How do Feruchemical and Hemalurgy nicrosil differ?

[Mistchemist16]

In both Feruchemy and Hemalurgy, nicrosil stores Investiture. Yet, I don’t think they function the same, even accounting for different Hemalurgic spikes used on Allomancy and Feruchemy. In particular, Hemalurgy distinguishes between “powers” and “investiture”: both Atium and aluminum mention it

Pagerunner

The Hemalurgy table, you wrote down "atium steals any power, lerasium is all abilities, nicrosil is Investiture"; what's the difference between those three?

Hemalurgic atium, lerasium, and nicrosil. What's powers, abilities, and Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

People are Invested in ways that do not give them active powers. So for instance, everyone on Nalthis is Invested. Everyone in the cosmere is, really. You want to steal their Investiture, but they don't have a power. You're still ripping off a piece of their soul. So there is a distinction between the actual Investiture that's in a human being and a specific power that they have.

So that distinction is pretty easy. You can also, with Hemalurgy, steal specific things. You can steal just general Investiture. You can steal, if you want--this is where the kandra Blessings come from. You can instead steal specific things that are not like stealing Allomancy. Stealing, for instance, someone's mental acuity.

Pagerunner

So abilities is like the half that's all the strength, speed, all that kind of stuff? Those are abilities, versus the Metallic Arts are all powers?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Pagerunner

Then Investiture, is that offworld magics?

Brandon Sanderson

No, no, it's the raw power.

Pagerunner

Nicrosil is their soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. A piece of their soul, essentially.

Pagerunner

So how would you go about stealing an offworld power?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to depend. A Breath, you would steal with nicrosil. It's general Investiture, is what you would probably going call that. You could forcibly remove someone's Breath from them. The ability to be a Sand Master you would steal with the power ability.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

 

The impression I got was that for off world magics, nicrosil would take end neutral magics (you need Investiture from yourself) and end positive would be Atium. Hence why you need to steal Breath with the former and Sand Mastery with the latter. Yet, we know Nicrosil stores both Allomancy and Feruchemy. On top of that, nicrosil metalminds should be able to store Surgebinding

kingbirdy (paraphrased)

Could Feruchemical nicrosil be used to store other Invested abilities, such as a Returned Breath or the abilities of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that's possible.

DragonCon 2016 (Sept. 4, 2016)

So my question is this: does Feruchemy just lack that distinction altogether? I assume so. Hemalurgy is a different system and it makes sense that it might function differently. In that case, you should be able to store Sand Mastery in nicrosil, but not use spikes that way.
 

You could also argue that Atium, as a true wild card, can also steal Investiture. However, that makes aluminum Hemalurgy a bit weird since it removes (not steals) all powers. If all Invesiture were included in aluminum, that implies that it affects the very soul and likely destroys it Nightblood style. 

Anyway, what do you guys think? Am I missing something here? Let me know your thoughts.

 

[alder24]

Nicrosil feruchemy stores the ability to use investiture (power), like allomancy, feruchemy, surgebinding, not the investiture itself like Stormlight.

Nicrosil spike steals just the investiture, like stormlight (maybe?), Breaths, or the innate investiture people are born with (like on Scadrial people are just slightly more invested because of Preservation). But it doesn't take away all of the soul, just a piece of it. It doesn't also steal any power/ability to use investiture.

Atium spike steals any power/ability to use investiture. It steals just the ability, but not investiture like Breaths. Any kind of invested art you want to steal, you use Atium in the right spot.

Aluminum spike removes all powers/ability to use investiture. So a Scadrial Mistborn spiked with aluminum would not be able to use allomancy, but his soul, and investiture granted by Preservation and Ruin in him would be fine. How it works, or does it carry hemalurgic charge, we don't know yet. 

Power is the ability to use investiture, and investiture is just the part of someone's soul.

Edited February 3, 2023 by alder24

[Mistchemist16]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Nicrosil feruchemy stores the ability to use investiture (power), like allomancy, feruchemy, surgebinding, not the investiture itself like Stormlight.

Nicrosil spike steals just the investiture, like stormlight (maybe?), Breaths, or the innate investiture people are born with (like on Scadrial people are just slightly more invested because of Preservation). But it doesn't take away all of the soul, just a piece of it. It doesn't also steal any power/ability to use investiture.

Atium spike steals any power/ability to use investiture. It steals just the ability, but not investiture like Breaths. Any kind of invested art you want to steal, you use Atium in the right spot.

Aluminum spike removes all powers/ability to use investiture. So a Scadrial Mistborn spiked with aluminum would not be able to use allomancy, but his soul, and investiture granted by Preservation and Ruin in him would be fine. How it works, or does it carry hemalurgic charge, we don't know yet. 

Power is the ability to use investiture, and investiture is just the part of someone's soul.

So are you saying that Feruchemical nicrosil can store anything Atium can steal in Hemalurgy? That sounds like it. In fact, now that I think about it, using Atium spikes on an Awakener wouldn’t take their Breath. It would just let the donor keep the Heightenings, but not Awaken with it, as if they weren’t from Nalthis. The opposite then happens with the recipient: they can Awaken easily but actually have to get some Breaths. Interesting…

Pechvarry (paraphrased)

What happens when non-Nalthians come to Nalthis.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They cannot use their own soul to Awaken but could do so with obtained Breath.

Pechvarry (paraphrased)

So anyone could start Awakening once they received Breaths?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You would probably have to jump through some hoops to Awaken (talks about systems needing rigged up to work on different planets), but anyone can benefit from a Breath. Essentially said "it's not that easy!"

Words of Radiance Dayton signing (March 19, 2014)

Based on the fact that nicrosil can store divine breaths, it might even be able to do anything that falls under H-nicrosil and H-Atium. Does that sound right?

kingbirdy (paraphrased)

Could Feruchemical nicrosil be used to store other Invested abilities, such as a Returned Breath or the abilities of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that's possible.

DragonCon 2016 (Sept. 4, 2016)

 I’d assume you would also use nicrosil spikes if you wanted to become an Elantrian, though you might need something else for Aon Dor. 

As for taking someone’s soul, I was also referring to the part Nightblood takes from a human with no Breaths or other Investiture. Taking the spark of life would kill the donor, but that’s most Hemalurgy anyway. Could you put it in an Awakened object, blood smeared or otherwise, and give it true life? A Lifeless? Perhaps even a corpse. Once you’ve got something alive, then you can move on to Connection and Identity manipulation.

Finally, what if you spiked a spren with nicrosil? Would their complete self be consumed into the spike? Could you give one a body by spiking a human? That would be amusing. Maybe you could do some entirely too elaborate shenanigans to put a bonded spren in their Radient’s body and vice versa. Then have the spren in human form make a new Nahel bond. Stupid but incredible.

Edit: In regards to using F-Nicrosil to store actual H-Nicrosil Investiture, is that actually possible?  Since it seems to work like a copper mind?
 

Pagerunner

When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! Like a coppermind.

That wouldn’t rule out Breaths as individual units, especially since divine Breaths work, but could be tricky for Stormlight or anything that’s harder to quantify. If you have any thoughts on how that works, let me know

Edited February 3, 2023 by Mistchemist16

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

So are you saying that Feruchemical nicrosil can store anything Atium can steal in Hemalurgy? That sounds like it. In fact, now that I think about it, using Atium spikes on an Awakener wouldn’t take their Breath. It would just let the donor keep the Heightenings, but not Awaken with it, as if they weren’t from Nalthis. The opposite then happens with the recipient: they can Awaken easily but actually have to get some Breaths. Interesting…

I don't think spiking Awakener with Atium would result in this. Awakening is a system that everybody could use, as long as they have Breaths. So no need to steal anything with Atium.

12 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

Based on the fact that nicrosil can store divine breaths, it might even be able to do anything that falls under H-nicrosil and H-Atium. Does that sound right?

H-Atium for sure, but I don't think it would allow you to store raw investiture that H-nicrosil steals, like Preservation part of Scadrials. Regular Breaths I don't know, maybe.

Spoiler

Questioner

With spikes, would you be able to actually transfer Breaths, when they get to the other planets?

Brandon Sanderson

So spikes rip off pieces of the soul and so Breaths are not going to be part of the soul. You could maybe get a divine Breath but I haven't really decided on regular Breaths, they're kind of stuck there in the Physical Realm which is not a thing that spikes are dealing with. Divine Breath, potentially, because that's something that's actually melding onto your soul. But, you know, when you're using the Breaths they reach through to the Spiritual Realm so, maybe if you got it while the Breaths were kinetic, right, while you're using them, then you might be able to rip them off. I'm not a hundred percent certain on that one.

Bystander

There's still things to decide upon.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there's still things, like I have to kind of see. My instinct says no right now. But, you know, how they interact is not something that I have-- Yeah.

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)

14 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

 I’d assume you would also use nicrosil spikes if you wanted to become an Elantrian, though you might need something else for Aon Dor. 

