F steel more than we think?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I have been a large believer that F steels biggest advantage isn't just the speed part... but the perception of the user being slowed down.  

I know this will be a recycled argument from another thread but I wanted to take it a step up.  This video, while choreographed, I think is a well paced fight scene to compare. 

Normal speed is, well, normal speed.  

If a steelrunner were to tap 100% speed thus moving 2x as fast it makes more of a gap than I realized though.  

In the realm of perception changes alone you can see it is a much larger gap than just moving twice as fast.  

Playing the video at 0.5x speed shows what your steel runner would see.  Playing it at 2x speed shows how fast that steel runner would be moving to the naked eye. 

It is easy to see though, in this test at least, that when a steelrunner taps twice as much speed they aren't just effecting themselves.  That speed boost effects the other person as well. The difference in how you can perceive your opponents actions is actually 4x slower than you appear to them. 

In YouTube you can slow the video even more down to 0.25x.  This would be only a tripling of speed for the speedster and you can see how bullet-timey it really gets.  There is no option from where I am standing to play the video at 3x speed but that would lead us to the perspectives of both parties if the speedster were to tap an additional 200% speed just moving 3x faster than normal. In this case you would be watching your opponent move 12x slower than what they see you move. 

Following this pattern your opponent would be moving 32x slower to you than what you appear to them when tapping speed to move just 4x faster.  And this pattern just grows exponentially.  

Of course my math skills are not up to snuff and I really don't know if it possible to compare it to anything else.  I guess some flipbook master could make comparisons better.  

For normal speed both parties progress one frame per sheet of paper.  At 2x speed then the sped up person goes every piece of paper while the slower person is moving at a rate of every 4 sheets.  At 3x speed the normal person would only get a new action every 12 sheets of paper and at 4x speed the normal person would only recieve a new animation every 32 sheets of paper.  This would certainly do a better job of illustrating the idea than just speeding up and slowing down videos.  

[StanLemon]

Anyone who's ever played a video game that lets you slow down time even for a moment can attest how powerful it is

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

20 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Anyone who's ever played a video game that lets you slow down time even for a moment can attest how powerful it is

I feel like that is my whole point.  We can see how busted it is from the perspective of slowing things down.  

Speeding things up is a much harder perspective to get. 

Comparing the two of them at the same time is really hard to imagine or fathom. 

At least I feel like it is.  

 

[Frustration]

Why would you see your opponent moving at 1/2 regular speed rather than 1/2 of your speed?

To them you are moving twice as fast, so to you they seem to be moving at half speed.

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Why would you see your opponent moving at 1/2 regular speed rather than 1/2 of your speed?

To them you are moving twice as fast, so to you they seem to be moving at half speed.

 

Well sure you would see them moving at the speed that is relative to how much you are tapping right?  

If you are moving double the normal speed then you would see "normal" speed at half the speed.  It isn't that you cut the other peoples speed in half.  Just that you precieve yourself moving normally while they see a blur.  

To your mind I imagine your punches happen exactly the speed that they always happen no matter how much speed you are tapping.  

To your opponent you are simply moving twice as fast, which is easy to see that effect and how difficult it would be to dodge a strike from someone moving faster by speeding up the video.  

For the person moving so much faster, because their body is moving normally for their perception everyone else is slowed way down. 

In this case the difference in total speed change is far higher than looking at one or the other. 

 

I'm just saying that the difference between the 2 is staggering.  

If your top speed is 20mph and you tap 100% speed you total to 2x faster than normal and go 40mph.  For you to go 60mph you tap 200% speed and go 3x faster.  80mph is 4x faster.  

But you perceive the world around you being cut in half each time.  50% of normal for 2x 25% of normal for 3x and 12.5% of normal at 4x.  

In order for a speedster to see what the non speedster is seeing at each of those breakpoints you would have to be moving exponentially faster than the speedster. 

For a person moving twice as fast, or 40mph in this case, they would have to witness someone going 4x faster than themselves.  160mph.  

For a person moving 60mph or 3x as fast as their normal to see a person moving the speed that a normal person is perceiving them at the faster speedster would have to be traveling 12x as fast. 720 mph.  

For the person moving 80mph to be see another person moving relatively as fast as they are to a normal person that other person would have to be moving 32x as fast. (400% normal speed / what the speedster sees at 12.5%).  2560mph. 

