level (a tool used in the MAG to build NPCs) you can titration the character from basic kolossblooded with no powers but higher wits up to kolossblooded twinborn with a spike or medallion and a following of goons.  

I already love this character 

I once built an above-average intelligence Hillgiant villain for a D&d game I ran for my cousins. He was well dressed ("commissioned" clothes and equipment from skilled people he intimidated/stole from) and referred to himself as a "king" and required tribute of anybody who passed his way along a certain road. He had a small(ish) gathering of twenty bandits who played along with his fantasy (mostly because he was bigger and stronger than them and he shared his spoils), serving his every whim. 

He had a personality, backstory, and everything you'd make for a good NPC as a responsible DM.

However...

My PCs managed to gaslight him into drinking a potion of gaseous form with a stupidly high deception check (30-40's. And they were low-level) and got him to try to fly up into a cloud... where upon his potion ran out of juice and he plummeted to his death. His followers all attacked, but apparently a 6th level fighter duel wielding scimitars in 3.5e can be very good at crowd-control with the right feats and a wizard buffing them; it took two rounds to for him to single handedly kill all twenty the bandits (okay, the wizard buffed him a little, but didn't actively help after that) and they only did a total of maybe five or six points of damage to him. Somehow.

All in all though, I wasn't too disappointed, since I had been the one to give them the potion in the first place (they got it from an ogre who buffed himself via potions for an extra unique battle), and they acted very creatively (I always reward my players for being smart, even when I don't have something planned to handle it). It was pretty fun to roleplay the Hillgiant as he fell to his doom though, even if most of his personality couldn't shine through.

Rule of DMing an NPC you've lovingly put together; either (#1) don't. OR (#2) get used to the idea that the rampaging, bloodthirsty murder-hobos you call players will maliciously rip them to shreds (even if they weren't meant to be enemies).

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

49 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Sorry to hear that. I haven't gotten a lot of time for RPGs a while either.

I already love this character 

I once built an above-average intelligence Hillgiant villain for a D&d game I ran for my cousins. He was well dressed ("commissioned" clothes and equipment from skilled people he intimidated/stole from) and referred to himself as a "king" and required tribute of anybody who passed his way along a certain road. He had a small(ish) gathering of twenty bandits who played along with his fantasy (mostly because he was bigger and stronger than them and he shared his spoils), serving his every whim. 

He had a personality, backstory, and everything you'd make for a good NPC as a responsible DM.

However...

My PCs managed to gaslight him into drinking a potion of gaseous form with a stupidly high deception check (30-40's. And they were low-level) and got him to try to fly up into a cloud... where upon his potion ran out of juice and he plummeted to his death. His followers all attacked, but apparently a 6th level fighter duel wielding scimitars in 3.5e can be very good at crowd-control with the right feats and a wizard buffing them; it took two rounds to for him to single handedly kill all twenty the bandits (okay, the wizard buffed him a little, but didn't actively help after that) and they only did a total of maybe five or six points of damage to him. Somehow.

All in all though, I wasn't too disappointed, since I had been the one to give them the potion in the first place (they got it from an ogre who buffed himself via potions for an extra unique battle), and they acted very creatively (I always reward my players for being smart, even when I don't have something planned to handle it). It was pretty fun to roleplay the Hillgiant as he fell to his doom though, even if most of his personality couldn't shine through.

Rule of DMing an NPC you've lovingly put together; either (#1) don't. OR (#2) get used to the idea that the rampaging, bloodthirsty murder-hobos you call players will maliciously rip them to shreds (even if they weren't meant to be enemies).

That sounds like a fun time at the table.  Rule of cool > the DMs feelings imo.  

While I love 3.5 or Pathfinder or any other d20 system, I have to say that the RP is what I love most about the MAG rules.  

Combat exists in 3 forms as each character has 3 separate health pools.  You can attack your enemies health, reputation or willpower.  I personally felt that the skill checks in most D20 systems left the true RP seriously wanting.  Building a character to have a passive pass on all social skill checks just made conversation a sad thing.  

The way the MAG lays it out is in such a way that losing health in any form has lasting consequences that can't simply be healed up (except strong feruchemists are a bit OP in that regard).  And you actually assemble dice pools and have rounds of combat for social interactions.  Whether you are you trying to destroy a noble house lords reputation or you want to crack the willpower of an informant you have to assemble the dice and roll.  

... honest downside... gathering and talking through how large your dice pool will be could use some house rules for brevity otherwise it can be a time sink.  

Anyways.  When there isn't a healer to fix your lost arm the desire to go fullbore murderhobo gets cut down a lot.  You have to deal with and live with these other characters in the world that you are interacting with afterall.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

24 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

That sounds like a fun time at the table.  Rule of cool > the DMs feelings imo.  

While I love 3.5 or Pathfinder or any other d20 system, I have to say that the RP is what I love most about the MAG rules.  