You might need multiple spikes here. Atium to steal the power, and you need to steal connection as well, so duralumin. Connection and Aons provide you with connection necessary for obtaining the Dor.

Spoiler

mail-mi

Could you spike Elantrian-ness? Like, could you Hemalurgically spike Elantrian-ness?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically, yes.

mail-mi

Could you out of a Reod Elantrian? The zombie ones?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, yes you could.

mail-mi

You could?

Brandon Sanderson

So what you would be spiking there is their Connection to...to the planet, first. That's gonna be the big important thing. So you're going to overwrite your Connection. Um, and then you're going to....it's going to be a complicated process because you're going to have to spike the actual ability to have been transformed, that's gonna be harder.

mail-mi

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Does that make sense?

mail-mi

Yeah, so it's gonna take two spikes.

Brandon Sanderson

It's gonna take two spikes.

mail-mi

Alright.

Brandon Sanderson

And you gonna have to get the right Connection to the right place. Let's say you spike somebody from MaiPon, and then you spike an Elantrian, you're not going to be able to use it, you're not connected to the right area.

Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014)

21 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

As for taking a piece of someone’s soul, I was also referring to the part Nightblood takes from a human with no Breaths or other Investiture. It would kill them but you’re already doing that to begin with. It also wouldn’t be good Nightblood fuel. Could you put it in an Awakened object, blood smeared or otherwise, and give it true life? A Lifeless? Perhaps even a corpse. Once you’ve got something alive, then you can move on to Connection and Identity manipulation.

Nightblood works differently than Hemalurgy. Nightblood needs fuel, Hemalurgy just rips a piece of soul from somebody. Aluminum wouldn't work like Nightblood, and most likely wouldn't work on Awakened objects, as they are not humans, and don't have a soul. You could spike a Lifeless:

Spoiler

Pechvarry (paraphrased)

Could you make a spike from a Lifeless?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

"Oooo interesting!" He said their soul is so drained there wouldn't be much left, so you could only get the barest hint.

Pechvarry (paraphrased)

But you COULD technically get a charge?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, but it would be very weak.

Words of Radiance Dayton signing (March 19, 2014)

 

Wyrmhero (paraphrased)

Can you Hemalurgically spike a dead thing, similar to how Breath goes into dead things? Could you spike a Lifeless?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, if there was enough of the soul left for the spike to take.

London signing (Aug. 4, 2014)

21 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

Finally, what if you spiked a spren with nicrosil? Would their complete self be consumed into the spike? Could you give one a body by spiking a human? That would be amusing. Maybe you could do some entirely too elaborate shenanigans to put a bonded spren in their Radient’s body and vice versa. Then have the spren in human form make a new Nahel bond. Stupid but incredible.

No, spike has a limit of how much hemalurgic charge they can fit. So a spike would not take all of spren's soul, just some part of it. It would wound a spren, maybe even turn him into a deadeye, but won't consume him whole. And yes, you could give it to a human, it would make him just more invested with Honor/Cultivation investiture, possibly giving him some slight Heightening-like effects. But there is a "better" way to utilize spiking sprens - you could steal Surgebinding.

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

If I wanted to Hemalurgically acquire a power from First of the Sun, which metal would the spike need to be?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This is going to be pretty complicated, but several metals would work.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would it involve Connection between the person being spiked and the bird?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well it would be even harder than on Roshar, where you need to somehow spike the spren and also the Radiant. You would need to spike the bird and steal the power, but also spike the person and steal Connection.

GenCon 2017 (Aug. 17, 2017)

 

35 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

Edit: In regards to using F-Nicrosil to store actual H-Nicrosil Investiture, is that actually possible?  Since it seems to work like a copper mind?

I don't think so, F-nicrosil stores the ability, and H-nicrosil carries just raw investiture, not the ability. It's not the same. Divine Breath could be the only one that can be stored.

[Mistchemist16]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't think spiking Awakener with Atium would result in this. Awakening is a system that everybody could use, as long as they have Breaths. So no need to steal anything with Atium.

Only if you’re from Nalthis. Otherwise, you need something besides the actual Breaths. That being said, H-Duralumin might be better to use Connection to Nalthis or even Identity. But Awakening isn’t as free as you say. I think there is an underlying factor that lets people from Nalthis actually command their Breath, hence the WoB I referenced. Which could be taken instead of actual Breath by duralumin or nicrosil.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

H-Atium for sure, but I don't think it would allow you to store raw investiture that H-nicrosil steals, like Preservation part of Scadrials. Regular Breaths I don't know, maybe.

Why wouldn’t it take normal Breaths? Divine Breaths may have a lot more power and very different expression, but the basic nature as transferable Investiture is the same. 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

You might need multiple spikes here. Atium to steal the power, and you need to steal connection as well, so duralumin. Connection and Aons provide you with connection necessary for obtaining the Dor.

  Reveal hidden contents

mail-mi

Could you spike Elantrian-ness? Like, could you Hemalurgically spike Elantrian-ness?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically, yes.

mail-mi

Could you out of a Reod Elantrian? The zombie ones?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, yes you could.

mail-mi

You could?

Brandon Sanderson

So what you would be spiking there is their Connection to...to the planet, first. That's gonna be the big important thing. So you're going to overwrite your Connection. Um, and then you're going to....it's going to be a complicated process because you're going to have to spike the actual ability to have been transformed, that's gonna be harder.

mail-mi

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Does that make sense?

mail-mi

Yeah, so it's gonna take two spikes.

Brandon Sanderson

It's gonna take two spikes.

mail-mi

Alright.

Brandon Sanderson

And you gonna have to get the right Connection to the right place. Let's say you spike somebody from MaiPon, and then you spike an Elantrian, you're not going to be able to use it, you're not connected to the right area.

Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014)

 

At most, you’d need three spikes. One nicrosil to change the self via Investiture, one Duralumin to get Connection to the Dor, and one to actually use AonDor. And that’s highballing it. But from that WoB, it probably just takes H-Duralumin and either H-Atium or H-Nicrosil. I’d probably lean H-Atium.

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Nightblood works differently than Hemalurgy. Nightblood needs fuel, Hemalurgy just rips a piece of soul from somebody. Aluminum wouldn't work like Nightblood, and most likely wouldn't work on Awakened objects, as they are not humans, and don't have a soul. You could spike a Lifeless:

It doesn’t matter how the feeding is done. Cosmere humans have an extra layer of Investiture beyond even innate Investiture, hence why Drabs are still alive at all. Yet, surely Nightblood would still kill one (though it would be a cool hack otherwise). As long as you intended to steal the spark of life, you should be able to.

Also, let me clarify what I mean by spiking objects. I mean taking that basic spark of life Nightblood feeds on last. Putting it in a nicrosil spike and then using it on an object or Lifeless. You might need to cover an object with blood, but it should theoretically work. As long as you worked quickly, you could probably transfer most of it. Whether or not that would make a functional soul is up for debate. But if not, there’s always duralumin spikes : )

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

No, spike has a limit of how much hemalurgic charge they can fit. So a spike would not take all of spren's soul, just some part of it. It would wound a spren, maybe even turn him into a deadeye, but won't consume him whole. And yes, you could give it to a human, it would make him just more invested with Honor/Cultivation investiture, possibly giving him some slight Heightening-like effects. But there is a "better" way to utilize spiking sprens - you could steal Surgebinding.

  Hide contents

Questioner (paraphrased)

If I wanted to Hemalurgically acquire a power from First of the Sun, which metal would the spike need to be?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This is going to be pretty complicated, but several metals would work.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would it involve Connection between the person being spiked and the bird?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well it would be even harder than on Roshar, where you need to somehow spike the spren and also the Radiant. You would need to spike the bird and steal the power, but also spike the person and steal Connection.

GenCon 2017 (Aug. 17, 2017)

 

Ok, but what if you had a bigger spike? Could you put a spren in a koloss or a mistwraith? Maybe even a regular animal? Surgebinding is far from useless but I could see uses for spren with physical bodies. Or even Cognitive Shadows with bodies…

Edited February 4, 2023 by Mistchemist16

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

Only if you’re from Nalthis. Otherwise, you need something besides the actual Breaths.

We've already seen non-Nalthian Awakening out of Nalthis, OB spoilers:

Spoiler

Hoid used Breaths to Awaken in OB epilogue. 

I will try to find some more WoBs on that, by the way I see it, if you have Breaths, you can Awaken (maybe there is something small that is also required, but Breaths are the most important part of it). They did "talk about systems needing rigged up to work on different planets", and what I believe it is referring to, is that you can power Awakening with any kind of Investiture, if you know how to do it:

Spoiler

Ilkhan2016

Breath and Stormlight are both forms of Investiture. AFAIK you can power any of the magic systems from any form of Investiture. Zahel is on Roshar, I believe, primarily due to how easy Investiture (Stormlight) is to come across.

AFAIK the form of Investiture doesn't change anything about the abilities. For example, Szeth was sucked out of Stormlight when he drew Nightblood; and Azure used Stormlight to Awaken in Shadesmar.