I don't think writing out the numbers is perhaps the best way to illustrate it either. 

For a steelrunner using enough steel to go 4x normal speed to be at the same disadvantage that their opponent is at, the steel runner would have to be facing a speedster who is tapping enough speed to go 128x normal speed.  

Because steel tapping speeds up your perception enough that it is like you are moving normally. 

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Well sure you would see them moving at the speed that is relative to how much you are tapping right?  

If you are moving double the normal speed then you would see "normal" speed at half the speed.  It isn't that you cut the other peoples speed in half.  Just that you precieve yourself moving normally while they see a blur.  

To your mind I imagine your punches happen exactly the speed that they always happen no matter how much speed you are tapping.  

To your opponent you are simply moving twice as fast, which is easy to see that effect and how difficult it would be to dodge a strike from someone moving faster by speeding up the video.  

For the person moving so much faster, because their body is moving normally for their perception everyone else is slowed way down. 

In this case the difference in total speed change is far higher than looking at one or the other. 

 

I'm just saying that the difference between the 2 is staggering.  

If your top speed is 20mph and you tap 100% speed you total to 2x faster than normal and go 40mph.  For you to go 60mph you tap 200% speed and go 3x faster.  80mph is 4x faster.  

But you perceive the world around you being cut in half each time.  50% of normal for 2x 25% of normal for 3x and 12.5% of normal at 4x.  

In order for a speedster to see what the non speedster is seeing at each of those breakpoints you would have to be moving exponentially faster than the speedster. 

For a person moving twice as fast, or 40mph in this case, they would have to witness someone going 4x faster than themselves.  160mph.  

For a person moving 60mph or 3x as fast as their normal to see a person moving the speed that a normal person is perceiving them at the faster speedster would have to be traveling 12x as fast. 720 mph.  

For the person moving 80mph to be see another person moving relatively as fast as they are to a normal person that other person would have to be moving 32x as fast. (400% normal speed / what the speedster sees at 12.5%).  2560mph. 

I don't think writing out the numbers is perhaps the best way to illustrate it either. 

For a steelrunner using enough steel to go 4x normal speed to be at the same disadvantage that their opponent is at, the steel runner would have to be facing a speedster who is tapping enough speed to go 128x normal speed.  

Because steel tapping speeds up your perception enough that it is like you are moving normally. 

That isn't what I was talking about

6 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

The difference in how you can perceive your opponents actions is actually 4x slower than you appear to them. 

This is.

You would only appear twice as fast to your opponent, and they would only appear to be moving at half speed to you, there is no 4x difference.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That isn't what I was talking about

This is.

You would only appear twice as fast to your opponent, and they would only appear to be moving at half speed to you, there is no 4x difference.

If they see you as moving 200% speed and you are watching them at 50% then 200/50 is literally a 4x difference. 

300/25=12x difference 

400/12.5=32x difference

Thus if you are moving 4x faster than them you have as big of an advantage against them as someone moving 128x normal speed would have against you at 4x normal speed. 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If they see you as moving 200% speed and you are watching them at 50% then 200/50 is literally a 4x difference.

That's not how relativity works, you have two separate observers, and thus only a 2x difference.

From the steelrunners point of view the normal person is moving at half speed.

From the normal persons perspective the steelrunner is moving at double speed.

From no perspective is there a 4x difference.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Frustration

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

That's not how relativity works, you have two separate observers, and thus only a 2x difference.

From the steelrunners point of view the normal person is moving at half speed.

From the normal persons perspective the steelrunner is moving at double speed.

From no perspective is there a 4x difference.

There is a 4x difference from the perspective of someone breaking down the difference.  

You aren't just gaining an advantage when you tap speed.  You are also forcing a disadvantage.  

When I move 4x normal speed I am not just making the world around me moved at 12.5% playback but i am making myself move 400% for my opponent.  

I get that for me there is just the advantage of being 4x faster.  I get that for them the disadvantage is just that I am moving 4x faster... but there is a far greater gap than that precievely because the time slows down.  

Relative to 0 -4 and 4 are both only 4 numbers away. From neither perspective are they more than 4 numbers away from a baseline of 0.  But every step you take in both directions the gap doesn't just get bigger by one side.  Every 1 step you take away from zero that total gap between them grows.  