Combat exists in 3 forms as each character has 3 separate health pools.  You can attack your enemies health, reputation or willpower.  I personally felt that the skill checks in most D20 systems left the true RP seriously wanting.  Building a character to have a passive pass on all social skill checks just made conversation a sad thing.  

The way the MAG lays it out is in such a way that losing health in any form has lasting consequences that can't simply be healed up (except strong feruchemists are a bit OP in that regard).  And you actually assemble dice pools and have rounds of combat for social interactions.  Whether you are you trying to destroy a noble house lords reputation or you want to crack the willpower of an informant you have to assemble the dice and roll.  

... honest downside... gathering and talking through how large your dice pool will be could use some house rules for brevity otherwise it can be a time sink.  

Anyways.  When there isn't a healer to fix your lost arm the desire to go fullbore murderhobo gets cut down a lot.  You have to deal with and live with these other characters in the world that you are interacting with afterall.  

Sounds pretty neat! 

I was actually going to implement the optional rule in my D&d game where critical hits could lead to lasting injures which would cause certain penalties. Magic could still be used to fix injuries if the players wanted, but it wouldn't be a "I walk in and get healed by the local cleric" sort of deal, it would be more of the "I do a side-quest to find the magic pool in the forest that can regenerate one person" kind of thing. That way injuries would be worth considering, but players could exercise their will over their characters should they be willing to put in the work.

Never actually used the rule though, as I forgot about it until it was too late into the session  (did make them pay a lot of money to get healed up though ).

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

14 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Sounds pretty neat! 

I was actually going to implement the optional rule in my D&d game where critical hits could lead to lasting injures which would cause certain penalties. Magic could still be used to fix injuries if the players wanted, but it wouldn't be a "I walk in and get healed by the local cleric" sort of deal, it would be more of the "I do a side-quest to find the magic pool in the forest that can regenerate one person" kind of thing. That way injuries would be worth considering, but players could exercise their will over their characters should they be willing to put in the work.

Never actually used the rule though, as I forgot about it until it was too late into the session  (did make them pay a lot of money to get healed up though ).

Yeah healing is a powerful mechanic (as if we don't see it in the cosmere).  The lack of it is one of my favorite parts of Warbreaker.  

I loved how it was used in Alloy of Law and I found Miles to be a total boss of a character.  

Where it utterly failed in the cosmere was SA.  Swords that can 1 shot everything except the people who get them for free in their kits plus have infinite healing from the same 1 shot moves... totally weakened the entire series.  

Kaladin had a whole 2 paragraphs where he was sweating after losing his arm.  2 whole paragraphs for the audience to worry before learning that he was infact immortal.  It didn't even last a paragraph when Shallan got stabbed in the heart.  The sword went in and then she took a breath and any worry you had for the character was instantly gone.  

Sometimes in D&D I felt similar feelings.  Yeah your groups tank just got stomped on for 99 out of 100 health but because he has 1 he still has full function of his kit and can land the final slash to the giants big toe that kills it.  

I'm glad to hear more DMs making damage punishing. 

In the MAG they have breakpoints.  Damage is damage is damage until you hit those breakpoints.  If you take 25% of your current health as damage you get a burden this is usually just an injury that will make the rest of the fight harder but easily healed through a breather or two.  If you take 50% of your current health you get a more serious burden.  This one will take a session or two to heal and will make the rest of the fight harder.  75% of your current health and you are severely impaired for the rest of the fight and the burden could very well be permanent (an arm gets cut off.  Over time you can  learn how to fight with just 1 and not take penalties but continuing the current fight puts your character at serious risk of death).  

It opens a ton of options for antagonist NPCs as well as your PCs to grow.  Maybe your PC shows or is shown mercy?  Maybe your PC makes that last second escape and has to train back to take revenge with his last good arm later.  

Anyways. Kind of back on topic. I think that F zinc and F Copper totally synergize well together.  But I am curious what is the benefit of Feruchemical zinc?  Couldn't compounding steel allow you to think through a situation just like zinc plus give more combat benefits?  (Basically action surge of we want a D&D comparison).  

[cometaryorbit]

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

When you are a zinc compounder your base mental capabilities are no longer important, as you have zinc.

Zinc is just speed of thought, your own natural abilities still matter.

11 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

The Blessing of Presence does grant some nice intelligence boosters however: You can focus and think at least somewhat despite pain or discomfort, you have sharpened memory, resistance to madness, and an inability to fall unconscious due to shock. Also, the Hemalurgy table mentions that it is supposed to increase "intelligence", likely meaning that your fluid intelligence is augmented at least a little as well (which is apparently different from F-zinc)

[...]

AonDor can utilize Aon Ene to produce "Light of the Mind", which causes anyone who touches it to memorize more quickly, reason more clearly, and stave off the mental-diminishing effects of illness or lack of sleep better.

[...]