/u/mistborn is that right?

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of this depends on the Investiture and the magic in question. Azure was legit using Breaths, for example--ones she'd brought with her. But Szeth was able to feed Stormlight to Nightblood, much as Vasher uses Stormlight to keep himself alive.

To Awaken with Stormlight, the easiest thing to do would be to first change Stormlight into Breaths--something that Azure doesn't know how to do. (Admittedly, Hoid doesn't either, so it's not like it's a simple thing to achieve.) You could also theoretically use some magical (or mechanical) means to power your Awakening with a different form of Investiture.

Extesian

This is very interesting. Is it possible then in the Cosmere for the 'intent' (spin or however described) of Investiture to be changed? And I mean within reasonable limits (not the powers of six shards or any of that). Can a Shard effectively grow in power in a place (e.g. toward an avatar) through another Shard's Investiture being changed (not just corrupted)? Or is it just making one type ('intent' - you should canonize a word for this :D) of Investiture mimic the properties of another?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of the ways of accomplishing what you're talking about would involve either 1) fooling/overwriting your spiritual makeup somehow. (This is what Hemalurgy does, for example.) 2) Refining the power somehow into a more pure form.

But there are a lot of variables. The way magic from Nalthis works, for example, the system is just looking for any available Investiture to power itself--and so basically anything will do, regardless of the source. This includes consuming your own soul, in some cases...

You'll see terminology coming along eventually that facilitates talking about all of this. I'm not yet decided on some of it.

Celestial_Blu3

How many Breaths does [Azure] have by her final appearance in OB?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO, I'm afraid.

General Reddit 2019 (April 25, 2019)

 

9 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

That being said, H-Duralumin might be better to use Connection to Nalthis or even Identity. But Awakening isn’t as free as you say. I think there is an underlying factor that lets people from Nalthis actually command their Breath, hence the WoB I referenced. Which could be taken instead of actual Breath by duralumin or nicrosil.

I don't think you need it, Breaths stick to your Identity and the soul. The nature of Endowment is to just give, the pure act of giving without getting anything in return. The same way that Hemalurgy can be used everywhere, because Ruin doesn't care about location, he is everywhere, and just wants the entropy to increase, the same way Endowment doesn't care about Breaths, after they were given to Nalthians. The process of gifting is in the past. That's how I understand it.

Spoiler

Badger1289

If Investiture can’t be moved beyond a certain point away from its world/solar system, how in the Cosmere did three Awakeners end up on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Investiture from different systems acts in different ways. Certain people have managed, for example, to get some kinds of Investiture to leave their home world through the use of a kind of magical pipeline. Breaths attach to the identity of the individual, and are fully given away--freely, which removes some of this Connection. It's a nature of Endowment that the gift is given without strings attached, so to speak. But while it's a renewable resource, it's a difficult one.

Roshar is extra "sticky" so to speak with Investiture. It's part of the nature of Honor, Cultivation, and oaths. So getting it off is a problem, though collecting it is not.

Echono

Wouldn't consuming it also be a problem? You need a direct or secondary Bond to take in Stormlight Investiture. It's not like metals or Breaths that anyone could absorb. Although a certain grouchy ardent might have found a way...

Brandon Sanderson

You are right in that Stormlight is more being seen as a power source, since certain systems in the cosmere can work on a variety of different kinds. Not just anyone could make use of it, at least not unless it is refined.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 8, 2020)

 

9 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

Why wouldn’t it take normal Breaths? Divine Breaths may have a lot more power and very different expression, but the basic nature as transferable Investiture is the same. 

Because Brandon hasn't decided yet, like WoB says. Divine Breath is different from regular - Divine Breath replaces the soul, while regular ones just stick to it. Divine Breath gives you the ability of being a Cognitive Shadow, while regular one gives you no abilities at all. That's why there is a possibility that regular Breaths can't be stored in Feruchemical nicrosil. F-nicrosil stores only the ability to use investiture, not raw investiture. We have to wait for Brandon to decide on this one.

9 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

At most, you’d need three spikes. One nicrosil to change the self via Investiture, one Duralumin to get Connection to the Dor, and one to actually use AonDor. And that’s highballing it. But from that WoB, it probably just takes H-Duralumin and either H-Atium or H-Nicrosil. I’d probably lean H-Atium.

You don't need nicrosil spike. When you steal "Elantrianism" with Atium, and connection to the Dor with duralumin, you're soul is now "tricked" into thinking you're Elantrian now, and will draw from the Dor to heal you, change you and invest you in the proper way. Connection to the Dor gives you that Investiture you need. 

9 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

It doesn’t matter how the feeding is done. Cosmere humans have an extra layer of Investiture beyond even innate Investiture, hence why Drabs are still alive at all. Yet, surely Nightblood would still kill one (though it would be a cool hack otherwise). As long as you intended to steal the spark of life, you should be able to.

Drabs still have a soul, weaker one than other Cosmere humans, but that's still Investiture. Nightblood feeds on Investiture, matter and energy as well. All three states at once. It converts matter/energy into investiture to fuel himself, as matter and energy are other states of investiture, the same way that in our Universe matter is energy, but just in different state. Nightblood feeds on every kind of investiture, that includes soul, matter (body) and mind as well. Warbreaker spoilers:

Spoiler

Nightblood feeds even on walls and stone, but gets very little from it. He turned walls into a hole on touch.

What is the "spark of life"? I think it's just a soul - investiture. In Cosmere life is composed of the body, the mind, and the soul. And that's what Nightblood is consuming when other forms of investiture end (the first WoB in this post "the system is just looking for any available Investiture to power itself [...] This includes consuming your own soul, in some cases...").

10 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

Also, let me clarify what I mean by spiking objects. I mean taking that basic spark of life Nightblood feeds on last. Putting it in a nicrosil spike and then using it on an object or Lifeless. You might need to cover an object with blood, but it should theoretically work. As long as you worked quickly, you could probably transfer most of it. Whether or not that would make a functional soul is up for debate. But if not, there’s always duralumin spikes : )

I think the "spark of life" is just a soul. You can't steal whole soul with one spike. And there is no way to put a spike on a non-living object as far as we know. You need blood of the donor/recipient as this is the way hemalurgy connects itself with their soul. Non-living objects don't have a soul or blood or binding points, so hemalurgy won't work. I doubt it would even work on an Awakened object as it's still lacking. On Lifeless you can - if you can steal from Lifeless, you can also give spikes to it. Lifeless is different. Making one permanently takes a Breath away, and it "creates/replaces" a soul, very weak one, but still it's some kind of soul. So you could give a Lifeless just a nicrosil spikes with pieces of someone else's investiture, and that would most likely make Lifeless's "soul" bigger, and make him more sapient in process. But using hemalurgy to give spikes to a Lifeless is an interesting way do create some weird effects.

Duralumin steals connection, how are you going to make a soul out of connections?

10 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

Ok, but what if you had a bigger spike? Could you put a spren in a koloss or a mistwraith? Maybe even a regular animal? Surgebinding is far from useless but I could see uses for spren with physical bodies. Or even Cognitive Shadows with bodies…

Bigger spike can fit a bigger charge. But you won't just place a spren in it - only investiture he's composed of. I doubt it would be like putting sprens inside the gems. With hemalurgy you ripping out all connections spren has, everything that makes him alive, and you would most likely just end up with raw investiture in a spike, that used to be a spren. You won't put a spren into somebody, you would just make him more invested. Spren will be dead.

[Mistchemist16]

On 2/4/2023 at 4:37 AM, alder24 said:

We've already seen non-Nalthian Awakening out of Nalthis, OB spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Hoid used Breaths to Awaken in OB epilogue. 

I will try to find some more WoBs on that, by the way I see it, if you have Breaths, you can Awaken (maybe there is something small that is also required, but Breaths are the most important part of it). They did "talk about systems needing rigged up to work on different planets", and what I believe it is referring to, is that you can power Awakening with any kind of Investiture, if you know how to do it:

  Reveal hidden contents

Ilkhan2016

Breath and Stormlight are both forms of Investiture. AFAIK you can power any of the magic systems from any form of Investiture. Zahel is on Roshar, I believe, primarily due to how easy Investiture (Stormlight) is to come across.

AFAIK the form of Investiture doesn't change anything about the abilities. For example, Szeth was sucked out of Stormlight when he drew Nightblood; and Azure used Stormlight to Awaken in Shadesmar.

/u/mistborn is that right?

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of this depends on the Investiture and the magic in question. Azure was legit using Breaths, for example--ones she'd brought with her. But Szeth was able to feed Stormlight to Nightblood, much as Vasher uses Stormlight to keep himself alive.

To Awaken with Stormlight, the easiest thing to do would be to first change Stormlight into Breaths--something that Azure doesn't know how to do. (Admittedly, Hoid doesn't either, so it's not like it's a simple thing to achieve.) You could also theoretically use some magical (or mechanical) means to power your Awakening with a different form of Investiture.