When people think that overcoming 2x or 3x speed is a thing they can do I just don't think they realize how much that is to overcome. Every move the faster person takes doesn't just happen faster but it will happen more precisely and be a more dangerous attack because they have far longer to formulate it as well. 

But I get that there is never a point at which either person sees more advantage or disadvantage from eachother.  

I think I overestimated in the differences by saying there was a 32x difference and that someone would have to move 128x faster to be the same as you would if you were moving 4x.  

I think it would be far more linear than that.  

If you move 4x faster then someone moving 4x faster than normal sets your speed to 0.  They wouldn't need to move 128x faster for that advantage.  They would just have to double your speed 4 times for a grand total of 16x movement for you to see what a normal person sees when they look at you moving 4x normal speed.  

But still there isn't just a 4x difference. You both feel it but for every ounce of advantage a speedster gets they also dish out an ounce of disadvantage onto their opponent.

But yes.  From either perspective it is just advantage or disadvantage. 

[therunner he/him]

6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

There is a 4x difference from the perspective of someone breaking down the difference.  

You aren't just gaining an advantage when you tap speed.  You are also forcing a disadvantage.  

When I move 4x normal speed I am not just making the world around me moved at 12.5% playback but i am making myself move 400% for my opponent.  

I get that for me there is just the advantage of being 4x faster.  I get that for them the disadvantage is just that I am moving 4x faster... but there is a far greater gap than that precievely because the time slows down.  

Relative to 0 -4 and 4 are both only 4 numbers away. From neither perspective are they more than 4 numbers away from a baseline of 0.  But every step you take in both directions the gap doesn't just get bigger by one side.  Every 1 step you take away from zero that total gap between them grows.  

When people think that overcoming 2x or 3x speed is a thing they can do I just don't think they realize how much that is to overcome. Every move the faster person takes doesn't just happen faster but it will happen more precisely and be a more dangerous attack because they have far longer to formulate it as well. 

But I get that there is never a point at which either person sees more advantage or disadvantage from eachother.  

I think I overestimated in the differences by saying there was a 32x difference and that someone would have to move 128x faster to be the same as you would if you were moving 4x.  

I think it would be far more linear than that.  

If you move 4x faster then someone moving 4x faster than normal sets your speed to 0.  They wouldn't need to move 128x faster for that advantage.  They would just have to double your speed 4 times for a grand total of 16x movement for you to see what a normal person sees when they look at you moving 4x normal speed.  

But still there isn't just a 4x difference. You both feel it but for every ounce of advantage a speedster gets they also dish out an ounce of disadvantage onto their opponent.

But yes.  From either perspective it is just advantage or disadvantage. 

You don't dish out any disadvantage to opponent, all they have is opponent who is now faster n-fold.

And while F-Steel makes you physically faster, it actually does not make you perceive and think equally fast, so you won't get that much advantage to formulate plans, hit much more precisely etc. See WoB

• Mental improvement in F-Steel is minor (similar to strength in F-Iron, which we know is insubstantial) - https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11520

[StanLemon]

43 minutes ago, therunner said:

And while F-Steel makes you physically faster, it actually does not make you perceive and think equally fast, so you won't get that much advantage to formulate plans, hit much more precisely etc. See WoB

• Mental improvement in F-Steel is minor (similar to strength in F-Iron, which we know is insubstantial) - https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11520

From what we see Marasi do in BoM, this is not the case. Marasi was easily able to casually go up to Set goons and grab their vials of metal, and was able to fully grasp what was happening around her while sped up. This shows that both delicate actions, such as striking more precisely and fully utilizing the speed difference is possible. 

While Marasi might have also been tapping some F-Zinc, Wax seemed to have plenty when he used it. Additionally, the bits we see of Bleeder in SoS from Wayne's time bubble support the idea that F-Steel imparts the full necessary perception and thought speed to fully utilize F-Steel

Edit: there is also this WoB 

Quote

Alteroden

With [Feruchemical] zinc, you get mental speed. How is that any different from [Feruchemical] steel, except without [physical] speed?

Brandon Sanderson

I think of the mental speed actually turning you into... Let's say you sped up your body, and you wanted to figure out some really complex equations.

Alteroden

So it lets you have intuitive leaps.

Brandon Sanderson

Right. It basically turns you into Ken Jennings. That's how I imagine it.

Kurkistan

So it's not like bullet time?

