Dustbringer Oddities

[Scott Beckman]

I noticed a few weird things about the Dustbringers.

Dustbringers are the only ones in the 10 Orders of Knights Radiant info page on Brandon's website whose info about their oaths are written in past tense:

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"I will seek self-mastery"

Dustbringer oaths were themed toward responsibility. They were led to understand that the powers they used needed to be properly channeled, much as their own desires and wills needed proper form and shape. As a Dustbringer moved through the oaths, they were taught greater powers of destruction—and are one of the only orders where their abilities weren’t all available at the beginning, but instead were delivered slowly, as they made the proper oaths. Each oath led to a greater understanding of power, the nature of holding it, and the associated responsibility.

They also didn't like being called "Dustbringers" before the Recreance, instead preferring the name "Releasers" according to both the above Knights Radiant page and a Words of Radiance epigraph:

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And when they were spoken of by the common folk, the Releasers claimed to be misjudged because of the dreadful nature of their power; and when they dealt with others, always were they firm in their claim that other epithets, notably “Dustbringers,” often heard in the common speech, were unacceptable substitutions, in particular for their similarity to the word “Voidbringers.” They did also exercise anger in great prejudice regarding it, though to many who speak, there was little difference between these two assemblies.

Spark bonds Malata for vengeance (Coppermind link):

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The first known ashspren to initiate a Nahel bond since the Recreance is Spark, who bonded Malata. Many of Spark's friends were killed in the Recreance and she claims that her only objectives with the bond are to get revenge and break things.

That doesn't sound like seeking self-mastery to me. I'm guessing that the Stormfather would not accept oaths with such intent. Would Cultivation? I don't know enough about her yet to claim a strong opinion on this, as I can see arguments on both sides. Perhaps Spark is corrupted in some way, causing Malata's oaths to be accepted by a different entity. I'd very much doubt Odium would be the one doing this if Sja-anat enlightened Spark since Renarin has advanced far enough to summon Glys as a Shardblade, and Odium probably doesn't want to give the black cloud in his plans any more power. Could Sja-anat be the one accepting or even intercepting oaths?

I would need to gather more evidence before posting a full theory, but I am curious about this Order now. I'm wondering if it's possible that the Ashspren and their Order changing. Or maybe something else weird is happening.

Or I'm just looking for mysteries where there aren't any, as is a curse for so many in this fandom

Edited February 23, 2023 by Scott Beckman

[TheSurvivorofDeath]

The thing with the oaths is that, Honor wasn’t really about Honor. Towards the end, Honor only cared about Oaths being kept, not what they were about. And the Stormfather’s indifference to the plights of individuals at times echoes this. So the Stormfather would likely still accept oaths with slightly less than honorable intent. Also, Spark initiating the bond for vengeance doesn’t mean Malata swore her oaths for vengeance. The spren doesn’t control the intent of the oaths.

[alder24]

That's interesting. Spren has something to say in judging if a knight is following Oaths and doing the right thing. Each Oath can be sworn with different words but has to follow a certain overall idea. Moreover Strormfather, even if he didn't like that, still accepted Kaladin's 3rd Oath, and even Syl said "you can't stop me if he says the words", so it looks like Stormfather doesn't have that big authority over the Oaths. This makes me wonder if, because of Ashspren's influence, Dustbringers will now swear a different kind of Oaths. Maybe they will be still following the same overall idea of self-mastery (but each one would be more vengeful and aimed to use their powers for destruction), or choose the new one, like vengeance or something. Stormfather would still have to accept those words.

[Marabout]

I disagree with the notion that the oaths are controlled by the human rather than the Spren.  There is good evidence to show that it’s the character of the Spren that shapes the intent of the oath.  Syl, for example, almost died because Kaladin wasn’t adhering to Her values whereas Pattern wouldn’t give a damn if Shallan lied and then participated in a coup (he’d probably enjoy it).  Remember that Kaladin at the time didn’t think he was doing anything wrong or breaking any oaths so his perception of the intention of the oath was faulty and the true holder of the intent was Syl.

[alder24]

43 minutes ago, Marabout said:

I disagree with the notion that the oaths are controlled by the human rather than the Spren.  There is good evidence to show that it’s the character of the Spren that shapes the intent of the oath.  Syl, for example, almost died because Kaladin wasn’t adhering to Her values whereas Pattern wouldn’t give a damn if Shallan lied and then participated in a coup (he’d probably enjoy it).  Remember that Kaladin at the time didn’t think he was doing anything wrong or breaking any oaths so his perception of the intention of the oath was faulty and the true holder of the intent was Syl.

You are right, but comparing spren's values from 2 different orders is not a good example. WoBs:

Spoiler

Krios (paraphrased)

At the end of Oathbringer, Kaladin says that the Oaths are about perception. So, what would happen when a crazy person bonds a crazy spren? Is there a hard limit to what the Oaths allow or could they just go on a John Wick style rampage?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Perception will get you a very long way, like Nightblood proves. So you can go beyond the Oaths, but there will be a hard limit. Although it will be hard to find a such fitting pair of human and spren.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

Spoiler

[...]

FirebreatherRay

We've seen that the interpretation of the oaths is largely up to each individual spren (to the point that we've seen an entire Order of Radiants change their allegiance). Would it be possible for there to be a "sociopathic spren" that has interpreted the oaths so radically differently from the rest of their kind that it appears, to an outsider, that they are unbound in the same way the wielder of an honorblade is unbound? Or is there something essential about the nature of spren that prevents this?

Brandon Sanderson

I think that spren could go further than we've seen so far, and indeed, many of the older Skybreakers might be horrified by how far their order has gone. However, there are SOME fundamentals that even a spren with a very different interpretation wouldn't be able to abandon.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

[Marabout]

I agree that there are limits

Spren are forces of nature and have to follow some basic principles / laws.  In other words, there are some aspects of their nature that they cannot change, no matter what their personality or beliefs.

A dumbed down example would be that a fire Spren can’t just be a water Spren if they want to.

I know it’s more complicated with the higher Spren, but each type of Spren would have a hard baseline that they can’t deviate from.  Now there may be a Lot of leeway above that baseline but they cannot change their fundamental nature.

The exception to this would probably be corrupted/enlightened Spren. 

 

[Torero]

DELETED as not contributing constructively

Edited March 21, 2023 by Torero