Extesian

This is very interesting. Is it possible then in the Cosmere for the 'intent' (spin or however described) of Investiture to be changed? And I mean within reasonable limits (not the powers of six shards or any of that). Can a Shard effectively grow in power in a place (e.g. toward an avatar) through another Shard's Investiture being changed (not just corrupted)? Or is it just making one type ('intent' - you should canonize a word for this :D) of Investiture mimic the properties of another?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of the ways of accomplishing what you're talking about would involve either 1) fooling/overwriting your spiritual makeup somehow. (This is what Hemalurgy does, for example.) 2) Refining the power somehow into a more pure form.

But there are a lot of variables. The way magic from Nalthis works, for example, the system is just looking for any available Investiture to power itself--and so basically anything will do, regardless of the source. This includes consuming your own soul, in some cases...

You'll see terminology coming along eventually that facilitates talking about all of this. I'm not yet decided on some of it.

Celestial_Blu3

How many Breaths does [Azure] have by her final appearance in OB?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO, I'm afraid.

General Reddit 2019 (April 25, 2019)

 

Read the WoB again
 

Pechvarry (paraphrased)

What happens when non-Nalthians come to Nalthis.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They cannot use their own soul to Awaken but could do so with obtained Breath.

Pechvarry (paraphrased)

So anyone could start Awakening once they received Breaths?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You would probably have to jump through some hoops to Awaken (talks about systems needing rigged up to work on different planets), but anyone can benefit from a Breath. Essentially said "it's not that easy!"

Words of Radiance Dayton signing (March 19, 2014)

 

The question was clearly about using Breaths and there is no reference to any other Investiture. The “own soul” part also logically refers to the fact that non Nalthsians don’t have Breath naturally. It doesn’t mean “using other Investiture”. As for your example, Awakening is still possible if you jumped through the requisite hoops. But just giving Breath to a world hopper wouldn’t meet that requirement

On 2/4/2023 at 4:37 AM, alder24 said:

What is the "spark of life"? I think it's just a soul - investiture. In Cosmere life is composed of the body, the mind, and the soul. And that's what Nightblood is consuming when other forms of investiture end (the first WoB in this post "the system is just looking for any available Investiture to power itself [...] This includes consuming your own soul, in some cases...").

I think the "spark of life" is just a soul. You can't steal whole soul with one spike. And there is no way to put a spike on a non-living object as far as we know. You need blood of the donor/recipient as this is the way hemalurgy connects itself with their soul. Non-living objects don't have a soul or blood or binding points, so hemalurgy won't work. I doubt it would even work on an Awakened object as it's still lacking. On Lifeless you can - if you can steal from Lifeless, you can also give spikes to it. Lifeless is different. Making one permanently takes a Breath away, and it "creates/replaces" a soul, very weak one, but still it's some kind of soul. So you could give a Lifeless just a nicrosil spikes with pieces of someone else's investiture, and that would most likely make Lifeless's "soul" bigger, and make him more sapient in process. But using hemalurgy to give spikes to a Lifeless is an interesting way do create some weird effects.

Duralumin steals connection, how are you going to make a soul out of connections?

Questioner

So I have heard that it is harder to Push a Shardblade with Allomancy than it is a normal sword.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Is that true of both living and dead Shardblades?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Equally?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, no.

Questioner

Okay, so it's even more difficult to Push one alive.

Brandon Sanderson

The thing-- An Invested object is more difficult with any of the magics. So, for instance, even a Feruchemical metalmind is going to be harder. Depends on how much it is Invested, and things like that. But, y'know, it can range from you barely notice it or don't even notice it to "Wow, that's hard to Push on". Same for a Hemalurgical spike, depending on how much Investiture is left over, how long has it been outside of a body, and things like that. Same thing Pushing on something inside a person's body, their Investiture is going to interfere with it.

Same thing, when you read White Sand, why a person slapping their hand through someone's stream of sand can throw off the entire creation of the sand mastery. It's just-- There's interference patterns, and things like that.

Questioner

And is that true of a Drab as well? Does the body affect--

Brandon Sanderson

The Drab is going to have less.

Questioner

So they just have less Investiture, but they still have some natural Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

They do still have some. They've lost their Breath but that isn't the entirety of the Investiture inside of them.

<snip>

Firefight release party (Jan. 5, 2015)

That Investiture that even Drabs retain is the Spark of Life. Yes, you could argue it’s just Investiture. But I was under the impression that it was the seed that grows into the bigger soul (you’re born with it and it causes your mind to form). You wouldn’t get the donor’s mind, but my theory is that the seed could basically grow into a new soul under the right circumstances. Kinda like how changing an kandra’s spikes makes a new personality. Awakening and having a body may or may not help with that. Maybe by the same token, a big nicrosil spike used on a spren could sprout a soul with proper coaxing.
 

Also, H-Duralumin does store Identity too. You could consider cloning someone. But hey, if not that, then good old copper spikes are the way to go. 

 

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Mistchemist16 said:

The question was clearly about using Breaths and there is no reference to any other Investiture

And I was talking about "(talks about systems needing rigged up to work on different planets)". This seems to clarify what Brandon was meaning with "jumping through some hoops to Awaken".

2 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

The “own soul” part also logically refers to the fact that non Nalthsians don’t have Breath naturally.

No, this is about Nightblood and Returned who need to feed on Investiture of any kind, if not, they will consume a soul. Everyone has a soul.

Spoiler

Questioner

If someone—Vasher says that Nightblood would kill him, is that just because he has this one deific Breath? Would it kill an ordinary person, like a drab?

Brandon Sanderson

It would suck the Breath from anybody, and if they were unable to feed it he would feed on their soul.

Questioner

So they would die?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Anyone wielding Nightblood, he will suck their soul. If for too long, he will eventually—if you draw him—will suck your soul.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

Spoiler

Questioner

In the last panel we talked a lot about people from different planets using magic systems on other planets, one of the things I've been thinking about, we've been thinking about, talking about Breath, and people being born with Breath, is that something specific to Nalthis or do, technically, other people on other planets have a Breath as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question and that is a Nalthian thing. Now, everyone in the cosmere to an extent has Investiture, the Nalthian Breath is part what everyone has and then a little extra, plus the ability to share it around. So a person who gives up their Breath on Nalthis is actually going below what a normal person has. But a normal person on Nalthis has more than somebody-- So if you were for instance to pick a world like Sixth of the Dusk, where there's not a Shard in residence, and you compared them to a Nalthian, Nalthian has an Investiture advantage over them. When they've given up their Breath, they have an Investiture disadvantage.

Bystander

So we're not Drabs?

Brandon Sanderson

So we're not Drabs. That's exactly it. We're not Drabs.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

 

5 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

That Investiture that even Drabs retain is the Spark of Life.

No. It's a soul. Breaths are not a soul, they stick to a soul. That's Shard's investiture sticking to a soul. The nature of Endowment makes this investiture something that can be shared and give away.

Spoiler

Questioner

I've got a list of various Cosmere bits of metal and I was wondering if you would rank them from like one to ten or just easy to difficult on how hard it would be to steelpush on them. So with one being just a regular coin, ten being like when the Lord Ruler was moving bits of glass on the floor, so like metal inside a person's body.

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on how strong the Investiture in them is.

[...]

Questioner

That was my next one, or no, sorry not a drab. A lifeless?

Brandon Sanderson

A Lifeless, yeah. Even... yeah. Lifeless are kind of weird because they've had their soul leave but then they've had a replacement stuck in in the form of Breath which leaves them in a very weird position compared to a drab which has had part of their Investiture ripped away but a majority remains, so, anyways. I'm going to give you one more. Pick your favorite.

[...]

Salt Lake City signing (March 29, 2014)

And here is more, non-Nalthian confirmed to be able to use Breath. They have more investiture than a Drab. This is because the Soul is a component of the soul + investiture of the Shard that invests the world. On Scadrial this is Ruin's and Preservation's investiture. On Nalthis it's Endowment, but here is a trick, Nalthians can use that part of investiture as a Breaths. 

Spoiler

NutiketAiel (paraphrased)

If a native of Sel or another Shardworld traveled to Nalthis, would they be a drab?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, they would not be a drab. But, no one would be able to take their Breath.

NutiketAiel (paraphrased)

If such a person died on Nalthis, could they Return?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, they cannot Return.

NutiketAiel (paraphrased)

If such a person received breath, could they use BioChroma?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes

A Memory of Light Dayton Signing (Jan. 10, 2013)

And another WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

On all the cosmere worlds, it seem as if-- do all the humans have what you call innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's see...

*thinks*

I believe that they all do. I don't think that you've seen anyone without innate Investiture yet.

Questioner

Because when they don't have Breath anymore, they would get Drabs, and those don't have innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

They don't have innate Investiture. And on Scadrial they have the pieces of Ruin and Preservation in them. And they do have it on Roshar.

Questioner

Which Shard is that?

Brandon Sanderson

You'll have to read and find out. *gives card*

So yes, I don't think you've seen any worlds where they don't.