Brandon Sanderson

No... It'll bullet time a little bit, it certainly will, because you're thinking faster than everyone else, but it has applications beyond bullet timing. Bullet time is really--

Kurkistan

That’s steel’s thing?

Brandon Sanderson

That’s kind of steel's thing. They kind of overlap on that one, because the steel thing... But yeah. It's more like "I think fast, but my reaction speed is not sped up".

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by StanLemon

[therunner he/him]

48 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

From what we see Marasi do in BoM, this is not the case. Marasi was easily able to casually go up to Set goons and grab their vials of metal, and was able to fully grasp what was happening around her while sped up. This shows that both delicate actions, such as striking more precisely and fully utilizing the speed difference is possible. 

While Marasi might have also been tapping some F-Zinc, Wax seemed to have plenty when he used it.

As you mention Marasi in that point was 'tapping everything', so possibly F-Steel + lower level F-Zinc -> what we saw there. F-Zinc does allow observing and processing at high speeds (as seen from Sazed and Wax with BoM), so it could fall within that scope.
Possibly she did not need to tap it as much as speed, but who knows.

Quote

Additionally, the bits we see of Bleeder in SoS from Wayne's time bubble support the idea that F-Steel imparts the full necessary perception and thought speed to fully utilize F-Steel

Bleeder is also Kandra, and under some effects of Autonomy, so she is not necessarily good example.
But good counterpoint nonetheless.

Quote

Edit: there is also this WoB 

I read that WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6398) exactly that while mental speed is increased to some extent, it is not as much as the actual physical speed but reaction time is sped up appropriately.
So with F-steel you can subconciously react exactly as fast as you are sped up, but you cannot think and plan and observe equally fast.

Edited March 28, 2023 by therunner

[StanLemon]

8 minutes ago, therunner said:

I read that WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6398) exactly that while mental speed is increased to some extent, it is not as much as the actual physical speed but reaction time is sped up appropriately.
So with F-steel you can subconciously react exactly as fast as you are sped up, but you cannot think and plan and observe equally fast.

Except at the end there Brandon says that bullet time is F-Steel's thing. This pretty much says that time seeming to slow down relative to the Steelrunner is a standard feature 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

There is a 4x difference from the perspective of someone breaking down the difference.  

There isn't, that would require someone to be both twice as fast as the normal person and half the speed of the steelrunner, which is impossible. It is litterally impossible for a single observer to find a 4x difference.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

You aren't just gaining an advantage when you tap speed.  You are also forcing a disadvantage.

No you aren't, because you opponent doesn't slow down, they don't suddenly move at half speed.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Relative to 0 -4 and 4 are both only 4 numbers away. From neither perspective are they more than 4 numbers away from a baseline of 0.  But every step you take in both directions the gap doesn't just get bigger by one side.  Every 1 step you take away from zero that total gap between them grows.  

The normal person doesn't slow down, they are still 0

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

When people think that overcoming 2x or 3x speed is a thing they can do I just don't think they realize how much that is to overcome. Every move the faster person takes doesn't just happen faster but it will happen more precisely and be a more dangerous attack because they have far longer to formulate it as well. 

They will be more precise, but when moving at double speed they will only be twice as precise, not 4x.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

But still there isn't just a 4x difference. You both feel it but for every ounce of advantage a speedster gets they also dish out an ounce of disadvantage onto their opponent.

You aren't forcing any disadvantage, they aren't weakened in the slightest.

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

And while F-Steel makes you physically faster, it actually does not make you perceive and think equally fast, so you won't get that much advantage to formulate plans, hit much more precisely etc. See WoB

• Mental improvement in F-Steel is minor (similar to strength in F-Iron, which we know is insubstantial) - https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11520

 

6 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Except at the end there Brandon says that bullet time is F-Steel's thing. This pretty much says that time seeming to slow down relative to the Steelrunner is a standard feature 

I think that it's possible that while Feruchemical steel does improve your reaction time, it may not be as much as it speeds up your body's movement.

Take Feruchemical iron: you get a little stronger when you tap a lot, or a little nimbler on your feet when you store your weight, but it isn't a one-to-one deal.