F-electrum can increase "determination", though I'm not entirely certain of what that pertains it probably means that you "want" to work and accomplish more when you tap and are better able to resist distractions and discomforts.

[...]

If you don't mind looking to direct Shardic intervention, we saw in TLM that Autonomy can increase one's ability to understand certain large-scale plans better and we see in SA that Cultivation can increase one's intelligence, though with a price attached (though Hemalurgy can be used to steal such Boons from others and even separate the Curse as well, which is a nice improvement).

When Allomancy of any type is used, it has a mental side-effect/improvement. This may also extend to other manifestations of Investiture; powers come hand-in-hand with the mental capacity to use them.

We know that the more Invested a being is, the better its memory (i.e., Shardic Vessels. Heralds are mentioned to be able to use Stormlight to increase memory in the RoW chapter headings). Beings with more Investiture also seem to understand certain things better, such as Awakeners being able to innately understand certain Commands at the sixth Heightening. 

I think it's likely that more Invested beings also have their general, fluid intelligence boosted somewhat as well (Shardic Vessels have this on a larger scale). Perhaps this was why Susebron was able to learn to read and write so quickly.

So Blessing of Presence + f-zinc should be better than f-zinc alone.

Aon Ene is a really good point.

F-electrum seems to be almost a controlled bipolar disorder thing; the high determination state is described as "manic". It sounds rather unpleasant. I think it'd be useful for pushing through exhaustion or pain, but might not be helpful for purely mental things.

Expanded mind does seem to come with large quantities of Investiture, like a Shard or avatar. A ton of Breaths likely would have some effect in this direction, yeah, and Susebron benefiting from it makes sense.

Edited April 5, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[alder24]

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Zinc is just speed of thought, your own natural abilities still matter.

I mean with compounding your base speed of thought doesn't matter as you don't store it in metalminds from your body, but from compounding. So if you want to get as much of F-zinc as possible, improve your Allomantic strength.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I was just thinking about a lady I know who is in her late 80s and still remembers my birthday after hearing it 1 time.  She can't tell what color my car is or if it was big or small but she remembers the exact license plate, after seeing it 1 time! 

Her memory is perfect.  

And it takes her exactly no time to recall this information. 

It was said that TLR had perfect memory.  I kind of wonder if copper stores a memory but 10x from compounding if that would imprint it more into your self and less so just multiplying it into metalminds.  

Perhaps copper compounding would allow for perfect recall of things.  Then the zinc compounding would still inch it out in the computing part but there are less computations to be made when you remember everything perfectly like this old friend of my wife I met.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Anyways. Kind of back on topic. I think that F zinc and F Copper totally synergize well together.  But I am curious what is the benefit of Feruchemical zinc?  Couldn't compounding steel allow you to think through a situation just like zinc plus give more combat benefits?  (Basically action surge of we want a D&D comparison).  

They do work very well together, I believe. I think that F-steel would help in a similar fashion to F-zinc, but it probably takes a lot more Investiture (and time storing or Compounding) with steel to match zinc's ability since the cognitive boost provided by steel likely is primarily a side-effect to help the Feruchemist compensate and use their enhanced speed of body without killing themselves, similar to how F-iron and proportional body strength works.

It may also be that F-zinc helps boost your overall cognitive efficiency (increasing fluid intelligence) rather than just making it faster, but I'm hesitant to suggest this due to the Taravangian WoB I gave earlier.

11 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Zinc is just speed of thought, your own natural abilities still matter.

It would also be worth noting that with F-copper your own abilities matter as well. Aparently, Sazed had an incredible memory even without his Copperminds and it likely takes some practice to get skilled with archiving Coppermind properly.

Quote

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Dec. 24, 2009)

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Forty-Nine - Part One

Sazed's Memorization Skills

Okay, long chapter here. I'll bet I have to split this annotation in two. But, let's launch into it. First off, you should know that Sazed tends to gloss over just how hard he had to work to memorize those copperminds of his in the first place. Keepers like him go through intense memorization training early in their lives, learning how to build near-photographic memories even before they use their metalminds. The goal of this, of course, is to train the mind to hold a perfect image of what it has read so that knowledge can be kept as pristine as possible before being shoved into the coppermind.

Generally, a Keeper can keep the entire contents of several books memorized in their head even without use of Feruchemy. Like a Muslim who memorizes the Koran, Sazed could take a book and memorize it word for word, then repeat it all back to you. He's trained himself in this skill for so long, however, that it seems mundane to him. Beyond that, the application of Feruchemy changes his abilities—and how he uses them—somewhat.

Feruchemical mental enhancements are useful, but ultimately they are just another tool to be used along with the rest of your intelligence toolbox. Intelligence itself must still be obtained the old-fashioned way; though hard work, experience, and an open mind.

... Or with a supercharged version of the Blessing of Presence plus some Copperminds Hemalurgically stolen from a well-learned Feruchemist