Words of Radiance San Francisco signing (March 6, 2014)

Quote

Innate Investiture is a term used to refer to added Investiture to a being from birth, not including the natural Investiture that makes up the soul. Examples of Innate Investiture include the fragment of Preservation in all Scadrians, or BioChromatic Breath on Nalthis.

That's what Breath is. It's an additional investiture that makes up their soul. Only Nalthians can utilize it, because of the nature of Endowment. But giving up their Breath doesn't make them soulless.

7 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

Kinda like how changing an kandra’s spikes makes a new personality.

This is the first time I'm hearing about it. Source?

9 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

Also, H-Duralumin does store Identity too. You could consider cloning someone. But hey, if not that, then good old copper spikes are the way to go. 

It's not cloning when the original loses his identity.

[Mistchemist16]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

And I was talking about "(talks about systems needing rigged up to work on different planets)". This seems to clarify what Brandon was meaning with "jumping through some hoops to Awaken".

Let me clarify. You’re suggesting that you need to convert a planet’s native Investiture to use a foreign magic system or maybe use Connection hacks. So a non Nalthsian can Awaken on Nalthis, but would need to make Breaths using the power of the local planet. Still a bit of a stretch since the question asked if anyone could Awaken after getting Breaths and the Breaths themselves should theoretically work. But I won’t say it’s impossible Brandon was answering with specifically off world awakening in mind. However, you also can’t dismiss my interpretation that an off world we having Breaths would only get the Heightenings without further tinkering.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

No, this is about Nightblood and Returned who need to feed on Investiture of any kind, if not, they will consume a soul. Everyone has a soul.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

If someone—Vasher says that Nightblood would kill him, is that just because he has this one deific Breath? Would it kill an ordinary person, like a drab?

Brandon Sanderson

It would suck the Breath from anybody, and if they were unable to feed it he would feed on their soul.

Questioner

So they would die?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Anyone wielding Nightblood, he will suck their soul. If for too long, he will eventually—if you draw him—will suck your soul.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

In the last panel we talked a lot about people from different planets using magic systems on other planets, one of the things I've been thinking about, we've been thinking about, talking about Breath, and people being born with Breath, is that something specific to Nalthis or do, technically, other people on other planets have a Breath as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question and that is a Nalthian thing. Now, everyone in the cosmere to an extent has Investiture, the Nalthian Breath is part what everyone has and then a little extra, plus the ability to share it around. So a person who gives up their Breath on Nalthis is actually going below what a normal person has. But a normal person on Nalthis has more than somebody-- So if you were for instance to pick a world like Sixth of the Dusk, where there's not a Shard in residence, and you compared them to a Nalthian, Nalthian has an Investiture advantage over them. When they've given up their Breath, they have an Investiture disadvantage.

Bystander

So we're not Drabs?

Brandon Sanderson

So we're not Drabs. That's exactly it. We're not Drabs.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

 

I never said that Nalthsians were the only ones with souls nor that Breaths were souls. I meant that off worlders don’t have any Breaths on their own soul and thus nothing to Awaken with. The extra Investiture that makes up a Breath is not part of a worldhopper’s soul

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

 

No. It's a soul. Breaths are not a soul, they stick to a soul. That's Shard's investiture sticking to a soul. The nature of Endowment makes this investiture something that can be shared and give away.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

I've got a list of various Cosmere bits of metal and I was wondering if you would rank them from like one to ten or just easy to difficult on how hard it would be to steelpush on them. So with one being just a regular coin, ten being like when the Lord Ruler was moving bits of glass on the floor, so like metal inside a person's body.

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on how strong the Investiture in them is.

[...]

Questioner

That was my next one, or no, sorry not a drab. A lifeless?

Brandon Sanderson

A Lifeless, yeah. Even... yeah. Lifeless are kind of weird because they've had their soul leave but then they've had a replacement stuck in in the form of Breath which leaves them in a very weird position compared to a drab which has had part of their Investiture ripped away but a majority remains, so, anyways. I'm going to give you one more. Pick your favorite.

[...]

Salt Lake City signing (March 29, 2014)

And here is more, non-Nalthian confirmed to be able to use Breath. They have more investiture than a Drab. This is because the Soul is a component of the soul + investiture of the Shard that invests the world. On Scadrial this is Ruin's and Preservation's investiture. On Nalthis it's Endowment, but here is a trick, Nalthians can use that part of investiture as a Breaths. 

  Reveal hidden contents

NutiketAiel (paraphrased)

If a native of Sel or another Shardworld traveled to Nalthis, would they be a drab?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, they would not be a drab. But, no one would be able to take their Breath.

NutiketAiel (paraphrased)

If such a person died on Nalthis, could they Return?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, they cannot Return.

NutiketAiel (paraphrased)

If such a person received breath, could they use BioChroma?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes

A Memory of Light Dayton Signing (Jan. 10, 2013)

And another WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

On all the cosmere worlds, it seem as if-- do all the humans have what you call innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's see...

*thinks*

I believe that they all do. I don't think that you've seen anyone without innate Investiture yet.

Questioner

Because when they don't have Breath anymore, they would get Drabs, and those don't have innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

They don't have innate Investiture. And on Scadrial they have the pieces of Ruin and Preservation in them. And they do have it on Roshar.

Questioner

Which Shard is that?

Brandon Sanderson

You'll have to read and find out. *gives card*

So yes, I don't think you've seen any worlds where they don't.

Words of Radiance San Francisco signing (March 6, 2014)

That's what Breath is. It's an additional investiture that makes up their soul. Only Nalthians can utilize it, because of the nature of Endowment. But giving up their Breath doesn't make them soulless.

Depends on how you define soul. My interpretation is that Cosmere souls are the Spiritual aspect of living creatures. This aspect takes the form of Investiture. It is this basic Investiture that even Drabs have, indecent of Innate Investiture like Breaths. By contrast, a Lifeless uses manipulated Investiture as a substitute for the soul. But  the soul is still made of Investiture, even if Investiture itself can do other things. All souls are Investiture, but not all Investiture is a soul. And to clarify one more thing, no, the Beyond does not prove that soul exists outside of Investiture. It’s the mind or Cognitive aspect that gets pulled to the Beyond. There is no proof that a soul exists outside of the three aspects: Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

This is the first time I'm hearing about it. Source?

midwestredditor

How are there kandra and koloss? Kandra especially, since they did their "mass suicide" thing at the end of the original trilogy.

Brandon Sanderson

The nice thing about the kandra for me in the narrative was that, though removing their spikes turns them feral, you can always stick those spikes back in. TenSoon feared that this was the end of his people, and it could have been, if those spikes hadn't gone back in quickly. As it was, there were costs. Time spent without spikes causes a kandra's memories to deteriorate, and some that were left a relatively long time were essentially reborn as new people. But the race survived, even if it is unlikely that their numbers will be added to.

Brandon Sanderson

Did TenSoon survive, then (as the TenSoon who experienced growth under Vin)?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, though he did lose some things.

/r/Fantasy_Bookclub Alloy of Law Q&A (Jan. 20, 2012)

I forgot the part where it only happens after the spikes are gone for a long time, but this is where I got the idea. Either way, I’d say that my “spark of life” idea was kinda similar to trying to make a sapient Lifeless. You get Investiture coded to creat life and then a mind should form, though one made via the Investiture and not the original person. If anything, capturing the “spark of life” might even be more effective than a Lifeless by being optimized to sprout personality. At least, that how I assume souls form in the Cosmere

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

It's not cloning when the original loses his identity.

There are tricks to duplicate Identity, including the possibility of Aluminum compounding. More steps and limits, but technically possible. 

Edit: Realized that you could argue that all Investiture was made from Adonalsium’s soul. Which would mean all Investiture is soul stuff, but some of it is God’s soul.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Mistchemist16

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

Let me clarify. You’re suggesting that you need to convert a planet’s native Investiture to use a foreign magic system or maybe use Connection hacks. So a non Nalthsian can Awaken on Nalthis, but would need to make Breaths using the power of the local planet. Still a bit of a stretch since the question asked if anyone could Awaken after getting Breaths and the Breaths themselves should theoretically work. But I won’t say it’s impossible Brandon was answering with specifically off world awakening in mind. However, you also can’t dismiss my interpretation that an off world we having Breaths would only get the Heightenings without further tinkering.

No. I don't think so. What I wanted to tell, what this WoB is talking about, is that non-Nalthian can use Awakening if he gets Breaths from Nalthis, but if he doesn't he still can use Awakening IF he converts some investiture (like Stormlight, or innate investiture) into Breaths - which is possible, and told many times in WoBs. I think this is what Brandon was talking about (it's a paraphrased WoB, so it might not be word by word as it was told by Brandon), because of the statement in brackets clarifying what Brandon was talking about, and I give you also a WoBs to support it. I might be wrong, but this seems to fit with many other WoBs I presented to you. Brandon often talks about how any investiture can be used to Awaken. I think we need clarification from Brandon on this one, but I'm pretty sure this was the case. The nature of Endowment is giving Breaths without any strings attached (Brandon's words), Awakening is about giving - as long as you have Breaths you can give, Endow, something with them. The same way hemalurgy can be used by everyone in Cosmere, because Ruin cares only about entropy, Endowment only cares about pure gifts.