Quote

General Reddit 2016 (Feb. 19, 2016)

Phantine

I actually asked Peter Ahlstrom (who tends to handle math and magic system interactions with physics for Team Sanderson) about this a little while ago

A couple of friends and I are discussing if the iron feruchemy causing changes in speed is a retcon (since there's a mention in AoL that "increasing his weight manyfold would not affect his motion"), or if the effect is just more complicated (like only causing an instant change in speed if Wax changes weight while actively pushing on something).

Are you willing to weigh in on that, or is it just something we shouldn't be thinking too hard about?

Thanks

And his response was

I just don't know the answer to this question.

So I personally think the explanation is either 'Brandon thought it would be cooler for shifting your weight to change your velocity, and forgot he had mentioned it a couple times' or 'this is Wax's twinborn perk'. I'm leaning towards the latter, since the person who writes the magic system summaries at the end of the book specifically interrogated Wax about the effects, and mentioned she specifically was interested in his very unusual power combination.

As for the density thing, there is an explicit mention that you appear to get stronger when tapping, but only to the extent that you can still stand up and walk around - you still have more difficulty moving around overall. So (to pull out random numbers), if you're at 200% normal mass, you have 180% normal strength, and at 50% mass you have 60% normal strength. That means Wax habitually going around at 75% weight so he's 'light on his feet' makes sense - even if he's weaker overall, he's proportionally stronger.

The way I personally think about things for bullets or whatever, anything 'inside' the body (where 'inside' is defined in the same way that pushing/pulling metal 'inside' the body uses it) interacts with your body as if it were normal. So tapping iron doesn't cause your ultra-massive blood to be impossible for your heart to pump, but it also doesn't prevent a bullet from passing through your flesh. That seems to be consistent with how it's portrayed in the books.

Brandon Sanderson

Just a note: in the quote of mine above, I was trying (I believe) to find a way for Wax to indicate that weight doesn't influence the rate at which he falls. IE, acceleration in regards to gravity. It's tough, and I made the call (perhaps incorrectly) not to use modern physics terminology in the W&W books. It has been very hard then to explain:

1). Wax changing his weight doesn't change the pull of gravity on him, or the rate at which he falls. 2) He DOES follow the laws of conservation of momentum.

My talking around these things has let me to tie a few paragraphs in knots.

Enough F-steel or perhaps some F-zinc added to the mix would grant a more perfect perception speed though.

I also like this solution a bit since it would help to limit F-steel's overpowered nature just a little.

[therunner he/him]

56 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Except at the end there Brandon says that bullet time is F-Steel's thing. This pretty much says that time seeming to slow down relative to the Steelrunner is a standard feature 

No, he says this:

Quote

...

Brandon Sanderson

No... It'll bullet time a little bit, it certainly will, because you're thinking faster than everyone else, but it has applications beyond bullet timing. Bullet time is really--

Kurkistan

That’s steel’s thing?

Brandon Sanderson

That’s kind of steel's thing. They kind of overlap on that one, because the steel thing... But yeah. It's more like "I think fast, but my reaction speed is not sped up".

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

So bullet time is kind of steel thing, but there is overlap with F-Zinc. That leaves room for only partial speed up of perception (so you don't accidentally kill yourself).

[StanLemon]

29 minutes ago, therunner said:

No, he says this:

So bullet time is kind of steel thing, but there is overlap with F-Zinc. That leaves room for only partial speed up of perception (so you don't accidentally kill yourself).

He starts it with this

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

No... It'll bullet time a little bit, it certainly will, because you're thinking faster than everyone else, but it has applications beyond bullet timing. Bullet time is really--

Kurkistan

That’s steel’s thing?

Brandon Sanderson

That’s kind of steel's thing. They kind of overlap on that one, because the steel thing... But yeah. It's more like "I think fast, but my reaction speed is not sped up".

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

Saying bullet time is Steel's thing, but that F-Zinc has overlap and that there is a level of bullet time that F-Zinc can also give

[PinkPlasma she/her]

21 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Anyone who's ever played a video game that lets you slow down time even for a moment can attest how powerful it is

best example I can think of is in horizon zero dawn. you can slow time for about 3 seconds while aiming your bow, and it is incredibly useful.

[NameIess]

@therunner, that first WoB you linked to says that the temporal effects of F-steel are minor, not the sped-up speed of thought. The questioner was specifically asking about the ferring’s relation to the flow of time when using their powers.