12 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

I never said that Nalthsians were the only ones with souls nor that Breaths were souls. I meant that off worlders don’t have any Breaths on their own soul and thus nothing to Awaken with. The extra Investiture that makes up a Breath is not part of a worldhopper’s soul

They do. What Scadrians have, because of Ruin's and Preservation's part in them, would be called Breaths on Nalthis (supported by WoB posted previously), but they can't use it like Nalthians can. 

What soul is composed of is the soul and additional innate investiture, sticking to it. Any person that comes from a Shared-invested world has that innate investiture as a part of their soul. This innate investiture could be converted into Breaths and used as Breaths if they know how to - nobody knows that yet. Nalthians have a bit more than for example Scadrials, but Scadrians still are significantly invested. Look again at the WoBs I posted. Nightblood will feed on both innate investiture and souls.

12 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

Depends on how you define soul. My interpretation is that Cosmere souls are the Spiritual aspect of living creatures. This aspect takes the form of Investiture. It is this basic Investiture that even Drabs have, indecent of Innate Investiture like Breaths. By contrast, a Lifeless uses manipulated Investiture as a substitute for the soul. But  the soul is still made of Investiture, even if Investiture itself can do other things. All souls are Investiture, but not all Investiture is a soul. And to clarify one more thing, no, the Beyond does not prove that soul exists outside of Investiture. It’s the mind or Cognitive aspect that gets pulled to the Beyond. There is no proof that a soul exists outside of the three aspects: Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual.

I don't know why you're talking about it. I'm not denying that the soul exists, or that not every investiture is a soul. We don't have to define what the soul is. We don't know, people in Cosmere might have different interpretations etc. Soul is an investiture, an spiritual part of . That's what matters. From Coppermind: "Everything in the cosmere has a Spiritual aspect (even objects), a soul, which represents the idealized form or concept upon which their existence is based. Among sentient creatures, this soul is sometimes described as a spiritweb." Soul is made of investiture, connections, identity, fortune, spiritual DNA etc. I use the words soul and spiritweb with the same meaning.

Spoiler

dark-winter-knight

What is the difference between a person's Spiritweb and their spiritual DNA? Is there a difference?

Brandon Sanderson

Soul, generally used in the cosmere, is a spiritual or philosophical term. It refers to the part of a person that continues to exist after death, or to the "being" of the person in a philosophical term.

A Spiritweb is a measurable, quantifiable thing in the cosmere. (Granted, it's not easy to do either to one, but it can be done.) It is a scientific term, though because the cosmere hasn't reached modern scientific understandings yet, there is a lot of overlap between science, philosophy, and spirituality.

This way, acknowledging that a person has a Spiritweb does not require an atheist/humanist to affirm religious ideas or concepts--like acknowledging that the Vessels/Shards exist does not require also affirming that a capital G God exists.

The separation of the two is necessary to allow people like Jasnah to not be undermined by the text. It wouldn't be right of me to work for having representatives of viewpoints contrary to my own if the very foundation of the magic systems and physics proved them wrong.

So, in short, you can measure a Spiritweb. Whether a person actually has a soul or not (even in the cosmere) is subject to your own personal philosophy on the idea. Even ghosts and other persisting personalities after death, like certain individuals who shall remain unnamed, have a very real and rational magic system explanation for their existence.

aravar27

Is a Cognitive Shadow essentially Investiture filling in the molded pattern of a Spiritweb to the point where it resembles the initial person?

I'm interested in the implications with respect to personal identity--the "soul" would be one of the competing answers for the question "what am I," but some argue for psychological continuity and others for biological continuity. A Cognitive Shadow seems like it might better fit the Psychological Criterion, since it seems like Investiture replaces the biological body as the source of living and experiencing things.

Brandon Sanderson

You're getting into things that are subject to debate among people in the cosmere. Most shadows would insist that they're the same person. Others would dispute this, saying they're essentially a spren--a bit of the power that came alive like you said, taking on the personality of the person when the person themselves died.

BipedSnowman

Like uploading a brain to a computer. Made of Investiture.

Brandon Sanderson

A fitting analogy.

Aurora_Fatalis

Does it matter what kind of power it was that filled the gaps? Like, if you were a normal human and made a Cognitive Shadow fueled by AonDor, would you be more able to "possess" a modern computer than if you were made a Cognitive Shadow by - say - Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

This can matter. Shades from Threnody, for example, work differently from Returned, who are different from Heralds. But all are Shadows.

General Reddit 2019 (Nov. 27, 2019)

The average person in Cosmere, which would be somebody from a non-invested world, like First of the Sun, like WoB in my previous post was talking about, is less invested than Nalthian or Scadrian, but more invested than Drab. This suggests that Breaths are part of Nalthians soul/spiritweb, and even in Warbreaker it was also told a few times (especially in annotations, that having their own Breath is important, and people without them are lacking part of themself, WoBs are also mentioning this).

12 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

I forgot the part where it only happens after the spikes are gone for a long time, but this is where I got the idea.

So changing spikes doesn't change Kandra's personality, TenSoon was wearing OreSur's spikes after all.

12 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

Either way, I’d say that my “spark of life” idea was kinda similar to trying to make a sapient Lifeless. You get Investiture coded to creat life and then a mind should form, though one made via the Investiture and not the original person. If anything, capturing the “spark of life” might even be more effective than a Lifeless by being optimized to sprout personality. At least, that how I assume souls form in the Cosmere

You can have that idea, that's ok. I don't think this is the case. Enough investiture on its own will develop sentience. So I believe no coding or spark of life is needed, you just put enough investiture in something and it will become alive. 

13 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

There are tricks to duplicate Identity, including the possibility of Aluminum compounding. More steps and limits, but technically possible. 

I'm not denying it, but with a simple hemalurgic spike you can't. 

13 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

Edit: Realized that you could argue that all Investiture was made from Adonalsium’s soul. Which would mean all Investiture is soul stuff, but some of it is God’s soul.

I don't know why you think that I think that way. Soul is soul. There is some investiture that sticks to the soul and is part of the soul to some degree but it can be manipulated - like Breaths. Investing people expands their souls, that is how Savantism works, Dawnshards, and even Shards.

[alder24]

@Mistchemist16 I've found the WoB confirming that you can Awaken as soon as you get Breaths:

Spoiler

Questioner

So we know that you can't just have someone-- If someone were to do something similar to Hoid, he can't just pop and go "Oh look, I can now do Allomancy or I can now do Surgebinding". What about Breath? If someone could somebody get Breath-- Maybe not *audio obscured* Could they still get the benefits of--

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, good question... Yes you can, actually. Breath is-- Once it is given to you, it is being keyed to you. Your Identity. So that transfer makes it yours to use however you want.

Questioner

So you could Awaken?

Brandon Sanderson

You could Awaken. If you-- If you were to somehow make it there, you would be able to Awaken. It's the easiest of magic systems to get the magic from, and then to manipulate. Because it has keyed into it Identity.

Questioner

*audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you can take Breath onto another world. In fact, you've seen characters do this.

Questioner

*audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

It would work, yes.

Questioner

*audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it would work the same way.

The only magic that is location-dependent--  The ones who aren't interested in this, just hum to yourself, okay? *laughter* You don't need to know any of this stuff to enjoy the books, okay? I write them so that you could just-- each series can be read independently, and enjoyed. There is behind the scenes stuff, and if you want to dig, it goes pretty deep.

So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn't want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two intents are opposed. And that is the foundation of the magic. Because it's stuck in the Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual Realm (the Spiritual Realm is location-independent; Cognitive Realm is location-dependent), it makes the magic on Sel only work in close proximity to what is keyed through there to the location they're keyed to. This has to do with Identity and Connection. Mostly Connection. So that means you can't do AonDor on another planet, but you can do other magics works anywhere, because they're drawing the magics specifically through either the place, or they're end-neutral, like Breath is, and you don't need any extra power.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 2/6/2023 at 6:00 AM, alder24 said:

 

  Hide contents

dark-winter-knight

What is the difference between a person's Spiritweb and their spiritual DNA? Is there a difference?

Brandon Sanderson

Soul, generally used in the cosmere, is a spiritual or philosophical term. It refers to the part of a person that continues to exist after death, or to the "being" of the person in a philosophical term.

A Spiritweb is a measurable, quantifiable thing in the cosmere. (Granted, it's not easy to do either to one, but it can be done.) It is a scientific term, though because the cosmere hasn't reached modern scientific understandings yet, there is a lot of overlap between science, philosophy, and spirituality.

This way, acknowledging that a person has a Spiritweb does not require an atheist/humanist to affirm religious ideas or concepts--like acknowledging that the Vessels/Shards exist does not require also affirming that a capital G God exists.

The separation of the two is necessary to allow people like Jasnah to not be undermined by the text. It wouldn't be right of me to work for having representatives of viewpoints contrary to my own if the very foundation of the magic systems and physics proved them wrong.

So, in short, you can measure a Spiritweb. Whether a person actually has a soul or not (even in the cosmere) is subject to your own personal philosophy on the idea. Even ghosts and other persisting personalities after death, like certain individuals who shall remain unnamed, have a very real and rational magic system explanation for their existence.

aravar27

Is a Cognitive Shadow essentially Investiture filling in the molded pattern of a Spiritweb to the point where it resembles the initial person?

I'm interested in the implications with respect to personal identity--the "soul" would be one of the competing answers for the question "what am I," but some argue for psychological continuity and others for biological continuity. A Cognitive Shadow seems like it might better fit the Psychological Criterion, since it seems like Investiture replaces the biological body as the source of living and experiencing things.

Brandon Sanderson

You're getting into things that are subject to debate among people in the cosmere. Most shadows would insist that they're the same person. Others would dispute this, saying they're essentially a spren--a bit of the power that came alive like you said, taking on the personality of the person when the person themselves died.

BipedSnowman

Like uploading a brain to a computer. Made of Investiture.

Brandon Sanderson

A fitting analogy.

Aurora_Fatalis

Does it matter what kind of power it was that filled the gaps? Like, if you were a normal human and made a Cognitive Shadow fueled by AonDor, would you be more able to "possess" a modern computer than if you were made a Cognitive Shadow by - say - Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

This can matter. Shades from Threnody, for example, work differently from Returned, who are different from Heralds. But all are Shadows.

General Reddit 2019 (Nov. 27, 2019)

The average person in Cosmere, which would be somebody from a non-invested world, like First of the Sun, like WoB in my previous post was talking about, is less invested than Nalthian or Scadrian, but more invested than Drab. This suggests that Breaths are part of Nalthians soul/spiritweb, and even in Warbreaker it was also told a few times (especially in annotations, that having their own Breath is important, and people without them are lacking part of themself, WoBs are also mentioning this).

First of the Sun is invested - we haven't seen a non-invested planet yet where people have no innate investiture.

[Frustration he/him]

14 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

First of the Sun is invested - we haven't seen a non-invested planet yet where people have no innate investiture.

That's because such a planet doesn't exist.

In order to be alive you need investiture.

[alder24]

Just now, IlstrawberrySeed said:

First of the Sun is invested - we haven't seen a non-invested planet yet where people have no innate investiture.

Read all my posts, there were WoBs about it. What I was talking about is Shard-invested world, First of the Sun is not Shard-invested world as no Shards reside there. There is however investiture that's left after Adonalsium, now associated with all 16 Shards. People from First of the Sun are less invested from Shard-invested worlds, and could be considered a "Cosmere standard" of some sorts. Drabs are less invested that those people, people form Shard-world are more. First WoB is what I was referring to:

Spoiler

Questioner

In the last panel we talked a lot about people from different planets using magic systems on other planets, one of the things I've been thinking about, we've been thinking about, talking about Breath, and people being born with Breath, is that something specific to Nalthis or do, technically, other people on other planets have a Breath as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question and that is a Nalthian thing. Now, everyone in the cosmere to an extent has Investiture, the Nalthian Breath is part what everyone has and then a little extra, plus the ability to share it around. So a person who gives up their Breath on Nalthis is actually going below what a normal person has. But a normal person on Nalthis has more than somebody-- So if you were for instance to pick a world like Sixth of the Dusk, where there's not a Shard in residence, and you compared them to a Nalthian, Nalthian has an Investiture advantage over them. When they've given up their Breath, they have an Investiture disadvantage.

Bystander

So we're not Drabs?

Brandon Sanderson

So we're not Drabs. That's exactly it. We're not Drabs.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

On all the cosmere worlds, it seem as if-- do all the humans have what you call innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's see...

*thinks*

I believe that they all do. I don't think that you've seen anyone without innate Investiture yet.

[...]

Words of Radiance San Francisco signing (March 6, 2014)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

What differentiates a minor Shardworld like First of the Sun?

Brandon Sanderson

The amount of Investiture, and whether there is actually a Shard in presence.

Questioner

I'm assuming there is not one there?

Brandon Sanderson

There is not one there.

Questioner

So it's like a Splintered one from something else?

Brandon Sanderson

No what you'll find is that the worlds were all created with a level of-- a little bit of sort of ambient magic. What you'll find in worlds like that is things like, Shadows for Silence and things like this, the magic, it's not necessarily "people with magic" it's you can interact with nature...

Questioner

So there is inherent Investiture...

Brandon Sanderson

There is inherent investiture in every world created but you are going to see-- You aren't going to find Mistborn on a world like that but what you might find is a way there are magic aspects to the setting. Spren could exist on a world like that but they would be like the minor spren, you wouldn't find Syl, but you would find something like lifespren.

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014)

 

Spoiler

ReadAndFindOut

In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think?

Brandon Sanderson

I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect.

But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.

The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.)

Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there.

That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations.

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn.

But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.)

Oversleep

Wait.

I'm confused.

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?

Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard.

And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun.

But now you're saying it didn't?

If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually?

Could you please clarify all that?

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing.

I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time.

I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers...

Overlord Jebus

You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals).

Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard?

Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story.

Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it.

Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story.

I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one.

Chaos

Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple.

Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though.

General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018)

 

 

 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's because such a planet doesn't exist.

In order to be alive you need investiture.

By non-invested BS implied not extra invested - enough for things to exist like in our world, + cognitive and minimal souls. Nothing not required for life. I'll try to find the WoB, I read it in a thread yesterday.

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Read all my posts, there were WoBs about it. What I was talking about is Shard-invested world, First of the Sun is not Shard-invested world as no Shards reside there. There is however investiture that's left after Adonalsium, now associated with all 16 Shards. People from First of the Sun are less invested from Shard-invested worlds, and could be considered a "Cosmere standard" of some sorts. Drabs are less invested that those people, people form Shard-world are more. First WoB is what I was referring to:

First of the Sun has/had an avatar investing the world like a shard. They have less investiture, hence the disparity. And it has Adalnostic innate, but that doesn't mean there aren't places that don't have Adalnostic innate.

That second WoB is the one I was referencing, but the part you cut off.

Spoiler

Questioner

On all the cosmere worlds, it seem as if-- do all the humans have what you call innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's see...

*thinks*

I believe that they all do. I don't think that you've seen anyone without innate Investiture yet.

Questioner

Because when they don't have Breath anymore, they would get Drabs, and those don't have innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

They don't have innate Investiture. And on Scadrial they have the pieces of Ruin and Preservation in them. And they do have it on Roshar.

Questioner

Which Shard is that?

Brandon Sanderson

You'll have to read and find out. *gives card*

So yes, I don't think you've seen any worlds where they don't.

Words of Radiance San Francisco signing (March 6, 2014)

He says "I believe they all do" once, and twice that we just havent seen worlds like that yet. I read that as Brandon reading "All cosmere worlds" to be the ones we've seen, or at least the ones we've heard of, for his "I believe they all do."

Edited February 25, 2023 by IlstrawberrySeed
Ninja'd reply

[alder24]

25 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

That second WoB is the one I was referencing, but the part you cut off.

Which was answered the same way in the cut version. This WoB was posted by me here earlier.

26 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

First of the Sun has/had an avatar investing the world like a shard. They have less investiture, hence the disparity. And it has Adalnostic innate, but that doesn't mean there aren't places that don't have Adalnostic innate.

Did you read the big WoB? 

Quote

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it.

Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story.

Avatar is not investing a world as a Shard. He is a piece of the Shard, but this Shard doesn't have to invest the world to create Avatar, as his investiture is already there. 

31 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

He says "I believe they all do" once, and twice that we just havent seen worlds like that yet. I read that as Brandon reading "All cosmere worlds" to be the ones we've seen, or at least the ones we've heard of, for his "I believe they all do."

Like I, and WoB posted by me, were talking, there is Adonalsium associated investiture everywhere in Cosmere, but not every world is Shard invested, like First of the Sun, and that's what I was talking about.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Which was answered the same way in the cut version. This WoB was posted by me here earlier.

Did you read the big WoB? 

Avatar is not investing a world as a Shard. He is a piece of the Shard, but this Shard doesn't have to invest the world to create Avatar, as his investiture is already there. 

Like I, and WoB posted by me, were talking, there is Adonalsium associated investiture everywhere in Cosmere, but not every world is Shard invested, like First of the Sun, and that's what I was talking about.

FotS is not the lowest Investiture though. It was invested by Adanalsium, and then shards messed with that investiture, which I read as investing - not neccessarily adding investiture from another system, but from one subsyestem to another. Otherwise there would be no invested abilities. There is Adanalstic Investiture everywhere, but some places are just enough for the spiritweb - no extra for innate investiture.