 

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, Nameless* said:

@therunner, that first WoB you linked to says that the temporal effects of F-steel are minor, not the sped-up speed of thought. The questioner was specifically asking about the ferring’s relation to the flow of time when using their powers.

No, it literally says that mind-altering effects are minor. If increased speed of thought is not mind-altering effect, I don't know else what it could be.

Quote

Calderis

I recently got the opportunity to ask you a question about Feruchemical steel and if it was a temporal effect and you told me to define that better. When tapping steel, the mind of the Feruchemist is sped up and physics affects their actions normally. When storing, their mind is not slowed and the effect seems tortuously difficult to amass. Storing generally seems to be the more dangerous/difficult option in Feruchemy, so does [Feruchemical steel] alter a person's personal relationship to the flow of time, with the disconnect between the Physical and Cognitive as a drawback of storing?

Brandon Sanderson

I see what you're asking. The mind-altering effects of [Feruchemical steel] are similar to the slight strength you gain from [Feruchemical iron]--it is your Spiritual nature adapting to the new influx of an attribute that it's not really expecting, and siphoning some of that investiture to make you capable of actually using it. So there is a slight temporal effect here, but nothing as big as I think you're looking for.

Footnote: This question is a follow-up to this question.
Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 31, 2018)

And since F-steel stores Physical speed (as in movement of body), not mental speed, than the mechanism by which this mind-altering effect happens must be temporal by definition.

2 hours ago, StanLemon said:

He starts it with this

Saying bullet time is Steel's thing, but that F-Zinc has overlap and that there is a level of bullet time that F-Zinc can also give

So, he is saying that bullet time is a thing both do to some extant, which is what I said no?
 

[NameIess]

@therunner, it says that the speed of thought increases are similar to the slight strength increase in F-iron, not that the mental speed does not keep up with physical speed. And he also explains exactly why it doesn’t have to have a temporal effect in order to cause the increased mental speed in that same WoB. That’s the whole point.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Nameless*

[therunner he/him]

10 minutes ago, Nameless* said:

@therunner, it says that the speed of thought increases are similar to the slight strength increase in F-iron, not that the mental speed does not keep up with physical speed. And he also explains exactly why it doesn’t have to have a temporal effect in order to cause the increased mental speed in that same WoB. That’s the whole point.

Yeah, and in F-Iron strength explicitly does not keep up with weight increase. Hence, mental speed in F-steel does not keep up with physical speed, which is my point.

[NameIess]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Yeah, and in F-Iron strength explicitly does not keep up with weight increase. Hence, mental speed in F-steel does not keep up with physical speed, which is my point.

Except that all in-book evidence points to it keeping up with at least at low rates of tapping, much like F-iron.

[HSuperLee]

I feel the need to point out that even if f-steel doesn't improve perception speed, and even if it doesn't improve reflex speed (which I would think it has to just so you don't trip over your own super fast legs) it is still going to improve interception speed. Even the very limited human brain has time to register an attack faster their our bodies can keep up. At least that's been my experience. The difference with steel is that as soon as you know you need to move, you can. I personally believe f-steel is more powerful than that, but at the bare minimum, assuming the least benefit from f-steel possible, its still nuts in the advantage it gives to close quarters fighting. Will it let you dodge a bullet? Almost certainly not. However fast movies and tv have made you think a bullet is, you're underestimating it. But for anything not moving a mile per second, steel is going to work pretty well against it.

All that said, I'm now thinking how interesting it would be to have a power where you can move super fast, and maybe you can even react to things super quickly, but because you wouldn't be able to perceive your own motion, you'd have to move in bursts where you plan out your movements very carefully before doing them. From your perspective it would be a little like teleportation, just with the added effect of doing stuff during the transition. That would have been a cool way to portray f-steel. But I don't think that's actually how it will work, so this particular tangent is mostly irrelevant.

[therunner he/him]

11 hours ago, Nameless* said:

Except that all in-book evidence points to it keeping up with at least at low rates of tapping, much like F-iron.

Again, strength change F-Iron does not keep up with mass gain, otherwise Wax could not store to be lighter on his feet (since he would get proportionally weaker), nor can he move as easily when tapping (he cannot even fight properly when tapping a lot, more throwing himself at enemy then hitting them).

At low rates the difference won't be as large sure, but it will still be there. E.g. you physically speed up 2x, but your perception speeds up only ~1.4x