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

FotS is not the lowest Investiture though. It was invested by Adanalsium, and then shards messed with that investiture, which I read as investing - not neccessarily adding investiture from another system, but from one subsyestem to another. Otherwise there would be no invested abilities. There is Adanalstic Investiture everywhere, but some places are just enough for the spiritweb - no extra for innate investiture.

Every world was invested by Adonalsium! Every world is invested by all 16 Shards because of that. But that is small amount compared to Shard-invested world. The WoB I provided literally dismiss your claim - "Were you "Invested" there? No..." Read it.

There are no invested abilities there, 3rd WoB: "You aren't going to find Mistborn on a world like that but what you might find is a way there are magic aspects to the setting. Spren could exist on a world like that but they would be like the minor spren, you wouldn't find Syl, but you would find something like lifespren.".

[IlstrawberrySeed]

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Every world was invested by Adonalsium! Every world is invested by all 16 Shards because of that. But that is small amount compared to Shard-invested world. The WoB I provided literally dismiss your claim - "Were you "Invested" there? No..." Read it.

There are no invested abilities there, 3rd WoB: "You aren't going to find Mistborn on a world like that but what you might find is a way there are magic aspects to the setting. Spren could exist on a world like that but they would be like the minor spren, you wouldn't find Syl, but you would find something like lifespren.".

What would you call aviar - They have the invested ability to grant things - usually which are invested abilities themself. And that comes from the parasites. It's lower level than that. Spren also grant invested attributes, if not invested abilities, see greatshells and luckspren, or parshendi.

Every world is invested by Adanalsium (except Scadrial, etc, but no need to go there), but that doesn't mean they are uniform. To create matter one must invest. That doesn't mean the matter is invested - all investiture used could be converted to matter. The same thing can be said about energy and souls - A larger asteroid technically has more investiture than a smaller one. All investiture on a planet can be used for mundane function - matter, energy, and souls, and that wouldn't necessarily cause one to have innate investiture.

I have read the WoBs many times. 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Brandon (part)

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun.

Invested in that WoB is refrencing thaking permanent residence in the location. She didn't do that, doesn't mean that people don't have Autonomous Innate investiture seperate from the Adanalstic Innate investiture related to the Ambient investiture from before the shattering. They have innate investiture - but worlds (could?) exist that don't. (Technically he never confirmed there were, only implied it, so there is no cannon yes or no on it, because it's all offscreen at the moment.)

[alder24]

Just now, IlstrawberrySeed said:

What would you call aviar - They have the invested ability to grant things - usually which are invested abilities themself. And that comes from the parasites. It's lower level than that. Spren also grant invested attributes, if not invested abilities, see greatshells and luckspren, or parshendi.

Literally in the quote... "but what you might find is a way there are magic aspects to the setting".

2 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Every world is invested by Adanalsium (except Scadrial, etc, but no need to go there)

Scadrial would likely also be invested in some way by every Shard, because it was created in preexisting star system. But likely less then normal.

3 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Every world is invested by Adanalsium (except Scadrial, etc, but no need to go there), but that doesn't mean they are uniform. To create matter one must invest. That doesn't mean the matter is invested - all investiture used could be converted to matter. The same thing can be said about energy and souls - A larger asteroid technically has more investiture than a smaller one. All investiture on a planet can be used for mundane function - matter, energy, and souls, and that wouldn't necessarily cause one to have innate investiture.

No, we're not talking about matter and energy in the system, we are talking about investiture that is there, in the form of investiture, left over from Adonalsium. 

5 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

doesn't mean that people don't have Autonomous Innate investiture seperate from the Adanalstic Innate investiture related to the Ambient investiture from before the shattering. They have innate investiture - but worlds (could?) exist that don't. (Technically he never confirmed there were, only implied it, so there is no cannon yes or no on it, because it's all offscreen at the moment.)

I never claimed that people there don't have innate investiture, they have, because there were left over from Adonalsium, which during Shattering were associated to all 16 Shards equally. As the WoB talks about, Autonomy realized that there is her investiture, and she reached out and shaped it, without adding anything more. This didn't change the amount of investiture in the system, it's still the same and innate investiture is still the same as it used to be.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Literally in the quote... "but what you might find is a way there are magic aspects to the setting".

Scadrial would likely also be invested in some way by every Shard, because it was created in preexisting star system. But likely less then normal.

No, we're not talking about matter and energy in the system, we are talking about investiture that is there, in the form of investiture, left over from Adonalsium. 

I never claimed that people there don't have innate investiture, they have, because there were left over from Adonalsium, which during Shattering were associated to all 16 Shards equally. As the WoB talks about, Autonomy realized that there is her investiture, and she reached out and shaped it, without adding anything more. This didn't change the amount of investiture in the system, it's still the same and innate investiture is still the same as it used to be.

The quote didn't say no invested abilities, it's said no people with magic. There is a difference. The aviar are not people, and have magic abilities. Unless I don't understand the terminology as well as I thought I did, the aviar have invested abilities. Please show me the definitions if I'm using them wrong, such that I might use them correctly. Also do note that I wasn't referencing solar systems, but the scientific definition of system.

You were the person who told me matter and enregy are the same thing, (not just convertable) and extrapolated it to investiture, matter, and energy are the same thing. If we are talking about investiture in a system, an argument relying on alternative states is valid. As far as I understand it, Adonalsium or someone holding the dawnshards, created pre-shattering matter and energy from investiture. Could be totally wrong - Until I read CC-AU I thought that pre-shattering there was only 1 planet with sapient and sentient creatures. I felt incredibly stupid for the next 2.5 minutes. (At which point I was too absorbed in the story.)

In one of my drafts I actually mentioned we agree they have innate investiture - I understand that. We disagree on wether there are/could be worlds that don't have innate investiture. I want to list a few things that I think we agree upon that I have been using, and could have been undermining the discussion if we don't.

• Planets/Solar Systems can have different amounts of "allotted" investiture (not in a shard)
• That is the case pre-shattering
• Investiture is allotted to things, but exists in the spiritual realm even when allotted.
• There are 3 states of the same thing - matter, energy, and investiture.
• Innate investiture is separate from your soul, and one that has a soul doesn't necessarily have innate investiture.

[alder24]

1 minute ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

The quote didn't say no invested abilities, it's said no people with magic.

I was talking about poeple by saying that. People there can't get Aviar's powers even if they eat bugs.

4 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

You were the person who told me matter and enregy are the same thing, (not just convertable) and extrapolated it to investiture, matter, and energy are the same thing.

Welcome to the world of quantum physics. Matter can be Investiture while also being just a matter at the same time. This time we're talking about a pure form of investiture. While it wouldn't be wrong to consider also matter and energy in this, those two doesn't change phrases and remain matter and energy, so what's important is only investiture.

11 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

As far as I understand it, Adonalsium or someone holding the dawnshards, created pre-shattering matter and energy from investiture. Could be totally wrong

We don't know if Adonalsium created the Cosmere. Cosmere Big Bang did happen. Adonalsium however created and invested many worlds (like Roshar) and his investiture was everywhere. Not all investiture was his (Dawnshards/Aethers). 

Spoiler

Questioner

I want to ask how were the Realms created and does their creation have anything to do with Adonalsium and the Shattering?

Brandon Sanderson

So, good question. The Realms predate the Shattering of Adonalsium and are part of the fundamental physics of the cosmere. So they would have been created at the equivalent of the cosmere Big Bang when time was created and things like that.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

 

10 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

• Investiture is allotted to things, but exists in the spiritual realm even when allotted.

Investiture transcends the three realms. 

16 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

• There are 3 states of the same thing - matter, energy, and investiture.

While there are the same thing, they have different forms, which interact under different rules with world. 

17 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

• Innate investiture is separate from your soul, and one that has a soul doesn't necessarily have innate investiture.

I consider innate investiture as a part of a soul. Which doesn't meant you have to have it - drabs doesn't have it.

19 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

In one of my drafts I actually mentioned we agree they have innate investiture - I understand that. We disagree on wether there are/could be worlds that don't have innate investiture. I want to list a few things that I think we agree upon that I have been using, and could have been undermining the discussion if we don't.

I don't truly have an opinion on that. Cosmere is technically a star cluster of 100 stars or so, not the whole universe. Brandon always talks about Cosmere, so we don't know if investiture is present across the whole cosmere (like Dark Matter isn't everywhere), but within Cosmere, investiture is likely everywhere. Its concentration might differ, but it won't significantly increase/decrease innate investiture unless there is a Shard present in a world.

Spoiler

Questioner

Is there a center to the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

There isn't a center in the cosmere... I keep calling it a dwarf galaxy but I think they decided it's a cluster, instead of a dwarf galaxy.

Overlord Jebus

Even a dwarf galaxy is still really big.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, still too big. So we had to call it a cluster. Because we only wanted like what, we came up with 50 or 100 stars? So it's a cluster. Or a really dwarf galaxy.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)